Hating Hillary: The One Thing Left and Right Men Can Agree On

[ismnotwasm]

(*My note: while this article specifies a gender, Hillary hate is by no means exclusive to men)

“It” is Hillary-hate. It is the tendency for people to decide, at regular intervals, that Hillary Clinton is not a mainstream Democrat who’s carved out a groundbreaking career in politics, but a blood-drenched, boner-killing, venom-dripping hellbeast who is out to destroy America.

“They” is more nebulous, and worse: Hillary-hate is often, but not always, the province of men. It is often, but not exclusively, Republican; conservatives launched The Hillary Project to stop her candidacy back in 2013. (“Hillary Clinton—the name alone strikes dread in the heart of freedom loving Americans.”) And it is often, and unacceptably, embraced by otherwise progressive men, who abandon their principles and their common sense in order to trash her, demonize her, and loudly proclaim to anyone who will listen that they Just Don’t Like Her.

You know Hillary-hate. You’ve seen it before: It’s Tucker Carlson proclaiming that “when she comes on television, I involuntarily cross my legs.” It’s Chris Matthews scolding Clinton, when she criticized Bush’s homeland security spending in 2005, by saying that “you look more witchy when you’re doing it like this.” It is sainted progressive icon Jon Stewart getting huge laughs, off a shot of Clinton smiling politely, with the line “that look is where boners go to die.”

And it goes on, and gets worse, until Hillary is not just portrayed as an ugly, mean old lady these dudes don’t want to fuck, but as an actual monster. Hillary-hate is the fact that, while Clinton was grieving the suicide of her friend Vince Foster, Republicans spread rumors that she had seduced and murdered him. Hillary-hate is Maureen Dowd calling Clinton “Godzilla” and “Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction.” Hillary-hate is the not-remotely-subtle implication that Clinton abuses her husband, spread by the New York Post; next to a photo of Clinton with her mouth wide open at a Benghazi hearing, they ran the headline “NO WONDER BILL’S AFRAID.” Hillary-hate is the persistent, bizarre need for major media outlets to go along with Dowd’s calling Clinton the “50-Foot Woman” and to make Clinton look scary by portraying her as superhumanly huge: On the cover of TIME as a rampaging, pantsuited giantess the size of a skyscraper (photographed in the act of stepping on a powerless man, of course) or on the cover of the New York Times Magazine as some sort of Lovecraftian elder God the size of a planet.

http://globalcomment.com/hating-hillary-the-one-thing-left-and-right-men-can-agree-on/

[onehandle]

1. Yeah, but all of the Hillary haters at DU are from the Left.

Right?

[BootinUp]

17. .

[ismnotwasm]

18. Well, I certainly HOPE so

But. You know.

[MADem]

106. I think they PRETEND to be from the left, lots of 'em. nt

[Phlem]

2. Or......

Someone might use critical thinking after taking in all the facts, triangulating to weed out waste, and coming to a conclusion based on the facts.

I care not about her gender but what she will unleash on us all.

Third Way No Way!

Jesus Fuck!

[arcane1]

4. Valid policy disagreements must be labled as "hate" so as to dismiss them in advance.

The only other alternative is to actually discuss the policy differences, and we certainly can't have THAT!

Nope, better to pretend the disagreements are nothing more than thoughtless, irrational expressions of misogynistic "hate" instead. It's the safest, most defensive route to take, so it makes sense to see it at work here.

[ismnotwasm]

9. You don't think Hillary has experienced misogyny disguised as "criticism"?

Interesting.

[arcane1]

13. I said no such thing, and you know it n/t

[ismnotwasm]

14. I was asking for clarification

I apologize if I used poor phrasing.

[arcane1]

23. I think she has indeed experienced sexist-based criticism.

I also think her supporters are sometimes guilty of hiding behind valid criticism by equating it with sexist criticism. Much like the OP tries to link "left men" and "right men".

This "left man" disagrees with many of her policies, but has also stood up for her against bullshit attacks by republicans.

[ismnotwasm]

26. Then you would probably agree with the article

I get criticism--I'm a strong supporter but there are a number of things I have disagreed with her on.

What I notice, more from the right than the left, but from the left as well, is a visceral objection, as well as a need to twist any positives into conspiracy flavored bullshit. When it goes all out, the misogyny pops right up.

[arcane1]

64. I'm in much more agreement with the content than the headline n/t

[ismnotwasm]

72. Yeah the headline is misleading when I think about it

You're right

[arcane1]

80. There is broad-brushing coming from every direction, even the directions we each favor.

We all have one hell of an "interesting" year to look forward to!

