Hillary is part of fundamentalist "The Family"; Bernie gives talk at fundamentalist college

[Cosmic Kitten]

Hillary is part of the fundamentalist group
known as "The Family".
The Family is a bigoted a fundamentalist group.

Hobby Lobby Case Linked To Secretive National Prayer Breakfast Group, “The Family”
In 2010 on MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow Show, author Jeff Sharlet publicly accused “The Family”, which hosts the National Prayer Breakfast, of being directly responsible for the notorious Uganda Anti Homosexuality Bill that was signed into law in early 2014. As this Center Against Religious Extremism (CARE) special report demonstrates, The Family is also tightly linked, through its affiliate The Gathering, to the controversial Burwell v. Hobby Lobby Supreme Court case which gave broad new religious freedom rights to private corporations.
http://www.twocare.org/gathering-greens-etc/

Where is the outrage about Hillary's participation
in that bigoted fundamentalist group?

Hillary's Prayer: Hillary Clinton's Religion and Politics
For 15 years, Hillary Clinton has been part of a secretive religious group that seeks to bring Jesus back to Capitol Hill. Is she triangulating—or living her faith?

Throughout her time at the White House, Clinton writes in Living History, she took solace from "daily scriptures" sent to her by her Fellowship prayer cell, along with Coe's assurances that she was right where God wanted her. (Clinton's sense of divine guidance has been noted by others: Bishop Richard Wilke, who presided over the United Methodist Church of Arkansas during her years in Little Rock, told us, "If I asked Hillary, 'What does the Lord want you to do?' she would say, 'I think I'm called by the Lord to be in public service at whatever level he wants me.'&quot
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2007/09/hillarys-prayer-hillary-clintons-religion-and-politics?page=3

And yet...

Bernie plans to give a talk at fundamentalist college
and Team Hillary goes apoplectic?!?

The stench of hypocrisy is overwhelming

[Nite Owl]

1. I don't see the comparison

Hillary is actually part of a fundamentalist group
Bernie is trying to get their understanding, his message won't be changing for sure and it is a message that they will not otherwise hear.

[Cosmic Kitten]

3. I agree with your POV

The comparison is found in the
hypocrisy of Hillary supporters
pillorying Bernie for accepting
an invitation to speak at a
fundamentalist college.

Bernie did not seek out Liberty University,
they invited him to speak.

Hillary's voluntary participation and
support for "The Family" is far more egregious.

[SoapBox]

10. What you said.

[artislife]

22. That just makes too much sense.

I think it is kind of cool that a Christian University invited a Jew. I would be equally impressed if they invited the Pope.

[Fast Walker 52]

53. definitely

it's grotesque if Hillary is really in with that group.

Nothing wrong with what Bernie is doing.

[zeemike]

64. And there is a lot right with what he is doing.

It gains you nothing to talk to people that agree with you, but if you can reach out to those who don't you just may ease some of the tensions that divide us.
I am quite sure he will not change his message to please them but he just might be able to make them understand him.

[Adsos Letter]

111. ^This^ n/t

[Fast Walker 52]

182. exactly-- and I bet they will find some (maybe many) points they agree with him on

[840high]

108. ...^ that

[7962]

109. I think its impressive that LIBERTY actually invited Bernie to speak!

I have to give them some credit for bringing in someone who obviously doesnt share a lot of their beliefs

[SusanCalvin]

54. Exactly.

They are only remotely comparable, and Bernie's is preferable.

[tblue]

156. Exactly right, Nite Owl. I am all for it. There's no harm in going there and

his message really should resonate with absolutely everybody in the 99%.

[beam me up scottie]

2. It's not outrage against Sanders, it's Poutrage that DU women aren't flocking to her as predicted.

How dare we support the best candidate for all women, and the one with the best record on civil rights?

Don't we know he's the enemy because he has male parts?



When so-called feminists repeatedly attack and lie about an ally like Sanders they have an agenda, and it has nothing to do with women's rights.

The stench of hypocrisy is overwhelming

Yes it is.

[-... ...]

4. Me too, and I'm undecided.

[beam me up scottie]

6. Thanks.

And welcome to DU, -... ...!

[-... ...]

7. thanks for the warm welcome!

[chknltl]

133. I don't know if yours is the coolest DU name....

....but it is one folks'll hardly forget.... I think it's cool at any rate. Welcome to the big DU -... ... . Be sure to let us know how you decide so we can both praise you for being a sensible person or accuse you of being a plant, (l am of the opinion that everyone who isn't on my side has the brains of a begonia which literally makes them a ....well you see how that works). Our erstwhile chums on the other side, (the plants), think equally lofty thoughts about DUers on our side but heaven knows how they come to such silliness. Of course if you want to be neutral through silly season and support the hell out of whomever our nominee is you will fit right in too. Be sure to send me a notice should you get around to participating in one of the DU Lounge's "How Did You Get Your Name" threads. Warmest welcomes again -... ...

[Cosmic Kitten]

5. Indeed!

Bernie is about as honest as we can
hope for in an elected representative.

Yet the poutrage and manufactured
smears against him seem endless?

Hillary is a flip-flopper with a wet finger
held to the political winds

Bernie says what he means... the first time.

[beam me up scottie]

8. Some people need to "evolve" on human rights...

and others have always known that minorities need champions.

Bernie didn't wait until he was a Senator and candidate to do the right/popular thing, his record and words tell us everything we need to know about his dedication to women, lgbt and poc.

No amount of spin can change history.

[artislife]

24. As a woman

I think he thinks I am a whole human being.

[beam me up scottie]

34. Bernie is a better feminist than Hillary, imo.

Of course I believe that true feminists should always champion the rights of minorities.

Some want us to forget that Hillary sided with the religious right against same sex marriage.

[artislife]

37. Haven't forgotten that

And I think I am too in between in color to matter to a lot of feminists.

But you love me and that's enough!

Lets get this man elected!

I am so excited for Saturday, he has 3 events in Seattle and the a huge one the next day in Portland! The coasts are cool!

[peacebird]

162. Total poutrage, coupled with more than a little fear that the coronation is slipping away...

[Turbineguy]

9. Fundie christians are dangerous.

it's best to keep up with what they are doing.

[aspirant]

11. If Hillary understands their Fundamentalist views,

why wasn't she invited?

[artislife]

25. Maybe she was... we don't know. nt

[MannyGoldstein]

12. Today I made an important decision

While I'm more ideologically aligned with Bernie, I'm voting for Hillary, just because Bernie supporters are so rigid in their thinking.

Regards,

TWM

[Armstead]

40. Awwww....Manny is pouting again

Bring out the smelling salts

[Cosmic Kitten]

65. Yep, they are ruining Bernies chances!!!1!1!!11!

They need to STOP alienating Hillary's base!!!

[Historic NY]

13. You mean the same prayer breakfast every POTUS since Ike has attended...

hell even Mother Theresa was a speaker there in 1994. So lets see she went with her husband to it from 1992-2000 and then as Senator.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026756708

[Luminous Animal]

23. She attended regular prayer meetings.

Through all of her years in Washington, Clinton has been an active participant in conservative Bible study and prayer circles that are part of a secretive Capitol Hill group known as the Fellowship. Her collaborations with right-wingers such as Senator Sam Brownback (R-Kan.) and former Senator Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) grow in part from that connection. "A lot of evangelicals would see that as just cynical exploitation," says the Reverend Rob Schenck, a former leader of the militant anti-abortion group Operation Rescue who now ministers to decision makers in Washington. "I don't....there is a real good that is infected in people when they are around Jesus talk, and open Bibles, and prayer.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2007/09/hillarys-prayer-hillary-clintons-religion-and-politics

[Cosmic Kitten]

32. Has every POTUS been member of "The Family"?

[sulphurdunn]

43. HRC is a member of the Family, a sect

responsible for putting the damn thing on.It is an elitist, dominionist cult premised on a doctrine called Theonomy, which is antithetical to every precept of liberal democracy. Vote for Clinton and you'll deserve what you get. The rest of us won't.

