Neither Bill Nor Hillary Supported Marriage Equality in the 1990's.

[Fearless]

DOMA was signed because Bill Clinton supported it, not because it was a way to protect LGBT people.

It did not protect LGBT people. It marginalized us as second class citizens for two decades. It kept us out of hospitals in lieu of family rights. It kept us from benefiting from equal treatment in asset protection upon death. It denied us Social Security benefits for surviving spouses. It defined marriage as one man and one woman.


He did not support us in the 1990's. Neither did Hillary. DOMA gave every Republican EXACTLY what they wanted. They didn't need an Amendment when the law already supported them.

And Bill Clinton signed it.

And Hillary supported it.

[Agschmid]

1. None of our candidates explicitly supported marriage in that decade.

It sucks to realize you are second class, and we still are in some states.

The work for LGBTQIA rights is no where near done.

If O'Malley did I'm open to a correction here?

[Fearless]

6. Bernie supported us in everything we fought for in the 1990's. And the 1980's... 70's... 60's...etc

[Agschmid]

11. I expected this article to pop up, didn't expect it from you.

I agree Bernie has stood for gay rights but to say he supported marriage is an absolute stretch. He supported civil unions for quite a while and inidcayed he was fine with the system in place in VT (civil unions).

Again that's better than some, but it's not support of marriage.

[Fearless]

15. Again, he supported EVERYTHING WE FOUGHT FOR in those years.

And he has supported marriage equality since we've fought for that as well.

[Agschmid]

20. Ha well I guess some of us were fighting for marriage a bit longer the some?

I mean is that your point? Because basically you date saying once it was politically expedient he went with it?

None of our candidates, including Hillary, live up to what would be ideal on this issue. Again I don't really know O'Malleys story so if I'm wrong I'm open to being corrected here.

[Fearless]

27. You're making things up.

[Agschmid]

37. I'm absolutely not.

But if that's what you think, go with it.

[Chitown Kev]

23. No, he did not.

His vote against DOMA was nice. Both of my Senators at the time voted against DOMA.

Bernie did not support marriage equality at that time.

[Fearless]

28. Again, he supported EVERYTHIGN WE FOUGHT FOR in those years.

[jfern]

48. He never opposed SSM though

Hillary opposed SSM until after a poll showed it had 58% support in 2013.

[Agschmid]

50. All our candidates evolved on this issue.

Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders likes to describe himself as a longtime supporter of marriage equality—in sharp contrast to his Democratic rival Hillary Clinton, who’s still striving to convince her base that she’s on board with LGBT rights. In May, Sanders famously told New York Times columnist Gail Collins that “I’m not evolving when it comes to gay rights. I was there!” Liberal outlets consistently describe Sanders as a pioneer for marriage equality. As proof of his pro-LGBT credentials, Sanders frequently touts his opposition in 1996 to the Defense of Marriage Act, which barred the federal government from recognizing same-sex marriages.
Mark Joseph Stern Mark Joseph Stern

But Sanders is not quite the gay rights visionary his defenders would like us to believe. Sanders did oppose DOMA—but purely on states’ rights grounds. And as recently as 2006, Sanders opposed marriage equality for his adopted home state of Vermont. The senator may have evolved earlier than his primary opponents. But the fact remains that, in the critical early days of the modern marriage equality movement, Sanders was neutral at best and hostile at worst.

Source.

Yes he is better than Hillary here, I agree. But the record isn't blemish free.

[jfern]

52. It's a lie that he was a SSM opponent in 2006

He never said he opposed SSM. He just didn't clearly say he supported it yet.

[Agschmid]

53. And what exactly was he waiting for?

[jfern]

55. There were lots of politicians who hadn't bothered to formally take a position on SSM

He clearly supported civil unions in 2000 and SSM in 2009 when Vermont passed those.

[Agschmid]

56. Oh so he was so for it, that he forgot to mention it. Got it.

[beam me up scottie]

57. If you made the claim that he opposed it you have to back it up.

It's not our job to disprove your claim.

[Agschmid]

58. It's not my job to do anything...

This is an anonymous discussion board.

All our current candidates evolved on the issue, that's the bottom line. It would be great if someone had run who didn't have that history, but we aren't that lucky.

