The script for this primary was written years ago.

[cali]

Last edited Tue Aug 11, 2015, 03:49 PM - Edit history (1)

I know it angers most of my fellow Sanders supporters, but that's how I see it. The party power brokers and the money people have a firm grip on the process. From the DNC to every major think tank affiliated with the party, to such media outlets as think progress and media matters, the power brokers are united behind HRC. They are acting in concert and are well coordinated. Short a serious health problem, HRC will be the nominee. And I believe, Jeb will be the republican nominee. It doesn't matter that the republican base can't stand Jeb. They couldn't stand Mitt either.

It's all about the money. For a variety of reasons, I don't like the word oligarchy, but as Jimmy Carter said recently, that's where we are.

Yes, all of the excitement and enthusiasm is about Sanders, but the money and power is all Clinton's. She isn't a good campaigner but that doesn't matter. Jeb isn't a good campaigner, but that doesn't matter either.

We are living the illusion of a fair race, but a system that is as awash with special interest money as ours is, is by definition an unfair system.

None of that means that I'm not enthusiastic about sanders' candidacy and that I don't see it as both meaningful. I do. The more people tuning into his message, the better. And lest you think this is ct shit, I'll remind you that Martin O'Malley is saying much the same thing. Carter was blunter, and many, many other credible people are saying it too. Quite simply, our democracy is broken and corrupt.

Yes, HRC is better than jeb or any other of mind boggling awful republicans, but I say that as faint praise indeed. I'm not going to say more than that.

I will point out that for all the complaints about Sanders supporters I see a lot more ugliness currently from HRC supporters here on DU. Clinton supporters are the ones in the catbird seat. They're backing the odds on favorite. And yes, Hillary will need the the folks some Clinton supporters are calling white supremacists if she's going to win. You may think she's a shoe in, but that's a grave mistake.


Btw, bookmakers think jeb will be the nominee too. Bush v Clinton.is unlikely to be a high voter turnout election.

http://lasvegassun.com/news/2015/aug/06/find-out-whos-las-vegas-favorite-gop-nomination/

[BooScout]

1. LOL

"I will point out that for all the complaints about Sanders supporters I see a lot more ugliness currently from HRC supporters here on DU."

Seriously? The Bernie supporters have run off most of the Hillary supporters with their own 'ugliness' IMHO. Look around you. How many Hillary supporters do you see any more? Most of us are just waiting for Hillary to win the nomination so we can get back to more important things like taking on and beating whatever clown the GOP puts up.

[cali]

2. yes. undoubtedly.

[Puglover]

44. LOL

You just made me LOL. Perfect response.

[bobbobbins01]

4. Yup, at least the Bernie supporters point to record.

And when you compare the volume of supporters on this site, you'd think it would be all Bernie all the time, but instead its having to constantly defend him from the extremely vocal minority around here spreading BS.

[Stallion]

13. BINGO!!

don't want to get all worked up around here about a preseason exhibition game that doesn't count in the standings. Besides I like Bernie but I also want a Democrat in the White House more. Hillary is going to win this nomination easily because she is the best, most electable candidate for the majority of Democrats. Americans have about 25 candidates to choose from across the wide spectrum of political thought. Its not a conspiracy-individuals will pull a lever and when its over Clinton will have the most delegates

[artislife]

25. I have to agree with Cali. Nt

[Joe the Revelator]

70. The same type of Hillary supporters that ran off and 'created' the PUMA party in '08

The real question is, why so much thin skin?

[demwing]

88. Winning a single election over victory in a political war

that's what Hillary represents to many here. At some point we have to have the conversation about when we must, finally, fight that war.

Why not now, on our own terms?

[el_bryanto]

3. Well said, if depressing. nt

[cali]

8. thanks, e-b.

[BuelahWitch]

5. Yes, I remember what the Democratic Party did to Howard Dean

and he was a registered Democrat. Given that, I am still going to support Bernie as much as I can and as long as I can, no matter how "inevitable" Clinton is.