[840high]

115. +1

[ismnotwasm]

14. Yawn. Extra yawn.

[okasha]

19. The Hillary-Family meme

has been so thoroughly debunked so many times that it's on a level with "Richard Nixon was innocent."

[Luminous Animal]

26. Really. Show me where it has been debunked.

In fact, Clinton's God talk is more complicated—and more deeply rooted—than either fans or foes would have it, a revelation not just of her determination to out-Jesus the GOP, but of the powerful religious strand in her own politics. Over the past year, we've interviewed dozens of Clinton's friends, mentors, and pastors about her faith, her politics, and how each shapes the other. And while media reports tend to characterize Clinton's subtle recalibration of tone and style as part of the Democrats' broader move to recapture the terrain of "moral values," those who know her say there's far more to it than that.

Through all of her years in Washington, Clinton has been an active participant in conservative Bible study and prayer circles that are part of a secretive Capitol Hill group known as the Fellowship. Her collaborations with right-wingers such as Senator Sam Brownback (R-Kan.) and former Senator Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) grow in part from that connection. "A lot of evangelicals would see that as just cynical exploitation," says the Reverend Rob Schenck, a former leader of the militant anti-abortion group Operation Rescue who now ministers to decision makers in Washington. "I don't....there is a real good that is infected in people when they are around Jesus talk, and open Bibles, and prayer."

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2007/09/hillarys-prayer-hillary-clintons-religion-and-politics

[JackInGreen]

29. You're going to be waiting a long time animal

It's how these exchanges about facts and record usually end.

[okasha]

73. It's right there in your own post

if you read it a bit less credulously and bother to check your facts.

But I doubt you will.

[Luminous Animal]

86. So. You will have no trouble pointing it out, right?

[okasha]

104. "Bible study" and "prayer group."

Those groups included wives of Family members and Senators who actually are
members of the Family.

The weasel words are "part of the Family." All Hillary's associations were at one or two removes from the Family. Further than that, do your own fact-checking. Preferably before you post nonsense.

[Luminous Animal]

121. As I thought. No debunking.

[okasha]

130. ANnd no fact checking on your part.

As I thought.

[Luminous Animal]

136. My link provided supported fact from right wing humans who prayed with her.

She is also on record, in her own book, of giving mad props to the piece of shit that runs the organization.

LET THE DEBUNKING BEGIN!

[okasha]

140. None of which is evidence that she belonged to the Family.

[Luminous Animal]

144. I hope you draw comfort from that while she prayed regularly with bigots and praised the fascist

that head the organization and drew comfort from the membership while going on the national stage to defend Bill's cheatery.

[haikugal]

201. Not only praised the fascist but went to him with 'spiritual' concerns..she's a member. nt

[peacebird]

163. I was attacked relentlessly and told it was debunked repeatedly, yet not one person provided proof

And many others provided more Hillary/Family links.

[Cosmic Kitten]

35. DEBUNKED? Hillary said she was a member and took solace in the scripture?

Unless you mean "debunked" as in...
she wasn't a true believer, only pandering
to the bigots waging a culture war

[okasha]

69. The Family has no female members.

Do a better job on your research and your reading comprehension.

[aspirant]

75. You mean they are that barbaric and vile?

[haikugal]

202. Well, no....

Lindsay Beyerstein: They think it's bad even to know about history?

Jeff Sharlet: They just don't care. One of the ironies of this book is that now they're in my debt. I know more about the history of their movement than they do. (That's why they were so casual about what ended up in the Family's records at the Billy Graham archives.) It didn't even occur to them that anyone would find anything wrong there, including various government documents that shouldn't have been there.

Lindsay Beyerstein: There's a story in the book that says a lot about how the Family operates, the one about the South African secrecy memo …

Jeff Sharlet: My favorite document in the entire archives. This was, I think, sometime in the '80s, the Family was very involved in South Africa supporting a right-wing black movement lead by Mangosuthu Buthelezi. They were part of a group of white South Africans cultivating him. A Family operative wrote a letter to a colleague saying, "You've got to be very careful, those outside we don't understand. That's why we do things through networks and friendships and travel around. Never put anything too specific on paper." The guy wrote back: "I understand, I've made copies of this for all my co-workers." I don't know whether he was passive aggressive, or just dumb as a brick.

Lindsay Beyerstein: In the book you say that the Family treats powerful women like Hillary Clinton as if they belonged to a kind of "third gender" that's female but not subordinate like ordinary women …

Jeff Sharlet: When I was at Ivanwald, I'd see these young women as servants. They came from wealthy families. They were women who have a lot of privileges in life. You'd have expected to have gone on to great things because they started with a big push [LB Note: But the Family had them scrubbing floors and serving coffee.] Then a woman political leader would come around and it would be a whole different story.

There are wives like Grace Nelson, wife of conservative Democrat Bill Nelson. Bill was an astronaut -- still has a spacesuit. He still wears it for occasions.

Lindsay Beyerstein: The suit still fits?

Jeff Sharlet: He's quite trim, I'll give him that. But Grace is obviously the political mover and shaker in that couple. She served on board of the Fellowship Foundation. Still, she's just the wife, secondary. Same with Joanne Kemp. Jack Kemp is a pretty aggressive leader, but it was Joanne who brought Christian ideas to Washington to start the Schaeffer Foundation nonprofit for the study of these ideas.

Two ways third gender works in the Family: There are these very strong wives who oftentimes are very strong-willed people. I'm just reading Katherine Joyce's book on Quiverfull … And the other are women like Hillary Clinton, who's just a man as far as they're concerned.

Lindsay Beyerstein: What's Hillary's involvement with the Family? What is she getting out of it?

Jeff Sharlet: As I was researching the book, I knew Hillary had this strange connection. I didn't think much of it until I was reporting on Sen. Sam Brownback. Everyone knew I was a reporter from "Rolling Stone," probably more liberal than they were. So, a way that a lot of Family people would reach out to be friendly was to tell me that Hillary Clinton was OK with them. They'd tell me that HRC was going for regular spiritual counseling with Doug Coe.

Lindsay Beyerstein: Is she still getting counseling from him?

Jeff Sharlet: This was in 2005, and she refused to say anything about this. When NBC questioned her about this, her only answer was that (she's) not a member and (she) has never given Doug Coe money -- which was a strangely parsed kind of answer.

Lindsay Beyerstein: The Family has some strange ideas about what it means to be chosen by God. Tell me about the incident in the book when Doug Coe's son, David Coe, dropped by Ivanwald to give the brothers instruction on chosenness.



Jeff Sharlet: David Coe used to be the heir apparent in the Family. He's still involved in ministry to congressmen, and at the time he was also meeting with Hillary. He'd come around to talk to the young guys at Ivanwald to talk about his vision of Biblical leadership. One day he says to brother Beau: "Suppose I heard you'd raped three little girls, what would I think of you?" Beau, being a human being, says, "That I'm pretty bad?" But David Coe says: "No, no, I wouldn't. Because you're chosen … like King David." Coe says: "No, no, I wouldn't. Because you're chosen … like King David.", what would I think of you?" Beau, being a human being, says, "That I'm pretty bad?" But David Coe says: "No, no, I wouldn't. Because you're chosen … like King David."

http://www.alternet.org/story/87665/worse_than_fascists%3A_christian_political_group_'the_family'_openly_reveres_hitler

So you see it isn't so cut and dry...

[artislife]

77. *chortle nt

[ismnotwasm]

183. Yeah I actually went to "PrisonPlanet" to see if they had shit like this

They do of course.

Another *Yawn*

[oasis]

132. You dare not sleep, Hill's "Family" may slip a pod under your bed.

[beam me up scottie]

15. They've already tried to associate his support for Israel with the fundamentalist's at Liberty.

They claim that's why he's going there, he's a "hawk for Israel".

Because we all know about those Jewish politicians *wink wink nudge nudge*

When it comes to lowering the bar they have no competition.