[ismnotwasm]

130. That's for sure

[Logical]

51. Many whine about sexism but many Hillary haters love warren! Explain that! Nt

[Fuddnik]

109. Oooops.......

Can cognitive dissonance cause an earthquake?

[Buzz cook]

118. The hate for Clinton on the left goes way back.

At least as far as the 92 election. If you remember that's a time when the vast majority of people right or left still got the majority of their information from the main stream media and considered them a reliable source.

So for her first few years in the national spot light Hillary Clinton was described by David Brooks and his ilk. I'm of the opinion that many on the left internalized those memes.

Many on the left believed that Bill Clinton was a right wing, small time, corrupt, Southern crook, that cheated away the nomination from "real" liberals such as Paul Tsongas. This even though the policy positions on all the candidates were pretty much the same.

Oh and at that time Bob Kerry of Nebraska was considered a real heartland liberal, so you can see the difference between what we were told and what reality was like.

That what started the left disaffection with Hillary and it was based on inside to beltway snippery.

It then devolved into Clinton rules journalism. Something that has risen from the dead like a zombie lie.
The left at that time didn't have the infrastructure to push back. They might not have even if they could because along came 1994 and the right wing revolution.
Both Clinton's were the designated scape goats for a systtemic failure by the party and liberals.

I think of it as a dysfunctional family in which the abuser picks on only one child; eventually the other family members blame the victim. The family begins to think if only the victim wasn't there the abuse would stop. So if only the Clintons were out of the picture the media would return to being fair to both sides and the right would go back to being fuddy duddy fiscal conservatives and not ideological terrorists.

That exhibited itself in election 2000 where centrist Gore was pitted against centrist Bradley. The MSM let it be known that Bradley was the "real" liberal while Gore was a lying, somewhat crazed, self promoter, etc. and so on. Sadly many on the left bought that as well, even though by then we could prove that the media were whores in real time.

It happened again in 2008 when a little known dino was hailed as the "real" liberal by the media because of a centrist speech he had given at the 2004 convention. Once again if one were to explore the rhetoric and the records of the democratic candidates there wasn't much separating them.

Now contrast that to Warren who started as a little known functionary in an area that wasn't covered much by the media. She was able to garner nation wide support in a democratic/liberal system that didn't exist in the 90s, before she got because of that support she was able to get her seat in the senate. In short she is a winner and everyone lves a winner. But she is a winner in good part because of the reaction to the mal treatment of Hillary Clinton.

So people on the left like Warren because she didn't have to go through the meat grinder and hate Clinton because she did. And that hate often exhibits itself as sexism, because it's easy.

Sorry to tell you this, but to many people who call themselves leftist, if they dislike a person, they think it's OK to use any form of demeaning language they care to.

So read this fom the start. http://dailyhowler.com/archives_98.shtml
Read "Fools for Scandal" Lyons
http://www.amazon.com/Fools-Scandal-Media-Invented-Whitewater/dp/1879957523
And read "The Hunting of the President" Conason Lyons
http://www.amazon.com/Hunting-President-Ten-Year-Campaign-Destroy/dp/0312273193/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1448352132&sr=1-1&keywords=the+hunting+of+the+president

[mcar]

123. Excellent analysis!

Conason and Lyons have done a masterful job revealing all of this. They should be required reading for every Democrat and anyone on the left.

[Warren DeMontague]

144. I do. But I also see attempts to shut down any criticism of HRC with "misogynist man Hillary-hate!"

I mean, you basically accuse me of doing that in this thread, and I would challenge you to find one single thing I've EVER said about Hillary Clinton which could objectively be categorized as "misogynist".

[JDPriestly]

151. I'm a woman, 72 years old, and I think that Hillary is a mediocre politician and a conservative.

I've voted Democratic all my life. Hillary is not progressive enough for me.

Her stances on the minimum wage, on raising the cap on payroll taxes, on foreign policy, on family leave, on free college, on child care, on just about every issue are too far to the right for me.

I'm voting for Bernie or no one for president. I'll vote for every other Democrat on the ticket, not for Hillary.

[Major Hogwash]

24. *Mic drop*

You should add that to the end of your post.

I agree with you, this election is not about gender specific candidates.
The Republicans don't even believe that.

[Doctor_J]

68. I dislike conservatives of all genders and parties

It makes the fan club feel better to blame dislike for Mrs Clinton on her gender instead of her conservative politics.

[ismnotwasm]

3. I also like these paragraphs

None of us wants to hash out the “BernieBros” problem again — in short, they’re real, and they’re not spectacular — but their common line that Hillary Clinton is “Reagan with a vagina,” to quote the nightmarish comment section of this fine Kathleen Geier piece, or the second coming of Margaret Thatcher, to quote roughly every lazy comparison-maker on the Internet (they’re both women, so they must be identical, I guess?) is in fact wrong.

