Is Bernie taking a cue from Hillary?

[MaggieD]

I see a lot of folks ragging on HRC here because she has not had big rallies and has instead focused on a listening tour where she lets the people speak. I think that is respectful and a sign of a real leader.

Is Bernie learning from that, and doing the same - listening? It seems that perhaps he is. And as a result he appears to have learned something in his recent travels to SC that he says he was unaware of previously. Good for him. Sincerely.

But also scary. Is there anyone on DU that did not realize that POC get fined for silly things, then thrown in jail if they can't pay the fine? Heck, even if you didn't know before you'd have to be in a serious bubble not to know after the DOJ report on Ferguson. I would have hoped Bernie would have read that report, but how could he have possibly missed the news reporting that summarized it?

And no, this is NOT flamebait. I believe we should have serious misgivings about Bernie for reasons like these. And I think I should have a right to have an opinion about that on a site like DU.

The video is here:

https://www.facebook.com/BernieSandersSC/videos/1735149746714641/

[SheilaT]

1. Several weeks ago someone here posted

an opinion that Hillary should not need to go out and ask people what they care about. By this point in her career, especially as someone who'd doubtless been planning her 2016 run since 2008, she really ought to have a pretty good idea of what people think and want.

The fact that Bernie doesn't really need to do that, shows that he's been paying attention to the issues that matter to ordinary Americans all along.

[leftofcool]

2. So, listening to voters is bad now?

Got it.

[Iliyah]

5. Anything that HRC says, does, or don't do or say is BAD.

[leftofcool]

14. Yep. I see that.

[cali]

7. see my post #4. Bernie is doing far more listening

And dialogue in this campaign than Hillary is- well, except for listening to big money donors at high ticket events. Hillary does a lot of that.

[riversedge]

68. You are really silly and do not know of Hillary's continuous Town Halls.

[cali]

84. you mean the ones with the pre-screened questions,

or the smaller groups with pre-screened participants?

[riversedge]

94. Give me your references please.

[SheilaT]

11. No. But needing to go out on a listening tour because

you don't have a clue what the voters are thinking about or want, is bad. What have you been doing all along that you're so clueless?

[leftofcool]

13. Like I said, Hillary listens, Bernie rants and raves.

[cali]

15. baloney. she pontificates. And her listening tour is with wealthy donors.

[MaggieD]

20. No, it really isn't

She just did an event with a friend of mine who is not rich, and although she does have some rich friends, she also has some not rich friends, and they were there as well. In fact I would say the vast majority of the people there were not rich at all. The main thing they had in common was that they were all people who have volunteered over a long period of time, or worked at low salary non-profit social orgs.

[questionseverything]

35. cool

why don't you post a link with pics and stuff?

[MaggieD]

37. Because I don't want my friend harrassed by Bernie supporters

[cherokeeprogressive]

156. I'll buy THAT for a dollar! (laughter)

[short circuit]

24. The very fact that Clinton needs a listening tour

is embarrassing. She has absolutely no idea what it is like in mainstream America, rather than Established America™ (patent pending).

[riversedge]

72. Why is it embarrassing? To who?? She listens to the people at her Town Halls! Now it seems

Bernie is also doing Town halls and listening. Good for him. Nothing embarrassing about Bernie listening is there?

[short circuit]

149. She has no clue on what's going on in the heartbeat of America

and only goes to "town halls" full of screened loyalists.

When she starts jamming people in her rallies, needing overflow areas for the crowds, let me know - I'm still waiting for that day. The most she could muster is 5,500. I am afraid that's about the maximum she'll get until she starts showing up and talking to people.

[frylock]

89. Hillary listens..

mmm-hmmm mmm-hmmm mmm-hmmm

[NanceGreggs]

29. I guess it doesn't occur to you ...

.. that what voters are thinking or want varies from one area of the country to another, and changes over time?

By way of comparison, what does long-time Vermonter Bernie know about what it's like to grow up black in a major city,
or the challenges that face farmers in the mid-west, or the concerns of people in Texas as opposed to those in Maine?

If a candidate thinks they KNOW all of the many things that different voters want and need, that sounds incredibly "clueless" to me.

[MaggieD]

38. Exactly

[leftofcool]

45. +1

[1StrongBlackMan]

69. Come on, Nance ...

what does long-time Vermonter Bernie know about what it's like to grow up black in a major city

He grew up (not) poor in Brooklyn!

[NanceGreggs]

111. Yes, he grew up in Brooklyn ...

... over five decades ago. So there's no point in talking to the people living there now, because I'm sure nothing has changed.

I was born in Brooklyn, too - and no doubt the folks living back on my block are still concerned about the post-war housing shortage, and the loss of jobs now that the local streetcars are being phased-out.

[sibelian]

238. How could this politically insensate criticism not be applicable to ANY candidate?

What is it about Bernie Sanders that encourages you to level it at him?

"If a candidate thinks they KNOW all of the many things that different voters want and need, that sounds incredibly "clueless" to me. "

i.e. all politicians and every poster on DU is clueless.

[NanceGreggs]

241. I wasn't "leveling" anything at Sanders.

I was using him as an example. Obviously, the same could be said of ANY candidate; that was the point.

I was responding to the opinion expressed that any candidate who asks questions of voters must be "clueless", otherwise they would KNOW what every voter needs or wants without having to ask.

And, yes, if any candidate thinks they know - without any need to actually engage voters and get their input - what every citizen's priorities are, that candidate is foolishly relying on their own assumptions, rather than facts on-the-ground.

[1StrongBlackMan]

63. And there have been post after OP, lamenting, mocking and deriding HRC's use of polling ...

It would seem smart to me to listen to folks (face to face, if even in a crowd), then test (poll) to see if what you just heard comports with larger themes, or is it a more provincial concern. If it is part of a larger theme, you develop a plan to address it, yesterday ... and place it more prominently on your to do list. If it is a more provincial matter, you still think of the plan to deal with it; but, it doesn't have to be a high priority matter on your campaign.

I'm sorry (no, not really) ... I value information, as it allows for informed decision making. And, I value that in a politician.

[bunnies]

3. Bernies been doing this since even before he decided to run.

I attended two such events last fall.

[cali]

4. I haven't criticized her for not holding big rallies.

Can't say I think much of her so-called listening tour, stage managed as it is.

