Tim Wise on BLM/Bernie Sanders, plus something from a Sanders supporter who was at the event

[gollygee]

From Tim Wise (Facebook):

Once again, let me say, no matter your feelings about the disruptions of Bernie Sanders' presentation(s) by Black Lives Matter activists (feelings about strategy, timing etc), please take a minute to reflect on this. It strikes me that too often white liberals/progressives/leftists act and speak as though racism is just a side-issue to economic injustice, and so if one is doing a good job speaking about the latter (the 1%, the corporations, etc) then by definition, that person must "get" race; that if we can just address the economic oligarchy, then white supremacy will be adequately addressed too. But in fact, this is almost entirely wrong, and even backwards in some ways. The class system, about which Sanders often speaks quite convincingly, is actually only as strong as it is BECAUSE of racism and white supremacy. It is racism that was used to create it and maintain it. It has been racism that has led working class white people to bond with those above them, just to feel superior to black and brown folks. It is racism that makes the elite assaults on the safety net acceptable in the eyes of working class and lower-middle class whites. It is racism that led so many whites to ignore that assault on the safety net (and indeed the issue of inequality itself) until it finally began to hit them in the last several years. Until the white left begins to say loudly and consistently that RACISM is what gives the class system power (much more so than the reverse) in this country, and until we make it clear to white folks that only by prioritizing the fight against racism can we truly make inroads towards economic justice, we on the white left have little right to lecture activists of color about their messaging. This is something I address in my new book. Perhaps I should send a copy to Sanders. There are ways to talk about the things Bernie's work is focused on, but still put race in the center of that analysis. I think that if he would just do that, it would go a long way towards building bridges with BLM and building the kind of movement solidarity we need.

and

Let me clarify one more thing for folks. My initial feelings this morning when I woke up, concerning the disruption of Bernie Sanders' speech in Seattle, were that it was a horrible move, and ill-thought-out, and strategically crazy, and all kinds of stuff. But frankly, even though I'm still not totally sold on it, I have to say, Bernie's Belligerents have damn near convinced me over the course of the day that he deserved all that shit and more. I think Bernie actually gets it more than 99% of his damned foot soldiers. He needs to reign in the white leftie-I-used-to-work-for-PIRG bullshit..those folks are entirely tone deaf on race. I think Bernie is moveable. His core people? Not so sure...

From a Sanders supporter who was at the event and who responded on Facebook:

What I learned from yesterday’s rally with #BernieSanders is either Seattle is violently passionate about Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, or, white people have a lot of work to do in our own community and don’t have time or energy to spare, least of all to criticize #BlackLivesMatter. When the activists took the stage last night, a lot of the audience turned instantly hostile and threatening. I was embarrassed and a little frightened by the man next to me who continued his vulgar shouting, even when the rest of the thousands of people there stood in silence to honor Michael Brown on the anniversary of his death. (This same man also refused to leash his dog and mocked a little old lady who said she was scared to pass by while trying to leave). After the activists left the stage, a group of white people had to form a human buffer to shield the two women from the angry yelling white mob that charged them. While quickly diffused, a physical scuffle actually broke out between the white people. People screamed at a young black women in the crowd (who came to see Bernie and had no idea about the BLM action), “Are you happy now?!” Considering this experience in liberal, progressive, self-proclaimed ally to BLM Seattle, I would fear for the safety of black activists if they took our friendly well-meaning white people advice to take their message to a GOP rally. That, my white friends, is our job. The response of the audience last night let me know white people have plenty of work to do fixing ourselves. I don’t know all the answers for sure, but I do know that I was too scared to say anything to the man next to me, so how can I ask a black person to?

My feelings are that telling African Americans how to protest and freaking out with negativity toward BLM is NOT helping Sanders. We need to build bridges. We do not need to make things worse.

Tim Wise said that Bernie's supporters have made him feel like Bernie deserved it. I don't think he deserved it, but I think "deserved" is a strange word. In a way, every single person in this country deserves it, not even limited to just every person running for political office. The problems are societal and we are all part of this racially dysfunctional society, even if we wish we could opt out of it. But Bernie no more than anyone else, IMO. I think "deserves" is an odd way to look at it.

BLM said Bernie needs to explain the things he's done, or something along those lines, and I don't know what they were referencing. If they'd said he needed to explain things he hadn't done, I'd assume it was that he hadn't talked about racism and racial violence as much as they want, or as much as they need to feel comfortable voting for him. But I don't know what the complaint about what he had done was about. I would like to hear. I have googled a bit to try to get more information about what bad things Bernie has supposedly done, but I haven't found any information yet.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

1. I've got a couple of tweets about Wise's latest from a WoC in my twitter stream.

"[Sigh] no, Tim Wise does NOT need to write about the disjunct between Black folks & Bernie Sanders. Black folks are already writing on it."

and

"White folks need to be listening to Black folks, not to another white man. He does not lend it legitimacy - EXCEPT to a racist mind."

