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Thu Sep 10, 2015, 08:52 AM

 

Big-Name Plan B’s for Democrats Concerned About Hillary Clinton

Last edited Thu Sep 10, 2015, 10:05 AM - Edit history (1)

If Hillary Rodham Clinton’s new apology for her private email server fails to reassure jittery supporters, it could amplify the chatter among some Democrats who have been casting about for a potential white knight to rescue the party from a beleaguered Clinton candidacy.

Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr., Secretary of State John Kerry, Senator Elizabeth Warren, former Vice President Al Gore: Each has been discussed among party officials in recent weeks as an alternative to Mrs. Clinton if she does not regain her once-dominant standing in the 2016 presidential field and instead remains mired in the long-running email controversy, with its attendant investigations.

>>> snip <<<

It is not just Mrs. Clinton’s weakness in the polls that has generated talk of other alternatives, but also the strength of Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont, who is routinely drawing huge crowds at campaign events. That has been disconcerting to Democratic officials who believe that Mr. Sanders, a socialist, is so liberal that his presence at the top of the party’s ticket in 2016 would be disastrous.

“If party leaders see a scenario next winter where Bernie Sanders has a real chance at the Democratic nomination, I think there’s no question that leaders will reach out to Vice President Biden or Secretary of State Kerry or even Gore about entering the primaries,” said Garnet F. Coleman, a Texas state lawmaker and Democratic national committeeman.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/10/us/politics/big-name-plan-bs-for-democrats-concerned-about-hillary-clinton.html

Proof that the "Democratic Party" want's ANYONE but Bernie. I hope this can convince some people that the Democratic party is NOT working for all Democrats, but only third-way corporatists and their mesmerized followers.

But Hillary supporters should be worried. Maybe it's time to side with the real progressive candidate?

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Arrow 65 replies Author Time Post
Reply Big-Name Plan B’s for Democrats Concerned About Hillary Clinton (Original post)
Elmer S. E. Dump Sep 2015 OP
Renew Deal Sep 2015 #1
Elmer S. E. Dump Sep 2015 #4
Warren DeMontague Sep 2015 #25
Renew Deal Sep 2015 #30
Warren DeMontague Sep 2015 #31
DanTex Sep 2015 #2
Elmer S. E. Dump Sep 2015 #6
DanTex Sep 2015 #7
Elmer S. E. Dump Sep 2015 #8
DanTex Sep 2015 #9
Elmer S. E. Dump Sep 2015 #10
DanTex Sep 2015 #11
Elmer S. E. Dump Sep 2015 #15
DanTex Sep 2015 #16
Elmer S. E. Dump Sep 2015 #17
DanTex Sep 2015 #19
Elmer S. E. Dump Sep 2015 #20
DanTex Sep 2015 #22
Elmer S. E. Dump Sep 2015 #51
DanTex Sep 2015 #58
Elmer S. E. Dump Sep 2015 #60
DanTex Sep 2015 #62
Elmer S. E. Dump Sep 2015 #63
DanTex Sep 2015 #64
Elmer S. E. Dump Sep 2015 #65
Admiral Loinpresser Sep 2015 #26
DanTex Sep 2015 #32
Elmer S. E. Dump Sep 2015 #52
Admiral Loinpresser Sep 2015 #27
DanTex Sep 2015 #33
Admiral Loinpresser Sep 2015 #37
DanTex Sep 2015 #40
Admiral Loinpresser Sep 2015 #43
DanTex Sep 2015 #44
Admiral Loinpresser Sep 2015 #45
DanTex Sep 2015 #47
Elmer S. E. Dump Sep 2015 #54
DanTex Sep 2015 #59
Elmer S. E. Dump Sep 2015 #61
Samantha Sep 2015 #12
DanTex Sep 2015 #14
hifiguy Sep 2015 #48
0rganism Sep 2015 #49
hifiguy Sep 2015 #50
magical thyme Sep 2015 #3
Elmer S. E. Dump Sep 2015 #5
Samantha Sep 2015 #13
Kurska Sep 2015 #18
99Forever Sep 2015 #21
Warren DeMontague Sep 2015 #24
99Forever Sep 2015 #29
Warren DeMontague Sep 2015 #35
99Forever Sep 2015 #38
Warren DeMontague Sep 2015 #41
Elmer S. E. Dump Sep 2015 #55
Warren DeMontague Sep 2015 #23
RufusTFirefly Sep 2015 #28
Warren DeMontague Sep 2015 #34
Admiral Loinpresser Sep 2015 #39
Elmer S. E. Dump Sep 2015 #56
polichick Sep 2015 #36
Dems to Win Sep 2015 #42
Admiral Loinpresser Sep 2015 #46
restorefreedom Sep 2015 #53
Elmer S. E. Dump Sep 2015 #57