And sorry but it's a ludicrous stretch to claim that Bernie is learning to listen to voters from her. He holds.real, not stage managed events, engaging with people- listening to them and responding to questions, including hostile ones. He's done this for decades in Vermont. He's done it for years every Friday on Thom Hartmann's show. And he's done it I Iowa and New Hampshire during this campaign.

[Scuba]

235. /\_/\_This right here_/\_/\

[Raine1967]

6. I am actually really surprised that he asked *is this true?* and

and *What happens if you don't pay the fine?*

With all the attention the BLM is bringing to light, With the shootings of black men (in particularly the murder of Walter SCott, who very well may have run because he owed money) I find this a little unsettling.

And I am glad that he is talking to people in small gatherings, I am, but that he come across as unaware to me says he still needs to learn a lot bout a few things.

That isn't a knock on Bernie, like you, this is an opinion.

[MaggieD]

18. Yes, it is unsettling

... to put it mildly. IMO.

[seabeyond]

30. I can listen to omalley and he has the 'tells' that he gets women's issues.

This is why it is so important to hear our candidates discuss these issues.

I have felt since listening to sanders from the start that he just does not get it. He hasn't been listening and hasn't been aware. He knows he wants equality and that is as far as he has gone.

Like men say women should be equal but they don't get it cause it isn't a learning interest.

[Raine1967]

39. I agree.

This video made me really uncomfortable.

It's been reported that he is working with BLM, so I was very surprised to hear him actually ask if this is true. That is bothersome to me.

Anyone paying attention to the issues of AfAm's knows this is true. Bernie is listening and I think that is to his credit, but it seems a little late to be learning about issues like this that affect african Americans so very deeply.

[seabeyond]

44. Yes. My concern day one. Hence walking away. Being provided omalley stuff and saying...

This is what I am talking about. And remember right before I was kicked off for over two months I started a thread in omalley group and all those in the know were providing me info I needed to support the man.

[Raine1967]

79. Well, the group is really meant to be as informational as possible.

[seabeyond]

82. and you all excel. nt

[beam me up scottie]

95. Video of Bernie from 2012 proving he "gets it":

You should learn about the candidates if you want to discuss the issues.

[seabeyond]

99. as long as we do not expect sanders to hold our hand. yes. i listened to 2012 a couple months ago

and applauded him on the thread that i listened to it on. thanked them for providing. gushed all over the man for three or more years ago.

what you do not do is listen.... hmmmmm. maybe a consistent characteristic. read omalleys discussion on womens issues and see the difference. you know. for education.

i wont be talking to you again. it is not a conversation you can follow and leaves me wasting a lot of my time

[beam me up scottie]

103. Women don't want a man to hold our hand, we want a feminist who has always fought for us.

And if you weren't so busy exploiting women's issues and swift boating Bernie you would know his record is impeccable.

[seabeyond]

108. ya. asking he speak up for planned parenthood is holding womens hands. got it. now done.

this ... is why i do not talk to you. between the continually moving the bar, the flat out constant insults.

[beam me up scottie]

112. Nope, Bernie has been fighting for women for decades, just like lgbt people and poc.

Just because you pretend his record doesn't exist doesn't mean it goes away.

Proving you're wrong is not moving the bar, just like calling you out on your bullshit isn't insulting you.

But keep digging, this is fun to watch.

[leftofcool]

123. Tsk Tsk

[beam me up scottie]

124. Tut tut.

Wang dang doodle.

[magical thyme]

64. those questions didn't bother me at all...

As a (former) professional writer, I would frequently ask questions when I already knew the answer, to give interviewees a chance to start talking and to state matters in their own words, or to keep them talking, to encourage them to expand on a topic and so they know I am listening closely to them.

For example, I might interview several different participants from an event. After I've talked to the first person, I have a good idea of what took place. But person #2, 3, and 4 deserve the same attention and the same opportunity to describe their specific experience of the event. I would seek everybody's input to give me a much better, richer, more rounded, more dynamic and multifaceted explanation of what took place.

It really beats saying, "Mmmm...hmmm" over and over again.

[cali]

147. +1

[1StrongBlackMan]

80. Perhaps ...

He was attempting to appear humble.

[Raine1967]

83. Maybe?

I just went by what I saw (and heard) on the video.

Humble is fine, asking if such an issue were true in this day and age, I just don't know what to make of it and I am not going to try to get into the candidates mind.

[djean111]

8. Noted. I have quite serious misgivings about Hillary, due to her quite COGNIZANT

votes for war and her fondness of H-1B visas, among other things.

In the end, there is no "we" when it comes to supporting a candidate. Each of us weighs the pros and cons, and makes a choice.

And I think I should have a right to have an opinion about that on a site like DU.

Of course you do! What you do not have a right to is agreement with your opinion. What you do not have a right to is no discussion, just acceptance, of your opinion. Unless you are in a protected group. That's all.

[Vattel]

9. It's unconstitutional to put someone in jail as a result of his or her inability to pay a fine.

[Raine1967]

26. and yet it happens.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-rise-of-americas-debtor-prisons/

In his account of the experience, Thompson says he was ordered to pay $810 in fines by Georgia's DeKalb Recorders Court, an amount that was out of reach for the low-income auto shop and tow truck worker. Instead of working with Thompson to find another way to pay, such as through community service, the court handed off Thompson to a for-profit probation company called Judicial Correction Services (JCS). JCS told Thompson he had 30 days to pay the fine, but also gave him erroneous legal information, such as overestimating the cost of a public defender.

Thompson notes that the court later took up a JCS officer's recommendation to incarcerate him, resulting in a five-day stint in jail for failing to pay the fine.

John Oliver covered this as well:

[Vattel]

195. You are right that it happens. And it is disgusting when it does.

[Raine1967]

196. I wasn't sure if you posted that it does indeed happen regardless of constitutionality

.. so I wanted to make that clear: it happens.

and this is why I am sincerely befuddled at Sanders response in the video from the OP.

YOu know it, I know it and pretty much anyone spending anytime caring about social justice knows it. That he seemed surprised, well I can't make heads or tales of it.

[Vattel]

215. Yes, I see your point. In defense of Bernie, one has to keep in mind

that different states and different jurisdictions, and even different judges within the same jurisdiction, have different policies, procedures, and practices for dealing with unpaid fines. Sanders was not aware of how things are done in South Carolina. If he was not aware of the general problem, then that is surprising and a little disappointing, but given his enormous advantages over Clinton, it wouldn't affect my assessment of who I should vote for.