[blue neen]

61. Look what they're doing to Howard Dean right here on DU:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251512176

[BuelahWitch]

62. Dean thinks he is going to get a job in the Clinton admin

by kissing their ass, when in actuality they and their pal Rahm helped to bring him down. I've lost respect for him too.

[blue neen]

63. So, you were for Howard Dean before you were against him.

Alrighty then.

[BuelahWitch]

64. I'd explain it, but I don't think you'd understand...n/t

[blue neen]

65. Au contraire.

I understand perfectly.

[Maedhros]

6. All too true.

We will have to work harder than ever to give Bernie a chance - and he does have a chance! But we knew this would be an uphill fight going in.

"Oh, you only fight the fights you can win? You fight the fights that need fighting!"

-A. J. MacInerney, The American President, 1995

[artislife]

26. This is why we all have to come out in droves

Kind of like what we have been doing and get him the nom, and then the white house. We cannot sit back on this.

[Skwmom]

7. Fostering discouragement is also part of the plan.

And never forget: The best laid plains of mice and men often go awry.

[azmom]

43. You got that right.

Bernie for the win!!!

[senz]

67. + 1

Now is not the time to roll over/ give in. This time it matters more than ever. This is when we dig in with everything we've got.

[Cleita]

9. Bookmakers aside, I believe the Republican will be Scott Walker and here is why.

He has the full backing and banking of the Koch brothers. He is actually a savvy campaigner and knows exactly what bull shit to spread and where. He's not above any tactic or lie to get elected, a totally corrupt politician. Even Jeb is not as corrupt.

Now it's known that Bernie is not in the DNC insiders club and common wisdom is that only the insiders will eventually become the nominee. Hillary is the insider so she's the favored candidate. You only need to look at the last fifteen years of how Democrats became the candidate and it's always been the insider.

But in every horse race there is always the chance of the long shot, a horse that has been in the background but reliable in performance, but not very well known as the stars are. I believe Bernie will be that long shot if he survives the dirty tricks that will be thrown at him. He seems to have won just about every political race he's participated in as a long shot. That has been his record. If I were at the race track and looking at a horse's past wins even though other horses had better odds, I would put a bet on that horse.

[senz]

68. I agee, for all the reasons you've given.

Sounds like you could be a fellow Hartmann fan.

[Cleita]

72. I am.

But even Hartmann doesn't think like I do.

[senz]

73. Same here.

I like him immensely. Good man doing a good job for good causes. But I don't agree with him on everything, either. Which is ok.

[mmonk]

10. Maybe she will win but here is the remaining problem.

They are dead wrong in saying we no longer need the walls of separation from investment banking, commercial banking, and insurance sector or regulation of the 10 trillion dollar derivatives market that can tank the nation again. They just are. I really don't care if any politicians lose the money from the banking industry for their campaigns or a golden parachute retirement for doing their bidding.

[ibegurpard]

11. Oh I fully believe the DNC will work against Bernie

If he manages to pull.this off. We have a long way to go until Iowa.

[Cali_Democrat]

12. The primary voters will decide

Unlike Republicans, Democratic primary voters are well-informed and smart.

Dem primary voters will choose the best candidate just like we did in 2008.

[leftynyc]

14. Citizens United will be the death

of this country unless it's repealed. That said, anyone who calls Bernie Sanders a white supremacist is an asshole and should be banned. So should anyone calling Hillary Queen Hillary.

[DanTex]

15. If you see a lot more ugliness from the HRC supporters, then you are blind.

Seriously. Not a day goes by without all sorts of absurd Hillary-bashing. Well, except when BLM protestors interrupt Bernie, at which point the hateful wrath of angry white progressives turns to whoever dared suggest that Bernie and his supporters aren't sufficiently mindful of racial justice issues. Not to mention that every single hiccup in the Bernie campaign is attributed to some kind of evil conspiracy by Hillary apparatchiks.