[gollygee]

3. That is an ongoing criticism he faces.

And it's a fair thing to talk about as well, but since no one here seems to actually be listening to black people unless they are saying what people at DU want to hear anyway, it might be a start. BLM is made up of black people. They're not just being dismissed; they're being called names. I haven't seen many DUers interested in hearing from any black people who don't mirror their own thoughts.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

5. Isn't that human nature?

It doesn't require the other people to have a different amount of melanin, we all tend to want to listen to those people who are agreeing with us and ignore those who disagree, or even 'call them names'. Do you think white protesters who acted in the same fashion would get a 'pass' for those actions, or do you think they'd be getting the same flack from Bernie supporters?

[gollygee]

6. Oh I think anyone who says anything even remotely negative about the Sanders campaign

or Sanders or his supporters gets flack from a great number of Bernie supporters.

I am going to vote for Bernie, and I am quite happy with him, but I have some complaints about his campaign and his supporters, and I get a great deal of flack for having any negative feelings at all about anything even remotely related to him.

Edited to add: I'm concerned that his campaign and Sanders supporters in general are not hearing what people are saying and therefore that we aren't getting people's votes because people aren't hearing things they need to hear - and things that Bernie actually does feel. I feel very confident that Bernie's heart is in civil rights for all oppressed groups of people. I just want that message to get out where it needs to go.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

7. I try to remember all politicians draw 'supporters' who run the gamut

from sane to lunacy, pleasant to foaming at the mouth. I've seen people I thought of as generous, kind, thoughtful... turn around and support utter wingnuts, and people I thought were complete idiots then go and support the same folks I did.

[m-lekktor]

17. anybody who criticizes ANY candidate gets flack from their supporters

to imply it only happens with certain candidate supporters is partisan disengenousness

[sabrina 1]

21. Lol, well you might want to consider what Bernie supporters have been putting up

with from people who support Hillary. I, eg, have been told I'm 'not a democrat', and by the Sarah Palin fan who disrupted Bernie's event EVERY White Liberal, including the man whose family was murdered by the world's number one White Supremicist, are ALL White Supremicists.

People who do not support Hillary and dare to point out where she stands on the issues, have been attacked, alert stalked, some no longer here, among other things.

Just wanted to give you some perspective because you seem to be saying that Bernie has the worst supporters in the world, another thing those who support him have been accused of by Hilary supporters.

Your 'concern' should be for your own candidate. Bernie never had to worry about getting the support of AAs. THAT was a talking point spread around mostly partisan forums.

And when ANYONE, as I did, tried to show that the 'concern' wasn't necessary, we were attacked by Hillary supporters.

Minorities have been signing up for his campaign since it began. But sssshhhhh, don't mention that here on DU and interfere with the Talking Points.

I don't trust anyone who is a Sarah Palin fan who was 'groomed' by Republicans and who spouts Rush Limbaugh filth about Liberals no matter WHO they are.

I listened, and I heard Hannity/Limbaugh and I saw an ignorant woman PUSH PHYSICALLY, a US Senator who was way too classy to even engage that kind of right wing garbage.

Anyone who supports this, has to be from the Rove school of 'let's GET Liberals' with lies, with smears, anyway we can'.

[virtualobserver]

2. one mistake is to assume that everyone at a rally that is specifically about Social Security....

and Medicare is a liberal or a Bernie Sanders supporter even in Seattle....older voters could be more conservative

[gollygee]

4. This was a younger person.

I can't say whether the person was a young man or a young woman as the name and photo were both unclear. It sounded like this person went to the rally because Sanders was there and they wanted to hear him speak.

[virtualobserver]

14. perhaps, but I think what this really shows is.....

angry confrontational and disrespectful protests make people angry....
Treating Bernie that way was an injustice. Injustice of all kinds make people angry.

I know that there are people who believe that this is a legitimate form of protest. I am not one of them.

I watched the video of the way that they were treating Bernie....Total disrespect....I read that he tried to shake hands with them and they refused.
You would have imagined that he was Strom Thurmond or George Wallace.


One of the BLM people involved in this protest was a fan of Sarah Palin at the time that President Obama was running.
On their facebook page they call liberals worthless. I can see why she liked Sarah.

I don't excuse any negative behavior by any particular member of the crowd,
but the BLM members were trolling for a negative reaction, and they got one.

[GitRDun]

8. While I agree with your thoughts,

my experience has been many Sanders folks don't want to hear this.

We can all (myself included) do a better job trying to understand each other.