[Raine1967]

234. Cool. I am not trying to dissuade you of your support. I want to make that clear.

I hope you know that.

I would be asking the same thing of the candidate I support if they responded in such a way.

peace.
Raine

[Vattel]

236. peace to you too. One thing I really do hope

is that whoever we get into office ends up making criminal justice reform a huge priority.

[bettyellen]

57. You had no idea that this happens all the time- it was spotlighted in coverage of Ferguson. Jeeze.

[Vattel]

194. No, I was already aware of the issue.

Part of the problem is how SCOTUS's decision has been interpreted by lower courts.

[eridani]

10. Apparently "real people" have to go through an intense screening process n/t

[Agschmid]

12. This IS flamebait.

[MaggieD]

16. It really isn't....

I cannot imagine why it should not matter if a candidate is in touch with the actual issues people are experiencing. It matters. It's an actual issue that bears discussion.

[cali]

19. lol.

People here get it.

[MaggieD]

22. Why personally attack the messenger?

Am I not allowed to have the opinion that our nominee should be very in touch with the issues we face? Why can't you understand that there are legitimate reasons many people do not find Bernie a good candidate?

[Agschmid]

23. And it's your job to tear him down?

People should really focus on supporting a candidate rather than trying to tear them down.

[MaggieD]

41. I think it is a huge factor in choosing a nominee

Remember how out of touch Bush looked when he was amazed by a grocery scanner? Or how about Mitt's car elevator? Or Todd Akin thinking you could not get pregnant if raped?

It is astounding that he was unaware of this problem, as he states. Would you not have to agree with that?

[Agschmid]

48. Pretty sure this won't be an issue with Bernie...

He shops at City Market so he has familiarity with scanners, he can't afford a car elevator, and thinks rape is bad.

So I'm not concerned, and you shouldn't be either.

[MaggieD]

56. Well see I DO care if he is just learning about....

... the issue of petty fines being used to harass POC and then throwing them in jail when they can't pay. Why don't you mind that this is apparently the first of him hearing about this issue? This is not something that is new.

[Agschmid]

67. Because I know he will do something about it.

Honestly it's about how people address the issues, not just whether or not they know about it.

[cali]

49. oh you mean how out of touch Hillary was when she talked

about leaving the White House dead broke, in her attempt to look like she related to struggling people?

[MaggieD]

52. She DID leave the WH dead broke

How many millions in debt were they when they left (thanks to lawyers needed for fake scandals)? Many. Being millions in debt sure sounds like dead broke to me.

[cali]

76. omg. presidents leave the WH with people falling all over themseves

to pay them big bucks. Not even remotely the same thing as regular people struggling with crushing medical debts or student debt or not being able to pay for auto repairs so they can get to work. If you actually believe they were dead broke when they left the WH, you are as out of touch as she is.

They bought their 1.7 million dollar house in Westchester in 1999 with the help of wealthy friends. Do you think that people who are actually dead broke have those resources?

[Dragonfli]

102. That's weird, I thought being dead broke she must have lived in a friends broken van

like I did for over a year. Or maybe on a bench Or a box in an alleyway, like many of my peers do to this day

I guess dead broke now includes luxury housing, man I wish someone would have given me the address to mine.

[cali]

106. it's so insulting. I hope things are better for you now.

[Dragonfli]

180. I'm not homeless now, but since I broke my body working too long

And the SSDI is trying to stall me until I die (osteoarthritis keeps me from working as a tradesman but the Pulmonary hypertension is killing me one short breath at a time) before I get benefits I payed into for almost 40 years, I am looking at a possible eviction every month.

What a great many people don't know is that since Clinton killed welfare, they only give a guy like me about 300 bucks a month for rent, all utilities and any sundries beyond food (EBT for that). As a consequence, I no longer have natural gas and fall behind in rent about 40 bucks every month.

It is just a matter of time before my health problems kill me or my landlord gets sick of hearing I'll catch up when my benefits come through. I think SS is running the slowest in the race and will come in last, it has been four years since I became unhireable due to health and SS is geared to stall until you give up or die trying. I won't give up, but expect fully well to die while trying.

I just take it personally when rich people living in luxury downplay the life lived by the more than half of Americans that ARE dead broke, some of whom are dying because of it.

I know many people living in the streets, or not eating enough or worrying about eviction every month if they still do have a place to crash. One I knew died last winter from the cold crashing in an abandoned bowling alley (I live in Buffalo, death from cold happens here).

Things are better for me now, but extremely unstable and likely more stressful than what poor Hill went through.

[beam me up scottie]

182. I'm glad things have improved.

And I hope they continue to get better, it is unconscionable that so many people live in poverty in this country.

[MaggieD]

120. Having no money or a home

Is having no money or a home. Truman was dead broke after he left the WH too.

[cali]

129. no it really isn't. seriously, Maggie, do you actually not understand

the qualitative difference? Are you that lacking in sympathy and understanding. And they bought a 2 million dollar estate in 1999. So they certainly had a home when they left the WH.

[frylock]

224. What a wonderful display of empathy.

[MaggieD]

121. Being Millions in debt....

... As the price for kicking republican ass for 8 years isnt something to be happy about either, is it?

[beam me up scottie]

122. Your comparison of millionaires to a once homeless person is disgusting.

Your lack of compassion for a fellow DUer because they don't support your candidate speaks volumes about your character.

Some people have no shame, they will say and do anything in support of a politician.

[MaggieD]

127. They were not millionaires - they were millions in debt

What is the purpose of trying to deny that factual reality?

[beam me up scottie]

128. THEY ARE AND THEY WEREN'T LIVING IN A VAN LIKE THE POSTER YOU COMPARED THEM TO.

[cali]

134. your comment on this subject are a complete denial of reality

And the way you keep doubling down is just bizarre.

I hope a lot of your fellow Clinton supporters see your comments in this thread.

[beam me up scottie]

146. I'm bookmarking it.

For the next time they complain about Bernie's supporters and post links to other threads.

[cali]

159. good. it's sickening.

