"I won't vote for Hillary" is the canary in the coal mine

[Fumesucker]

Rather than take the canary laying on its back in the bottom of the cage as a warning that the political atmosphere is getting toxic many Hillary supporters seem to think that berating the canary for insufficient loyalty and showing its privilege is the answer rather than acknowledging the noxious atmosphere that caused the canary to keel over in the first place.

You can harangue DU until your keyboard is reduced to smoking ruin, that might get a few dozen or a few hundred DUers to vote for Hillary but it's not going to change the minds of the millions of others who would normally vote for a Democrat but will most likely just stay home if Hillary is the nominee.

FWIW, that's the very first time I have typed those five words as a sentence on DU.

[EdwardBernays]

1. well.. yes and no

I do think that a Dem will win no matter what based on the way the states have voted the last few years and demographic changes... but... that just makes me think this an an amazing opportunity to vote their conscious for once...

[bowens43]

2. I'm not trying to changres anyones's mind. Vote for ever you want to vote for...

or don't vote if you find the candidate as morally repugnant as I find hillary.

[Lunabell]

3. I won't vote for her in the primaries...

But I'll be damned if I let a rethuglican take office. Hillary is better than any GOPiggie!

[SkyDaddy7]

22. I could not agree more.

BERNIE ALL DAY!

...But if Bernie does not get the nomination I'm not going to pout & stay home because as there many things I disagree with Hillary on it does not even begin to compare to the nightmare if a Republican gets in office especially if they retain control of Congress.

Even if Bernie Sanders is elected he will either have to compromise on some issues maybe not his principals or stand his ground & get nothing done & be one term President. But as soon as he compromises to get a little, if he does, he will make a ton of people screaming spitting mad but our form of governing is based on compromise.

[Andy823]

35. Exactly

The "my way or the highway" way of thinking does NOT work. When you have a divided congress, you have to work together, something that I will agree doesn't work to well with so many republican tea party clowns in office, but the only way to make it work is to vote the obstructionists out of office.

There isn't one republican running for office that is not a thousand times worse than "any" candidate we get after the primaries. The facts are simple, this country can not afford to see a republican in the WH with at least one branch of congress controlled by republicans. We can not afford to see more right wing judges put on the Supreme Court, we can not afford to see health care go back to the way it was, we can not afford to see SS and other programs privatized or done away with.

If people don't wan to vote for the nominee, that's their choice, but when the shit hits the fan, and the country returns to the way it was under George W. Bush, or it could be even worse, then those people have no right to complain about things. Not voting only
for the democratic nominee only helps the republicans,, and that's simply a fact.

[Fuddnik]

45. Why is taking a stand on principle considered pouting?

Sometimes your nose just gets too sore from holding it so long.

[demwing]

62. It's not

Vote your heart, just vote

[840high]

105. I'm not pouting - just

voting my conscience.

[SkyDaddy7]

121. Voting for Bernie in the primary...

over Hillary like I plan to do is voting your conscience...If Hillary wins the nomination & is running against Trump or Cruz or Bush in the general & you stay home that is NOT voting your conscience that is basically the 2000 election all over again! Of course we would like to have Bernie, I would like to have Lessig, because lets be REAL Bernie if POTUS will run into the same BRICK WALL Obama did if he were elected & will have to compromise or be a one term POTUS unless money is removed from politics. However, I am not going to stop voting for every little bit I can get because even though there are things about Hillary that make me see RED you & everyone else here on DU that supports Bernie KNOWS she is lightyears better on many issues than any of those maniacs running for the GOP especially if elected with a GOP congress. YES, she is! She will stand for the rights of my nieces & women in this country & that alone is enough for me to vote for her "if" she is the nominee. To just turn & walk away is NOT voting your conscience it is quitting & wonderful news for the GOP! Seriously, this is a HUGE difference between US Liberals & the FREAKS on the Right they ALWAYS VOTE! ALWAYS! ...And it shows.

[malokvale77]

4. I think you are right.

I hear it all the time.

I don't see any enthusiasm, at all for Hillary Clinton amongst the Democrats where I live.

The Texas Democratic Party has become so lame that many have just lost interest.

Bernie Sanders is starting to get their attention.

[Fuddnik]

47. Likewise in Florida.

All except for Party Hacks like DWS, and our Republican turned Democrat, Chair of the Florida Democratic Party.

[Hepburn]

65. I'm in a solid BLUE section of LA County and I hear Hillary hatred all the time.

Why? IMO because I have a Bernie sticker on my car and people tell me how much they like him -- across the board...men, women, young, old, black, white, Asian, Hispanic. However, I have not had one person say anything nice to me about Hillary, but they do not hesitate to voice extreme dislike for Hillary. The general theme is she cannot be trusted and is a liar. It might be the fact that I have the Bernie sticker...so people think it in-politic to voice Hillary support around me. But...I don't think that is really true because I do hear support for Biden.