[Cosmic Kitten]

36. I know, right.

Some of those smears look very similar
to right-wing smear tactics?

[pnwmom]

16. Yes, the hypocrisy of some of Bernie's supporters is amazing. If Hillary had made plans

to speak at Liberty U, her opponents would have been apoplectic. But they're thrilled that Bernie is doing it.

[beam me up scottie]

17. I'm about as "thrilled" as I was when I found out Ted Kennedy spoke there.

But don't let facts get in the way of a good straw man, pnwmom.

[aspirant]

18. Now she is free to make those plans

so when will she be speaking at Liberty U.?

[pnwmom]

20. She probably thinks there are better places to find people who are likely to vote

for a progressive like her.

I do, anyway.

[MoveIt]

21. she's progressive?

Talk about burying the lede!

[pnwmom]

27. Bernie's voting record is only slightly to the left of hers. Biden and O'Malley's are to her right.

ontheissues.org

[MoveIt]

30. Giving George W. Bush a blank check for the Iraq war was not "progressive"

ontheissues.org failed to consider that data point.

[pnwmom]

39. The Democrats didn't give him a blank check. Their resolution contained

a contingency that required Bush to find WMD's and UN approval before invading. He ignored it.

If the Dems hadn't approved that IWR, with a contingency, what would have happened in January when the Rethugs took over? THEY would have given Bush his blank check. One way or another, he was going in there. The Dems couldn't stop him.

On the issues.org DID consider that "data point." They had a whole section in their analysis on the Iraq war.

[MoveIt]

41. That site, Hillary and other neo-liberals can rationalize the vote

I however, can't.

[truebluegreen]

55. Me neither.

Welcome to DU, MoveIt.

[MoveIt]

56. Thanks for the welcome!

[beam me up scottie]

31. When it comes to civil rights Bernie is FAR to the left of Hillary.

Or did you forget all of those impassioned speeches she gave while trying to defend "traditional" marriage from lgbt people?

Bernie has always supported equal rights for all.

Hillary not so much, she waited until it became popular to do the right thing.

[SunSeeker]

58. Not true. Sanders voted to enable anti-latino Minuteman militias in 2006.

Like his pro gun votes (he voted against the Brady Bill and for the PLCAA giving gun manufacturers special immunity from suit), his 2006 vote for that vile GOP amendment to the Homeland Security Bill that defunded informing Mexico about America civilian border vigilantes (the racist Minuteman groups) is indefensible.

Even though the militia groups are involved in unsanctioned, armed activity along the Mexican-American border, the Republicans drafted language blocking the US government from notifying the Mexican authorities about potential dangers to their citizens living or traveling near the US-Mexico border. The amendment to the 2006 Homeland Security Appropriations bill reads:

“None of the funds made available by this Act may be used to provide a foreign government information relating to the activities of an organized volunteer civilian action group, operating in the State of California, Texas, New Mexico, or Arizona, unless required by international treaty.”

The Congressional Record shows the Dems were livid. Dem rep. Loretta Sanchez from California demanded a recorded vote, not a mere anonymous voice vote. Here's the Congressional Record link to Sanchez' comments and that amendment language:
https://www.congress.gov/amendment/109th-congress/house-amendment/971

The language targeted notifications of activity only in the states of California, Texas, New Mexico and Arizona - all states on the Mexican border. The prohibition did not apply to the border states of Alaska, Washington, Idaho, Montana, North Dakota, Minnesota, Michigan, New York, New Hampshire, Maine or Sen. Sanders' home state, Vermont. But then again, these militias are not trying to keep out white Canadians. They are only concerned with keeping out latinos coming from our southern neighbor, Mexico.

Republicans in Congress were pandering to their base: the anti-immigrant racists and gun nuts, both of which were personified in the "Minuteman" groups, the members of which arm themselves and play illegitimate border patrol. Yet Bernie voted YES. Thanks to Loretta Sanchez, here's the link to the recorded vote: http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2006/roll224.xml

This amendment that Sanders voted for protected and legitimized these vigilante border militia groups, allowing them to openly talk about gunning down latinos they suspect of being undocumented immigrants. Their terror campaign against latinos is no idle threat. One Minuteman militia group murdered a latino father and his young daughter (who were American citizens), in 2009. Nine-year-old Brisenia Flores begged for her life as a Minuteman militia member shot her dead. http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jan/25/nation/la-na-minutemen-murder-20110126

Bernie has supported equal rights for all, except when he was pandering to right wing racist gun nuts and hoping no one noticed.

[beam me up scottie]

60. That lie was a smear that came from a banned member and the thread was locked.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251461135

Bernie has supported equal rights for all, except when he was pandering to right wing racist gun nuts and hoping no one noticed.

Nice try, but like I said, Bernie's civil rights record is impeccable.

Your's however is just as constant but not in a good way, when it comes to exploiting victims Hillary supporters have no competition.



There's that stench the op was talking about, it's called desperation.

[artislife]

80. As a Latina

I am not afraid of Bernie.

[beam me up scottie]

88. But I read in that thread that he hates immigrants and brown people.

"Bernie Sanders and the Minuteman Militia: "Progressive Hero" Voted to Protect Racist Vigilante Border Thugs"

OMGWTFBBQ???

It's true!!1!

[artislife]

90. He does

But I can change him, I know I can!

[beam me up scottie]

93. First we have to pry that AK 47 out of his gun nutter hands!

[artislife]

117. This guy missing his AK 47

He has voted for gun control, but that isn't enough. But someone else has fond memories of guns...
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/04/12/clinton-touts-her-experience-with-guns/

She then introduced a fond memory from her youth.

“You know, my dad took me out behind the cottage that my grandfather built on a little lake called Lake Winola outside of Scranton and taught me how to shoot when I was a little girl,” she said.

“You know, some people now continue to teach their children and their grandchildren. It’s part of culture. It’s part of a way of life. People enjoy hunting and shooting because it’s an important part of who they are. Not because they are bitter.”


But only she can tell the difference.

[beam me up scottie]

120. Hillary, aka 'Annie Oakley' and Obama both support the rights of gun owners.

I'm surprised her fans don't know this.

Oh, wait, no I'm not.

Thanks for the reminder!

[SunSeeker]

91. I am not afraid of Bernie either, but the gun nuts he panders to are another matter. nt

[beam me up scottie]

95. Obama called Hillary "Annie Oakley" when she pandered to gun nuts in 2008.

You guys really need to get your evil gun nut talking points straight, it's confusing the audience.

[SunSeeker]

102. Hillary has had the guts to talk gun control, while Bernie has avoided it.

His response, or lack thereof, to the recent shootings is telling.

[beam me up scottie]

112. Except not only he has talked about gun control, he voted for it:

Sanders Votes for Background Checks, Assault Weapons Ban

WASHINGTON, April 17 – Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) today voted for expanded background checks on gun buyers and for a ban on assault weapons but the Senate rejected those central planks of legislation inspired by the shootings of 20 first-grade students and six teachers in Newtown, Conn.

“Nobody believes that gun control by itself is going to end the horrors we have seen in Newtown, Conn., Aurora, Colo., Blacksburg, Va., Tucson, Ariz. and other American communities,” Sanders said. “There is a growing consensus, however, in Vermont and across America that we have got to do as much as we can to end the cold-blooded, mass murders of innocent people. I believe very strongly that we also have got to address the mental health crisis in our country and make certain that help is available for people who may be a danger to themselves and others,” Sanders added.

The amendment on expanded background checks needed 60 votes to pass but only 54 senators voted for it. “To my mind it makes common sense to keep these weapons out of the hands of people with criminal records or mental health histories,” Sanders said.

Under current federal law, background checks are not performed for tens of thousands of sales – up to 40 percent of all gun transfers – at gun shows or over the Internet. The amendment would have required background checks for all gun sales in commercial settings regardless of whether the seller is a licensed dealer. The compromise proposal would have exempted sales between “family, friends, and neighbors.”