[leftofcool]

126. You are wasting your time, Maggie.

Some supporters of other candidates can't do anything but throw around personal insults. Put them on ignore and come home to the Hillary Group. These people are not worth your precious time.

[cali]

141. do you really not understand how disingenuous and morally offensive

it is to say what she's saying? All bickering aside, comparing the situation of the Clintons when they left the WH with people struggling to get by, crippled by debt with no way out?

No, broke is not broke as Maggie claims.

Step away from your partisanship for a moment and have some empathy.

[cali]

131. shame on you. just shame.

[MaggieD]

136. For what? Not calling her a liar when she was telling the truth?

[cali]

155. she was factual, not truthful.

She moved into a 2 million dollar estate when she left the WH. They had unlimited earning potential immediately. They had pensions, healthcare, money for staff and more. That is not what 99.9% of people think of when they think of broke.

[seabeyond]

164. everyone knew exactly what clinton was saying. they walked out of the wh broke.... in debt.

no more or less. yes, everyone gets the potential. everyone gets their position was not the same as a homeless in the street. that they would easily dig themselves out because of that potential. but it is the attack on maggie for a factual statement that wasnt honest. talk about disgusting, .... shame shame.... and every other attack in this little subthread.

maggie made a factual statement. clinton made a factual statement. the argument was redirected to some really ugly comments.

you say take it from partisan. well, you do the same.

[beam me up scottie]

167. Bullshit she didn't. Here's the exchange:

MaggieD (3,182 posts)

52. She DID leave the WH dead broke

How many millions in debt were they when they left (thanks to lawyers needed for fake scandals)? Many. Being millions in debt sure sounds like dead broke to me.

Dragonfli (8,061 posts)

102. That's weird, I thought being dead broke she must have lived in a friends broken van

like I did for over a year. Or maybe on a bench Or a box in an alleyway, like many of my peers do to this day

I guess dead broke now includes luxury housing, man I wish someone would have given me the address to mine.

MaggieD (3,182 posts)

120. Having no money or a home

Is having no money or a home. Truman was dead broke after he left the WH too.

Now you're defending her disgusting lack of compassion for a fellow DUer.

All over a candidate.

Pathetic.

[seabeyond]

171. "her attempt to look like she related to struggling people?" cali started with this. she started

the comparison. bullshit. she made up a jab, totally a fabricated interpretation with no substance.

this whole subthread is a fuckin manipulatio to the ugliest.....

now. i have taken my tums... i am out.

disgusting subthread.

[beam me up scottie]

173. It is a disgusting subthread because it shows how far some will go to support Hillary.

Comparing her to a homeless person is despicable.

[leftofcool]

198. Sea, Sea, Sea,

Like I told Maggie, don't waste your breath. People will interpret things exactly the way they want to. You and I both know what Maggie was saying and so do they. You do not need to wallow in the pit. You are far to precious to us to be baited. Get thyself to the Hillary Group immediately and PM me.

[beam me up scottie]

203. So you're okay with what Maggie said about Campaign Zero shilling for Bernie?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=545849

Because that was pretty damn offensive.

[cali]

175. unfuckingbelievable.

[Dragonfli]

133. Then surely, homelessness like us mere mortals was involved, missed meals too

I was only a few thousand in debt and barely ate. Why did I not live in luxury as well?

[MaggieD]

135. The accusation is that she was not dead broke....

... but she was worse than dead broke, she was millions in debt to lawyers due to republican smears.

[Dragonfli]

148. It is just numbers on paper to them, numbers that appear to have grown considerably

While never losing the tiniest bit of luxury.

She lived like a queen while in debt on paper and still lives like a queen after profiting greatly from influence seekers.

You must live pretty well yourself not to understand the basics of the reality of the difference of being broke and in debt and merely having a "cash flow problem" that does not affect someone's quality of life one bit.

Good for you that you live a life of comfort, I can assure you half of America has to worry about having enough food to eat or worse.

You just don't get it because of your comfort, just as she never will from her place of great wealth that goes well beyond mere comfort at this point.

If a clue could be bought, perhaps she and you might have one by now,

[MaggieD]

150. I don't believe that is true at all

And I see no evidence that it is true.

[Dragonfli]

152. So you do not believe she has accumulated great wealth and think she is still "broke"

You are pretty deep in denial.
Possibly clinically so.

[MaggieD]

153. No, I don't believe it wasn't stressful to be millions in debt

[beam me up scottie]

154. Keep digging.

[cali]

158. what part of a 2 million dollar estate, unlimited earning potential, a sizeable pension,

health insurance, money for staff, and more, don't you understand?

[MaggieD]

161. She borrowed for her home just like anyone else

I hear Bernie has two of them. So why is that a problem?

And how does any of the rest make millions in debt less stressful? Or less broke? Are you saying ex-presidents shouldnt get a pension or Secret Service protection?

[beam me up scottie]

163. People living in vans can't borrow millions for a home.

This isn't about Bernie, you compared a homeless DUer to millionaires.

[cali]

174. you really, truly don't get it. They aren't like everyone else

Last edited Tue Aug 25, 2015, 08:00 PM - Edit history (1)

And that in and of itself is not a bad thing. Her comment just made her look out of touch.

And Bernie has a one bedroom apt. in D.C. and a regular middle class house in Burlington.

And no, I'm most certainly not saying they shouldn't have what they have.

[MaggieD]

179. Why the personal attack

.... Simply because you disagree with me? A Hillary supporter calling a Bernie supporter "clueless" would get a hide in a heartbeat.

[cali]

184. it is not a personal attack. if you prefer I'll change it to

You really, really don't show any understanding

[MaggieD]

186. I DO understand

I moved out of my house at the age of 17 due to abuse, and couch surfed while working 60 hours a week at minimum wage jobs. Even after I could afford an apartment I worked those minimum wage jobs for 6 years to get myself through college.

It was hard. I just don't see how being millions and millions in debt would have been any less stressful.

[cali]

190. it is always less stressful knowing you have a safety net. that simpler

And a 2 million.dollar house to move into.

[MaggieD]

193. I don't think that's true

... When you're in the moment. They were they're own safety nets at that point. They dug themselves out of the debt the rethugs had deliberately put them in.

Is that your reasoning for inferring she lied when she said she was dead broke? That she had the ability to climb out? I had faith in myself too, but that didn't make me any less broke at the time.