Oh, and I have yet to see a single Hillary supporter insist on not voting if Bernie wins the nomination, but the converse occurs regularly and gets plenty of recs.

And on the other hand, the mildest criticism of Bernie is treated like heresy.

I'll give you credit for one thing, though. Unlike most Bernie supporters, you are not deluded about his very low chances of winning the nomination. Yes, Hillary is going to win. Why? Because most Democrats like and support her. She's got a good platform, a lot of experience, and is clearly the best positioned to beat the GOP next fall.

No conspiracies needed.

[murielm99]

30. Good post.

I am surprised no one has alerted on it yet.

[bigtree]

16. where's the groundswell of republican support for Jeb?

...the Trump candidacy could take on a life of its own if voters begin to believe he could win. He has the money and all the free media coverage he can conjure with his willingness to say anything. The effect of a Trump victory in the primary campaign could lead the middle voters to back off of the republican vote and give a huge advantage to the Democratic nominee.

As for Sanders/Hillary, there's still a 30+ polling deficit for Sanders nationally to make up if the Vermont Senator is to assume a lead somewhere in the primary contest.

[jeff47]

29. Look more to the early states than to national polls.

The results from IA, NH, SC and NV will massively color the results from Super Tuesday, which will massively color the results from every other primary.

Do they show Sanders winning? No or not yet, depending on your preferred candidate. But it'll be more reliable than national polls.

[jwirr]

54. As long as Trump is ahead his ego will keep him in. And I do not see anyone else pulling abead at

the moment. Can you imagine President Trump?

[Bjorn Against]

17. Yes, the script was written years ago but Bernie was never written into it

I don't think anyone anticipated just how much Bernie would bring them off script. I have always loved Bernie but even I did not think he would ever gain any traction when he entered the race, but he proved me wrong and I could not be happier that he did. Bernie still has a big uphill battle ahead of him, but I firmly believe that he has a real shot at the nomination.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

18. Yep. And, it was written on checks and contracts.

Democracy this isn't but it makes for nice commercials.

[panader0]

19. Yeah, the script was written long ago

by big money, but sometimes scripts can be tossed and the action ad-libbed. The posts I've seen today about
Sanders "plateau-ing" are absurd after the crowds he just drew on the West Coast. He is rising and he is fueling a very
necessary dialogue about income equality. I don't think that, say, 12 years ago, there was a script that had a black
man with a strange name as POTUS. But it happened. I too am enthusiastic about Bernie's candidacy. I'll be sending a few
more bucks soon.
I refuse to wade into the surreal swamp that DU has become lately during this run up to the primaries. Bernie hasn't
done it in his campaign. He doesn't go negative--another great trait. Oh yeah--fuck the bookmakers.

[brooklynite]

20. Well, blaming "them" in advance is always a good excuse...

...if somewhat tiring to hear.

[sibelian]

21. Sometimes it is in fact "their" fault, brooklynite.

[cali]

23. tell it to jimmy Carter. And as you openly declare you are a money power broker, well...

[brooklynite]

24. ...who has never objected to Bernie Sanders running for President...

...nor have any of my friends or political acquaintances.

I think the problem is that too many of the Sanders supporters can't get around the fact that many democrats actually LIKE Hillary Clinton as a candidate. You'd think that the 18 million votes she got last time (with all her "baggage" intact) would be a sign...

[cali]

27. wow. read the op with a modicum of comprehension

I said nothing about anyone objecting to his running. I think you're utterly clueless. Btw, as you well know my sentiments about Hillary have zip to do with my Bernie. I've been writing about why I think she's awful for over a decade here.

[brooklynite]

35. I indeed read the OP, and my assessment remains the same...

...it appears that some of the Sanders people have decided people couldn't POSSIBLY support Clinton, so the only reason they're not supporting Sanders is that there's an evil conspiracy to hide the news about Sanders (even though he shows up regularly on Sunday morning, his rallies have been in the news everywhere, etc.)

