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grantcart

(53,061 posts)
1. Its actually the opposite.
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 06:21 PM
Jul 2012

He's given more than the 10% and they worry that normal people will wonder what goes through the mind of a guy that gives tens of millions to the LDS Church.

Cary

(11,746 posts)
2. Maybe...
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 06:23 PM
Jul 2012

Last edited Tue Jul 17, 2012, 08:29 PM - Edit history (1)

...if there is an inquiry into Mormonism a lot of people will discover that it is about as Christian as Scientology.

 

awoke_in_2003

(34,582 posts)
4. Are you a christian?
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 07:52 PM
Jul 2012

Just wondering, because I always find it funny when one religious person makes fun of another person's religious beliefs.

Cary

(11,746 posts)
5. I am not making fun of anyone's religious beliefs.
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 08:36 PM
Jul 2012

My comment was not intended to be a joke and no, I am not a Christian. What I know of Mormonism and Joseph Smith is from my college history classes and it's a rather strange story.

Of course it's not any more strange than other religious stories but Mormonism began in the 19th Century. At least with older, more established faiths most adherents eschew literal interpretations.

I am a Reform Jew and we are all about not interpreting the Bible literally.

I'm sorry but I don't believe that Joseph Smith was able to read what appeared to be gibberish when he wore his "plates". But then I don't believe that Moses ever actually received the Ten Commandments either.

grantcart

(53,061 posts)
8. Its not the religious beliefs that he is referring to, its the epistomology.
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:55 PM
Jul 2012

Mormonism and Scientology share a common epistomology which is completely at odds with Christianity (or Judaism, Islam or any other major religion).

Cary

(11,746 posts)
10. If by this you mean that Mormonism and Scientology are both completely at odds with the Bible,
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 09:15 AM
Jul 2012

then yes.

Not that I really care, mind you. I'm just saying, and celebrating, the potential for mischief, discord, and discontent between the fundies.

Yavin4

(35,405 posts)
11. Arguing Over The Legitimacy of Religions
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 09:47 AM
Jul 2012

is like arguing who are more legitimate super heros, X-Men or The Avengers.

grantcart

(53,061 posts)
13. No I mean epistemology
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 01:59 PM
Jul 2012

the theory of knowledge, esp the critical study of its validity, methods, and scope

All of the world religions follow a relatively similar epistemology, especially in regard to their sacred scriptures. In these cases the tribal/religious group goes through a long historical period where the preexisting metaphysical calculus is brought under scruitiny because trade and increased transportation opens up the tribal unit to contact with competing theories that challenge the more narrow existing world view. For example Second Isaiah and the Buddha (who were contemporaries) were both driven to try and find a formula that makes the narrow tribal religion have a wider global relevence (Isaiah's suffering servant passages were not a prediction of a Messiah but explaining how Israel has to suffer to bring YHWH's truth to the whole world).

There is an evolutionary process to these traditions that start out as oral traditions and the get codified under stress when the religious order is under attack (the Old Testament, for example, was written during the Babylonian Captivity) and a new metaphysical formula is needed and they go back and select out the oral traditions that make sense and edit together an integrated explanation that explains both the current problems and how it applies to an increasingly wider world perspective. Over time it goes through a type of peer review process (the New Testatment took about 300 years) where the good stuff is separated from the bad and then it becomes cannonized.

Mormonism and Scientology followed a different epistemology. Two lucky guys, Joseph Smith and L Ron Hubbard stumbled upon a completed work of scripture that provides a new systematic theology and oh by the way both prosper personally from it with personal wealth, a community to wield immense power, and multiple sex partners.

Mormonism and Scientology share exactly the same epistemology.




Cary

(11,746 posts)
14. Grantcart, I defer to your superior knowledge here
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 02:50 PM
Jul 2012

However I do believe I presented a Reader's Digest version of what you're saying. Not willing to argue about that, but I do think we were getting at some of the same things.

And I just tried to do some research to refresh my memory and could not find what I was looking for. I'm not going to put in the time here because I have other things to do. So I am going to talk off the top of my head, and I have been out of school for 28 years.

That said, my understanding of the early Church is that the Parish Priest class assumed ultimate authority over the Parishoners. Before them the paterfamilia were ruled by the patriarch of the family. In both systems, and in fact in the jurisprudence that we inherited (and revised of course) the people under the partiarch and the people under the Parish Priest were no different from chattel. Therefore these patriarchs and later the Parish Priest, and even after them the aristocracy, were free to take as much if not more than the two lucky guys at issue. And take they did.

If I am mistaken this is why the Church adopted celibacy for its clergy in the Gregorian Reforms and I think the oral tradition here was reformed way more than 300 years after this stuff began. And with respect to your lucky guys, their progeny are still way under even your time frame so it's not a surprise then that the good stuff isn't quite separated from the bad at this point.

My understanding of epistemology is that it is the study of the nature and scope and limitations of knowledge. Fundamentalists of any stripe are a priori. In other words they believe they come to knowledge only through their word and there is nothing empirical that can alter their word. Their word, or their book, is the word of God and therefore by definition it is absolute truth. Now perhaps there can be some sort of accommodation between fundies who use the same book but I don't see how the completed work that either of our lucky guys stumbled upon can be reconciled, in any fundie friendly way, with the Old and New Testament.

grantcart

(53,061 posts)
15. Church practice is one thing and its range of systematic theology another.
Wed Jul 18, 2012, 03:40 PM
Jul 2012

But there is an interesting nexus.

The development of Church doctrine and practice doesn't happen in a vacuum but is a reaction to many things that are happening.