Gawd forbid that we nominate Hillary. Hello to Prez Trump...Carson...Bush III -- anyone of the Repukes and we are SCREWED!

[retrowire]

5. I feel this way as well

but after reading Bernie's autobiography Outsider in the White House (Still reading it!) I know that Bernie holds the act of voting itself very sacred.

he fully supports the idea of voting for the lesser of two evils when its necessary. He did it for Bill Clinton in the book and mentioned that even though he disagreed with Bill on many things, his opponent was much worse.

And whenever Bernie lost one of his first attempts in politics, he always prided himself knowing that he got people to talk about the issues or more importantly his campaigns always increased overall voter turnout.

If Bernie loses the general, he himself will vote for Hillary. I'll kick and scream on the way to the ballot box, lash out in anger and frustration and probably insult people and say things I may regret, but I'll probably vote for her. probably. I can't trust myself when I'm mad. lol

[Thor_MN]

10. If Bernie loses the general, he will not be able to vote for Hillary...

Just saying...

[Scuba]

17. WTF? Where did you get such an idea?

[bvf]

19. I think retrowire meant the primary. n/t

[DrBulldog]

6. What good is it to nominate Hillary when ...

... she has no chance in hell in helping the Democrats reclaim Congress? What good is it to elect the first woman to the White House when she would not be able to do one damn thing for four years?

But then there's Bernie who already has the support of 65% of 75,000,000 millennials who are excited by him enough to actually vote, and whose positions on many issues are supported by the vast majority of Americans altogether ... are you getting it, finally, people?

[RiverLover]

7. I met 2 of them yesterday.

A retired couple in Ohio. Both Dems who watch a lot of news. They said if Hillary gets the nom, they aren't voting. They said she's too deceitful. Plus the wife was still disgusted she stayed with Bill after the green dress incident....I think I convinced them of the importance of at least voting Dem down-ticket. I hope so anyways.

Interestingly, the wife was also angry at Bernie for not calling out Hillary during the debate. She said he was too nice to her & it proves he really isn't interested in winning the top spot.

[kelliekat44]

20. The mind is a tragic thing to waste. To be against a woman for staying with her husband...

for "being deceitful" because the media keeps pounding that in your head as everyone in politics has been just as "deceitful." And being angry at there hero for not being hard enough on his opponent really says a lot about the voters.

But right now, I am of the opinion that whatever the outcome...we deserve it.

[dreamnightwind]

94. I agree about the issue in your subject line

That's nothing to blane Hillary for, that choice was hers and hers alone, none of us knows the full context she made it in.

The rest of it seems like fair game, though, trust issues are huge, and I also think Bernie needs to do more to distinguish himself from Hillary, they're far apart but from the debate you wouldn't know it.

[NanceGreggs]

109. Actually, it was a Navy Blue dress.

I only mention that because given all of the publicity around that incident, the late night show monologues about it, the one-liners by stand-up comedians, etc. There were endless references at the time to "the Devil in the Blue Dress" - even "Monica's Blue Dress" Hallowe'en costumes.

So I find it rather - uh, remarkable - that a woman who "watches a lot of news" and is basing her dislike of Hillary on that occurrence wouldn't know that.

[RiverLover]

122. She didn't seem like the sharpest knife in the drawer.

But she's a voter, or a non-voter, as it were.

[Vattel]

8. With a name like fumesucker, I would think you could handle the toxic atmossphere.

[Fumesucker]

13. I'm hanging out in GD-P

That should tell you something.

[Enthusiast]

9. I'm pining for Bernie and the fjords!

We are hearing too many people say they will not support Hillary in the general.

Characterize them however you wish—unloyal, stupid, righties, hippies or whatever. But surely this is an indication that all is not well in Democratville.

[Dustlawyer]

41. Bingo! This is the point the OP is making! Most above have not "discussed" it so much as

say who they are for or whether or not they could vote for her, but what does it say when so many say they could NOT vote for her in the General?

Why is it they say they refuse when normally we all pull together? I think this is why Obama came from nowhere to beat her, she is not sincere to many of us. We have seen enough to know she will represent monied interests first and the people second.

[uponit7771]

11. Dems don't have to be in love just with every candidate. After Obama its kinda hard you know...

... to like someone with a pro gun and anti immigration stance

[Fumesucker]

12. He's just resting...

[artislife]

76. Like Hillary?

Between what she says (now) and what she has said and done in the past...she is not on any moral highground.



Latina voter, here.

[Martin Eden]

14. Define "stay home"

Does that mean you won't vote in congressional or local races either just because you don't like the POTUS nominee? Some of those races are very important, and some of the candidates might be good. Do you vote in the midterm elections, or only once every four years in the presidential elections?

If Hillary is the Dem nominee I'll probably vote Third Party in the general because my state (Illinois) is safely blue. However, if it was a toss-up I'd think long and hard about enabling a Rethug to gain the White House. Think Florida 2000.