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/sanders-votes-for-background-checks-assault-weapons-ban

And he talked about gun violence and racism after Charleston (without saying "all lives matter" in an AA church like Hillary):

Sanders: Charleston Shooting Reminder Of 'Ugly Stain Of Racism' In US

Presidential candidate Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) on Thursday condemned the shooting at a historically black church in Charleston, S.C. as a "tragic reminder of the ugly stain of racism" tainting America.

"This senseless violence fills me with outrage, disgust and a deep, deep sadness," Sanders tweeted.

In a longer statement, the Democratic presidential contender said the killings, which were blamed on a white suspect whose victims included state Sen. Clementa Pinckney (D), showed that the U.S. had a long way to go in escaping its history of racial violence.

"The hateful killing of nine people praying inside a church is a horrific reminder that, while we have made significant progress in advancing civil rights in this country, we are far from eradicating racism," he said.

"Our thoughts and prayers are with the families and their congregation," Sanders added.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/charleston-shooting-bernie-sanders-racism

You really aren't very good at this, are you?



* Hint: when swift boating Bernie you're not supposed to make claims that can be refuted easily

[artislife]

122. Why.....this looks like gun control?! nt

[beam me up scottie]

125. What about this?:

[artislife]

127. It cannnot be...no I won't believe

everything they said, he's pinko, gun toting, minority hating, woman hating, liver and onion hating, red rover hating and saddle shoe hating kind of guy.

I just can't believe it...

[beam me up scottie]

134. LMAO!

Well he is a "draft dodging" "certifiable socialist" who "once lived on a commune", "has rape fantasies" and "believes orgasms prevent cancer" you know.

I read it all right here on DU!

Who needs to travel to Free Republic when you can read the latest dirt on Bernie without leaving home?

[artislife]

137. Well we do have comfy chairs here....

and I am drinking a nice Angry Orchard Hard Cider!


http://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/angry-orchard-recalls-hard-cider-over-potential-bottle-explosion-n405291

Apparently, I live dangerously!

This is the last one of the 6 pack I bought at the start of the week, so I played Russian roulette and won!

[beam me up scottie]

139. I saw that!

I have some homemade wine that was given to me in a cooler, I learned my lesson after a bottle exploded all over my kitchen cabinets.

I had to give one of the dogs a bath too.

Not a fun way to wake up, sounded like a gun shot.

For a minute I thought Bernie was inside my house trying to take out my s/o who is a brown person.

[artislife]

142. He could have tampered with the bottle

It seems like the kind of thing he would do!

[beam me up scottie]

145. He's like Savoir-Faire, he is everywhere!

[artislife]

146. I think he's hiding near my recycle bin...nt

[SunSeeker]

147. That doesn't make up for his votes AGAINST the Brady Bill and FOR the PLCAA.

That TPM link you cite does not show him talking about gun violence or calling for gun control following Charleston, while Clinton did raise the issue of gun control following Charleston. Instead, Bernie spouted dog whistles to defend his pro-gun votes. When speaking to Jake Tapper on July 5, 2015, in trying to defend his 2005 vote in favor of the PLCAA giving gun manufacturers certain tort immunities available to no other product manufacturer, he appeared to claim Vermont gun owners were more responsible gun owners than those in "Chicago" (African Americans?) and "Los Angeles" (Latinos?). As he states at 0:42-1:00 in this video:

"...the people of my state understand, I think pretty clearly, that guns in Vermont are not the same thing as guns in Chicago or guns in Los Angeles. In our state, guns are used for hunting. In Chicago, they're used for kids in gangs killing other kids or people shooting at police, shooting down innocent people."

By the way, those Vermont "hunters" seem to hit more people, per capita, than Chicago and Los Angeles gun owners. The number of gun deaths due to injury by firearms in Vermont is 9.2 per 100,000 population. In California, it is 7.7; in Illinois it is 8.6. http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/firearms-death-rate-per-100000/

And he was really dishonest about there being "extremes" on both sides of the gun debate. His votes against the Brady Bill and for the PLCAA was not "bringing us in the middle." The common sense efforts at gun control in this country, and certainly any of the proposals that have come before Bernie in the Senate, are anything but extreme. Also dishonest was his rationalization for his vote in 2005 to shield gun manufacturers from lawsuits by gun violence victims like those brought by the families of the victims of the 2012 Aurora, Colorado theater shooter:

"If somebody has a gun and it falls into the hands of a murderer and the murderer kills somebody with a gun, do you hold the gun manufacturer responsible? Not any more than you would hold a hammer company responsible if somebody beats somebody over the head with a hammer. That is not what a lawsuit should be about," Sanders said.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/05/politics/bernie-sanders-gun-control/index.html

That is a very dishonest description of that law...and the victims' lawsuits. The lawsuits don't allege manufacturers should be liable just because a gun"falls into the hands of a murderer." The lawsuits allege manufacturer liability based on the manufacturer knowing they were selling to an irresponsible retailer, or selling a product that is designed for mass killing, as opposed to hunting or self defense. That 2005 law gave special immunity to gun manufacturers that hammer manufacturers do not have. Indeed, no other manufacturers have this immunity. What this immunity does is allow gun manufacturers to continue selling guns to retailers they know or should have reason to know are selling guns to criminals and the mentally ill. Sadly, there are a minority of gun retailers who don't give a shit and are the source for most of the guns used in gun violence. And greedy gun manufacturers are more than happy to keep supplying them. That 2005 law (the PLCAA) allows gun manufacturers to keep doing that with impunity:

Because the PLCAA deals with tort law—not a topic of great interest for most Americans—it didn’t stir much outrage when first passed. But the act’s primary purpose is as simple as it is cold-blooded. Every state imposes liability on manufacturers who are negligent in their production and sale of products. If I crash my Prius because its accelerator malfunctions, I can sue Toyota for negligently manufacturing a faulty pedal. If my child dismembers himself with a blender at Sears, I can sue Sears for negligently leaving that blender within a child’s reach. If I get stabbed by a teenager with a switchblade, I might be able to sue the pawn shop owner who illegally sold a knife to a minor.

Before the PLCAA, most states imposed some form of tort liability on gun makers and sellers. If a gun manufacturer made an assault rifle that could slaughter dozens of people in a few seconds, for instance, one of its victims might sue the company for negligently making a gun that could foreseeably be used for mass murder. If a gun seller sold a gun to a customer without performing any kind of background check—and then the buyer opened fire on the subway—his victims might sue that seller for negligently providing a gun to a mentally unstable person. The standards in each state differed, but the bottom line remained the same: Victims of gun violence and their families could recover financially from the people and companies who negligently enabled gun violence.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/05/bernie_sanders_on_guns_vermont_independent_voted_against_gun_control_for.html



You really aren't very good at this, are you?



* Hint: when puffing up Bernie you're not supposed to make claims that can be refuted easily

[beam me up scottie]

149. He has nothing to make up for. I agree with him about the PLCAA and he explained his vote on the BB

Manufacturers shouldn't be held liable for criminal use of a legally manufactured product that isn't defective.

he appeared to claim Vermont gun owners were more responsible gun owners than those in "Chicago" (African Americans?) and "Los Angeles" (Latinos?).

When it comes to noting the difference between urban and rural gun use Obama said the same thing after Sandy Hook, was he being a racist too?:

"Part of being able to move this forward is understanding the reality of guns in urban areas are very different from the realities of guns in rural areas. And if you grew up and your dad gave you a hunting rifle when you were ten, and you went out and spent the day with him and your uncles, and that became part of your family's traditions, you can see why you'd be pretty protective of that.

"So it's trying to bridge those gaps that I think is going to be part of the biggest task over the next several months. And that means that advocates of gun control have to do a little more listening than they do sometimes."