I made multiple attempts today to communicate the notion Bernie needs to take the lead in assimilating all of the core Democratic constituencies into his campaign, e.g., he can do better.

My thoughts were immediately dismissed by some Sanders zealots. They insinuated I lacked intelligence, as well as other insults. Like in the FB post you referenced, if all the undecided middle sees is zealots, he'll lose.

It's a shame too, he's a decent candidate.

[gollygee]

13. He's an amazing candidate

He is the only one who really wants to fundamentally change how things are done.

[brentspeak]

9. Are there still people who think the disruption/dirty trick was actually a real, sincere protest?

[gollygee]

10. Are there people who actually think it was a "dirty trick?"

That's a ridiculous conspiracy theory.

[brentspeak]

12. Please read this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7060303

[Starry Messenger]

11. I'm highlighting this part, in case people don't read that far down.

"People screamed at a young black women in the crowd (who came to see Bernie and had no idea about the BLM action), “Are you happy now?!” Considering this experience in liberal, progressive, self-proclaimed ally to BLM Seattle, I would fear for the safety of black activists if they took our friendly well-meaning white people advice to take their message to a GOP rally."

[MellowDem]

15. Tim Wise is just another liberal white supremacist....

Sarcasm aside, he brings up a strawman (the economics before race thing) and then tries to excuse the protestors as being justified because people on Twitter are mean.

Wow, he contributes nothing to the discussion at all.

[romanic]

18. Well he got a plug for his upcoming book.

So there's a contribution there. /sarcasm

[winter is coming]

16. My feelings are that anyone can say anything on Facebook,

and given what happened on the stage, it's entirely possible there were confederates in the audience.

[ljm2002]

19. I'm not freaking out "at BLM"...

...and we have been reminded quite often today that in any case, BLM is not a centralized organization.

I am freaking out specifically at the so-called "BLM Seattle", whose Facebook page was apparently first created 2 days ago. This organization is headed by one Marissa Jenae Johnson, who appears to be a fundamentalist Christian (which does not by itself say anything bad about her) and who appears to like Sarah Palin (which does say lots bad about her).

So excuse me if I don't trust her. Her being black does not earn my trust.

I really do not think that Marissa Johnson believes in the BLM cause. If she does believe in the cause, IMO she should recuse herself due to the damage she has caused it.

[gollygee]

20. Conservative people can be a part of BLM

Last edited Mon Aug 10, 2015, 09:21 AM - Edit history (1)

Conservative black people are probably tired of seeing their kids get killed too. Though I agree that her being a Palin supporter doesn't say much for her. And obviously her vote isn't in play.

My concern is not with whether those specific BLM members are legitimate, it's with how people are responding to them. We couldn't drive people of color away from Sanders faster with a top fuel dragster. We can't win without large numbers of African American votes. Not a few people we can find on the internet, but a large percentage. Campaigns don't work the way they used to work. White people alone can't win. We include people of color and their concerns, and we try to understand why they're upset rather than getting angry with them for being upset, or we lose.

[ljm2002]

22. Agreed, conservative people can be part of BLM...

...and that's okay.

But as I said, I don't trust Marissa Janae Johnson's motives in this. Not one little bit. Part of respecting the voices of black people is respecting that they are individuals with different opinions, not just one big mass of people who all think the same. So we should be able to say which people we like or agree with, vs. those we do not, because we are dealing with individual human beings not just looking at every black person as a representative of their race. Who we represent racially is but one facet of our humanity.

I think "Black Lives Matter" is an important and urgent movement and I'm glad it exists. It is beyond shameful how the worth of black people's lives has been devalued in our society and it's way past time to fix it. I support activism in this effort. I do not support the action in Seattle. And judging by the replies at the BLMSeattle Facebook page where she issued her press release, the action in Seattle did harm to the BLM cause:

https://www.facebook.com/BLMSeattle/posts/716844418437393

I certainly agree with your general point that Bernie needs black voters if he is to have a chance in the primary much less in the general. That's why I was happy to see that he hired Symone Sanders as his new press secretary. Hopefully that is a step in the right direction. He is also speaking more to social issues. Time will tell.

[BainsBane]

23. She was a Palin supporter 8 yrs ago

not now. She no longer is. She makes that clear in her interview with TWIB.

Her parents are in the Tea Party. Her dad is black and her mom is white. She grew up raised by the TP so supported Palin 8 yrs ago, like lots of people grow up influenced by their parents. She is now an adult operation on her own, working for the lives of black people. She's a Christian. People here have denounced that. They see she admits to being a Christian extremist. If you listen to what she says, she says if fighting for black lives is extremist, that's what she is. Her religion teaches her to stand up for the oppressed. What could be wrong with that?

As for other Christian extremists, Nat Turner comes to mind. Folks here wouldn't have cared for his tactics either.