[Fumesucker]

15. You are ascribing more sophistication on the part of voters than most of them deserve

As an OP pointed out the other day we here on DU are weird in that we pay attention to these things, most people have better things to do.

[Martin Eden]

21. OK, so "stay home" isn't what you personally plan to do

I tend to agree that most voters will literally stay home if no candidate inspires them to go to the polls, which is why I think Bernie is the better candidate (aside from agreeing with him on policy).

I also think it's very probable that so-called "scientific" polls which assess who is leading the race are based on standard demographic models of likely voters, not taking into account the potential huge voter turnout for Bernie in the general election.

[hellraiser69]

38. I sure hope you are right

If not, I will be one of those staying home. I refuse to hold my nose again and vote for another establishment candidate. As far as the local elections go, I live in an area where I am out numbered by bible thumpers about 10,000 to 1, so my vote doesn't mean anything anyway.
Don't suggest moving, my house has been on the market for 10 months.

[Nedsdag]

92. I plan to vote in November 2016.

I plan to vote for my congressman (who's firmly in Hillary's camp) and that is it! I'm in a safe blue state as well.

Due to gerrymandering, I don't see any Democrat--Hillary or Bernie notwithstanding--doing anything with this congress except vetoing and deflecting anything that comes out of the Tea Party knuckle draggers in the house and senate.

The DNC has to find a way to create a grass roots effort to find candidates who are true Democrats and not blue dogs or DINOs who will never get elected because they don't want to be seen as liberal.

[eridani]

16. It's a matter of turning alienated voters into strategic voters

This is not easy. For the first time since I've been politically active, I've met alienated voters who are organizing into Sanders support groups. I'm sure everyone meets people like that while doorbelling--the woman (a 3 for 3 voter) who told me she threw her transportation levy ballot away because she didn't want to waste a stamp to vote for only one thing, the man who said he wouldn't vote in the city council primary because there were too many candidates to read up on, etc, etc. They rarely are interested enough in politics to actually join some kind of action group.

A number of local Sanders supporters are Democrats who are strategic voters, and will support whoever the Dem nominee is. We are outnumbered by alienated voters who will just stay home if they think that 2016 is just more politics as usual. Clinton has zero appeal to alienated voters, which is why Sanders will be a better candidate in the GE.

I've had a little bit of luck in getting some of them to at least stop and think with the transmission analogy. Sanders will put our national transmission into Drive. With Clinton it will be in neutral, but that still beats the bejeezus out of being slammed into Reverse by any Republican. An ongoing mass movement can push a car forward if it's in neutral.

[Major Hogwash]

23. Apathy is the enemy of democracy.

It doesn't help anyone if they don't vote, but if some of them are going to stay home because they are alienated, we need to turn out even more Democrats to turn the tide.
Voting is easier in some states, so I don't blame others who won't jump through 5 successive hoops just to get their ID in order to vote.

But, we need a liberal Supreme Court worse than we need a liberal President because once those guys join that group, they don't ever quit!
Back in the good ol' days, some of them might serve on the court for 8 to 10 years, and then retire.
Not now.
Now the conservatives appointed to that court serve until the day they die!

[Sunlei]

25. Obama will make a great SC Justice

Sunlei says it first, 2015

[TheKentuckian]

78. No, he wouldn't because the Supreme Court is not just about Roe and CU

He is untrustworthy on limiting executive power, the surveillance state and civil liberties in general, and reining in corporate dominance.

[A Simple Game]

29. I like your transmission analogy. My problem with Hillary is

I think the transmission is in reverse she just has her foot temporarily on the brake. Lately she has even placed her hand on the selection lever as if she will put the transmission into drive, but she fools very few with this gesture.

[liberal_at_heart]

52. Well I agree with half of your strategy. I am so glad Sanders is getting people back into the

political process, but I believe the reason so many politicians do nothing and sit back and collect a fat check is because they know the voters will not vote them out and even if they do there is a fat check waiting for them as a lobbyist or consultant when they get out. The whole damn process is broken, and the people who don't vote know it. So, the question is how do you get people to vote in a broken system. Well, I think our best shot is beginning by voting out politicians who don't do their job regardless of party affiliation. Plus we also have to do something about lobbying. If they know there is a big fat lobbying job waiting for them when they get out, they still won't do their job while they are in public service. They know all they have to do is wait out their term and then cash in. There are a lot of dirty politicians out there in both parties and we have to clean house.

[Hortensis]

18. Well, Fume. Take comfort: Rep. Mo Brooks will move to impeach Hillary as soon as she is

elected. Over what? One guess: "The damned e-mails!" LOL. In any case, obviously you would not have to suffer her being in the Oval Office for long.

[Sunlei]

24. what will Bernie Sanders say if he doesn't win the primary?

do you think he will tell people not to vote or will he back the primary winner 200%?