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2013/01/27/170393072/gun-control-advocates-should-listen-more-obama-says

And as far as not "talking about gun violence or calling for gun control following Charleston" I'll just leave you with something he said quite recently:








It's a shame you spent hours digging all of that up because your original claim is still false:

SunSeeker (12,322 posts)

102. Hillary has had the guts to talk gun control, while Bernie has avoided it.

His response, or lack thereof, to the recent shootings is telling.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=498492

Trying to move the goal posts once again after you were so obviously wrong to begin with proves you are awful at this.

Really.

[SunSeeker]

153. So I caught you in a lie all you can offer is some lame campaign graphic.

I see you are just as dishonest about the PLCAA as Bernie is. An AR-15 with a 100-round magazine that has no business being sold to civilians is a defective product, i.e. an unreasonably dangerous product that should not be sold to consumers. But the PLCAA made sure the victims of such a product could never again allege that. And you're fine with that. Amazing how defending Bernie has turned GDP into the Gungeon.

That graphic you keep posting in this thread does not support your claim he talked about gun violence or called for gun control following Charleston. That Obama quote you offer does not have the dog whistles of Bernie's "Chicago" and "Los Angeles" quote. I showed you Bernie's words, on video, and they weren't pretty. You don't even try to defend them. You just lamely try to deflect.

You really are not good at this.

[beam me up scottie]

154. Why am I not surprised you're accusing me of lying because I proved you wrong?

That graphic not only proves that Bernie spoke out about gun violence recently (July 27), he also said he wants to ban those weapons which makes more sense than trying to bankrupt an entire industry which is unconstitutional.

So again, your claim is still wrong and personally attacking me won't restore your credibility.

Bernie Sanders DID speak up about gun violence, he DID vote for gun control and he wants to ban the guns you think should be sued out of existence.

Trying to get the last word won't help you either, you still haven't graduated from Bernie Bashing Preschool.

[SunSeeker]

155. You did not prove me wrong. Your undated campaign graphic proves nothing.

Last edited Fri Aug 7, 2015, 03:47 AM - Edit history (1)

If he wants to ban "those weapons" why did he make it impossible for victims to sue over them?

And since when does a progressive adopt bullshit NRA talking points? "Bankrupt an entire industry"? WTF? Why should we protect gun manufacturers who make AR-15s with 100-round magazines? Besides, before this PLCAA law was passed in 2005, the gun manufacturers were doing just fine. Now their profits are through the roof--and they're collecting $200,000 in attorneys fees against an Aurora family who dared to sue them. You and Bernie must be so proud.

You claimed Bernie called for gun control in responding to the Charleston shooting and you offer nothing to back that up, just a TPM article that offers no such quote. Pointing out your lie is not a "personal attack" any more than disagreeing with you is a personal attack.

[beam me up scottie]

157. He spoke about it on Jul 27, and I already explained why banning makes more sense than trying to sue

This has been discussed over and over here, I can't help it if you don't understand why trying to sue the weapons manufacturers for producing a legal product doesn't work and why banning those weapons is the only way to stop people from buying them.

You claimed Bernie called for gun control in responding to the Charleston shooting

No, I did not. I said "Except not only he has talked about gun control, he voted for it" and proved it by posting this article:

Sanders Votes for Background Checks, Assault Weapons Ban

WASHINGTON, April 17 – Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) today voted for expanded background checks on gun buyers and for a ban on assault weapons but the Senate rejected those central planks of legislation inspired by the shootings of 20 first-grade students and six teachers in Newtown, Conn.

“Nobody believes that gun control by itself is going to end the horrors we have seen in Newtown, Conn., Aurora, Colo., Blacksburg, Va., Tucson, Ariz. and other American communities,” Sanders said. “There is a growing consensus, however, in Vermont and across America that we have got to do as much as we can to end the cold-blooded, mass murders of innocent people. I believe very strongly that we also have got to address the mental health crisis in our country and make certain that help is available for people who may be a danger to themselves and others,” Sanders added.

The amendment on expanded background checks needed 60 votes to pass but only 54 senators voted for it. “To my mind it makes common sense to keep these weapons out of the hands of people with criminal records or mental health histories,” Sanders said.

Under current federal law, background checks are not performed for tens of thousands of sales – up to 40 percent of all gun transfers – at gun shows or over the Internet. The amendment would have required background checks for all gun sales in commercial settings regardless of whether the seller is a licensed dealer. The compromise proposal would have exempted sales between “family, friends, and neighbors.”

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/sanders-votes-for-background-checks-assault-weapons-ban

I also said he talked about gun violence and racism after Charleston and proved it by posting this article:

Sanders: Charleston Shooting Reminder Of 'Ugly Stain Of Racism' In US

Presidential candidate Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) on Thursday condemned the shooting at a historically black church in Charleston, S.C. as a "tragic reminder of the ugly stain of racism" tainting America.

"This senseless violence fills me with outrage, disgust and a deep, deep sadness," Sanders tweeted.

In a longer statement, the Democratic presidential contender said the killings, which were blamed on a white suspect whose victims included state Sen. Clementa Pinckney (D), showed that the U.S. had a long way to go in escaping its history of racial violence.

"The hateful killing of nine people praying inside a church is a horrific reminder that, while we have made significant progress in advancing civil rights in this country, we are far from eradicating racism," he said.

"Our thoughts and prayers are with the families and their congregation," Sanders added.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/charleston-shooting-bernie-sanders-racism

And here's what he said on MTP in July:

CHUCK TODD:

You were in Louisiana, so let me start with the tragic news there and get into the politics of it a little bit, which is having to do with the issue of gun control. A lot of Democrats, President Obama has expressed some remorse that he hasn't been able to make more progress on gun control. And you continue to straddle a line here. You talk about, you're sort of pro NRA votes in Vermont, having to do with being about Vermont.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

Chuck, that's not what I said. I come from the state which has virtually no gun control. And yet, I voted to ban certain types of assault weapons, I voted to close the gun show loophole. And I voted for instant background checks. And what I said is that as a nation, we can't continue screaming at each other, or else we've got to find common ground.

CHUCK TODD:

Well, what is that?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

Well, where the common ground is, for a start, universal instant background checks. Nobody should have a gun who has a criminal background, who's involved in domestic abuse situations, people should not have guns who are going to hurt other people, who are unstable. And second of all I believe that we need to make sure that certain types of guns used to kill people, exclusively, not for hunting, they should not be sold in the United States of America.


And we have a huge loophole now with gun shows that should be eliminated. There may be other things that we have to do. But coming from a rural state, I think I can communicate with folks coming from urban states, where guns mean different things than they do in Vermont, where it's used for hunting. That's where we've got to go. We don't have to argue with each other and yell at each other, but we need a common-sense solution.

CHUCK TODD:

You bring up the instant background checks. If you look at what appears to be the situation in Louisiana, the situation in Charleston, there were background checks made, and they didn't work. They didn't catch what was necessary. Instant background checks lead to more speed and more mistakes. Don't you need longer waiting periods?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

Well, what we need to do is, whatever we need, is a system that works. Bottom line is, I hope that nobody in America disagrees that people, as in the case of the shooter here in Louisiana, who has a history of mental instability, should not be having guns. People who have criminal backgrounds, people who are abusing wives or girlfriends, should not be having guns. That is the issue that I think we can bring people around.

CHUCK TODD:

I guess going back to the question, we have those laws on the books and it's not working.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

Well, we've got to make them stronger. We've got to make them more enforceable. That's what we've got to do.

You remind me of Chucky, always trying to put words in people's mouths.

And just like him you're digging yourself another hole here by trying to lie about what I said, the posts are right there for everyone to see.

The facts are there, you just choose to ignore them because they prove you were wrong when you said:

Hillary has had the guts to talk gun control, while Bernie has avoided it.

His response, or lack thereof, to the recent shootings is telling.

[SunSeeker]

158. There is no date on that graphic. Nor does that quote refer to Charleston.

I am not lying about what you said. You said that Bernie "talked about gun violence and racism after Charleston." You lied. He only blamed Charleston on racism, which is all he says in that TPM article. He did not respond to the Charleston shootings by also decrying gun violence, like Hillary did.