Hillary Clinton has a liberal record. While in the Senate with her purported opposite Bernie Sanders, they voted the same way 93% of the time. She was rated as more liberal than 85% of her fellow Senators; in fact, despite the narrative in ’08 that Obama was the only liberal choice (I backed him that year, and I’m glad I did) she is slightly to the left of Obama, who stands at 82%. This isn’t to say that I have never disagreed with her, or that I won’t disagree with her in the future, or that Sanders isn’t to her left on economics. It is simply to say that the “Clinton = secret conservative” narrative is not grounded in fact, including the glaringly obvious fact that actual conservatives hate her. Maybe Clinton just pissed in their cornflakes one fine morning, but I’m betting it’s because she’s not conservative.

[Warren DeMontague]

5. Maybe that line would sell better before the boilerplate Neocon speech she gave a few days ago.

Everything from more war to the Patriot Act Part II.

[ismnotwasm]

10. You just hush

Silly

[JonLeibowitz]

28. Ah, an insightful, measured, policy-focused response. We thank you. n/t

[ismnotwasm]

30. Who is this "we" of whom you speak?

[JonLeibowitz]

31. The internet masses.

I mean, misogynists. Oops!

[ismnotwasm]

37. Tch.

Okey dokey.

[Warren DeMontague]

45. Nah, that's not silly.

This is silly.

[ismnotwasm]

50. No you jumping on a thread addressing sexism is silly.

True to form though

[Warren DeMontague]

54. It's a thread about Hillary Clinton, in GD-P.

And it's making assertions about gendered "hillary hate". I neither hate Hillary, nor could I give a flying fuck about her gender, but the meme obviously being pushed that the only reason anyone (the left and the right, exactly the same, derp) isn't supporting her is "sexism" ........is flat-out bullshit.

You made an assertion about "her liberal record", which was the specific thing I was responding to, Chief.

[ismnotwasm]

55. Now now

It's okay..

You should actually read the article

[Warren DeMontague]

58. I did.

So should you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=843338

[ismnotwasm]

60. I did

[BainsBane]

41. Why don't you tell us what was so neocon about it?

[Warren DeMontague]

48. Show me where I "lied about my age", first.

I actually thought her speech contained some cogent foreign policy analysis, but calling for additional open-ended war and another AUMF is undoubtedly neocon.

Using "terra terra terra" as an excuse to try to get top items from the Xmas list of law enforcement, like a "backdoor" into everyone's cell phone? Pah. That's straight from the Bush/Cheney/Ashcroft playbook.

[BainsBane]

77. Suggesting the President go to congress for authorization is neoconservative?

What do you think neocon means? Was Napoleon a neocon? LBJ, Wilson, FDR? How about Kissinger or the Cold War presidents?

I remember some time ago discussing something or another with you, and the timing of college came up. It was clear you started college before me, but not by a whole lot. And given that I started college at 16, that means you have to be older than you indicated in your own poll. Also, a time after that you made some sort of fudge on your age in a poll, I confronted you on it, and you responded sheepishly like you knew you had been caught.

Also, the Grateful Dead. If that doesn't date you, nothing does.

[Warren DeMontague]

79. eh, believe what you want. You think "I hit the wrong button" was me being "sheepish"

Not only do you not know how old I am, you vastly misjudge the things I actually give a shit about.



I started going to shows in the mid-80s. I happen to think the 89-91 era is one of their best.

Look closely, you can see me in the crowd. All 50 thousand of me.

[BainsBane]

88. Whatever. Answer the question about neoconservatives.

[Warren DeMontague]

115. I did.

"neocon" is a subjective label, just as much as "hawkish" is. Downthread you acknowledge she's hawkish, so apparently you're bent out of shape about "neocon".

She admittedly gave a very pro-war speech the other day, I don't even have a huge problem with that, on all points; and like I said, she made some pretty cogent foreign policy observations. However, I do object to low-brow pandering to the lowest common denominator around "terror" and 9-11, which she has done in overdrive since the Paris attacks; trying to argue that having ties to Wall St. was "because New York was attacked" was just painfully laughable, and then turning around to immediately use Paris as an excuse to stump for more "extraordinary tools" like demanding silicon valley give out all-purpose backdoors to their encryption-

we've been sold that bill of goods before, remember?

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2014/10/patriot-act-warrants-used-more-drugs-terrorism

you can call it what the fuck you want, it reminds me of the Previous administration. It's the classic Dubya M.O.