[brooklynite]

26. ...assuming DU is in any way reflective of Democrats in the real world. It's not.

[INdemo]

27. Your are so correct with that statement

But at one time it was.
It was until the Republican "lites" took over and criticized every real Democrat that posted a comment.

[Andy823]

40. Exactly

Here on DU we have the shit stirrers who do nothing but divide the board and complain. The majority of them probably have no intention of voting for the democratic nominee no matter who it might be! Their agenda is "not" putting democrats in office.

[Fumesucker]

42. Indeed, DUers are far more likely to hold their nose and vote for a nominee they don't care for

Like it or not the average person who votes for Democrats isn't a committed Democratic partisan and lot of them will not bother to vote if the nominee isn't someone who gets them excited.

The Republicans have the NRA gang and the evangelicals/fundies to organize and get the vote out, they are dedicated and obsessed with their agenda. There really isn't an equivalent organizational power on the Democratic side any more, it used to be labor but organized labor is only a shadow of what it once was.

[Dawgs]

48. EXACTLY!!!

And, it's even worse now. Many Americans think all politicians are the same and have no interest in voting if the options are status quo A or status quo B.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

28. I will vote for Hillary in the general if she gets the nomination, but

My two sons, ages 34 and 36 have never voted, claiming it doesn't make a difference. They've both registered as democrats this year, just to vote in the primary. I don't think they'll fall into line. My daughter might, but she always votes. I'll do my best to talk to my sons, but I always have tried.

[secondwind]

30. SCOTUS SCOTUS SCOTUS !!!!

[JoePhilly]

31. Which stage of grief is this?

[senz]

113. Being rude to Bernie supporters does Hillary no good.

Think about it.

[Nitram]

32. There you go again, Fimesucker, makin' stuff up and...

...playing the drama queen to the hilt. "Millions...will most likely stay home?" Dream on, sucker.

[Fumesucker]

34. Who will you be assigning blame to if Hillary loses the general?

[Nitram]

36. Sounds like you've already accepted the blame. nt

[Fumesucker]

37. He's only resting..

[Nitram]

39. No he's not, he's an ex-Democrat!

[Fumesucker]

43. Indeed, you make my point for me

Voter identification with the parties is down all across the board on both sides of the aisle.

[Nitram]

123. I gujess you didn't notice my reference to the 'ex-parrot', of 'he's just restin' fame.

Lighten up, dude.

[senz]

114. Never seen Fumesucker make stuff up or play the drama queen.

You must have him/her confused with someone else, "sucker."

[Vinca]

33. That's exactly what I've been concerned about.

The poor treatment of Bernie supporters is going to cause some - especially younger people who are hard to get out to vote anyway - to stay home rather than vote for Hillary. Hillary people insist she will win no matter what, but I'm not so sure. Democrats lose when voters stay home. Hello President Trump?

[YabaDabaNoDinoNo]

44. Why be concerned if the party wants Hillary then they should be ready for voter apathy already

If not they are piss poor planners and deserve to lose

Everyone who is really paying attention knows that there is just about zero enthusiasm for Hillary

I know folks who will not vote for her at all including me. I am all for the amusing presidency of the Donald and those who support Hillary should be ready for if too because more people hate her than like him and pubs will turn out to vote against her even if it means their own economic demise. Well they will get it either way when the choice is Hillary v Donald. Which really is no choice, its like getting to pick your rapist your gonna get raped no matter what so who would you rather be raped by Hillary or Donald?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. As Hillary rises in the polls I expect the attacks on her to grow exponentially./nt

[Dawgs]

49. Still won't make her electable in the GE.

Doesn't matter what you think or hope.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. Thank you for confirming my observation.

You and your associates can respond here:




http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251704666

[Dawgs]

55. LOL!!

Betting markets.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

60. Emoticons are inadequate camouflage for paucity of thought

Here is a link to peer reviewed research:

http://forecasters.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/gravity_forms/7-2a51b93047891f1ec3608bdbd77ca58d/2013/07/Graefe_vote_expectations_ISF.pdf


The peer reviewed research indicates that voter expectations, i.e. who voters think will win is the best predictor of electoral success, followed by predictions markets.

I would remark that your response is understandable as I suspect social science and political science were not on the curriculum at ITT Tech but that would be puerile.

[Dawgs]

74. Great research.

But, things can change. Just ask the Hillary of 2007.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB119902559340658043 (December 2007)

How do these markets work? Right now, you can buy a $1 bill for 44 cents; the only catch is that you only get the $1 if Hillary Clinton is our next President. The fact that this $1 bill is selling for 44 cents tells us that "the market" believes her to have a 44% chance of winning the presidency, a number that has risen sharply as she has become more likely to win the Democratic nomination. Interestingly, prediction markets have long suggested a strong showing for Ms. Clinton, even as popular commentators had earlier dismissed her as unelectable, much as they did prior to her successful New York senate race in 2000.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

75. In your initial response you dismissed betting/predictions markets as laughable:

In your initial response you dismissed betting/predictions markets as laughable:

LOL!!