Then later, in July, when his votes against the Brady Bill and for the PLCAA made news, he made those revolting comments to Jake Tapper. Again, he was not discussing that in connection with Charleston. He was dishonestly defending his pro-gun votes rather than speaking out against gun violence.

And no, you did not explain why "banning makes more sense than trying to sue." You just defended these sort of weapons as not being defective, thus people should not be able to sue over them and "bankrupt an entire industry." Those are bullshit NRA talking points, not an explanation.

[beam me up scottie]

159. Offs, he DID speak about gun violence and racism after Charleston.

I've already provided proof so we're done with that.

And no, you did not explain why "banning makes more sense than trying to sue." You just defended these sort of weapons as not being defective, thus people should not be able to sue over them and "bankrupt an entire industry." Those are bullshit NRA talking points, not an explanation.

Suing a company for making a legal product that's later used in a crime didn't work when they tried it before. And I agree with Bernie, you shouldn't be able to penalize a manufacturer who didn't make a defective product or violate any laws because you don't like how that product was used.


And filing lawsuits to bankrupt ANY industry because you don't like their product is unconstitutional.


You can't get rid of liquor, cigarettes or guns because they kill people by suing the manufacturers when they haven't done anything wrong, legislation is the only way to prevent more deaths.


It's makes perfect sense to everyone but irrational Bernie bashers who like to ignore the fact that most Democrats are are pro-gun control but not anti-gun, and that includes Hillary.





Which brings me back to my original point before you went off the rails:


When it comes to civil rights Bernie is FAR to the left of Hillary.


Period.


If you can't prove otherwise with facts about CIVIL RIGHTS then we're done here.

[SunSeeker]

161. He didn't talk about guns in response to Charleston. You have proven nothing.

Your attempt to defend the PLCAA is wrong on so many levels. An AR-15 with a 100-round drum magazine is an unreasonably dangerous, thus defective, product. The lawsuits were not based on the plaintiffs not "liking" these weapons. They were based on product defect liability.

If "suing a company for making a legal product that's later used in a crime didn't work when they tried it before," then why was the PLCAA passed to block these lawsuits? How could such unsuccessful lawsuits "bankrupt an entire industry" necessitating this extreme protection afforded no other consumer product manufacturer?

Bernie may be for some forms of gun control, but his voting his record on guns, and some of his recent rhetoric, shows he's quite willing to pander to gun nuts...and gun manufacturers. That is not going to get us common sense gun control.

[beam me up scottie]

166. A properly functioning weapon - no matter how lethal - is NOT by definition defective.

Jesus Christ, it's like talking to a child. I'm not going to waste my time explaining the definition of "defective" to you now.


Bringing up guns, militias and changing the definitions of words won't change the fact that:


When it comes to civil rights Bernie is FAR to the left of Hillary.


You're entitled to your opinions, not your own facts.




Oh and fyi, every time you kick this thread more people are reading about Hillary and her ties to the Family and reccing the op.

I'm sure the Op appreciates the assistance.

[SunSeeker]

168. It is clear you do not know product liability law.

Bernie Sanders is not "FAR to the left of Hillary on civil rights." People of color know that.. People of color overwhelming favor Hillary. And that is a fact.

[beam me up scottie]

169. Bernie's record on civil rights is superior to Hillary's, your opinion doesn't change that.

Bernie Sanders is not "FAR to the left of Hillary on civil rights.

Bernie Sanders publicly supported lgbt rights for 40 years, Hillary didn't decide they should be granted the same civil rights as heterosexuals until 2013.

That is a fact.

Unless you want to redefine that word too.

Or you don't consider lgbt rights to be civil rights.

[SunSeeker]

170. My opinion counts and is the same as the vast majority of people of color. nt

[beam me up scottie]

171. Not as a FACT it doesn't.

And we are discussing facts, remember?

Which is all that matters when comparing candidates' records on civil rights.

[SunSeeker]

172. The claim that Bernie's position on civil rights is "FAR to the left of Hillary" is an opinion.

It is certainly not a fact, nor an opinion shared by the vast majority of people of color.

[beam me up scottie]

173. Not unless you dismiss her history of opposing equal rights for lgbt people.

You're not seriously doing that, are you?

[SunSeeker]

174. Hillary's position on LGBT rights is the same as Bernie's.

That is a fact.

[beam me up scottie]

175. I said her HISTORY of opposing equal rights for lgbt people.

Nice try, still trying to dismiss it I see.

[SunSeeker]

177. Nope, that is not what you said.

In post 31, and repeatedly thereafter, you said
 

When it comes to civil rights Bernie is FAR to the left of Hillary.

You do not have "history of" in there. That statement is in the present tense. It implies current positions on civil rights. As any perusal of their respective websites makes very clear, their LGBT positions are the same.

[beam me up scottie]

178. What I said exactly in that post:

beam me up scottie (30,881 posts)

31. When it comes to civil rights Bernie is FAR to the left of Hillary.

Or did you forget all of those impassioned speeches she gave while trying to defend "traditional" marriage from lgbt people?

Bernie has always supported equal rights for all.

Hillary not so much, she waited until it became popular to do the right thing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=498271

When you argued with me I posted:

beam me up scottie (30,881 posts)

169. Bernie's record on civil rights is superior to Hillary's, your opinion doesn't change that.

"Bernie Sanders is not "FAR to the left of Hillary on civil rights."

Bernie Sanders publicly supported lgbt rights for 40 years, Hillary didn't decide they should be granted the same civil rights as heterosexuals until 2013.

That is a fact.

Unless you want to redefine that word too.

Or you don't consider lgbt rights to be civil rights.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=498971

And when you continued to argue:

beam me up scottie (30,881 posts)

173. Not unless you dismiss her history of opposing equal rights for lgbt people.

You're not seriously doing that, are you?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=498980

Now you're attempting to derail the conversation because once again, you have been proven wrong.

As any perusal of their respective websites makes very clear, their LGBT positions are the same.

History matters, her history of opposition to equal rights matters.


Unless you don't count lgbt rights as civil rights.

[SunSeeker]

179. I addressed Bernie's problematic voting history above.

He is not far to the left of Hillary on civil rights. Neither in his current position nor his voting history. He voted to enable right wing racist border militias in 2006.

I am not trying to derail any conversation, I am just calling out your lies.

[beam me up scottie]

180. No, you don't get to go back to your first train wreck, this is about CIVIL RIGHTS.

Specifically which candidate has always supported them (Bernie) and which one hasn't (Hillary).

This isn't about guns or militias or your opinion.

Bernie has a stellar civil rights record, he fought for lgbt people long before Hillary entered the arena and long after she opposed same sex marriage.

So you're wrong.

Again.

And your calling me a liar only makes it more satisfying.

Because that's all you have left, isn't it?

Just like a toddler you can't admit you're wrong so you lash out at the adult who corrects you.

I am enjoying every second of this, so please continue.

I love teaching preschool.

[lunamagica]

190. As a Latina

I will never forgive him for his YES-vote to protect the Minutemen solely on the southern border that, three years later, resulted in the murder of two American citizens with Spanish last names of which one of those Americans was a nine year old girl, Brisenia Flores.

[artislife]

191. I do not engage

With Hillary supporters under advisement.
Thank you for your understanding.

[lunamagica]

192. Sure, ignore this fact if you wish. No problem eom

[SunSeeker]

87. I am citing to the Congressional Record, not some locked thread.

No Bernie supporter has been able to explain that vote. Certainly Bernie hasn't addressed it. But Representative Loretta Sanchez had a lot to say about it back in 2006.

[beam me up scottie]

92. Ikr? "That racist gun nut Bernie hates brown people" was last month's meme.

But hey, why not double down on the race baiting now?

After all, it worked out so well in that thread, right?

And this one too:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026737025

[SunSeeker]

98. Your words, not mine. How is the Congressional Record a "smear"?

How is what Representative Loretta Sanchez said "race baiting"?