[Ed Suspicious]

227. They could always have filed bankruptcy, sold

their property and gone on the dole so long as they turned on their two job searches per week. Even if they did, average joe has no light at the end of that tunnel. The Clintons had powerful friends in high places. There was zero chance the missed out on any level of the heirarchy of needs. None. Average poor and broke have to choise between food water and shelter. Medications? Yeah right. You seem to need a double shot of empathy.

[Vincardog]

187. Please enlighted me. When was Slick Willie "kicking republican ass"? Passing the end to Welfare?

Deregulating the banks?
Passing NAFTA?
Escalating the war on some drugs with the 3 strike rule and mandatory minimums?
Please tell me how any of these help POC?

[MaggieD]

188. SCHIP, lowering interest rates so....

.... People could afford homes, turning the Internet into a job creation machine, cutting military spending, expanding pell grants - the list is long.

What has Bernie done in 25 years?

[Vincardog]

192. since you seem incapable of responding to actual questions Ignore is my friend

[AgingAmerican]

220. He kicked their ass

For all his faults, Bill Clinton stood with the working class when it mattered. He owned the Republicans at every turn and made fools of them when he passed his budgets with their shutting down the government. He called all their stupid bluffs and won pretty much every fight he had with them.

[frylock]

137. I used to maximize my meals by pouring a can of soup over some rice when I was dead broke..

Of course, I was lucky to have that soup and rice, and a place to heat it up. I can't envision the Clinton's ever having to resort to that.

[beam me up scottie]

139. I lived on ramen noodles.

I wonder if they ever had to.

[frylock]

140. ten for a buck

[beam me up scottie]

142. I bet they don't even know what food costs at a grocery store.

Not saying that there's anything wrong with being rich but they are out of touch.

[Dragonfli]

160. The same! (or sometimes beans in the rice with a flavor cube instead of soup)

The best way I know how to stretch a couple of dollars from taking back bottles and cans.
It gets a bit boring after a time however.

Luckily, I finally managed with the collective help of many neighbors to get a room and legal address and eventually received EBT. Get to mix it up a bit now, but contrary to popular belief food stamps leave an extremely tight food budget that requires quite a bit of rice and beans still (never learned the trick of eating lobster and steak as staples of a food stamp diet, that must happen in some other state, perhaps a state named bullshit).

[cali]

25. you can have any opinion you wish.

And so can I. I'm also free to correct you on facts. I actually do think there are legitmate reasons to not support Bernie, but you always manage to come up with illegitimate ones.

[bettyellen]

34. It's not funny. This is what Sanders should have learned from Ferguson if he'd been paying attention

Instead he suggested Mike Brown needed higher education. Which was fucking clueless.
Thank god he is starting to get it.

[questionseverything]

42. what was needed is the 200 bucks to pay the fine

in the example the folks gave bernie

[bettyellen]

47. That is a band aid on a bigger issue- jailing people for parking tickets! Disturbing to see it's

Suggested that people would argue in support of the system and tell people they should just have more money. Sorry- that is ass backwards.

[questionseverything]

71. i am not aurguing to support this system

just pointing out when you are sitting in jail for lack of 200 bucks it is an economic issue

[bettyellen]

115. Nope- the constitutional issue is greater- and would be a quicker fix than waiting for people to

Amass wealth, for fucks sake. I cannot believe you think people SHOULD just shut up and pay the money. That's as idiotic as suggesting women just get on airplanes to get their abortions. Shot like that would wipe out any financial gains they make.

[questionseverything]

229. i swear i read here on du that blm was upset that sanders was concentrating on financial matters

when they want him to concentrate on civil rights matters...i am simply trying to show they are related

while i find the jailing of citizens for non violent crimes unconstitutional,unfortunately i do not get to decide...once a judge orders a person to pay if that person does not pay they can be jailed

[cali]

43. I'm obviously not laughing about that.

And you are distorting what he is saying. I think he gets it in a way very few white people do- and in a way the clueless, morally rudderless Hillary never has and never fucking will.

[bettyellen]

53. How do you distort Sanders saying he had no idea? Seriously?!!

He is not well versed in the issues going on in Ferguson. And suggestions like the one above- go earn the 200$ and there's no problem- are emblematic of the thoughtlessness going on here.

[cali]

60. I'm sorry but that one clip does not support your claim

[Agschmid]

70. It does on some level...

Sanders literally says "honestly it's an issue I was not aware of until [garbled]...)

That's literally what the man himself said.

[bettyellen]

101. Thank you. It's unreal the flat out denial of ANY flaws that goes on.

Like it or not- Sanders is learning a lot about the issues right now, and that is awesome. These details are just fucking weird.

[GoneFishin]

199. "... he suggested Mike Brown needed higher education". What was the context? Link?

[cali]

17. yes it is. And hardly the first from the op.

[arcane1]

130. It's not clever enough to be flame-bait n/t

[beam me up scottie]

21. Looks like Hillary should be taking a cue from Bernie and Martin:

Doesn't look like she cares enough to address the issues that started the BLM movement.

So much for her "listening" tour.

Is there anyone here who doesn't realize why they're asking the candidates to take a stand and not just pretend to care?

[MaggieD]

36. "Campaign Zero" needs to do more research

Although it may be just astroturf from the BS crowd as well.

[beam me up scottie]

40. So they're either ignorant or working for Bernie?

And you accuse Bernie of not paying attention?

Wow.

[cali]

46. unbelievable. And you have the gall to lecture Sanders supporters about BLM

And criminal justice issues that devastate the black community. You are making a serious allegation that is patently garbage and for which you have not a shred of evidence,out of pique.

[beam me up scottie]

51. She just let the mask slip.

I'm actually glad she showed her true colours.

Black lives only matter when they can be used against Bernie.

[hootinholler]

61. It would seem

That she has friends in that category as well.

[beam me up scottie]

75. I thought some of them might criticize Campaign Zero but to accuse them of this...

Just wow.

[short circuit]

85. just stunned.

If that is the typical Hillary voter, no thank you.

[beam me up scottie]

91. I can't believe others in this thread aren't calling her out over this.

The same ones who screamed bloody murder when some of Bernie's supporters questioned BLM's motives.

[cali]

107. of course not. HYPOCRISY writ large.