Betting markets.




-Dawgs

Glad to have convinced you of their efficacy.

[Dawgs]

77. My last response is why it's laughable.

Your initial post stating that market predictions prove that Hillary will win was countered with a post showing that market predictions don't prove shit over a year before the election.

That's why it's funny.

Got it now?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

79. I was expecting ...

I was expecting a better response. Moving the goal posts is a little better than bombarding one's interlocutor with emoticons to camouflage the paucity of thought but only marginally so.

You're not bombarding me with emoticons any more so that is progress , I guess... Maybe we will reach the point of a teachable moment.


The peer reviewed research suggests who voters actually think will win, followed by predictions/betting markets are the best predictors of who actually is going to win:





What part of that don't you understand?

[Dawgs]

80. Right, and I showed the "market" thought Hillary would win in December of 2007.

The point is that polls and market predictors don't mean shit at this point in time.

I don't know why that's so hard for you to understand.

I'm not sure I'm the one that's having a problem with comprehension.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

82. Yes, when two or more people or teams compete...

Yes, when two or more people or teams compete until a winner emerges the odds will fluctuate. At this point Hillary Clinton is in a much better position than all of her opponents. That's why she is the favorite. In breaking news water is wet.

Let me give you a real life example...

The Mets are up 2-0 over the Cubs in a seven game series. Does that mean the Mets will definitely win the series ? No, but it does mean they are in a much better position to win the series than the Cubs.

At this point she has a 77% chance of winning the Democratic nomination and a 47% chance of winning the whole enchilada.

That was the point of the author that you initially mocked.

If you believe it was my intention to suggest that Hillary Clinton has a 100% chance of becoming the next president there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion. It is my suggestion she has a substantially better chance of becoming the next president than all of her Republican and Democratic opponents. That is inarguable, to any sentient person.

[Dawgs]

89. It would have helped if you said that in the first place.

It would have kept me from dealing with your stupid arguments.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

91. I would insult my interlocutor too if I was incapable of making an elementary inference.

Maybe it's time to revert to the emoticons.

[Tipperary]

51. I am a Hillary supporter who has "harangued" no one, nor do I intend to do so.

I made up my own mind and was not persuaded by any of the hotheads on either side here. I assume others will make up their own minds. I find the hatred and vitriol on both sides to be very disappointing.

I find it even more disappointing that any Democrat would choose to stay home rather than vote for our nominee. I cannot imagine staying home and allowing another Bush, a Cruz, or a Trump to ascend to our highest office. I am pleased with all our candidates and I will vote proudly for whoever gets the nomination. Anyone who stays home under those circumstances will have absolutely no right to complain about the Republican government they will have aided and abetted in bringing us. I take my right to vote seriously. Shame on any Democrat who sits home on election day.

Smh.

[liberal_at_heart]

54. sorry but that right there is harangueing.

[Tipperary]

56. It is haranguing to say that if Dems do not go the polls then we are in danger of

a Republican taking office? No, that is a fact, not haranguing. Perhaps you are just sensitive.

[liberal_at_heart]

58. Why don't we place the blame where it belongs, on the politicians, not the voters. Blaming

the voters and telling them shame on you for not voting has never gotten more people to the polls.

[Tipperary]

61. If a Democrat who chooses not to vote cannot see the possible ramifications of that failure

to vote, then I really have nothing to add.

Everyone has the right to do as they see fit. I was NEVER an Obama supporter, but I still voted Democratic. Staying home in a pout is very short-sighted imo.

Obviously you see it as an option, and that is certainly your choice. I find it incredulous that someone would not vote. I have voted in every election for 40 years since I became eligible to vote. I will continue to do so.

I do not know your age, but what I am hearing from you is exactly what I am hearing from my millennial co-workers. I find it discouraging, but again, everyone has the right to vote or not to vote if they prefer.

[liberal_at_heart]

64. Wow. Good luck convincing people to vote with that attitude. I am 39 by the way and have

voted straight Democratic ticket for 20 years. I have had enough. I am now an Independent and if a politician wants my vote, they have to earn it. Our middle class is disappearing under both parties. My daughter is a Millennial by the way and she is pissed at both parties because she is facing horrible college debt and not many job prospects when she graduates. It is time the politicians be accountable to the people, and it is time for the people to make them accountable. People who tell me how to vote or who to vote for get put on ignore so see you later. No one tells who to vote for or how to vote.

[Tipperary]

66. Apparently you have misunderstood me because I do not give a fig if you vote or not.

You ARE obviously very sensitive. I meant nothing personally but was expressing MY opinions of those who choose not to vote.

