sanders/clinton

[seabeyond]

i have been pointing out of late that sanders runs and campaigns to working class, middle class. up until recently he exclusively reached out to working class and middle class. as an independent, with its advantages and disadvantages, he has run the campaign as such reaching out to all working class and middle class. that is reaching out to not only the smaller faction of the democratic party, but creating a base of republicans, libertarians, teabaggers, independents and populist, along with the far left.

clintons base obviously is democratic.

people tell me that is a good thing for the general. and i agree. as a matter of fact, all of it is good. i have no complaint how sanders is running his campaign in this regard. it is his passion, focus and has been for a good four decades. this passion brings a lot to the table this season.

again, the good and bad.

one of the repercussions of having an independent within our democratic party running as a democratic representative, reaching out to all the other parties is as they become sander supporters they are welcome on progressive boards. they support sanders. they are uniting under the umbrella of the democratic party.

but really, they are not uniting with the democratic party. in their mind they are supporting an independent. and they come on du with their rw hate. a mere 6 months ago a repug libertarian teabagger would not be welcome on du. today, they are.

the point is, if sanders supporters, good ole solid dems, can kinda keep in mind that sanders is a unique element in this campaign season, bringing new experiences to our democratic primary and fellow dems are enduring the repugs, libertarians, teabaggers and others infiltrating and dissing our party, that it becomes beyond tiresome.

and as a dem, proud of our democratic party, having spent so much time on a progressive board for a reason, is going to get agitated with attacks on dems and our democratic party, from others.... because they support sanders and are welcome on du.

just another perspective i was considering last night.

it is what it is. sanders has brought so much to this primary, and the excitement level as a whole, and the compelling crowds and speeches igniting interest in politics for so many. this is not a smear thread. sanders would have no issue being considered an independent campaigning under the umbrella of the democratic party, reaching out to the other parties. considering the repercussions this will create.

[Armstead]

1. Were you round here during the Iraq War debates?

A whole lot of DUers were singing the praises (and correctly so) of Ron Paul who was a voice of sanity and clarity regarding US imperialism and the folly of heading into that little military distraction. He was a lot saner than the gobbleydeegook many "true" Democrats were serving up....The point is you can't look at this strictly as a "team sport."

Furthermore, any hardcore bigoted right wingers who may be initially attracted to Sanders' "give 'em hell" rhetoric, are going to bail once they figure out where Bernie is REALLY coming from..... No true-believing Tea Bagger is going to stay with a "socialist" who wants to raise anyone's taxes and add more regulation and who believes in climate change, etc. They'll soon pop over to Trump or Ted Crazee or one of those folks.

Sanders COULD attract and keep many reasonable people who have been bamboozled by GOP propaganda and call themselves "conservative" but who don't really want to see the country turned over to the Big Banks, Big Corps and Crony Capitalism Government.

In other words, his message offers one way to solve that longstanding "What's the Matter with Kansas?" problem. And that'd be a good thing.

[seabeyond]

4. self interest takes many of us a far way on our journey. self interest is true and dear to the

republican/libertarian/teabagger

that is the essence of who they are.

i do not believe that a lot will turn away, but narrow the scope to their self interest of economic equality. and i think sanders is counting on that also. if you look at the decades running in vermont, this is exactly how he campaigned. this would be the good of being outside a party, though voting dems interest.

so no. i do not agree with that part of your post.

no, i doubt i was here for iraq. i got on du feb of 2004 and it was already done. but, point taken.

amstead, thank you for simple expression of opinion and allowing in return.

[cali]

2. speculation with no supporting evidence.

You have no evidence that there is an influx of right wing libertarian types on DU. You have no evidence that such people are welcomed here.

[seabeyond]

6. yes. opinion, speculation, consideration, thought.... neat stuff. then expressing it.

[cali]

25. supporting evidence is necessary when making specific claims

[Senator Tankerbell]

3. Right-wingers are supporting Sanders?

I haven't noticed that. I have noticed criticism of the Democratic party and Democratic politicians coming from the left. Can you link to an example of "rw hate" coming from Sanders supporters? Maybe I missed it.

[seabeyond]

7. if you are totally oblivious to sanders campaigning to republicans, then i certainly am not gonna

put the effort into convincing you otherwise, lol. it is the basis of his campaign and has been from day one, absolutely not shying away from that. few sanders supporters actually argue he is not doing just that.