[MoveIt]

183. 6 recs is as close to "shunning" as they'll get

[MaggieD]

240. I'm not running to win a popularity contest

[MoveIt]

242. Just trying to give HRC supporters some credit

I'm giving the other HRC supporters credit for not recommending an OP with wild accusations of BLM activists being secret Sanders supporters.

[cali]

87. that happened long ago. you most have missed

the real jaw droppers a couple of months ago.

[beam me up scottie]

88. I probably did.

She's been on involutary vacation for as long as I can remember.

[MoveIt]

177. Who thinks they actually believe the shit they post?

Is there an HRC supporter leaderboard where they can see who amongst them has made the most outlandish claims?

[beam me up scottie]

178. They should have a contest.

Among the claims of Bernie having rape fantasies, gun humping and being a racist there's some stiff competition.

And they should get some sort of prize for swift boating a Dem candidate.

[frylock]

97. garbage in, garbage out

[hootinholler]

55. Campaign Zero is astroturf built by Bernie?

Oh wait, you're serious!

Even. More. Funny.

[MaggieD]

58. I think it's a subset of Bernie supporters

... that also seem to be self appointed leaders of BLM. Their chart is incorrect, so how else do you explain it?

[hootinholler]

62. Not my job to explain anything to you

It's your conspiracy theory / performance art piece.

I'm just pointing and laughing.



Oh, thanks for doubling down on the notion.

[MaggieD]

73. Why do you feel the need to personally attack me....

... simply because I don't agree with you?

[hootinholler]

81. I'm not attacking you

I'm attacking the preposterous notion that you presented.

[cali]

113. please post any evidence that your attack on black activists has any connection to reality.

[MaggieD]

117. What attack on Black Activists?

You mean that saying that chart is inaccurate? It is. That's not an attack on anyone.

[cali]

165. uh, you theorized that they're astroturf for Bernie's campaign. that is an ugly attack

[GoneFishin]

200. So you think that AA are not smart enough to create an accurate chart?

[frylock]

98. So point out the inconsistencies in their chart, if you'd be so kind.

[cali]

109. way to double down, trashing black activists for purely political reasons, mags

Talk about obvious.

[virtualobserver]

65. So the Campaign ZERO Ferguson activists don't know what they are talking about?

You are calling them astroturfers?

[beam me up scottie]

92. Educate yourself: Campaign Zero: A 'Blueprint for Ending Police Violence'

Campaign Zero: A 'Blueprint for Ending Police Violence'

?itok=lfT9INao


On Friday, activists with the country's growing racial justice movement unveiled a new campaign to end police violence, bridging protester demands with data and policy to create structural solutions to the crisis that has gripped national attention for more than a year.

Launched as an online manifesto with an interactive website, Campaign Zero proposes new federal, state, and local laws that would address police violence and reform the criminal justice system—including demilitarizing law enforcement, increasing community oversight, limiting use-of-force, and requiring independent investigation and prosecution of police violence cases.

"More than one thousand people are killed by police every year in America," the group states on its website. "Nearly sixty percent of victims did not have a gun or were involved in activities that should not require police intervention such as harmless 'quality of life' behaviors or mental health crises."

The action plan also incorporates recommendations by the President's Task Force on 21st Century Policing as well as those of research organizations like the Center for Popular Democracy. The architects behind Campaign Zero characterized it as a project that will continue to develop over time as new solutions emerge and more supporters come on board.

http://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/08/21/campaign-zero-blueprint-ending-police-violence

[frylock]

96. talk like that would have you labeled as insensitive to their plight..

wow. what a difference a few short weeks and a confrontation with your candidate of choice makes.

[cali]

110. it is insensitive.

[ecstatic]

27. It is troubling, but I'm glad he appears to be listening and

taking it all in. He still has a long way to go, which is surprising since I learned that he's originally from Brooklyn New York, which is a lot more diverse than Vermont.

[cali]

28. what on earth is troubling about that video?

[ecstatic]

31. That a man of his age and experience was that out of touch.

But again, I'm glad he's listening now. It's never too late to learn. I hope his supporters are listening / learning too.

[Control-Z]

32. How is it possible he didn't already know this?

It's been in the news and talked about at length. I'm glad he's aware now but have to wonder how many other democratic leaders don't know.

ETA: I don't wonder about republicans because they wouldn't care anyway.

[MaggieD]

33. That's what I'm saying....

I was dumbfounded by his statement in this video. SMH.

[magical thyme]

54. Probably most of them don't know

It's discussed extensively here at DU, but it's not reported at any news that I've read at length or at all.

I've learned about it here on DU.

[Control-Z]

205. I actually never read about it on DU.

Last edited Tue Aug 25, 2015, 10:01 PM - Edit history (1)

I had a heavy workload at the time and heard it on several TV news programs that I kept on for background noise while working.

[magical thyme]

50. I think Bernie has done this his whole career...

and I don't think Hillary's "listening tours" which have been invitation only and very limited as to who gets to meet with her, serve as any "example."

I think I hear him say at the, "This is an issue I was unfamiliar with until I talked to your representatives." I don't know when he spoke with their representatives.

Understand, you will NOT find this issue in the northeast, which is why this is a new issue to many of us. There probably are other parts of the country where it doesn't happen.

I only learned about this issue on DU. I haven't seen anything about it outside of DU. It was totally shocking to me when I read about it here.

[MaggieD]

59. You didn't see anything about the DOJ Ferguson report....

.... outside of DU? Really? I find that hard to believe unless you are boycotting all forms of media.

[magical thyme]

77. I live rurally, I don't have tv or cable, I spend too much time on DU

and when I'm not crashing and burning (on DU), I'm working or taking care of my home.

I read about things on DU, follow the links, read the articles.

I'm just this summer starting to have more time off. I've been more focussed on surviving -- hanging by a thread really -- for the last 5 years, than anything else.

I only broke down and got high speed internet last year, when I swapped out my landline for a tracfone.

I pretty much do boycott much of media, especially mainstream. The only print newspaper I get is a local, free weekly. I do occasionally see other newspapers at work, but still pretty small and rural.

Since I moved up here (rural Maine), the only POC I see are mostly at work because I don't socialize at all.

I fell out of "normal" society 15 years ago when my career crashed and burned. I've never really found my way back in and now I have no desire to.