Where did I tell you how to vote? Where did I tell you that you had to vote? You cannot find anywhere where I did either. Perhaps you should reread. You sound a bit overwrought about the whole thing and that is too bad. I hope that a candidate acceptable to you rises to the top so that you can exercise your right. However, if you and your daughter do not want to vote, then that is certainly your prerogative.

I never tell anyone who to vote for or how to vote. I will vote for the Democratic nominee. You have a nice day now and try not to take things quite so seriously.

[jeff47]

67. Democrats are 30% of the electorate. You don't win with 30%.

Republicans are also around 30%. So it's the unaffiliated majority you need to win. And "You're a lousy Democrat" is not going to win unaffiliated voters.

Yoiu have to give them reasons to vote for the Democrat, not reasons to vote against the Republican. "Republicans are worse!" will utterly fail. As it did in 2014, 2010, 2004, 2002, and 2000.

"Hope and Change" worked, because it gave those voters a reason to vote for Obama.

[Tipperary]

68. Quotes around "you're a lousy Democrat" implies that I wrote that, and I did not. That

is rather dishonest of you. Again, I do not care who votes or who they vote for. I assume people will make up their own minds and I would never presume to convince someone to vote for the candidate I support.

I simply find it discouraging that so many apparently find staying home an option. That will not hold the politicians accountable. They do not care if you vote. The Republicans, I am quite sure, would be encouraged that people see staying home as an option. Because the Republican voters will NOT stay home. I will vote for our Democratic candidate, whoever it will be. Everyone else can do just as they please.

[jeff47]

69. :eyes:

Golly, if only there was some evidence laying around with what you specifically said. Like your posts.

I simply find it discouraging that so many apparently find staying home an option.

When we don't give them a reason to vote for our candidates, what do you expect?

"Don't vote for that guy! He's awful!" doesn't make them vote for your candidate. Because voting is not zero-sum.

[Tipperary]

70. I am sorry if you object to my opinion, but that is what it is, an opinion.

I do find it discouraging that anyone would stay home. How is that calling someone a lousy Democrat? Perhaps you feel that those who stay home are lousy Democrats. I do not, I simply find it discouraging. I am not at all sure why you have decided to take umbrage at my opinion, but hey, that is ok. I think there are many good reasons to vote for Democrats. I think we have a great group of candidates from which to choose. It saddens me that some here apparently cannot find someone that appeals to them. I think you might be spoiling for a fight, which so many here seem to enjoy. You will not get one from me.

You have a nice day.

[jeff47]

73. And your opinion doesn't actually help win elections.

That is your goal, right? To actually win elections?

Then you're going to have to spend a lot less time cultivating your opinions and instead find out about the opinions of the ~60% of the electorate that are unaffiliated.

I do find it discouraging that anyone would stay home. How is that calling someone a lousy Democrat?

Your post implied that they were essentially hurting the team. Their opinions on various subjects were not relevant, only the team was.

It saddens me that some here apparently cannot find someone that appeals to them.

I turned 18 in 1992.

Since then, there have had zero Democratic candidates I actually supported on my ballots. ("Woo-hoo!! I get to vote for Feinstein!!" said no one ever)

I voted D in the hope that incrementalism might actually work. And that has resulted in worse and worse candidates on my ballots, with less and less interest in addressing issues important to me. For example, high tuition isn't a new problem.

For the first time in my life, there will be a candidate I actually support on my ballot this year. And that apparently makes me a white supremacist, sexist, elitist asshole to many sporting the same avatar as you.

It should not be surprising that this situation leads to very little enthusiasm and thus very bad turnout.

[Tipperary]

88. No, that is not my goal.

My goal is to do my part as a citizen. Really that is all I can do.

I have never called anyone those horrid names that you say you have been called. Perhaps you should direct your anger at those who have called you those names. If they do it here, I sure hope you alert on them. I will do so if I see a Hillary supporter call a Bernie supporter names, that I can guarantee you. Or vice versa.

I am sorry that others have called you those names. They are absolutely wrong to do so and I would be the first to say so if I see that sort of thing. I agree there has been awful behavior on both sides, however I am not guilty of it.

Really I suppose I am taken aback that after having had a Democratic president for the last eight years that so many are still so miserable. I remember the Bush years and all I know is I do not want to feel that way again ever.

I am very glad you have someone to support whole-heartedly. I totally understand holding one's nose while voting lol, I have done it. I will be happy to vote for Sanders should he win the nomination, and I would not have to hold my nose to do so. I am a Hillary supporter and have been so for a long time. My mind is always open however, and it is quite some time before my state's primary (darn it).

We're all on the same side here. At least that is my outlook on the situation. I just wish everyone was not quite so contentious; I think it does no good to fight amongst ourselves. It is awful when Hillary supporters call Bernie supporters names and vice versa. It is so silly and you are completely right that that kind of thing does nothing to further anyone's cause. You will never see me call anyone a name because of their support for a candidate. Never.