[Ino]

10. I would argue that he is not doing that!

He may appeal to some Republicans, but he is not campaigning to them.

[seabeyond]

13. he stands in front of 1000's and says... republicans, i am talking to you. so, we disagree.

his whole political career is campaigning to all parties.

[Ino]

19. context?

This is how he campaigns to Republicans?...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-weigant/candidate-speech-series-b_b_7821820.html

At a time when millions of Americans are struggling to keep their heads above water economically, at a time when senior poverty is increasing, at a time when millions of kids are living in dire poverty, my Republican colleagues, as part of their recently-passed budget, are trying to make a terrible situation even worse. If you can believe it, the Republican budget throws 27 million Americans off health insurance, makes drastic cuts in Medicare, throws millions of low-income Americans, including pregnant women, off of nutrition programs, and makes it harder for working-class families to afford college or put their kids in the Head Start program. And then, to add insult to injury, they provide huge tax breaks for the very wealthiest families in this country while they raise taxes on working families.

Well, let me tell my Republican colleagues that I respectfully disagree with their approach.

so, there's that. an actual quote. from day one of his campaign. yah.

[seabeyond]

21. i am referring more to speaking at liberty university to find common ground.

you seem to be assuming, though i addressed it in my OP, that campaigning to republicans is a bad thing. it is not. i did not say it was. i said the complete opposite. it is how sanders has successfully run in vermont. he is doing the same nationally.

this is not dissing sanders. so let it go, defending him.

he is absolutely correct what he is saying. i stand with what he is saying. i am not arguing what he is saying. that is not the point of my OP. my OP is not about dissing sanders.

look at this OP. VERY favorable to sanders. everything he says is fun, and right on. complimentary to him. not an insult. listen to the last clip. again. right on. and still, .... he is reaching and campaigning to repugs.

that is a large element that is supporting sanders. clinton has a large base from the democratic party. two different campaigns. and i found it interesting and thought provoking to the point of expressing it in an OP

no more.

[PotatoChip]

40. LOL! Was that supposed to be evidence of your assertions?

Because if so, there was absolutely nothing there showing Bernie "campaigning to republicans"...

Unless they enjoy having their positions on the issues ridiculed, I suppose.

Btw- I don't know where Bernie was speaking in that video (it doesn't say at the YouTube site), but it was NOT Liberty University. Why are trying to make people think that it was?

Edit: I just watched this again. Bill Maher is in it, so I'm assuming Bernie was on his show?

[Garrett78]

43. Yay, you finally - FINALLY - attempted to provide evidence for your claim.

So, I commend you for that. The problem is the video doesn't even remotely support your claims. Neither your claim that Sanders is actively reaching out to Tea Party types and libertarians, or your claim (that you made in another thread) that Tea Party types and Sanders express the same message.

Did you even watch the video you posted? Do you even know what libertarianism (extremely limited government, so-called "free market" rules all) is, or how drastically it differs from socialism? You probably shouldn't post about that which you clearly don't grasp.

[Senator Tankerbell]

11. I asked a legitimate question

Implying that I'm "totally oblivious" is unnecessarily hostile I think. If the "rw hate" is so prevalent, it shouldn't take much effort to find an example. If your argument is that Sanders is trying to convince working class people that they have been voting against their economic interests by voting Republican, then that is correct. It doesn't follow that those people are posting "rw hate" on DU. Criticism of Clinton or others of being too friendly to corporations and wealthy people is not "rw hate". If it's any kind of hate, it's left-wing hate.

[seabeyond]

14. "Implying that I'm "totally oblivious" is unnecessarily hostile I think." i did not imply. i stated

If you're argument is that Sanders is trying to convince working class people that they have been voting against their economic interests by voting Republican, then that is correct.

omg. lol. ya. that. ok, so we agree.

and ya.... republican pretty much ='s hate toward liberals. i live in the panhandle of texas, and have for over two decades. i know republicans. all i have are republicans in my family. i am VERY experienced with republicans.

[Senator Tankerbell]

15. Ok. So you're not interested in a discussion

Got it.

[seabeyond]

16. i discussed. so, you are not interested in disagreement. got it.

[cali]

26. lol.

[beam me up scottie]

47. BINGO.

[onehandle]

5. The lion's share of accounts deleted from DU in the last couple of months have been disrupters...

...'supporting' Senator Sanders. His supporters and his 'supporters' here have cheered them on right until the moment they are deleted, and often after.

Now let's see the line up in this thread to defend disrupters.