[BainsBane]

136. The clear intent is to present her as like the Bush administration

and hawk and neocon are not synonyms, not unless the neocons existed since time immemorial, Alexander the Great to Napoleon, Wilson and FDR, which would render the term meaningless.

It's sad you think ISIS and Saddam are the same. No wonder you are so cavalier in your use of foreign policy terms.

Better put Bernie in your elastic definition of neocon camp too, since he supports the same coalition-based military involvement that Clinton does. He made that clear at the last debate. There wasn't a dove on that stage.

[Warren DeMontague]

143. and I explained why, didn't I?

Like I said, the ridiculous answer about Wall St. ("because New York was attacked&quot and the shameless pandering on encryption were the two egregious examples I pointed out.

All she needed was Tommy Thompson and a color coded terror chart.

[phleshdef]

92. Hillary is fairly hawkish. Those who are supporting her in the primary should just admit it.

She certainly doesn't try to hide it or anything. Its part of what she believes. Either you are cool with that or you aren't. I prefer someone less hawkish but I'll still pull the lever for her next November, without a drop of shame, if thats what it comes down to.

[BainsBane]

99. Yeah, I don't dispute that

But all hawks aren't neocons.

[phleshdef]

102. Well "neocon" use to mean the PNAC crew... but now its become kind of a synonym for hawks.

Like a lot of words, its transcended its original meaning. Most people around here really mean "hawk" when they say neocon. I do agree that lumping her in with the likes of Dick Cheney is way off the mark.

[BainsBane]

107. The intent is to lump her in with PNAC

and I agree it is used as a synonym for hawk but shouldn't be. There are distinct approaches to US foreign policy and the neoconservatives stand in start contrast to the real politik approach. I believe Clinton is closer to the latter. She doesn't imagine she can use the military to remake the world in the image of the US. She talks about specific threats and how to confront them with a combination of diplomatic, military, and soft power.

[MADem]

112. A lot of people here think "progressive" is a synonym for liberal, and they think

Bernie is a liberal, when he has said otherwise.

[mcar]

74. I've been seeing Thatcher mentioned on this board

rather frequently of late. Wonder why....

[NRaleighLiberal]

6. Wow. So "has a different preference" = hate..

[ismnotwasm]

11. I also like this paragraph

I do not object to Hillary-hate because I always agree with Clinton, or because I am committed to unthinking defense of her every word and move. I even acknowledge that there are valid reasons to dislike her: I’m sympathetic to the people of color who’ve pointed out that she can be very bad on race, and that she has a lot of work to do to convince them that she will be responsive to their needs. That’s not Hillary-hate, that’s rational criticism, and it ought to be heard and respected, particularly by Hillary Clinton. What I oppose is Hillary-hate. I oppose misogyny. And I do it because I know, as sure as I know anything, that what men say about Hillary is what they’ll say about other women, what they’ll say about me, if we get too strong for them to control or ignore.

[TheProgressive]

7. I would vote for Elizabeth Warren in a heartbeat...

A Sanders vs Warren primary would be difficult. In this
scenario, I would vote for Sanders and thereby paving the way
for Senator Warren!!!

[frazzled]

82. Please don't say that in this context.

It's pretty much like saying, "But I have a black friend."

[EndElectoral]

150. It's nothing like that.

The onus of the article implies men who oppose Hillary have a gender bias. The previous poster was simply saying he'd vote for Elizabeth Warren.

Why? His point was to show that men are not opposing Hillary because they have a gender bias. They simply may not like her policies.

For many the IWR is a big decision maker on many progressive voters plate. Some, like myself, could never vote for Kerry or Biden for precisely this reason. Why would I vote for Hilary if that was the primary reason I couldn't support either of the other gentlemen?

Elizabeth Warren will and has taken a much stronger prosecutorial approach to Wall Street. She advocates an approach that I agree with regarding the financial sector. I sincerely beleive if she was running she would not be taking gobs of campaign money from the big investment banks.

[Wilms]

8. It's not exactly like that.

I, for instance, had no problem with her being "a blood-drenched, boner-killing, venom-dripping hellbeast who is out to destroy America." But when I read about her eating kittens I kind of lost it.

Just wanted to be sure you know why I won't vote for her. It's nuanced, you see.

[ismnotwasm]

12. Now that's quite clever.

Impressive.

[Wilms]

16. Plus, everyone likes kittens. :D

[ismnotwasm]

19. True!

So pretty!

[MaggieD]

15. Ain't that the truth

[Phlem]

20. OK then, Twilight zone time and I'm out!

This Op was pathetic to begin with and now it's got a fan.

[ismnotwasm]

22. You are hurting my feelings

[ismnotwasm]

21. It's actually a pretty awesome article

I noticed the hair on fire jumping up and down about it in the comments section, but it's quite true.