Response to Elmer S. E. Dump (Original post)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 09:28 AM

1. Your assumption is that "all democrats" want Bernie

That's not the case. The only one from that list that is interesting to me is Warren, but I don't think she wants it.

Biden, Kerry, and Gore have all had their shot.

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Response to Renew Deal (Reply #1)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 10:08 AM

4. Another reading comprehension problem.

 

I said the DNC is not working for all democrats, in other words, they are not treating all candidates equally and letting voters decide.

They are trying to rig it for Hillary.

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Response to Renew Deal (Reply #1)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 12:15 PM

25. yes, it's not their 'turn', right?

course other people have had their shot, too, and still seem to want another shot.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #25)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 12:23 PM

30. I'm not for retreads

Kerry wasn't electable in 2004 and isn't now.
Biden has lost twice and cannot win.
Gore has been out for too long, and the problems from 2000 are still there.

Hillary, O'Malley, Sanders are still relevant... for now.

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Response to Renew Deal (Reply #30)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 12:28 PM

31. I don't really want Kerry or Biden, either.

I'd love to see Al Gore run- for a lot of reasons, he's smart as shit AND he understands that all our other problems become meaningless if we don't have a planet to live on- but I don't believe he's interested. If he were, I think he would be a completely different animal from 2000, but I don't see it happening.

that said, I'm getting to the point where I'm not terribly enthused about Hillary, either. Not given the absolutely craptastic campaign she's run so far.

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Response to Elmer S. E. Dump (Original post)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 09:44 AM

2. Of course they don't want Bernie. Great guy, but no chance against the GOP.

The people who want Bernie most are the GOP. In the unlikely event that Hillary falters, Biden, Gore, or Kerry would make a fine plan B.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #2)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 10:10 AM

6. That's wrong. Therefore I sense you are a Hillary supporter.

 

If Bernie wins the nomination, he will win. No matter who is the nominee, the repubs are going to fail miserably.

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Response to Elmer S. E. Dump (Reply #6)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 10:18 AM

7. What I care about is winning the white house. I don't see Bernie doing that.

I support Hillary because she's the only one running who I think can. If Obama had a secret twin brother, I would support Obama 2 instead, he was a much better candidate. But we don't have that option.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #7)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 10:41 AM

8. It's sad that people feel that way - it's a self-fullfilling prophesy.

 

If people would vote their conscience, instead of worrying about electability - Bernie would run away in a landslide, and we might actually get some positive change in this Oligarchy. Once the debates start, if they ever do, I think you'll see a much bigger shift towards Bernie. Maybe you can reassess his electability then. There are actually republicans voting for Bernie, and I doubt very much they would vote for HRC.

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Response to Elmer S. E. Dump (Reply #8)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 10:57 AM

9. How can you honestly argue that electability is not important?

There is, in fact, a GE coming, and if the GOP wins it, then it's all for nothing.