You brought his record up, not me. I disputed your claim that Sanders is "FAR" to the left of Hillary on civil rights. I disputed that with a concrete, fully supported and true example of an actual vote he took.

[Nite Owl]

119. That's exactly it

She waits to find out what is popular. She doesn't want to stick her neck out and put up with the grief and that is not leadership.

[beam me up scottie]

124. In 2008 it was popular to support gun owners and oppose same sex marriage.

Now she's changed her message on the former and flip flopped on the latter.

Then there's the IWR vote, don't even get me started...

[Cosmic Kitten]

47. Yeah, except for that whole "war" thingy and the catastrophic "Arab spring"

otherwise, who could tell them apart

[artislife]

89. You are on fire!

That was over ....there somewhere.

[arcane1]

44. Places that charge a $3,000 admission n/t

[frylock]

46. Like the home of a wealthy donor?

[Luminous Animal]

51. Bernie has been up front that he is going after everyone's vote. That he won't abandon the red

states. Brainwashed conservative youth are an intriguing target. Myself, as a decades long activist who has had many opportunities to work with people mostly ideologically opposed to me but had one or two specific goals aligned, this is a no brainer.

Bernie is not going to pander to their bigotry, he is going to reach out to their self-professed Christianity.

Some of those youth's are going to have a major disconnect. There are going to be ideas expressed to them in such a way that have they have never heard before.

[George II]

94. Of course he's going after every vote - he'll need them to get above 20% in the polls!

[artislife]

28. They might not pay enough....nt

[Cosmic Kitten]

45. IF IF IF... your hypothetical isn't relevant or based in reality.

You thinking of building a straw man?

There is NO HYPOCRISY since the "what if"
you created never happened!


You want to play "what if", start another OP.

[SunSeeker]

33. Pretty desperate lie you got there. Nope, Hillary is not a member of "The Family."

None of your links support that. Nor is she a fundamentalist Christian. Unlike fundies, she is a feminist, pro-choice, supports birth control and supports equal rights for LGBT.

Hillary supporters aren't "apoplectic" about Bernie speaking at Liberty University. But Bernie supporters appear pretty desperate to try to explain it or deflect, as you are doing.

No, the "stench of hypocrisy" you smell is coming from Bernie supporters who weave nefarious conspiracy theories should Hillary be pictured talking with a conservative, but when Bernie speaks at a vile fundie institution to an audience forced to be there, it's wonderful.

[Cosmic Kitten]

52. "But she had also relied on the "extended faith family" that came to her aid"

After a glancing shot at Republican "pharisees," Clinton explained that, of course, her "very serious" grounding in faith had helped her weather the affair. But she had also relied on the "extended faith family" that came to her aid, "people whom I knew who were literally praying for me in prayer chains, who were prayer warriors for me."


Such references to spiritual warfare—prayer as battle against Satan, evil, and sin—might seem like heavy evangelical rhetoric for the senator from New York, but they went over well with the Sojourners audience, as did her call to "inject faith into policy." It was language that recalled Clinton's Jesus moment a year earlier, when she'd summoned the Bible to decry a Republican anti-immigrant initiative that she said would "criminalize the good Samaritan...and even Jesus himself." Liberal Christians crowed ("Hillary Clinton Shows the Way Democrats Can Use the Bible," declared a blogger at TPMCafe) while conservative pundits cried foul, accusing Clinton of scoring points with a faith not really her own.

In fact, Clinton's God talk is more complicated—and more deeply rooted—than either fans or foes would have it, a revelation not just of her determination to out-Jesus the gop, but of the powerful religious strand in her own politics. Over the past year, we've interviewed dozens of Clinton's friends, mentors, and pastors about her faith, her politics, and how each shapes the other. And while media reports tend to characterize Clinton's subtle recalibration of tone and style as part of the Democrats' broader move to recapture the terrain of "moral values," those who know her say there's far more to it than that.

Through all of her years in Washington, Clinton has been an active participant in conservative Bible study and prayer circles that are part of a secretive Capitol Hill group known as the Fellowship. Her collaborations with right-wingers such as Senator Sam Brownback (R-Kan.) and former Senator Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) grow in part from that connection. "A lot of evangelicals would see that as just cynical exploitation," says the Reverend Rob Schenck, a former leader of the militant anti-abortion group Operation Rescue who now ministers to decision makers in Washington. "I don't....there is a real good that is infected in people when they are around Jesus talk, and open Bibles, and prayer."
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2007/09/hillarys-prayer-hillary-clintons-religion-and-politics

Hillary Clinton member of "cell church" run by "The Family"


There has been quite a lot of writing recently on Talk to Action (and today in regards to a secretive political dominionist group known as "The Fellowship" or "The Family"--especially in relation to an upcoming book by Jeff Sharlet (titled The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power--you can pre-order here) which threatens to blow the "Family Secret" wide open.

Frederick Clarkson here on DailyKos has recently reported on an NBC News report--along with a recent Mother Jones article re Sherlet's book--which give disturbing confirmation to something I've suspected for a time: Namely, that "The Family" uses a particularly abusive "discipling and shepherding" model common in neopentecostal dominionist cell churches.

The abusive tactics could have major implications politically--especially as Sharlet's book has noted that no less than Hillary Clinton is a member of one of the cell-churches linked to "The Family".
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/04/04/490211/-Hillary-Clinton-member-of-cell-church-run-by-The-Family

[SunSeeker]

68. Your blogger source, "dogemperor," basically says the same nothing.

Having prayed on occasion in Washington with people "linked" to The Family makes her no more a member of The Family than Bernie praying with the Liberty University audience before his speech.

The Mother Jones cite certainly does not establish or even suggest Hillary is a member of The Family.

[okasha]

116. That was a women's prayer group she belonged to,

and no doubt some of them also had unfaithful husbands. Sometimes political and religious differences mean nothing compared to shared experience and shared pain.

[SunSeeker]

150. It is really dispicable to bash her for turning to prayer when she was in pain.

From what I recall, her life was a living hell at the time. Instead of getting the sympathy normally afforded women who are the victims of infidelity, she got scorn. Her prayer circles were probably the only place she was not judged.

[delrem]

151. That reads as something similar to the story of Tammy Faye Bakker.

There are differences, though. Tammy Faye Baker was into money, for sure, but I don't recall her being all that gung ho about war - except maybe to be used if it was convenient. But Hillary Clinton is into both money and war.

[TheKentuckian]

57. True. She is only the next tier down a "Friend of the Family". Pro Choice or political calculation

keeps her own of the inner circle of that nasty ass prosperity cult.

[SunSeeker]

71. Under your standard, Bernie speaking at Liberty University makes him a "Friend of the Family."

[TheKentuckian]

106. It isn't my standard but rather the prosperity cult's.

She is the one who is a cell member, calls Sharlet a friend and mentor, attended the private prayer circles, and chummy it up with them.

I don't determine their organizational structure and levels association.

If you are up here trying to pretend that her only connection is the big prayer breakfast or try to conflate the regular private prayer groups and circles with that even then good look with that pile of bullshit.

[SunSeeker]

148. Innuendo and conspiracy theories is all you have.

There is no factual basis for the assertion that Hillary is a member of The Family.

[haikugal]

203. Not Sharlet, Coe...Doug Coe...

Just a correction to keep things clear.

[George II]

38. Is this the way that Sanders' followers....

......are going to "cover" for him speaking at a right-wing homophobic, sexist, anti-semitic college?

Pretty weak.

[JackInGreen]

48. You think he needs cover?

I love watching our people go into hostile territory to challenge them directly. You'd prefer we talk to only people that agree with us?

[George II]

50. Sadly, based on recent polls, he's not doing that, he IS talking to people that agree with him.

[Cosmic Kitten]

59. There is a "Poll" in Portland this weekend!

Hillary who wants attendees to fork
over $2700 to have the privileged
of listening to her...
she got "over 100" woooooo!

Yet Bernie already needed to find a bigger venue
due to the overwhelming RSVPs.