[dreamnightwind]

75. You go right on thinking that's what Sanders supporters believe

if it comforts you.

The truth is the monied establishment is all in fir Hillary, which is what the OP is about. For Sanders to win he will have to overcome that. He's doing better, by far, than expected, and personally I haven't been this politically excited ever, just haven't had a candidate Icould believe in to this degree. But it's a huge lift to elect Bernie over Hillary, I for one have no illusions about that. The DNC, the media, the corporations and wealthy individuals who bankroll campaigns, they're all pulling for Hillary on the Democratic side, that is irrefutable. Rather than let that discourage me, I let it inspire me to do more to get Bernie elected, he is worth it.

That doesn't preclude some of Hillary's support being from people who naturally prefer her as their candidate, it's a huge country with variant views. Nice strawman though.

[daleanime]

76. Doesn't hurt your neck?

[JoePhilly]

22. I remember when much of DU was demanding a primary opponent for Obama in 2011-2012.

There was no primary candidate anywhere in sight, but much of DU's "top liberals" were demanding it.

Obama was a corporate shill after all. Gonna kill Social Security. Blah blah blah.

I said then that the folks screaming about a primary opponent for Obama were wasting their time, and that they should get busy building up "sufficiently liberal" candidates for the 2016 election.

I predicted that if they did not do that, and do it quickly, by 2015 those same folks would be screaming about Hillary.

Well ... here we are.

[ibegurpard]

31. And we have a sufficiently liberal candidate

Running against her. Regardless of how this ends this fight will NOT be over.

[JoePhilly]

39. If people believed that ... he'd be doing better.

Rather than complain about conspiracies, the folks who have been the most vocal against Obama needed to get Bernie, and a few others alternatives more exposure.

Consider this, when did the Sanders group form on DU?? 2011?? Nope.

The anti Obama/ anti Hillary folks needed to be promoting Bernie and others a very long time ago.

Instead, they spent all their time screaming about how Obama was going to gut social security and invade Syria.

And they've been wrong in most of their anti Obama predictions.

Not they expect to be able to just say "feel the Bern", and utopia awaits.

[Number23]

66. "And they've been wrong in most of their anti Obama predictions".

You are very kind.

I'd say they were wrong about all of them. Particularly the ones that were made before he even took office.

Not that that's ever stopped some of these folks from screaming and tossing every insult they could think of at the man and his supporters, particularly the darker ones.

[JoePhilly]

86. Yup. Same folks.

[davidpdx]

77. It is not that easy to broad brush people as you try into groups

You certainly make it sound like those who are anti Obama and anti Hillary support Sanders

I have and always will support President Obama (despite some of the obnoxious statements made by a certain DUer)

I opposed Hillary Clinton's candidacy in 2008 and do not support her in 2016

In making my decision I looked at the other candidates and what their stances were and even waited several months before decided to choose to support Sanders

There are certainly SOME people who fall into the category you are talking about, but not everyone.

[JoePhilly]

84. I don't think it's every sanders supporter.

But the loudest and angriest sanders supporters are to a large degree the same folks who've been ripping Obama on DU from day one.

[jwirr]

55. So in your prediction did you foresee and way of getting the DNC, super-delegates, media etc.

to listen to the people? That is what is beating us now.

[JoePhilly]

83. Yet Obama beat Hillary and the evil DNC

in 2008.

Oh wait, I forgot, he's part of the conspiracy.

If you wait until a year before the election to start developing a candidate's national exposure, it's probably too late.

[jwirr]

90. If that is true then we are in BIG trouble. And if Obama had never been heard of before a year

ahead of the election he still would have won. He had a built in constituency - the black vote. And the black vote - as well as other minorities is very important - why else do you think the Rs are trying to suppress it?