Also, concerns about electability are not self-fulfilling. The logic is flawed. There are two rounds to the election. The "voting their conscience" thing only affects the primary, not the general election. Sure, maybe if people ignored electability then Bernie might win the nomination, but after that he would still lose the general and we'd be stuck with the GOP.

And more Dems supporting Bernie will not change my electability concerns, because Dems aren't the ones I'm worried about. What I'm worried about are indies and Reps. I'm worried about the socialism label, the fact that he's further left than anyone who has ever won a large election outside of a few very blue states, the fact that the Koch brothers are going to spend $1B and Bernie has barely any fundraising capacity. Those are real concerns, whether you like them or not.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #9)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 11:05 AM

10. I did not argue that electability is not important - quit putting words in my mouth!

 

I said that you shouldn't look at Hillary as being more electable than Bernie, because I think ultimately the case will be reversed in Bernie's favor.

Over 4 months before the first caucuses. If Bernie continues to gain support at the current rate, you may want to defer your decision until things shake out a bit. If this email thing actually turns out to be something bigger than HRC supporters think, she could sink like a lead balloon.

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Response to Elmer S. E. Dump (Reply #10)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 11:13 AM

11. OK, sorry, I misunderstood.

If you think Bernie is more electable than Hillary, that's fine. Personally, I don't, and none of the arguments I've seen come close to convincing me of that. So basically, we support different candidates because we have different opinions on who is more likely to beat the GOP. Nothing very surprising about that, and it has nothing to do with self-fulfilling prophesies or voting conscience or anything else. Just a different political assessment of the American electorate.

It's true, if the email scandal or anything else really damages Hillary, that could make her much less electable. But it doesn't make Bernie any more electable. This is why people are starting to whisper about a plan B, Biden maybe, or even Gore or Kerry.

If Bernie wants to win the primary, he's going to need to convince people that he is electable. Because otherwise, it's gonna be Hillary, and if not her then Biden, and if not him, then someone else. And so far, by and large, he hasn't.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #11)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 11:40 AM

15. First of all

 

They aren't whispering about a plan B because Bernie is not electable, it's because HE IS electable, and his election would go against their corporate and billionaire funders. Remember this is basically an oligarchy right now, and the powers that be (in both parties) want to keep it that way.

Secondly, you are basing your opinions on the present (which is a sane thing to do), but I am very confident that the downhill slide HRC is currently on vs. Bernie will continue, and after the debates increase in speed. But that remains to be seen.

Anywho, I appreciate your civil conversation, and as always, AOBAGOPF!!

(AOBAGOPF - anyone but a GOP freak)

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Response to Elmer S. E. Dump (Reply #15)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 11:45 AM

16. If Bernie was electable, then he would be the Plan B.

I don't buy the theory that a cabal of billionaire Democrats is worried that Bernie is going to take away their money. First off, he's obviously not -- maybe 1985 Bernie would have, but 2015 Bernie wants basically the same things as Hillary. And even if he wanted to "seize the means of production" or whatever, with congress, he wouldn't be able to.

What people are worried about is losing the presidency to the GOP. And there's a very good reason for worrying about that.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #16)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 11:54 AM

17. I don't like to say someone is naive, it just seems insulting.

 

Ignorant is also problematic when you are trying to have a civil discussion. Let me just say I think you are mis- or uninformed about what's going on in this country since 1980. And that is not me calling you names. I just wish more people understood the underlying problem that stops us from changing anything - it's the power base of corporations, lobbyists, and certain freely spending billionaires that have corrupted our politicians. Until that changes, nothing really changes.

Hillary is part of that cabal. Bernie is distinctly not. It has NOTHING to do with elect-ability, beyond the fact that the DNC does not want him to be President.