[reformist2]

25. " a rampaging, pantsuited giantess the size of a skyscraper"...LOL! ...Hey, politics, ain't beanbag.

We've been making fun of politicians since before the country began. It's not going to stop despite somebody crying sexism. (It's not by the way - it's just good old fashioned teasing, which always magnifies & distorts someone's flaws.) If Hillary and her supporters can't take the heat, you're always free to get out of the kitchen.

[ismnotwasm]

27. The topic is misogyny

Not how well one can call names

And thank you for telling me what sexism is and isn't. Sanders supporter I take it?

[MaggieD]

34. +1

[LuvLoogie]

67. Pffft. Hillary has been front and center her whole life.

I suppose phoning it in to the choir once a week might burn a calorie or two.

She has just worked harder, longer, better... Her. Whole. Life.

[kimbutgar]

29. I disagree. I favor Bernie but would vote for Hillary in a heartbeat.

[ismnotwasm]

33. Then you don't have Hillary hate

I have great friends who love, I mean Love Bernie--and don't "hate" Hillary

[ibegurpard]

32. Except no one here is saying stupid shit like that

Hillary has created her own problems with her own record. She can't hide from it or bury it.

[ismnotwasm]

35. Nobody?

Good to know

[MrMickeysMom]

36. I think you need to discern "won't vote for 3rd way" from "hate her"...

I've been saying over and over that it's not hate. It's "I will NOT vote for her". I've even qualified why for years here. That opinion should not be confused with hating her.

If I call her a war monger or dishonest, I'm pretty sure I don't like her for a candidate. That is not hate.

I take offense to your assumption that one is equal to the other. I can't account for assholes like Tucker Carlson. I CAN account for people who say her policies and what she's done to spin what she's previously said to become more desirable after a poll shows it is one way or another as a reason NOT to support her.

I do not trust her. I do not trust people campaigning ideas that include the use double talk, or vague reasoning to make what they say sound exactly like their opponents.

[ismnotwasm]

38. Then you don't have Hillary hate

Legitimately Criticizing her is not the same as rabid CT poo flinging that we see.

[MrMickeysMom]

40. Thanks for your confirmation...

We don't need external validation, we Democrats, but it's nice of your to see that.

Poo flinging aside, I'm not going to even bother to take a balance and weigh said poo on DU. The people on this board who specialize in poo flinging have me distrusting whether they're EVEN DEMOCRATS.

Guess I'll never know, will I?

[ismnotwasm]

49. Well I'll give you a hint

I'm voting for the democratic nominee no matter what

That's a good hint

[MrMickeysMom]

53. Indeed, it is!

[ismnotwasm]

56. You betcha!

[Ed Suspicious]

97. I'm with this person.

[kenn3d]

39. I am a man

I am a man who could never vote for Sec.Clinton, for so many indisputable reasons, not one of which has anything to do with gender. I am a man who would welcome and vote for any righteous woman candidate of intelligence, good will, and honor, who could be a good president even if I didn't agree with her every policy position. And I both regret and apologize for any men who've made you and so many other women (as well as men) feel you must vote for Hillary Clinton despite everything she represents, because she is female.

[ismnotwasm]

44. Oh- OH! There is absolutely NO need to apologize

Because not ONLY is she a women, she is the best candidate by far, so very far.

Please don't you worry bout little ol' me.

[Lilith Rising]

65. Lol

feel you must vote for Hillary Clinton despite everything she represents, because she is female.

Stupid wimminz!

[jeff47]

42. Yeah, there hadn't been enough bullshit smeared on DU recently. (nt)

[ismnotwasm]

47. No?

I thought there had been plenty

[jeff47]

52. You have been busy. (nt)

[ismnotwasm]

62. Not really

Found the article and liked it. Thought I see what kind of reception it got. So far, better than I thought, but not by much

[Lilith Rising]

69. Except it's NOT "bullshit".

Just because 'you' aren't invoking the cankles and pant suits doesn't mean 'you' aren't coming from a sexist place.

Women (hey! just like AA folks!) can tell the difference you know.

[ismnotwasm]

71. That sexism is denied amazes me

Sure people have legitimate concerns, and have every right to them but I get this feeling that some think certain attacks aren't sexist because she's "Hillary Clinton"

[jeff47]

76. Yes, it's utterly impossible for my feeble male brain to understand my own thought processes.

[Lilith Rising]

78. Yep, that's exactly what I said!

I wouldn't be so bold as to qualitate your higher brain functions, but it seems to me that (based on your great number of posts in this forum) you have no such compunction.