Years ago I watched Washington get elected mayor in Chicago basically with the black vote. They came our for him because he was one of their own. Our candidates this year do not have that backup. Not even Hillary is guaranteed that. And Obama did get a lot of press exposure and we had debates. He had a way to get recognized.

Plus are you saying that if we had more and earlier debates that would not have made a difference right now? If you are you are dead wrong. That is how candidates and their positions get known. As to the press - internet has made a big difference so that probably is not as important anymore. At least to those who have computers.

During Bernie's July 29 meet up many Democratic Headquarters refused to take part. Do Wonder why that was? They are supposed to be working for all of us in the primary. They are not.

Conspiracy is something done in secret - most of what is being done now is right out in the open. As to Obama being part of the conspiracy - you said that. I personally think he is too busy working on running the country to take much time for an election that is almost a year away yet. I had not heard hat theory before.

[JoePhilly]

91. Ahhhh ....

... its the blacks.

I'm a white guy, and I voted for Obama over Hillary in 2008.

The time to start promoting Bernie for 2016 was 2011, not mid-2015. I'm not talking about debates now. Bernie needed to have a national presence long before now.

btw ... I've noticed that DU's most vocal anti-Obama folks are now some of the angriest anti-Hillary folks, and the loudest supporters of Sanders. I get the sense that many African Americans notice that too.

You claim African Americans mainly voted for Obama because he was black. I wonder if the same idea has crossed your mind with regard to women.

[jwirr]

92. Look of course there were white voter for Obama in 2008. But they were close - the black vote

made on hell of a difference.

Many of us did know about Bernie in 2011 and much further back. But even he never dreamed of running for president until no one else picked up the fight for the progressive side. Until the DLC started telling us that Hillary is inevitable.

Are you telling us that we want even longer election seasons? We should be wanting the exact opposite. And you are saying the Senators, Representative and Governors need not apply. Very few of them have a national presence. This idea is really limiting our choices. Maybe that is why we continue to lose.

Yeah, I guess one might think that Bernie supporters are anti-Obama but one might be wrong. Mostly that is really saying that we cannot disagree with him on anything or we are anti-Obama. Here I am thinking TPP.

As to black/women comparison. I have been watching elections since Eisenhower. In the past black voters did not come out in numbers enough to sway the elections. The first I remember is the Washington election in Chicago after the Voters Rights Act was passed. Now a lot of that had to do with voter suppression. And no one denies that the black vote in 2008 wasn't a significant part in Obama's win both in the primary and the general elections. They were and are now a power. Hopefully they can remain a power.

As to women I think most women vote on issues and while Hillary is for the women's issues so is Bernie and has been for many years. What Hillary does not assure women about is our economy. She even disagrees with raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour. I personally think that women are as worried about economic issues as they are about women's issues. That is why I am for Bernie. Women are also worried about other issues that Bernie is very strong in.

To me this is not a one issue election. There are so many important issues before us that no one is going to vote solely on one issue. Nor are they going to vote for someone who does not explain their position on those issues. Finally the voters are realizing that this is not a beauty contest. This is about the future of our country.

[djean111]

28. The thing is, I will never be able to summon up one microgram of enthusiasm for Hillary.

And what I am hearing from younger voters, like Redditors, is that Bernie's message is what makes them want to care about politics and vote, but Hillary is just same old stuff, why bother. (and stuff like crowing about all of her twitter followers, when TwitterAudit says around half are fake, is just an embarrassment for her campaign. Younger people notice this stuff. And it was stupid when Mitt did it.)
That "we can rebuild the Democratic Party" thing is such bullshit. The Third Way is intent on finishing their takeover.

[jeff47]

33. And that's why Clinton as the nominee is very dangerous for us.

While large parts of our side are "meh" about Clinton, the Republicans are foaming at the mouth to vote against Clinton.

Clinton makes it a tight race in the general election.

That doesn't mean Sanders or O'Malley would waltz to an easy win. They just wouldn't have to fight 30 years of absolute rage pointed at them.