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Response to Elmer S. E. Dump (Reply #17)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 11:59 AM

19. Meh, I've never been one for conspiracy theories.

The simplest explanation is usually the correct one. In this case, the simplest explanation is that Dems rightfully think that nominating a socialist from a small liberal state who can't raise much money is tantamount forfeiting the election to the GOP. No shadowy cabal necessary. The corporatists you're talking about support the GOP, not the Dems. And if you look at what Dems stand for versus what the GOP stands for, it's obvious why.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #19)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 12:03 PM

20. They want you to think that - and it's working!

 

We agree to disagree, OK? I have to run, have a great day.

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Response to Elmer S. E. Dump (Reply #20)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 12:11 PM

22. "They" are quite a sneaky bunch, aren't "they"?

Cheers.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #22)

Fri Sep 11, 2015, 08:23 AM

51. Darn, you upped the ante again.

 

I'll only say that you must have heard of the Koch brothers, Sheldon Adelson, SuperPAC's, and bad acting mega-corporations. That is one part of "they". The corporate and mainly republican owned and run mass media is another part of "they". It really is "them" against the rest of us. "They" do most of their dirty business through bribing corrupted politicians, and planting far-right court judges. "They" buy state governments. "They" created ALEC.

I could go on, but hopefully you get the idea...

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Response to Elmer S. E. Dump (Reply #51)

Fri Sep 11, 2015, 09:32 AM

58. Yes, the Koch Brothers. They support Republicans and hate Hillary.

Not sure how this relates to your Hillary conspiracy theories.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #58)

Fri Sep 11, 2015, 09:45 AM

60. They would much rather have Hillary than Bernie - you should wonder why.

 

How they relate to Hillary? It relates to any Dem, but they're much more fearful of Bernie, which should be for obvious reasons.

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Response to Elmer S. E. Dump (Reply #60)

Fri Sep 11, 2015, 09:53 AM

62. They actually love Bernie, because he's much easier to defeat in the GE.

They aren't dumb, they know both that a socialist can't get elected, and also the difference between the GOP and Hillary is much, much bigger than the difference between Hillary and Bernie. I mean, for starters, if Hillary wins and gets to appoint a few justices, then Citizens United gets overturned and that's the end of the SuperPAC era.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #62)

Fri Sep 11, 2015, 10:04 AM

63. First of all

 

He's a Democratic Socialist, which is NOT a socialist. Most people can understand the difference. Secondly, there you go with your electability mantra, which is seemingly all you have, and quite premature. Have a nice... everything!

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Response to Elmer S. E. Dump (Reply #63)

Fri Sep 11, 2015, 10:11 AM

64. He's a socialist in his own words, and "most people" don't care about the distinctions between the

various different types of socialism. And, yes, electability is key. What matters is putting a Dem in the White House, and this doesn't change simply because you choose to ignore electability.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #64)

Fri Sep 11, 2015, 10:13 AM

65. We are both very sure about ourselves.

 

I'll bookmark this thread to be reviewed a week after the first Dem debate. Later!

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Response to DanTex (Reply #16)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 12:19 PM

26. Polling shows Bernie to be as electable as Hillary against GOP candidates.

And this is while his name recognition is still low. His national net favorability rating continues to gain on that of HRC each month.

This is what far too many Business As Usual Democrats don't get. The American people want Bernie's platform, plain and simple.

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Response to Admiral Loinpresser (Reply #26)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 12:29 PM

32. Hillary polls better against the GOP, but more important, Bernie's had no significant political

opposition his entire career. He's a self-described socialist, and once the GOP starts hitting him, he's toast. Nobody as far left as him has won anything significant outside of a few very liberal states. If people were clamoring for socialists, we'd have seen evidence of it before this.

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Response to Admiral Loinpresser (Reply #26)

Fri Sep 11, 2015, 08:25 AM

52. Thank you! I don't like to seem like I'm the only one trying to inform people.

 

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Response to DanTex (Reply #16)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 12:20 PM

27. You are deluded about the differences between

HRC and Bernie.

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Response to Admiral Loinpresser (Reply #27)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 12:29 PM

33. I look at their platforms, which are very similar.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #33)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 12:45 PM

37. Off the top of my head,

TPP, fracking, Keystone, $15 minimum wage, breaking up Wall Street, racial justice, LGBT rights, Iraq War, college tuition.