Many, many women know sexism when they see it. And that has nothing to do with YOUR thought processes.

[jeff47]

81. Yeah, thoughts like sexism have nothing to do with thoughts.

Here's a thought:

Perhaps slaughtering a million Iraqis isn't made up for by saying "oops". Even when I'm talking about John Kerry.

Perhaps changing one's policies not based on what is right, but on what is currently politically convenient does not make for a good president. Even when I'm talking about Bill Clinton.

Perhaps proposals like a tax credit for people making less than $22k/year demonstrates just how out-of-touch someone is economically. Even when I'm talking about Mitt Romney.

Perhaps invoking your religion to justify denying civil rights to minorities is not acceptable. Even when you're Mike Huckabee.

Perhaps pushing for even more military intervention in Libya, Syria and the rest of the Middle East is a terrible idea. Even when you're John McCain.

Perhaps pushing for "the gold standard" in trade agreements doesn't make the TPP good. Even when you're Barack Obama.

Nah, those thoughts are all clearly rooted in sexism. So deeply rooted that I even have the same exact thoughts when the politicians are men!

[Lilith Rising]

83. Tell me jeff -

where did I say that ANY/ALL criticism of Hillary is rooted in sexism? Now show me where I disagreed with your characterization of the OP as "bullshit".

Or will I just be treated to more misdirection?

[jeff47]

84. Reply 69 and 78

Just because 'you' aren't invoking the cankles and pant suits doesn't mean 'you' aren't coming from a sexist place.

Many, many women know sexism when they see it. And that has nothing to do with YOUR thought processes.

According to these statements, it would appear that I must be a sexist for my criticism. Even when I don't invoke "pantsuits". And it's such deeply-rooted sexism that I can't possibly see it, but women can!

[Lilith Rising]

87. See? Misdirection.

I think it's pretty much accepted that putting the 'half-quote' around the word YOU means that I'm not talking about YOU.

I never said nor implied that YOU are sexist because you have criticisms of HC. I disagreed with you on the basis of your characterization of the OP and that is all.

[jeff47]

89. Quoting your own words is misdirection.

I think it's pretty much accepted that putting the 'half-quote' around the word YOU means that I'm not talking about YOU.

When a sexist asshole says something insulting about women, and then says "I'm not talking about YOU", does that make the insult go away?

When you "punch up", you should not be surprised when some people you did not intend to hit say "ow". That doesn't mean you can't "punch up", just stop pretending you can't cause collateral damage.

I disagreed with you on the basis of your characterization of the OP and that is all.

You mean the one that tries to claim that "left men" are sexist for the criticisms I mentioned above?

Or the OP's comment before the quote that those criticisms are just hatred?

[Lilith Rising]

90. Lol. Okay. Whatever you say.

You (and just so there's no confusion and another 15 derails, when I say "you" here, I'm talking about you) are clearly the superior intellect and you've beaten me soundly.

[jeff47]

94. Hey look! It's another post where you claim to do my thinking for me!

Thanks!

Btw, I'm not out to "beat you soundly". I'm trying to get across that "I meant those other people who I can't identify" is pushing a stereotype. Sure, it's a stereotype against people with privilege, but privilege doesn't make it not a stereotype.

[Ed Suspicious]

100. Agreed.

[Jarqui]

43. Hate: such a strong word and I don't feel that

I really like Bernie. I don't hate Hillary. If Hillary beats Bernie, I'll support her - in a heartbeat. I'd never support the Republicans of this century. Republicans can get me pretty close to feeling hatred - upset me with their ignorance and bigotry but not Hillary.

Exercising my right to freedom of expression to criticize her, that's not hate yet folks around here have accused as if it is. That's criticism of her or her positions. It our democratic duty to speak out if we see something that we think is wrong. When she lies or behaved deceptively or flip-flops, for example, which she has done many, many times, I'm going to call her on it. Again, that's not hate though I do not like her doing it.

I do not think you have to hate one candidate in order to like another. I even like O'Malley. I just like Bernie more.

[ismnotwasm]

46. Then you don't have Hillary hate

I disagree with your "flip-flop analysis, but you gave a respectful and thoughtful answer and one that is your opinion. Nothing wrong with it.

[redstateblues]

66. It will be good to see those who refuse to vote Democratic

gone after Hillary wins the nomination. There are a lot of anti Obama former Naderites in DU pretending to be Democrats. Hopefully at some point they will realize how devastating another Republican president would be. The Nader voters will never accept the part they played in helping elect Bush and Cheney.

[ismnotwasm]

70. Yeah

One thing I am very serious about is getting a Democrat in the White House. Hilliary Is my strong preference, but I'm voting Democrat period. Anything less would be unthinkable to me.