[restorefreedom]

45. which is why bernie needs to be the nominee

hillary will not win a general. if wasserman schultz and the dnc machine gave a shit about this country they would not be rigging for a candidate who will lose to a republican.

[davidpdx]

79. Getting out the younger people is a key to winning the election and despite how some on DU

dismiss social media, that will be one of the ways to connect to them no matter who the nominee is.

[djean111]

80. Dismissing social media, and then kinda cheating on social media, shows, IMO, an inept contempt.

Dismiss it, but then brag about Twitter followers. Social media can be investigated - because, well, it is on the internet. It is not like a shiny mailer or TV ad, which is taken at face value, or tossed or clicked away from or DVR'd out of sight. And social media WILL be investigated, checked for accuracy. That's pretty much the first thing that happens. Somebody is likely investigating where anyone's facebook likes come from, too. Nature of the beast.

It is almost like some think that the internet is populated by Archie Bunkers and naifs. That's just a loyal base. And I don't think there is a guaranteed huge loyal base any more, at least not for Dems. Crowing about a big tent? Well the people in the tent don't turn into sheep when entering. Not any more. The power is going to be when a contemptuous "who else are they gonna vote for?" is met with Not You.

[davidpdx]

82. Well all I will say is it was a couple of older Clinton supporters who were laughing about

social media. They seem to put all their faith in getting older folks out. It will be shocking to them when they figure out that millennials are not as enthusiastic about also run corporatist.

[djean111]

87. My grandson says it would be a huge mistake for anyone who thinks that, say, the 85,500 (at present,

has doubled, I think, since a first started watching it a couple of months ago) Redditors who have signed up for Bernie's subreddit are for Bernie because of personality. They love what Bernie has to say. They love Warren, too. They will not transfer that support to someone who they consider the corporate old way of doing things. That is why the Bernie's too old thing is useless. They are not looking at Bernie's age.
Hillary, by the way, has now got 509 signups on Reddit. Up from 303. Those are volunteers and votes, no matter if other things on Reddit are yucky. Bernie's group has raised $119,00 so far, THAT is getting "social media" behind a candidate.

Reddit got to know and love Bernie due to the AMA's he has done. THAT is using social media. Using social media is not swooping down on and insulting the supporters of other candidates.

[HooptieWagon]

32. The 1980 U.S. Olympic Hockey Team never should have taken the ice.

No way we're they going to beat the Soviets. Just should have given up and conceded. Good thing no one told them.
Yep, Sanders is an underdog. So what. Sometimes the underdog wins. Carter, Clinton, and Obama were underdogs at this point in the campaign. Sanders has a lot going for him, and a reasonable shot at pulling it off. Good enough for me...I'm in.

[MisterP]

34. the party's been retooled into a money machine

only corpo-friendly candidates will keep the gravy train rolling so sometimes you even have to sabotage a primary even when it loses the general: supermajorities will just make people WANT things (so you have to construct a "veal pen&quot ; the donors cut the same checks to the central organs whether the party wins or loses (and you get to blame the voters and exclude them further from any process other than driving vans, phonebanking, and pulling the lever)

it's a naturally arrogant system and naturally breeds hall monitors and cyberbullies

[m-lekktor]

36. I choose to remain in denial a little while longer!!

lol

[jwirr]

56. I plan on staying in denial to the end. There is always a chance.

[m-lekktor]

57. yep. I hear that! nt

[sadoldgirl]

37. If it should come down to Clinton/Bush,

then the Dems will lose the millennials, and the % of
unaffiliated will grow tremendously, no matter who
will be the winner.

Perhaps, should it happen that way, in 2 or 4 years
the streets will be full of protesters. It happened during
and after the Hoover administration. Unfortunately
the planet will not wait as Climate Change may become
irreversible.

[PowerToThePeople]

38. I hope you are not correct

because if you are, I will likely end on on foreign soil marked as a terrorist. And I will be proud to have that future.