HRC's platform is meaningless. It is mostly generalities. Bernie's is much more specific. One questioner asked her about where she stood on an issue and Hillary said "I'll tell you when I'm president." I heard that with my own ears.

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Response to Admiral Loinpresser (Reply #37)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 12:50 PM

40. I'll give you TPP, but that's not a big deal to me.

I'm probably slightly opposed, but I don't share the end-of-the-world thing with some people here.

As for the rest, in general, where Bernie is farther to the left, it won't make any difference because Hillary is already to the left of anything that will get through congress. For example, Hillary wants to raise the minimum wage, just not to $15. I think she's for $12, which would already be a historic high-point after inflation, and which still probably won't get through congress. And so on.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #40)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 01:06 PM

43. Are you aware of the differences in strategy

for getting their programs through Congress?

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Response to Admiral Loinpresser (Reply #43)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 01:08 PM

44. If anything, I think Hillary would be more effective there since she's got more experience

with big political battles. But honestly I think it will be tough for either one since the GOP is almost certain to hold on to the house.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #44)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 01:29 PM

45. Bernie is calling for a citizen revolution.

First he is electable, HRC is not. As nominee, he would have much bigger coattails. He is calling for post-inauguration marches on Washington as part of his strategy to get his platform passed.

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Response to Admiral Loinpresser (Reply #45)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 01:34 PM

47. Calling for stuff is easy. In reality, the GOP will still be in control of the house.

I disagree about electability. I haven't seen any answer to how he shirks the socialist label in a country where 53% of the people won't consider voting for one, how someone further left than anyone who has won any significant election outside of a few blue states wins a national election, how his tiny fundraising is able to fire back against the Koch Brothers and all the money on the right, etc.

Sure, his crowds are impressive. But at the moment he's got the support of about 20-25% of the Democratic electorate. He's barely ahead of Biden who isn't even running. He gets large crowds because he has a clear ideology, in the same way that Ron Paul used to. Obviously, Bernie's ideology is better than Paul's, but getting a lot of like-minded people excited is different from gaining broad appeal.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #47)

Fri Sep 11, 2015, 08:53 AM

54. You may want to look at the poll that show electability by non-dems.

 

Hillary is losing her advantage every day. I haven't seen one lately, but I'm sure after the first debate, Bernie will be in the lead.

Isn't this another great day on DU!

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Response to Elmer S. E. Dump (Reply #54)

Fri Sep 11, 2015, 09:33 AM

59. After the first debate, huh. We'll see I guess.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #59)

Fri Sep 11, 2015, 09:47 AM

61. That will be the first time many people are exposed to Bernie.

 

And the contrast between H and B will not go unnoticed. You know, Dan, I'm sure we can go back and for all day today too, but I'd rather not. I understand your position. I don't agree with it, but that's my problem.

Have a great day, and a better weekend!

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Response to DanTex (Reply #2)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 11:36 AM

12. I think that might have been true in the very beginning but now they are shell-shocked

They figured they could allow Bernie to continue to criticize Hillary in the hopes that he might land a punch or two. But Bernie is not punching; he is just sticking with the issues. And the fact that he has amassed such a base in such a short time has the GOP strategists starting to panic. Even some Republicans are looking at Bernie.

Sam

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Response to Samantha (Reply #12)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 11:40 AM

14. Haven't seen any evidence that the GOP is panicking about Bernie.

They're loving it.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #14)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 02:11 PM

48. The 'pukes are in a panic over tRUMP and running around

 

like the contestants in Monty Python's "50 yard dash for people with no sense of direction." It's bedlam in the monkeyhouse over there.

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #48)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 02:31 PM

49. visual aid

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Response to 0rganism (Reply #49)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 02:46 PM

50. Thanks. I was too lazy to google it.

 

But that is unquestionably what the repukes look like these days.