[beam me up scottie]

104. You don't even know about Campaign Zero and you're claiming others don't know about Ferguson?

[MaggieD]

116. Where did you get the idea I don't know who Campaign Zero is?

[beam me up scottie]

119. From your post #36 where you called them clueless shills for Bernie, where else?:

MaggieD (3,162 posts)

36. "Campaign Zero" needs to do more research

Although it may be just astroturf from the BS crowd as well.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=545849

[riversedge]

66. In reading the comments--it seems that SC Bernie fans do not know that Hillary does Town Halls

listens and asks question --all along (except for her big one in NYC).

[MaggieD]

74. I guess they don't know that....

But it is one of the things that make her such a good candidate, IMO.

[virtualobserver]

78. they have also read that she coaches and plants questions in the crowd

which is like talking to yourself.

[RoccoR5955]

86. Give me a freakin break

Bernie has been listening to voters for MORE THAN THIRTY YEARS!!!!!

[left-of-center2012]

90. no, this is NOT flamebait

Well, thank goodness for clearing that up.

[tech3149]

93. Your post makes it pretty obvious you haven't been listening to Bernie for the last decade

He has been doing an hourly segment every week for at least that long. Taking calls and questions from an uncensored public. Are there any other candidates who can boast that level of interaction with the public?
Bernie's' lack of putting BLM and police abuse of power front and center is not giving an honest interpretation of what he has spent his whole life working for.
Those two issues are at the core of what he has worked to correct but it's counterproductive to focus a major issue within a narrow framework.
Another bigger picture understanding is that NO single politician can undo hundreds of years of racial bias through legislation. You can't change hearts and minds through legislation.
What you can do is eliminate the institutionalized racism by correcting policies that allow taking advantage of those with less political or economic power.
I'm sure I'll get shit for this but if you can correct some of the economic butt fucking we have all had to endure, we might just have the space to understand that the guy next to you isn't the problem regardless of the color of his skin.

[beam me up scottie]

100. Video of Bernie speaking at SCLC in July:

[sadoldgirl]

105. Why are you concerned about it at all?

You have chosen your candidate, who would not
be effected by this.

Okay, then your concern has been noted.

If not a flame bait, then very DIVISIVE!

[MuseRider]

114. Clue? Nope, not a one.

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[libdem4life]

118. This is goofy. I'll bet if you asked HRC if she knew about CDOs and tranches,

she'd have the same look. At least I hope she would. Silliness.

[Gothmog]

125. Welcome back

[GitRDun]

132. On the positive side

I like that he just says he was honestly not familiar with the issue. I know he should be, but at least he's not a Republican.

These kinds of things are Bernie's challenge. He can overcome over the next few months, but he really needs to get up to speed.

It will be the difference between winning and losing for him.

[MaggieD]

143. Seems like a pretty big issue

.....for him to just be learning about it now.

[Armstead]

138. I'm sure glad Sanders has stopped hobnobbing with the wealthy...

glad he has stepped outside of the elite bubble of DC/Wall St. he lives in. Glad he hass gotten off the golf links, and no longer has martinis with his friends at Goldman Sachs......

Maybe if he leave his privileged circle of Oligarch's that he surrounds himself with, he'll venture outside to hear what real people whp donl;t make $400,000 a speech think. He's been so insulated all these years.

[MaggieD]

144. He could have known about this issue.....

.... just by doing the job he is already being paid to do. Or picking up a newspaper.

[Armstead]

157. You are distorting a lifetime of work on these issues because of a few holes of knowledge about...

specific situations in locations.

You claim to want a valid discussion. But you focus on one time he had a reaction that was an honest bit of startlment at one aspects of a much larger picture -- which he has addressed on many levels over the years.


Jezum. It;s like calling someone who holds a home-run record a lousy ballplayer if he has an occasional strike out or foul ball.

If you would bother to actually look at Sanders record,public statements, life and political experiences over the years, there is no way in hell you can claim that he is oblivious to these issues or "out of touch"with what people are going through.

[MuseRider]

169. He IS doing his job

he is out talking to people every day. WTF do you think he is doing? Schmoozing in the gym making deals or having parties for Wall Street and Banking donors? The man is traveling all over the country to talk to people, I doubt he has much of a chance to even read a paper or watch the news. If he did not know he needs to get the staffers to keep him up. That would be the only fault I could even think of here. Jesus I could not do what he does and keep up with it.

Good lord, don't you ever look outside your room and see that he is earning this with his own sweat and blood? Do you want someone who will go to the mat for you or someone who will snap their fingers and get he and she to help you maybe?

Really, you should stop. At first I thought you were naïve now it is just getting pitiful.

[ancianita]

145. You have serious misgivings because he can't be on top of everything? No one in that video had

misgivings -- because they cared that he listened and responded. They just didn't say, "our legal system aids and abets the criminalizing of poverty," which would have immediately clicked with him, perhaps. But. This has little or nothing to do with cues from Hillary.

By "having misgivings" you're casting shade based on one event. There are many such events happening across 50 states in the third biggest country on the planet.

For me and others, you'll have to do better to justify any "serious misgivings" about Sanders. What are the other "reasons like these." Or are you fishing.

All the while, provide yet another thread that -- under cover of "a right to have an opinion about that on a site like DU" -- feeds into the divisiveness of insinuating candidate deficits, shade casting on posters who go for or defend one or the other candidate.

edit: All right, I'll answer your answer...

[MaggieD]

151. I think it's a huge issue for him to be clueless about, yes

Like I said, I doubt there is one true liberal on FB or DU that was ignorant of what he apparently was not aware of. Not really concerned what 10 people in a room thought. Nor did they say what they thought.

Don't you think a presidential candidate should have read the publicly available Ferguson report at the very least?

[ancianita]

162. Know why they're more aware than he? Because they are not out there running a campaign.

Daily briefings about national and international issues, yes.

Briefings about 50 different legal jurisdictions' practices, no.

There's nothing clueless listening, learning and thinking about what voters tell you. Notice all the praise about his approach in the Comments posts?

Implying that not having perfect command of every campaign stop's issues says way more about you than it does about Bernie.

Watch for the pattern of this to make your case. You really haven't yet, and I'm waiting to see what else you come up with.

Remember Obama's "57 states" comment? Inside your own party, don't be like those people.

I'm ready to defend Hillary against all Republican attackers. Are you ready to do the same for Bernie?