[beam me up scottie]

64. Got it! You made the claim that he opposed same sex marriage and can't back it up.

Maybe I can help, here is the transcript of the video that started that rumour, perhaps you can point out where he said he opposes it:

I was a strong supporter of civil unions, I believe that. I voted against the DOMA bill, I believe that the federal government should not be involved in overturning Massachusetts or any other the state because I think the whole issue of marriage is a state issue.

[Agschmid]

66. I backed it up just fine.

[beam me up scottie]

69. Where? I must have missed it. Did you read the transcript?

[Agschmid]

70. I did. And's its odd, I don't see the word marriage equality anywhere.

... Weird.

[beam me up scottie]

71. What's even more weird is that he never said he opposed it.

So what do you base your claim on again?

[Agschmid]

72. Usually leaders lead. n/t

[beam me up scottie]

73. So you just *know*. Have you always been omniscient?

[Agschmid]

74. The other night it seemed as if you were done with me?

But it appears we have hijacked another thread. At least we are good at something.

[beam me up scottie]

75. No, I challenge lies about Bernie when I can.

And since this is somewhat relevant to the subject in the op it's not really hijacking the thread.

If you don't believe that Bernie supported same sex marriage I have no problem with that, I just have issues with stating it as fact when there is no evidence.

Like you do with the claims about Hillary working for Monsanto.

[Agschmid]

76. Oh boy...

Night.

[beam me up scottie]

77. I'm agreeing with you about Hillary.

I dislike false claims as much as you do because it doesn't help either side.

G'nite.

[Agschmid]

78. I know, thanks.

[jfern]

59. There were lots of other politicians who hadn't taken a position

[Agschmid]

60. Yes, and I fault them for that as well.

What's your point here?

[jfern]

61. My point is that it's a lie that Bernie oopossed SSM in 2006

People wrongly concluded that when he said that SSM should be up to the states. This was when they were trying to pass a federal constitutional ban, and 4 years before the first victory for SSM in any federal court.

[Agschmid]

63. It's not a lie.

He is a leader, if he supported it why didn't he say it, why didn't he lead?

Typically and especially in Senator Sanders case, he talks about what he supports. I'm not trying to paint him as a bigot, HE IS NOT, I am not trying to paint him as a homophobe, HE IS NOT... But when it comes to this issue he didn't say anything at that time.

It is what it is, all our candidates have some level of fault on this one issue.

[beam me up scottie]

65. It is a lie. Where did he say he opposed it?:

I was a strong supporter of civil unions, I believe that. I voted against the DOMA bill, I believe that the federal government should not be involved in overturning Massachusetts or any other the state because I think the whole issue of marriage is a state issue.

[jfern]

67. He didn't have to say he was in favor to not oppose SSM

[Agschmid]

68. Look so if Sanders is such a strong leader why didn't he lead?

Why didn't he say he supported marriage equality? What was he waiting for?

And again because it's fair to say this, Hillary was worse in many ways. But to say he was for equality is odd, since there wasn't a whole lot of proof for a while.

[jfern]

79. That's a different question, but he saying he opposed SSM in 2006 because of that debate is bogus

I don't think he ever said anything to oppose SSM even though we can find no statement clearly in favor of it until 2009.

[Thinkingabout]

8. Very true, we can choose to move on to the future or remain in the past, I like today much better.

[Agschmid]

13. Yup.

I mean the sitting president didn't support marriage equality for a good portion of his term. I look ahead, it's not denial it's knowing that the world is changing and it's for the better.

[Fred Sanders]

2. Know who else changed since the 90's? Elizabeth Warren. "Evolving" is not a bad word, if context

is valued at all.

[Fearless]

3. Change the subject much?

[Fred Sanders]

4. Same subject, better perspective.

[Fearless]

7. Different subject. And you're still wrong.

[MannyGoldstein]

5. But the Clintons fought marriage equality only in order to

advance marriage equality; isn't that today's HillMeme™?

You know, like when people we need to cut Social Security to make it better, we need to blow up Iraq to make it safer, etc.