[cali]

29. prove that claim.

[HereSince1628]

8. That independent thing seems to really get your goat.

The democratic party is a coalition party. Inside factions may be more or less better organized.

The creation of the New Democrats was clearly an inside job to move the party to more neoliberal policies which hurt traditional labor-democrats. And under it's various names these neoliberals, more conservative and rather more southern have come to dominate what had been the leadership referred to as northeastern liberals.

This hung labor democrats out to dry, and along with ideologically left persons trapped a huge number of Rahm's FR's with apparently no place to go. Cue euphemisms about pragmatism and the importance of winning....

The Democratic Socialists have long been among the democratic coalition. And the democratic socialist agenda remains pro-labor.

I guess what democrats want is support from independents BUT they don't want independents on the dais.

That seems elitist and exploitative, which is probably why I never much cared for Third Way/DLC politics.

[seabeyond]

9. "really get your goat." no. i find it interesting. it is new and we have not done this, creating

a whole lot of new for us to process and consider. that is what i do.

that seems to get your goat.

now.... i will continue to read your post.

[seabeyond]

12. democrats want is support from independents BUT they don't want independents on the dais.

this is not exclusive. it is mutually inclusive.

sanders as an independent gets to run his way, with advantages. he learned how he could do that and win. he gave his vote to the dem party in exchange for them not running a viable candidate against him

they both got what they wanted, to our advantages.

it is not a one way street.

[SonderWoman]

17. Clinton/Warren

[seabeyond]

18. isnt that so. awesome. just the visual. the power of two very strong, very smart women.

that just tickles me all over.

[cali]

27. dream on. Warren hasn't even endorsed her and they disagree on vital issues.

[seabeyond]

31. like, is someone taking this seriously? series!!1!111!!!

[artislife]

46. Yeah, one who is fighting Wall street

and the other fighting ....for the unchange.

No thanks. I will take one over the other, but she has decided not to run for president.

[PowerToThePeople]

20. How many Republicans did third way bring into the party? n/t

[Juicy_Bellows]

39. A heckuva lot more than Sanders could have ever dreamed of bringing.

Very good point. Cheers!

[Vattel]

22. What evidence do you have that teabaggers, rightwing libertarians,

and repugs "with their rw hate" form a significant part of Sanders' supporters?

I don't know why they would support him. His views are antithetical to theirs. Clinton's record suggests that her views on, for example, military issues are much closer to the views of teabaggers and repugs in general.

Without evidence, there is no reason anyone should agree with you.

[Vattel]

44. crickets

[redgreenandblue]

23. so when centrists go for "swing votes" it is cool, but when sanders does it it is fishy?

[seabeyond]

28. when have dems gone for swing vote in democratic primary? who said fishy? oh,you.

[Buns_of_Fire]

24. Perhaps fewer people are willing to "pledge their troth" these days.

Independents (small "i&quot seem to be gaining in number, while the parties are losing. These people will, every couple of years, choose to align themselves with one party or the other.

But just because someone has a "D" or an "R" after their name doesn't seem to matter as much anymore. Face it -- Democrats have trotted out some real jerks in the past, and not every republican was the the devil incarnate (think Zell Miller(D) and Bob LaFollette (R)). Lately, republicans don't seem to endorse anyone BUT jerks, so the alignment is usually pretty easy.

Both parties evolve periodically. republicans seem to have chosen their path, while Democrats are just beginning their process.

Just My Opinion, worth exactly as much as you paid for it.

[seabeyond]

30. i do not think my post suggests or addresses pledging their troth. and isnt my point making

Your reply dismissive toward what I am discussing. I am with you on the rest of your post though, so thank you for that discussion.

[sadoldgirl]

32. A lot of people have left both parties

during the last years. They may have become independents
for a reason, don't you think? Over 40% of voters are Indies.

There also may be a reason why a lot of them may come
back due to Bernie, definitely not due to Hillary. The
millenials have shown no interest in voting up to now;
yet, when you go on social media you will find that
Bernie has given them a new interest. That is a large
part of one generation. Is the party apparatus willing
to diss them? That may be a very serious mistake.

You talk about republicans. Well, the Dems, who became
the Reagan repugs, may just want to return to their
party. I don't know much about TX, but here in CO we
have a purple state, which used to be red. Yet, when
Bernie had his rally here and was barely known, over 5000 people showed
interest. I consider that a success as far as getting
people interested in politics again.