[Warren DeMontague]

57. Also from the article:

And not only is getting mad at Sanders wrong, it’s beside the point.

I'm guessing that's a piece of advice you don't much care for.

[ismnotwasm]

59. I can honestly say I no longer get mad at Sanders.

I care about all such advice, as "mad" is such a negative emotion

[Warren DeMontague]

61. good for you.

It's far more healthy.

[ismnotwasm]

63. Ain't THAT the truth

[ismnotwasm]

75. Have you, gulp, actually SEEN such a creature?

Outside of alternative anime that is...

[MisterP]

85. no! it's the devil's joystick! blocking us from applauding things like the TPP or preparing to send

Last edited Tue Nov 24, 2015, 01:41 AM - Edit history (1)

Lanny Davis to back Facusse's throat-cutting putsch! only the wombyn can appreciate the wisdom of hiring proto-IS because Qaddafi's ouster would be over by Christmas! like Syria!

[ismnotwasm]

104. Oh dear

That's a bit mixed up

[jalan48]

86. Yep-it has absolutely nothing to do with her Wall Street Love.

[phleshdef]

91. I am man. I am on the left. I highly respect Hillary Clinton... still voting for Bernie, sorry.

[ismnotwasm]

110. Good for you!

That is not Hillary hate.

[phleshdef]

95. LOL, what? Bernie does absolutely nothing for my "willy".

For one, I'm straight. For two, if I wasn't, O'Malley would be the only candidate that would do anything for my "willy" in terms of attractiveness. For three, I think Hillary is a nice looking lady and aging quite gracefully.

Thats a ridiculously sexist statement on your behalf.

[jwirr]

96. Hmmm. If she gets into the WH won't Bill Clinton be there

with her? What will he be thinking?

[fbc]

98. Wow, that doesn't sounds like a very strong candidate for a general election.

I dislike Hillary Clinton's center-right stance on economic and defense issues, but I had no idea there was this much hate out there.

That's very worrying for her viability in a general election.

[ismnotwasm]

108. If Democrats don't vote for her

You are exactly right. She can carry enough votes to win the GE, and her polling with Dems is very encouraging however. The undecideds will swing her way in the face of what the Republicans have to offer. Hillary is running very focused on criticizing republican policies--, if she wins the GE, which is likely at this point, she'll shine.

She's also campaigning everywhere, reaching out to diverse communities, forming alliances--this will pay off enourmously in the GE.

[George II]

101. Not to mention so-called "left" women too!

[ismnotwasm]

133. Yeah I added that caveat

The article stresses sexism, but Hillary hate is practically a syndrome

[BenGrimm]

103. Widespread hatred of Hillary will lead to a Rubio victory.

Clinton is virtually guaranteed to be the Democratic nominee. She won't succeed with lukewarm support.

I don't say this to persuade anyone to support or oppose her. This is just what I'm expecting to happen: Lukewarm support for Clinton on the left and vehement disapprobation of her on the right will lead to a Republican victory in the presidential race less than a year from now. Marco Rubio is the most likely Republican nominee.

Rubio's Latino background will help endear him to parts of the U.S. Latino population. This will give the Republican party a much-needed boost in support from Latinos.

I hope I'm wrong about all that, but that's how it looks to me.

[ismnotwasm]

105. I'm pretty sure you're wrong

The right isn't going to like Democrat--but why do you think Rubio? Curious..

[MannyGoldstein]

111. Well duh! If a man doesn't like Hillary,

it can only be misogyny.

Could it be more obvious?

[eridani]

113. What about women who hate endless war and unaccountable banksters?

Carly Fiorina and Maggie Thatcher are both women.

[ismnotwasm]

128. Yes they certainly are and were

So you think Hillary is equivalent to those two? I've been seeing the Thatcher comparison tossed around, and I respectfully suggest that it is a disingenuous comparison made by a possible complete breakdown of understanding historical facts, but, er, Carly Fiona? Why not Sarah Palin while you're at it?

[eridani]

149. Only if your main qualification for POTUS is that she be a woman n/t

[AgingAmerican]

114. Disagree with her = hate

[ismnotwasm]

129. No

Disagreeing is not hate. Hate is hate.

[AgingAmerican]

134. Of course hate is hate, but...

If you disagree with any of her policy positions, one is accused of hating her. It's standard Hill supporter schtick, in lieu of policy discussion.

[Betty Karlson]

116. Oh look: it's yet another instance of the gender card being played.

"If you don't support Clinton, you (a man) are sexist and secretly pro-Republican too, probably."

Can we talk about the issues now? Or would team Clinton prefer the conversation to be: all ovaries all the time?