[Armstead]

166. Bernie Sanders is stupid and uninformed and doesn't know or care about issues

There, I just saved you some time on posting.

Rinse and repeat.

[beam me up scottie]

168. You should add the sarcasm smilie or the alerters will get your post hidden.

It's a sport now, I've served on juries where the alerter lied about the post they were alerting on.

[Armstead]

170. I hope the sarcasm is so obvious it doesn't need

one.

And if they want to hide it for lack of a large red sign to inform them, then let 'em hide it. They'd hide it anyway.

I've only had one post hidden on DU in 14 years.....If I'm going to blemish my record, it might as well be for a good cause.

[beam me up scottie]

172. Well I'm hoping any jurors will read my response to you and see through any attempt to hide it.

[MaggieD]

185. Never said that

As I've said repeatedly my opinion is that he's not one to listen much. I believe he has his own ideas and doesn't seek information because he is convinced he already knows all he needs to know.

That's a much bigger problem than being "stupid" and I don't think he is stupid.

[Armstead]

189. If he didn't listen or care, he would have cashed in long ago

Toned down his message, become a nice nebbishy Congressman/Senator, get a nice cushy lobbyist job and enjoyed his retirement in the hills of Vermont.

Or he could have gotten on his haunches and done a Sista Soljah on BLM, and had a nice polite "centrist" message and avoid the subject of the concentration of wealth and the excessive power of Wall St. and Big Banks.

I really don't care what candidate you support, or what specific policy, message or position you might disagree with Sanders about, or raise here on DU.

But I truly object to you helping to push false memes about someone who has basically spent his whole life standing up for and with average people and the disadvantaged and minorities and women.

[beam me up scottie]

191. ^^^ THIS ^^^

But I truly object to you helping to push false memes about someone who has basically spent his whole life standing up for and with average people and the disadvantaged and minorities and women.

[MaggieD]

206. Actually if he cared about others opinions....

He would know this stuff. I didn't say he didn't care about people, period. I said he thinks he knows all he needs to know.

[Armstead]

212. whatever

not going around this circle anymore

[MoveIt]

204. oh to be a fly on the wall

when this meme was workshopped... LOL

[MaggieD]

208. I got the vid off a Bernie supporter FB page

Who is a friend of mine. She shared the video. Not a "meme" - sorry.

[MoveIt]

211. thanks!

It's ridiculous on it's face but you probably got that from the reactions to this thread.

[MaggieD]

213. What's "ridiculous on its face" ???

Did he not say, in the video, that he was unaware of it?

[beam me up scottie]

216. How about your claim that Campaign Zero is astroturfing for Bernie?

Still haven't answered for that and I gave you a link to an article about them.

[MaggieD]

219. I answered others on that

I don't think I'm obligated to repeat myself multiple times in the same thread.

[beam me up scottie]

221. Where did you back up your claim?

I just checked and I can't find it.

Link?

[MoveIt]

217. " Is Bernie taking a cue from Hillary?"

The title of this OP, is silly, flamebait despite your protestations otherwise.

[MaggieD]

218. I disagree

I think it's a completely legit concern, and I'm far from the first person to notice this a out Bernie. YMMV.

[beam me up scottie]

209. They had lots of time to create it.

When you're on a time out from posting you have to find something to do with all that free time.

[MaggieD]

222. When I'm not on time out for daring to criticize Bernie....

And support Hillary instead? How progressive is that? Why is it wrong to have a different opinion than you?

[beam me up scottie]

223. Sure, lol! That's why your posts were hidden, for "criticizing" Bernie.

What about all of the time outs you got before Bernie supporters hijacked DU and padded the juries?

[MaggieD]

225. I didn't have any prior to that

[beam me up scottie]

226. No hidden posts?

Or just time outs?

[MaggieD]

230. Nope - not a single one

[beam me up scottie]

231. And none of your posts "criticizing" Bernie deserved to be hidden?

[MaggieD]

232. Nope

Not a one.

[beam me up scottie]

233. LMAO!!!

You had me going, Maggie, I actually thought you were serious for a minute there...

[cali]

239. lol. unbelievable.

[MaggieD]

181. That's a MAJOR current issue

Major. And IMO you'd have to be living in a huge bubble to not be aware of it prior to that vid being taken.

[Thinkingabout]

176. I like the way Hillary is handling her campaign, by having townhall meetings, she is able to hear

what those attending are concerned with, to respond accordingly. She also delivers her policies during these meetings. It gives a better opportunity for people to be closer to the candidate.

[AgingAmerican]

197. No, he isn't a weather vane

But thanks for trying.

[HassleCat]

201. Have any come right out and said it?

Have any of the candidates publicly stated what we know to be true? That black people get cited for a broken tail light, then have the SWAT team come to their home when they fail to get it fixed? I know all the candidates have their staff people review stuff like the Ferguson report, but which of them has come out publicly and said what you just said?

[MaggieD]

202. That's not the issue here

The issue is him apparently having no clue the problem existed.

[HassleCat]

207. OK, but you said he apparently got clued in

So what is he doing about it? How about the other candidates?

[MaggieD]

210. He said it - not me

"I wasn't aware of that" - direct quote from Bernie.

[wendylaroux]

214. oh maggie

[hootinholler]

228. BWAHAHAHA!

You're trying to spin Bernie being Bernie into what?

Bernie has been listening to people his entire career. He does these town halls everywhere.

That Bernie wasn't aware of the particular issue before that is a little surprising to me, but judging from his reaction it will probably end up as an example in a stump speech.

The notion that he's taking a leaf from Hillary's book is completely absurd. This is what he does, always has done and it's why I know we need him in the white house.

BTW, I a little surprised that no one has chastised you for using the term ragging on. A bit misogynistic, eh? I figured some here would be all over that.

[sibelian]

237. "I have a right to have an opinion"....

How many times do you pseudopoliticals have to be told?

It doesn't matter whether you have a "right" to an opinion, no right to your opinion protects you from being told it's shit.

I can't believe I have to keep saying this. It's like you think stating things means you're entitled to an expectation of being agreed with all the time. It's utter nonsense.

[MoveIt]

243. Wyclef Jean, Canibus - Gone Till November

this one goes out to the OP

[Capt. Obvious]

244. Oh, don't mind me

I'm just swing by to check your transparency page.

It looks rather vanilla to me.