So the early Church found itself lost after the death of Jesus and shortly thereafter the Romans destroy the temples and with it the ruling class of the psuedo Jewish state, the Saducees. The remnant Jewish community reorganizes around two competing non temple schools of thought, the Pharisees and the Christians (this is why there is so little aimed at the Saducees in the New Testament).

The Christians also start to include non Jews (which as I point out above is a common occurence when a religion is forming under a revised systematic metaphysical understanding). But how to understand what is happening. You have letters being written trying to explain the new reality, especially by Paul. Then Mark comes out with a gospel that explains the whole story, except that there are no resurrection appearences in the early Mark manuscripts.

The resurrection is understood to be an actual physical resurrection by most while some have a more symbolic understanding of the event as the Church being the resurrection of the Body of Christ. Also these, called gnostics, take a more philosophical approach borrowing more from Greek philosophy to understand the whole story of Jesus.

Eventually there are two schools; what is commonly understood to be Christian today and the Gnostics. They have a number of meetings and eventually at the First Nicene Council a well defined orthodoxy emerges. Virgin Birth, Crucifiction, Resurrection. And they also try to solve the difficult Christology by inventing the Holy Trinity.

The orthodox position is defined and eventually all of the Gnostic Bishops are forced to agree (even though it is obvious that some don't).

The reason that Christians generally don't consider Mormonism Christian is that it doesn't accept the basic orthhodoxy of the first Nicene Creed or things like the Holy Trinity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaea_I

Now there are some difficult holes remaining. For example Mark, the first gospel written (we know this because it is plaguerized by both Luke and Matthew) has no virgin stories. And while both Matthew and Luke have virgin stories, they are completely different.

You see the gospels are not historical narratives but works of art. Just as a great religious picture can illustrate the essential truth of the religion without being correct in irrelevent details so are the gospels, they are literary works of art that illustrate religious truths.

These holes (including the absence of Resurrection appearences in Mark) create a problem for the Church powers. How to keep it simple for the common man who cannot read and study and see broader philosophical issues?

The Catholic option is, as you point out, to appoint a local Priest that is the final authority. Until the 19th century it was illegal for a lay person to own a bible.

The Protestants took a different approach saying simply, "Its the Bible Stupid". It was thought that by eleveating the Bible to an unerring source that it would be easily solved and Princeton Theological Seminary initated the principle of inerrancy. Serious study at PTS quickly proved this untenable and they moved away from it, almost 100 years ago. In reaction to this a competing seminary, Fuller Seminary, was established in California to maintain the principle of inerrancy. It took the founders son to grow up and eventually work on the Bible at an advance degree level but they too eventually walked away from the principle of inerrancy. It is simply untenable.

Today the idea that the Bible is an inerrant Word of God is without any seriously respected defenders, so both the Catholics and the Protestants had untenable positions and they moved away from it, and there is now wide consensus among Jewish, Catholic and Protestant Biblical scholars about who wrote, why and so on.

All of this illustrates my previous point that the Christianity, and the other religions have an ongoing peer level scholarly debate that continues to challenge assumptions and the meanings of those that went before them. Its the same process the developed the Old and New Testament.

Both Mormonism and Scientology, on the other hand have books that were found either in New York in the ground or written by a failed science fiction writter in Los Angeles. Neither have developed over traditions and neither have scholars who are challenging the basic assumptions and interpretations. There are no Mormon or Scientology Priests or Pastors that receive serious theological training, they don't challenge the established understanding, and they aren't studying holy scripture that went through a similar 'vetting' process centuries ago. That is why I say that Mormonism and Scientology share an identical Epistomology.
 

HooptieWagon

(17,064 posts)
3. If he was stashing money in secret bank accounts in Switzerland and Caymans...
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 07:11 PM
Jul 2012

in order to evade taxes, then its entirely possible he was evading tithes also.

Kteachums

(331 posts)
6. It's none of your darn business! (Seems to be the answer these days!)
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:13 PM
Jul 2012

I was on a Christian site the other day trying to talk them out of hating Obama. It was sad. They have been brainwashed. I kid you not. Everything I told them and I honestly tried to answer their questions calmly and with good Christian reasons, they would come back with an ugly answer.

The issue of taxes came up and someone asked me how much of a person's salary did I expect to tax? I asked how much they tithe.

Boy, did I get an angry answer; "It is none of your business"!

Seems to be the Republican answer these days. It's none of your business how I make my money. It's none of your business where my money came from. It's none of your business about my taxes. If you want to know anything go check that Illegal President out.

Illegal President? They ended up telling one of my supporting friends he needed to get a skirt on and become a cheerleader for Obama. Needless to say, I have had enough of the Conservative, Christian, saved by the blood holy crap.

I wanted to tell them where they could build their "church of brainwashing"! What is really sad about all of this is the way the Republicans prey on ignorance. It is unbelievable!


I am so sick of this da-- abortion issue I could scream. Every election somebody jumps on the Women's Rights Bandwagon. I am 60 years old and about to become 61. These da-- battles were already decided. I think once the Supreme Court decides it should be final. Why do they bring this up every election year? Obama is a baby killer and Mitt is not? I guarantee you if one of those playboys in the house got a young lady pregnant and didn't want a baby they would be leading her away for one of those so called "baby killing" sessions. None of my business they would say!

Sorry, I got off subject! But, when will it be our business to get them to stop! Obama has put up with enough already!

Igel

(35,268 posts)
7. Such things are tricky to figure out.
Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:15 PM
Jul 2012

Even for the average Joe making $40k/year, there's a lot of variation.

Gross or adjusted income? Before or after taxes? Do you distinguish because FICA, which will bring you some income, and other taxes? If you tithe the money that goes to FICA, does that free you from tithing Social Security?

I know people that ignore losses. But most deduct losses. Depends on the details of the person's faith, the doctrine as written and as they understand it.

Outsiders.

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