Give me a break.

[riversedge]

120. I have read many of these vile comments on DU over last few months.

[Betty Karlson]

140. Case in point: the above.

"I have read many of these vile comments on DU over last few months."

First any criticism of Clinton was perceived as illegitimate and sexist attacks. Now even critiqueing her supporters desperate use of the gender card is "vile commentary".

If she is that fragile and vulnerable in the perception of her ardent supporters, and she cannot respond to criticism without invoking her gender and / or 9-11, maybe she is just not cut out to be a good nominee?

[ismnotwasm]

125. Reading the article before commenting is a GOOD thing!

Are you one of the ones who feel Hillary has no sexism directed to her? Or perhaps, that sexism itself doesn't exist?

And I hearby give you a break. Let me know if you need another one

[Betty Karlson]

141. Thanks for the break. No and no.

Clinton has had some sexism directed at her - but that doesn't mean all criticism of her and her positions is sexist.

Sexism exists. So does legitimate criticism. And invoking gender AND 9-11 to avoid a topical discussion on campaign donations and financing reform: hardly qualifies anyone, male or female, as a leader.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

117. I'm a man and a leftist. I don't hate Hillary I just think she's unfit to hold public office.

[ismnotwasm]

126. Hmm

That's a harder one to parse. She's certainly "fit" to hold office

[silenttigersong]

119. It maybe more effective

To name names .I am thinking more specifically of Hillary's male supporters.The prominent names that are male.We all know there are crude people in the world.For you to speak of this reminds me of class order,so be brave start calling out your own.

[ismnotwasm]

132. Wait, Wut?

[William769]

121. Kick & highly recommended!

[Scuba]

122. So both the left and the right hate her, but some still insist that she's electable. Weird.

[ismnotwasm]

127. Oh dear

I think you are the third person to draw that conclusion from the article.

[smiley]

124. I won't be voting for hrs in the primaries...

Because I don't like her politics. I could care less that she is female.
😊

[ismnotwasm]

131. Okey dokey

[Fearless]

135. Complete bull. Sexist labels don't stick. Have fun trying.

[Lans]

137. Don't worry if Bernie doesn't win the primary I would be voting for the first Female President

Jill Stein

[NCTraveler]

138. The sexist rhetoric is blatant and they are becoming more an more comfortable....

with it as the campaign moves forward.

[seabeyond]

146. Yes, it is all fun and play with the sexist comments and slurs and insults, until someone pokes

an eye out.

Then it is not so much fun.

[Romulox]

139. You've been trying to shoe-horn this one in for some time, haven't you?

[ismnotwasm]

148. And you are?

[Flying Squirrel]

142. I agree that misogyny and sexism are alive and well

And that Hillary Hate is a thing.

It doesn't mean I should turn around and support her, ignoring all the things that I dislike about her policy positions and the fact that many of them change with the political wind.

[Chan790]

145. If it makes any difference...

I'd hate Hillary every bit as much if she was male, trans or even genderqueer like me. Her sex/gender makes no difference. I don't think it does for most of her haters on the left. (I can't say the same for her RW critics.)

In some sense, I think that's progress.

[ismnotwasm]

147. Now that I believe

I've noticed your hate. You also, by your own admission hate all of her supporters. Which is cool by me, because we are all invisible internet people as far as interactions go for the most part.

I never get that emotionally involved myself.

[JonathanRackham]

152. She's not my first choice of candidates.

Hate or gender have nothing to do with it. A defense or support based heavily on emotion also discounts my choice of candidates.

[RichVRichV]

153. I think Hillary supporters have a bit of an ego-complex when it comes to Hillary.

I don't really care one way or the other towards her specifically (I'm sure as a person she's perfectly nice). I just don't like centrists who support the corporate power grab of our country. That happens to include Hillary. I dislike the bulk of people in politics for the exact same reason I dislike her. Hillary gets the focus at the moment because she's the one directly in our way of rectifying the situation. If it were another centrists we'd be acting the same way towards them. Gender plays no role in this whatsoever.


What's funny is I take the exact same view of Bernie. There's nothing special about him as a person that makes me vote for him. I support him because he pushes an agenda I firmly believe in to better this country for everyone, and he has the conviction to fight for that agenda regardless of the odds. If another candidate was pushing that same agenda (such as Elizabeth Warren for example) I'd be supporting them equally as well as I do Bernie.


It isn't about hero worship. It isn't about cult of personality. It's about doing what I believe is right for the people living in this country, all the people.

[cherokeeprogressive]

155. I don't hate Hillary Clinton. I don't fucking KNOW her. I just don't want her to be my President.