[newblewtoo]

40. If the past is prologue

then I would remind people of 1968 or to be more specific that year's primary race. I was a Mc Carthy supporter as were most of my friends at the time. I could have supported either Kennedy or Mc Carthy but was left to hold my nose and vote for Humphrey. Hard not to be bitter about how all that went down even to this day.

Review the link for an interesting look back:

[link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries,_1968|
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries,_1968


I did not go to Chicago to protest although my next door neighbor offered me the opportunity share expenses to go with him. (I had a job and needed the money to pay my tuition) I remember watching the riots on a 13 inch black and white TV looking to see if I recognized anyone.

[Cleita]

41. I remember that election. It was only the second Presidential election I could vote in and

I was disappointed as you were about having to vote for Humphrey.

Did you ever read "The Drifters" by James Michner. It was about the Chicago protests in 1968, fictionalized of course, and about a couple of the young people who were brutalized by the Chicago police and the aftermath of how it affected them. They go to Europe and drift around doing hippie stuff like drugs, sex and rock n' roll things popular then. It paints the times and how the young people felt about things very well and the Vietnam war cloud hanging over their heads. I don't even know if it's in print still, but surely a library has it somewhere. Of course we are all senior citizens now.

[jwirr]

58. Crying.

[MH1]

42. If Bush v Clinton is not high turnout, be ready to be hearing "President Bush" again.

Unfortunately that is the TRUTH.

So those of us for whom Hillary is not our first choice, we still ... if it happens that way ... had better suck it up and make sure our fellow Dems turn out to vote for her instead of staying home.

Jeb or Hillary ... if that's what it is .... is as easy a choice as Cruz vs. Sanders.

But let's at least try to make sure it doesn't turn out that way.

[Roy Ellefson]

53. true but...

since I am told that it is unreasonable to expect or demand economic justice or constraints on wall street or real relief for student debt etc. etc. maybe it isn't so important to me that a Democrat get elected if the only difference between them and a repuke president is who they select for the supreme court...in that case maybe I would rather see this country hit rock bottom because I sure as hell can't take another eight years of the same old bullshit.

[jwirr]

60. I don't think it is us here on DU who will not vote - it will be the ones who are either new or

who came back in just because of Bernie. And there is not a hell of a lot we can do about that.

[restorefreedom]

46. i agree, cali, that it is totally rigged

and everyone in power stands a lot to lose from a sanders presidency. but he has the momentum and the crowds, and is getting crossover votes and millenials. unless they outright steal the election by tampering, he will win. the wheels are in motion. sometimes the will of the people just can't be thwarted.

enough is enough. it is time.

[kath]

47. sadly, we have only the illusion of democracy. Corporate One Party Rule is where it's at!

Our corporate rulers know what's best for us. You gotta trust them!

[90-percent]

48. An appropriate quote from my hero Frank Zappa

“The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.”

I do not like Hillary or her record or her sad preordained "inevitability".

I don't like our former Democracy scripted by secret, sinister and extremely powerful forces.

I like Bernie's message and record to the extreme and will do what I can to help him get the nomination. I also think that the more American's that hear his message the better his chances. And if MSM continues to be dismissive of him, it proves his point about just how much power the wealthy really have running our country and the MSM. And social media is getting out the message MSM is pathetically trying to bury.

My attitude about Election 2016 is like how Zappa described his 'success' in the music business; "First, don't stop. Second, keep going." At the very least, the longer Bernie's message is out there and reverberates throughout all demographic segments of America, the better our chances of dismantling our countries current state of complete OLIGARCHY.

-90% Jimmy

[HereSince1628]

49. The best laid plans o mice an men gain aft agley

or so it seems ta this wee beestie

All it would take is an under-estimation of how "f'ing retards" resent the oligarchs and their stabled squires.

Evidence to date is looking like that's at least a 50-50 proposition.