[Fumesucker]

57. Not everyone who votes for Democrats is a "Democrat"

They are people who might vote Democratic if the candidate catches their fancy but unless they are excited by someone they just won't show up at the polls.

There are more non-aligned potential voters by far than there are members of either party, getting the not-particularly-partisan vote out is essential to victory for either party and particularly so for the Democrats whose voting base is rather fickle at the best of times.

It's the difference between maybe eking out a victory or maybe just losing versus a blow out landslide.

I'm to the point now I don't think either party really wants a landslide, far too much responsibility comes with that, much easier if you can point to the other party blocking everything your base really wants because "we just don't have the votes".

[liberal_at_heart]

59. exactly. They don't have to do anything. All they have to do is blame the other party and threaten

the electorate with the enemy if they don't vote for them. They get to sit back, not do anything, and collect big, fat lobbying checks. It's disgusting.

[Kelvin Mace]

53. Lately, the email issue is beginning to implode

as it should.

But the only thing that could allow me to vote for HRC if she were the nominee would be Sanders or Warren in the VP slot.

[NCTraveler]

63. True.

It seems as though there is a group of people, where if their candidate loses, will be as good as dead with respect to the political process. Selfish as it might be, it is the truth. Lets see if the canary dies. Many Sanders supporters are claiming they will be just that if they don't get their way. Childish threats, really.

[Fumesucker]

84. You can call it whatever you want, it won't change the dynamics of the situation

I put up an OP a few days ago that spoke to this, people largely don't realize that their economic situation has anything to do with whether or for whom they might vote. People vote like they do most other things, mostly out of self-interest, give them a candidate that stimulates their self-interest and they will respond by voting for that person.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251669554

“When I would tell them that Kerry had a plan to lower health-care premiums, they would respond in disbelief—not in disbelief that he had a plan, but that the cost of health care was a political issue,” Hayes reported. “It was as if you were telling them that Kerry was promising to extend summer into December.”

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

71. In matters of conscience the law of majority has no place. Gandhi

[cwydro]

72. I'll be voting for the dem candidate.

I've never stayed home and don't intend to start now.

[Maedhros]

81. A vote for Hillary is a vote for the further co-optation of the Democratic Party

by conservative corporate interests.

If the American people are to have any long-term success against the corporate bloc, they will need to have a political party fighting for their prosperity. Continuing to elect ever-more-right-leaning candidates, and erecting those candidates on hero-worship pedestals, will effectively destroy any chance of having the Party fight for the people.

If we continue on our current trend, what will the Party look like in 2024? 2032? Not at all like Democrats, that's for damned sure.

[Persondem]

83. Another way to look at it from Paul Krugman ...

"In other words, while there are some differences in financial policy between Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Sanders, as a practical matter they’re trivial compared with the yawning gulf with Republicans."

Link

[Fumesucker]

85. A lot of people don't believe Hillary is serious about her proposals

People can see the hands that feed HRC and don't think she will bite them, she really should have skipped becoming fabulously wealthy, it would have helped her credibility on economic matters a lot.

I was talking about Sanders with a friend the other day, he mentioned how all politicians only enter office to gain power and money, he was flabbergasted when I told him Bernie's net worth was less than his own (guy owns three houses he built with his own hands, rents two of them out and lives in the third).

[Persondem]

93. Realistically, without the House of Representatives

neither Clinton nor Sanders will be able to get much done in the financial reg department.

If by some miracle Dems get control of the House ... perhaps in a second term ... her feet can be held to the fire based on her proposals which at least one economist of renown likes.



Sanders, ......... Clinton,...................................................................................................All GOP candidates

[Fumesucker]

100. Hold her feet to the fire?

What, threaten not to vote for her third term?

Or maybe threaten not to vote for Chelsea in '32?

[firebrand80]

86. PUMA - Remember those people?

They didn't stop Obama last time, and whiny Bernie supporters won't stop Hillary this time.

Just like Hillary did last time around, Bernie will lick his wounds, promise to continue to fight for his principles, and stand up at the convention and offer a full-throated endorsement of Hillary. Not only that, 99% of the people supporting him will agree with him and vote for Hillary.

[Fumesucker]

87. I remember what happened to Hillary the last time

The reason being that Obama represented the future (Hope and Change!) while Hillary represented the past, she has been a fixture in American political reporting since before many of today's voters were born.

Now we here on DU know Bernie has been around a long time but as far as the public is concerned he is a new face bringing a new message and Hillary has been a fixture in American political reporting for eight more years than the last time.

Realistically I think Sanders has maybe a 25% chance of getting the nomination and a big chunk of the voters he might bring with him will just skip the election if he's not the nominee.

[firebrand80]

90. The weaknesses you point out in Hillary are very true

I just doesn't look to me that Bernie is the right candidate to capitalize upon them.