[LexVegas]

9. You must really hate Obama. nt

[Fearless]

10. I vehemently disagree with his "personal evolution" on LGBT rights. Yes. Emphatically.

I have mentioned this many times before.

[LexVegas]

16. I salute your consistency. nt

[firebrand80]

12. Grow up

Politicians sometimes take positions based on the prevailing winds.

Bernie doesn't?

If not, then it shows that he's not as good of a politician as HRC, which is why he's not going to win the nomination.

[Fearless]

19. Wow! Just wow!

[tblue]

30. "Politicians sometimes take positions based on the prevailing winds. "

That's not okay, for me. Yeah, I know, I need to grow up.

[firebrand80]

31. Then you're likely to always be "holding your nose"

when you vote, especially for President. It's impossible to ascend that high without making compromises along the way.

I'm certain Obama didn't feel good about throwing Rev. Wright under the bus, but it had to be done.

[pinebox]

14. She's a flip flopper!

Says it all.
More of the same old, same old. Flip flopper extraordinaire!
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jun/17/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-change-position-same-sex-marriage/

[Agschmid]

22. On this issues they have all evolved.

[NCTraveler]

17. One of Sanders greates legislative accomplishments was....

blocking a pathway to citizenship for over ten million people. He also voted yea on one of the largest deregulation bills since Regan was in office. You know, the "Enron Loophole Bill." I don't think he would do either again. Just as I think there has been a large societal evolution with respect to the issue you are talking about.

[onehandle]

18. Thanks for the history lesson.

[font size="5"]#45[/font]

[img][/img]

[LettuceSea]

21. One thing that makes me happy is the LGBT vote is far from monolithic

Very independent minded in this primary season. I hope that continues!

[angrychair]

24. Worthless revision of history on HRC's part

Supported DOMA and DADT to help LGBT people from something worse just like farm owners in the rural south used to kidnap people from African nations to keep them from being eaten by lions.
Just trying to help?
The pain, frustration and mental distress caused by DOMA and DADT ruined lives, ruined families and did more to create shame and distrust then anything else could have done. The LGBT community could have successfully campaigned against Constitutional admendments about gay marriage with the support of the WH but the WH choose a different path, one that didn't include the LGBT community as equals.

[Arkansas Granny]

25. In the 1990's I didn't support marriage equality. I do now and

I think that's true of a lot of people. Does that mean that my support for marriage equality now is demeaned because I did not always feel this way?

[Fearless]

29. You were not in a position of power in the 1990's. What you believed doesn't impact this nation.

[Arkansas Granny]

32. And what Hillary believes now will have more impact on the nation

than what she believed 25 years ago. People grow and attitudes change.

[Fearless]

33. You're missing the point of the OP.

The point calls into question her ability to govern.

Human rights is an easy topic to grasp.

You're either for them or against them.

She was against them and is now for them in terms of LGBT rights.

This is a question of extreme judgemental lapse.

She goes with the majority on everything.

She is wrong to do so.

[Arkansas Granny]

36. The point of the OP, as I read it, is that 25 years ago

Hillary had an opinion that you didn't agree with and you won't accept that she had changed her position. Would you rather that she still opposed marriage equality?

[treestar]

35. A position of power in this nation is attained by

getting votes. You can't separate us as a nation from our representatives.

[Fearless]

44. In the face of partisan districting, I disagree fundamentally.

[Agschmid]

42. That was very dismissive.

I think we should appreciate when people are able to grow, and not just dismiss them.

[Fearless]

45. False logic. It was off topic.

[Agschmid]

46. It was about marriage equality...

As is the OP.

About as on topic as you can get.

[Fearless]

47. It was not about the Clintons or DOMA.

It was off topic.

[Agschmid]

49. Just a reminder...

this "Neither Bill Nor Hillary Supported Marriage Equality in the 1990's." is the title of your OP. So yes it didn't really fit the conversation you wanted to have, but it was absolutely on topic.

[Fearless]

51. If you bother to read the post, you'll see what the main idea is.

Keep your reminders to yourself.

[Agschmid]

54. Nah, thanks though.

[Agschmid]

43. I appreciate you sharing that.

I also appreciate your growth on the issue, thank you.