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Response to Elmer S. E. Dump (Original post)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 09:49 AM

3. link please?

 

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Response to magical thyme (Reply #3)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 10:08 AM

5. Sorry - link added.

 

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Response to Elmer S. E. Dump (Original post)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 11:38 AM

13. It is very funny

I just wrote a thread this morning saying much of the same thing in different words. The NY Times has not got anything on DU'ers, right?

Sam

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Response to Elmer S. E. Dump (Original post)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 11:56 AM

18. I wish Al Gore would run

Really really wish he would.

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Response to Kurska (Reply #18)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 12:09 PM

21. No thanks. He surrendered WAY too freakin easily.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #21)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 12:14 PM

24. I think he learned a lot from that campaign, and if he were to run again I think he would be a

VERY different candidate.

Unfortunately I think one of the things he learned from that campaign is that he doesn't want to do it again.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #24)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 12:23 PM

29. He had his shot.

Just another more of the same crap CorpoDem anyway.

No thanks.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #29)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 12:32 PM

35. it's a moot discussion, because I give it less than no chance of happening.

But I respect Al Gore, "corprodem" or no. He has a handle on the biggest problem facing all of us, and that's something.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #35)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 12:46 PM

38. The real point being:

Establishment Democrats had best get over the "anyone but Bernie" mentality or be prepared to lose in GE.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #38)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 12:51 PM

41. I have no problem with us nominating Senator Sanders.

That's where my support is already leaning.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #21)

Fri Sep 11, 2015, 08:56 AM

55. But we can't call him a cheese-eating surrender monkey cuz he doesn't speak French.

 

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Response to Elmer S. E. Dump (Original post)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 12:13 PM

23. Kerry?

Whoa, talk about excitement.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #23)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 12:22 PM

28. Whaddya mean?!

You can't tell me this photo doesn't start your little heart a-pounding

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Response to RufusTFirefly (Reply #28)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 12:30 PM

34. Is it possible to go to sleep when you're already asleep?

And then go to sleep again?

That's the feeling I get. Like I just smoked a giant bong full of ambien.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #34)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 12:46 PM

39. LOL, good one. n/t

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Response to RufusTFirefly (Reply #28)

Fri Sep 11, 2015, 08:57 AM

56. Quite the lazy salute for such a big day.

 

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Response to Elmer S. E. Dump (Original post)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 12:44 PM

36. Party leaders are showing their true colors - let that corporate flag fly!

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Response to Elmer S. E. Dump (Original post)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 12:54 PM

42. Party leaders are going to tell younger voters to go to hell?

 


If party leaders actually cry for Biden to save the party from Bernie, as your bolded paragraph of your clip states, it will almost certainly doom the Democrats chance for victory in November.

Look what Nancy Pelosi just said:

Pelosi, the House Democratic leader, said she had followed Sanders down the West Coast during her travels around the country amid the August recess. The enthusiasm for the Democratic candidate’s message was remarkable, she said, especially among young people.
“I was going right down that trail and it was just amazing to see,” Pelosi told reporters from her office in the Capitol. “Parents would come to me and say, ‘I’m for Hillary, I’m for this one, I’m for that one, my kids are all for Bernie Sanders.’


http://thehill.com/homenews/house/253167-pelosi-praises-bernie-sanders

President Obama won (twice!) with enthusiastic support from young people. If Dem leaders embark on a 'Stop Bernie' effort, they will alienate young people and virtually guarantee defeat in November, imho.

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #42)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 01:30 PM

46. +1,000 n/t

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #42)

Fri Sep 11, 2015, 08:47 AM

53. absofrickenlutely

but they do not care. bernie terrifies the third way dems. they would rather see the wh to trump than bernie.

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #42)

Fri Sep 11, 2015, 08:59 AM

57. True beyond reason.

 

+1000 Kudos to you!

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