I think intra-party divisions are overblown at this point in the electoral season. By this time next year, the Democratic and Republican candidate will be debating each other, and every Democratic will be campaigning on behalf of the nominee. There will be very few holdouts, and even fewer of them will be in swing states.

[liberal_at_heart]

97. Every person is entitled to their vote. If Bernie wants to vote for Hillary if she wins the

nomination that is his choice. I will not vote for Hillary just because Bernie does. No, if Bernie doesn't win, I will write his name in on the ballot.

[sellitman]

95. Anyone not voting for Hillary in the General election is braindead.

All you need to look at is the Supreme Court. Enough of you purists pull that BS and we are truly screwed. I hope you all have more sense than that.

I will support Bernie until the day I cannot. After that it's anyone but the GOP. Not voting isn't an option. Voting 3rd party is not voting.

Wake up!

[olddots]

98. braindead ?

not the best choice of words

[liberal_at_heart]

99. buh bye.

[sellitman]

120. Good riddence

Back at you.

[Fumesucker]

101. Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger

[840high]

104. WTH - what a choice of words.

[emsimon33]

96. She simply can not win the general election

But the corporate, neoliberal, Third Way power structure of the Democratic Party does NOT want any one in as president who might end their power.

Down with DWS! She needs to be defeated and kicked out of Congress. She is a blight on the Party!

[upaloopa]

102. Stop telling us you won't vote for Hillary

If that's how you feel it is your choice.
I don't want to talk to you go sit out the election like you want to and stop telling us about it.

[Katashi_itto]

103. Say, I won't be voting for Hillary either...

[upaloopa]

106. Fine suit yourself

I will vote for our nominee. It is far too important to all of us that we keep the White House and win as many seats as possible in congress.
We each do what we think we have to do.

[Katashi_itto]

108. I agree and voting for a corporate shill is not mine.

But I do respect your choice.

[Fumesucker]

111. I appreciate you kicking my thread

[NanceGreggs]

107. I feel your pain.

Clearly HRC's front-runner status and her ever-rising poll numbers are reflective of a complete lack of enthusiasm for her candidacy, and demonstrative of a feeling of apathy among Democrats.

That canary is not only alive and well - it will be singing on election night next November, while people like you are still whinging about how no one was supposed to vote for her.

[Fumesucker]

110. Wisihing pain on me won't make your own pain less

There's almost nothing any of us can do as individuals to have an effect on history so we try to predict what will happen but all our predicting won't make it so. Some of what we do is for bragging rights other is for laughs. I saw the same behavior in the alternate history newsgroup when I was there long ago.

I don't mean any harm and I apologize if I have hurt you in any way.

[NanceGreggs]

115. I was wishing pain on you?

How?

I realize that Bernie isn't exactly doing well, and his supporters are disappointed. But rather than sucking it up and/or redoubling your efforts to support your preferred candidate, DU is now full of posts about how "millions of others who would normally vote for a Democrat will most likely just stay home if Hillary is the nominee", or whinging that she can't possibly win the GE - ALL evidence to the contrary, given her poll numbers.

There is no apology to me necessary, and you certainly didn't "hurt me in any way". But I think an apology to the Democrats on DU and elsewhere, who are working to see a Democrat elected next November, might be in order.

I've "known" you via DU for a long time, and know you are not a stupid person. Don't you think the combination of sour grapes and absolute childishness has gone far enough?

[Fumesucker]

116. I apologize and you step up the personal insults?

[left lowrider]

112. People are discussing this the wrong way

In my opinion people are approaching this issue the wrong way.

Most engaged democrats will vote for hillary if she is the only choice vs. democrats. Its not who the Dems stand to lose- it who they stand to NOT gain.

All of the independents, first time voters, and crossover republicans who are drawn to Bernie by his stance against money in politics . . .WILL NOT SHOW UP AT THE POLES to vote for a corporate candidate. We would never know the true numbers because these are people who are so turned off by politics that they don't show up to vote for corporate candidates on either side.

[joshcryer]

117. There were similar statements said in 2012.

Especially once it became clear that the website was not going to get rid of people making those statements.

[Fumesucker]

118. There was a contested primary in 2012?

I posted this in 2012...

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1480985

Obama is a long game player and DU is relentlessly about the short game for the most part.

Obama stood aside and let Romney be Romney and now everybody's talking about the bird.

I think it was Napoleon who said not to interrupt when your enemy is destroying himself.

And...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021538971#post74

It wouldn't surprise me if Obama is setting up a kind of political "bank shot"

Makes it look like he clean missed in the first debate but I suspect he's setting Romney up to clean his clock in the second debate.

Of course I don't pay any attention to the media at all so my attitude in this matter is not informed by their horse race coverage.

[joshcryer]

119. Oh, no, people were cheering Nader...

Really.

[workinclasszero]

124. You make the mistake of equating DU

with the electorate at large.

DU is a tiny subset of the democratic party.