[justhanginon]

26. Neither did I. I am an old geezer and grew up in an age that was much different than todays's in

terms of what societies deemed proper. I did not support many things 20 years ago that I have since changed my mind or evolved on. LGBT rights is just one of them and I am now a strong supporter of those rights. As time goes by we increase our knowledge and perceptions through reading, conversing with others and most importantly listening. I must say this site has been an immeasurable help in that. Hopefully we will then have the ability to see things in different ways and how they affect others. If we are hidebound with our ideas, biases etc. then we are not growing in our personal development or as productive citizens of this country.

[UglyGreed]

34. Puts finger out

tests which way the wind blows and then goes in that direction, Hillary's campaign strategy

[Truprogressive85]

38. memory lane

lets imagine senator in the 60's saying that he wouldn't vote the VRA of 1965 because of the political climate ? yet the VRA still pass because it took guts and made a statement !
the senators wanted to keep disenfranchising black ppl were cowards and so were the house members /VRa passed because LBJ had the cojones to stand up against and do it.

If you are for something and truly believe in don't wait for it to become politically expedient to favor it.

[polichick]

39. Unfortunately, politicians are followers more than leaders.

[Laughing Mirror]

40. Gay Activists Unhappy with Clinton remarks on DOMA

Lots of remarks to read that give a fair sampling of LGBT activist's opinion on this. A few blurbs:

A number of gay rights activists took to Twitter to say Clinton engaged in historic revisionism during her appearance Friday on “The Rachel Maddow Show” when she said DOMA was a means to stop the enactment of a U.S. constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage entirely. Many of those activists also tempered their objections by saying Clinton is generally doing right on LGBT rights during her campaign.

...

David Mixner, a gay rights activist who once supported Bill Clinton before the two had a falling out over “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,” urged LGBT people to reject the explanation of DOMA offered by the Democratic presidential candidate. "The LGBT community should NEVER allow any politican to revise our noble and courageous history for political purposes."

...

Michelangelo Signorile, a gay New York-based activist and author of “It’s Not Over,” said Clinton’s recollection of the events surrounding DOMA at the time is “simply untrue.” But Signorile, who had once been critical of Hillary Clinton for not talking enough about LGBT rights during her 2016 campaign, said Clinton is generally “fine” on the issues now despite this incident.

...

The notion DOMA was passed to stop passage of a Federal Marriage Amendment has been disputed by Hillary Clinton supporter and former Human Rights Campaign chief Elizabeth Birch, who wrote an op-ed saying “there was no real threat” of a constitutional measure in 1996. The Washington Blade has placed a call to the Clinton campaign to see if the candidate stands by the remarks and with the Human Rights Campaign to see whether the organization has any comment about them.

See more at: http://www.washingtonblade.com/2015/10/25/gay-activists-unhappy-with-clinton-remarks-on-doma/#sthash.mF0S3YpY.dpuf

[brooklynite]

41. Neither did President Obama...

...guess we shouldn't have voted for him?

[Chitown Kev]

62. well...in the 90's

PBO actually did support marriage equality

[BlueCheese]

80. I will say that I was disappointed in Clinton's description of what happened around the time of DOMA

I don't remember there being any push for a constitutional amendment at the time. In fairness there was a push later on, and lots of states put laws or amendments on their books, including liberal California as late as 2008. Still, DOMA was egregious and gratuitous, and I wish Bill Clinton would have stood stronger on that, and that Hillary Clinton would not make such rationalizations today.

However, Sanders has wavered himself over the years. In 2006, two years after same sex marriage was legal in Massachusetts, Sanders was quoted as saying that he opposed trying to do the same thing in Vermont. As was reported back then,

Sanders said he opposes the constitutional amendment (to ban same sex marriage). States for years have had authority over marriage laws and that's the way it should remain, he said, noting that Vermont had led the nation in creating the civil unions law granting most of the rights and benefits of marriage to gay and lesbian couples.

He noted that Vermont "led the way," but it was "a very divisive debate." Asked whether Vermont should legalize full marriage rights for same-sex couples, he said: "Not right now, not after what we went through."

Really, very few national Democrats covered themselves in glory on this issue.

http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060607/NEWS/606070302/1003/NEWS02