[azmom]

50. Bernie said he wouldn't run if he didn't

Think he could win. We are in this to win it.

The oligarchs can go fuck themselves

[DesertFlower]

51. unfortunately i have to agree, but not

giving up hope. i support bernie, but i will vote for hillary if she is the nominee.

[jwirr]

52. I tend to agree with you but would remind you all of one important thing. Bernie has kept telling

us that it not about him. That we are building a movement to bring about change. That will not fail. We are already very strong. The 100,000 who went to the meetings on the 29th, the people at the huge meetings and those of us on social media. We are the movement for change. And we will still have Bernie with us.

There will be much we can do if we stick together. If we continue to work for the things he talks to us about we will win.

I just hope that TPTB know what they are doing because it will be a low voter turnout again. But the Rs will not have low voter turnout because they hate her.

Win , lose or draw my sig line stays the same to remind me what I want from America.

[Skwmom]

59. The funny thing about scripts is they don't always go as planned. n/t

[Le Taz Hot]

69. I'm not buying it.

Anything out of the ordinary seems unlikely . . . right up until the time that it happens.

No one with the name of Barak Hussein Obama was supposed to be president, either. Now, granted TPTB rightly pegged him as one of "theirs" so they quickly abandoned Hillary for Obama in that Obama didn't have the negatives that Hillary had. But that wasn't all that happened. Less politically-experienced people backed Obama in a populist movement (that he betrayed the second he got into the WH) and got out and worked for him and voted for him. Don't ignore that. That was THE OTHER HALF of how Obama got into the White House.

Now, granted, Bernie has TPTB working against him and the DNC is starting to get nervous but they can only pull off one Dean Scream and they've already done that. They've tried the #BLM stunt and that hasn't made a dent. And this is 5 months before the first votes are cast. No, cali, I see something completely different than what you see. I see a REAL populist movement and probably the last chance this nation will have to right itself again.

[senz]

71. The difference with this script is the setting, the context.

First is the impending demise of democracy. Some say it's already over, but I think it's more accurate to say it's teetering. The people have been losing control of this country to the oligarchs since Reagan. We've all seen it -- the rise of transnational conglomerates, the movement of manufacturing to 3rd world countries, massive job loss, media monopoly controlling information (witness the news blackout on Bernie), deepening income inequality, and more of the commons falling to privatization. The Great Recession of 2008 was the result of deregulating the banks and Bush fiscal recklessness and profligacy. Each of these changes is the direct result of inept/corrupt legislation here at home.

Second is global warming/ climate change. It's no longer possible to deny it. It, too, is the result of political forces preventing the regulation of the fossil fuel industries.

The script today takes place in a country, and a world, on the brink of disaster. If we don't elect a true democrat -- someone who will take the side of the people and the environment against the greed and power hunger of oligarchs -- the slide toward unbearable conditions will continue apace, people will suffer until they cannot take any more -- and finally react.

[davidpdx]

78. +1

Deep, sad, and on the mark.

[daredtowork]

74. A small cause for hope?

I live in Berkeley and last year we managed to vote to tax Big Soda. Corporations came down with multimillion dollar propaganda campaigns and advertising budgets. A grassroots movement fought for what they wanted: they built a coalition of local organizations and managed to get their message across to enough people to win the vote.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/15/berkeley-victory-soft-drinks-tax-obesity

However you feel about the tax itself, it's fundamental message is Big Money doesn't always win.

[treestar]

81. This forum is a sewer, all about the supporters

so many threads are aimed at "supporters" and whose supporters are better people. lol. So divisive.

[cali]

89. that is not remotely what the op addresses

[senz]

93. Wha?

Sounds like somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed. Have a nice day!

[phleshdef]

85. I'm a Sanders supporter and like Bernie, I like and respect Hillary Clinton.

I'm not going to bash her. I'm following Bernie's example. It would be nice if others could do the same. I remember how nasty 2008 was around here. We shouldn't let it get to that level again.