[seabeyond]

33. i agree. as i have said in the past, i turned my youngest first time voter onto sanders.

and he has in turn, turned his friend onto him. the panhandle of texas is ripe for sanders outreach, with our youth. i saw that sanders would be well received thru the panhandle and at least into colorado spring corridor.

not really what i am saying on the OP, but i appreciate your post and agree. i thought this demographics for sanders was easily recognized immediately, him stepping into the race.

i was out mowing my huge ass yard today. i sit in very conservative as it is. nigh fundie, i imagine. i recently moved here so i wonder how it will be received. but, i was thinking my son and i have a lot of yard to play with.

sander

clinton

Sander

Clinton

SANDERS!!

CLINTON!!

OMALLEY!!!!!

democratic party.... VOTE

regardless how red we are, we have been able to be one of the very few democrats on the block.

[sadoldgirl]

35. Add one for Biden, just in case.

I wished I could put a sign out:

Trump is a FASCIST!

Unfortunately that guy could sue me for slander.

[seabeyond]

37. "Trump is a FASCIST!" that and that really would not work well.

if we are going up again 90% of the town, i tell my boys.... the message must ALWAYS be positive. there is a lot that can be said, in a positive way. was excellent in 2004 as we put like 11 stickers on my car. we each had to agree it was a good choice.

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.

that was a fun time. they were little.

[GitRDun]

34. Many of the most vitriolic BS supporters on DU have been here a long time.

That doesn't seem to fit the narrative above....which seems to say the disruption is an external force.

To me, it seems internal, at least on DU.

I have no explanation for it...mostly it's just disappointing because there is no real vetting that takes place on DU.

We're just like a Fox news broadcast in that we can't get past "corporate shill", "racist", etc. when we speak about the candidates. We bring up useless crap like an e-mail server in post after post as if it means something. We trip over how white-leaning Bernie is instead of focusing on improving the out reach efforts of a pretty nice older Senator.

We call each other disgusting, low, etc.

I've pretty much had my fill.

I no longer learn much here on DU from the posters, except that there is just as much hate and intolerance in here as there is in the rest of the world.

I still come in for the article links. I can still learn from those.

[seabeyond]

38. we lost a lot on du went we left the moderator system. i get it. but....

it was much more welcoming, i thought.

also. i remember stepping out of gdp in '08.

i need to start doing that one..... i really want to be here though, once the primary is over. lots of info, fast.

but then we had posters that were very good at providing info and staying on top. again, without the civility, we have lost some really good duers.

[AgingAmerican]

36. Bizarre OP

Party loyalty over sound policy? Bernies support comes from Republicans? Teabaggers? Libertarians?

It's amusing if not sad watching all the frustrated mental gymnastics of folks trying to smear someone who is infallible.

[Garrett78]

41. Enough already.

2 ridiculous notions that I keep encountering on this site need to shrivel up and die. Seriously, some of you are off-the-chart ignorant...or just plain disingenuous.

1) This notion that Sanders is getting support (much less a lot of support) from Tea Party types and libertarians.

This demonstrates a stunning ignorance of what libertarianism is and how it's the polar opposite of what Sanders stands for. Hmm, let's see, greater government involvement and refuting "free market" BS vs. very limited government and the free market is god. Think, folks. Think.

2) The insinuation that every critique of Clinton (and mainstream Democrats) is coming from the right.

Yes, there is a right wing critique of Clinton, but that is not - by and large - the critique being expressed by DU posters. The critique from the right involves absurd claims such as "Clinton is a liberal extremist." I'm reminded of an article in which Chuck Schumer was named the most liberal US Senator. Talk about taking reality and flipping it upside down. People need to understand that there is a very valid *leftist* critique of mainstream Democrats going back to the 1990s (NAFTA, crime bill, welfare bill, DOMA, hawkish foreign policy, etc., etc., etc.). Start with this article: http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/29052-five-reasons-no-progressive-should-support-hillary-clinton. Not to mention how Clinton employed the Southern Strategy against Obama in 2008. Not to mention her ties to Burson-Marsteller. Not to mention her ties to Monsanto. And so on and so forth.

Lastly, "far left" to some in the US is what's known as "moderate" in the more sane parts of the world.

[cali]

42. after seeing the newest du poll

It's clear that proportionality, when it comes to nasty attacks on the respective candidates, the Clinton camp takes the.prize.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

45. Take the Clinton part out and insert a progressive that would be a good ticket.