Wall St vs Main St, live, in Portland Oregon

Hillary Clinton, appearing at a $2,700-a-ticket fundraiser in one of Portland's most exclusive neighborhoods Wednesday, reportedly had some interesting things to say about marijuana, her Republican rivals and the economic successes of her husband's presidential administration.

Reporters were kept up the street from the fundraiser at a palatial Dunthorpe neighborhood home on the Willamette River, but several of the more than 100 attendees provided some insight into her closed-door speech.

http://www.oregonlive.com/mapes/index.ssf/2015/08/hillary_clintons_portland_fund.html

She's our "champion" alright

[beam me up scottie]

78. When HC supporters try to paint him as sympathetic to homophobes, sexists and anti-semites, yes

Pretty weak indeed.

Hypocrites never like taking their medicine.

[840high]

110. He does not need a cover. Good

for him.

[George II]

114. He probably doesn't, but many of his followers feel he does.

[NCTraveler]

42. lol

[Cosmic Kitten]

62. Great retort!

Maybe Hillary could hire you as a spokes person?

[NCTraveler]

176. It doesn't deserve the respect of any more thought than that.

You'll figure it out as you go.

[Thinkingabout]

49. When was Hillary associated with the Family?

[Luminous Animal]

61. As First Lady and as a Senator she attended regular prayer meetings.

In fact, Clinton's God talk is more complicated—and more deeply rooted—than either fans or foes would have it, a revelation not just of her determination to out-Jesus the GOP, but of the powerful religious strand in her own politics. Over the past year, we've interviewed dozens of Clinton's friends, mentors, and pastors about her faith, her politics, and how each shapes the other. And while media reports tend to characterize Clinton's subtle recalibration of tone and style as part of the Democrats' broader move to recapture the terrain of "moral values," those who know her say there's far more to it than that.

Through all of her years in Washington, Clinton has been an active participant in conservative Bible study and prayer circles that are part of a secretive Capitol Hill group known as the Fellowship. Her collaborations with right-wingers such as Senator Sam Brownback (R-Kan.) and former Senator Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) grow in part from that connection. "A lot of evangelicals would see that as just cynical exploitation," says the Reverend Rob Schenck, a former leader of the militant anti-abortion group Operation Rescue who now ministers to decision makers in Washington. "I don't....there is a real good that is infected in people when they are around Jesus talk, and open Bibles, and prayer."

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2007/09/hillarys-prayer-hillary-clintons-religion-and-politics

And I will add. I read Shallot's book, "The Family". The organization is extremely fascist and powerful. Their God is power. Their Jesus is power. Their guidance is power. They teach that the world's most extreme despots (Hitler, Mao,…) use tactics to be emulated in the sole quest for power.

[George II]

66. Ooooh, regular prayer meetings, like that's something to be avoided? MILLIONS of good...

....honest, hardworking Americans attend "regular prayer meetings". Is that something to be ashamed of?

[Cosmic Kitten]

72. Regular prayer meetings with fundamentalist bigots.

Pretty sure it was her fundamentalist friends
she had in mind when she explained how marriage
"fundamental bedrock principle" going back
"into the mists of history"

Clinton sounded like a staunch social conservative
NOT a gay rights champion?


But then... she flip-flopped...
I mean "evolved"

[George II]

76. Most likely "it has been reported", huh?

[Luminous Animal]

129. Reported in an extremely well researched book. So well researched that the organization, The Family

or alternatively known as The Fellowship has cut off access to their archives to any other person outside of the organization.

[aspirant]

81. What did they pray for?

[George II]

83. Ask cosmic kitten, she seems to be the expert on these secret taboo prayer meetings.

[aspirant]

99. You seem to disagree and know the content, so I'm asking you.

[Thinkingabout]

84. No, I dont understand why things is even posted about Hillary joining a prayer group.

[840high]

113. Deoends on who you pray with.

[Thinkingabout]

70. I got it, she joined a prayer group, good for Hillary.

[George II]

82. Apparently that's taboo for Sanders' followers.

[beam me up scottie]

97. Yes, we hate Christians and the Baby Jesus too.

[Luminous Animal]

101. She joined a prayer group organized by a decades long fascist promoting organization..

Anti-gay and segregated by gender. An organization that promotes a "muscular" Jesus unconcerned with the plight of the poor but rather a Jesus that promotes wealth and power. This is an organization that has successfully wooed leaders of some of the worse despots. This is an organization that has successfully wooed leaders in Africa that promote imprisonment and/or death for members of the LBGTQ communities and those who support them.

Hillary not only prayed with them, she praised their leader in her book and she praised the support they offered during the Clinton/Lewinsky debacle. The thing is, they weren't on her side to support her through pain… they were there to bolster her quest for power.

[Thinkingabout]

103. And now Bernie is going to speak at Liberty University, LU does not have a great

Reputation with LGBT, etc. Why is this happening?

[jeff47]

186. Because you don't win new votes by only talking to people who already agree with you. (nt)

[okasha]

107. Did you read the book, now?

Even though you don't know the author's name?

[Luminous Animal]

126. Yes. I read the book. I'm on my "smart" phone and too lazy to correct it after 2 tries.

Did you read the book? Have you read his articles? My book is heavily underlined, bookmarked, and includes extensive points for further research. How about your book?

[okasha]

128. Yes, yes, and yes.

And you're still wrong.

[Luminous Animal]

131. And yet, you've not presented one shred of evidence that I am wrong other than you say so.

C'mon. You know everyone who cares to read this thread are waiting for your debunking. You've done nothing but avoided providing evidence of such.

LET THE DEBUNKING BEGIN!

[okasha]

135. I have a better idea.

Suppose you present some evidence that you're right. You're the one making the positive claim.

You can start by telling us when and why the Family started to admit women.

[Luminous Animal]

138. Nope. Still looking for that debunking. That was the best idea not yet addressed.

[haikugal]

204. I suggest everyone read his book, it's excellent.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Family-Secret-Fundamentalism-American/dp/0060560053


Jeff Sharlet is the New York Times and national bestselling author of THE FAMILY (Harper, 2008), C STREET (Little, Brown, 2010), and SWEET HEAVEN WHEN I DIE (W.W. Norton, 2011). With Peter Manseau he wrote KILLING THE BUDDHA (Free Press, 2004) and edited BELIEVER, BEWARE (Beacon, 2009). Of his most recent book, SWEET HEAVEN WHEN I DIE, The Washington Post writes, "This book belongs in the tradition of long-form, narrative nonfiction best exemplified by Joan Didion, John McPhee [and] Norman Mailer... Sharlet deserves a place alongside such masters." Excerpts from Sharlet's previous book, C STREET, were honored with the Molly Ivins Prize, the Thomas Jefferson Award, the Outspoken Award, and the National Lesbian & Gay Journalists Asoociation's first and second prizes for feature writing. Barbara Ehrenreich called THE FAMILY "one of the most compelling and brilliantly researched exposes you'll ever read."


Sharlet is Mellon Assistant Professor of Creative Nonfiction at Dartmouth College and a contributing editor at Harper's Magazine and Rolling Stone. He has been a frequent commentator on MSNBC's "Rachel Maddow Show" and NPR's "Fresh Air" and has appeared on "The Daily Show" with Jon Stewart, "Real Time with Bill Maher," "Hardball," "Democracy Now," and other programs.

Sharlet is a cofounder of KillingTheBuddha.com, winner of the Utne/Alternative Press Award, and TheRevealer.org, created at NYU's Center for Religion and Media with support from the Pew Charitable Trust. He has received grants and fellowships from The MacDowell Colony, the Blue Mountain Center, The Nation Institute, and other organizations. His writing on music has twice been featured in the annual BEST MUSIC WRITING volume.

Just a little background for ya....

[Cosmic Kitten]

63. Do you have the Google on your interwebz?

[George II]

67. A sure of abject desperation.....I wonder what the smears will be like in January 2016?

[Cosmic Kitten]

79. Probably just like they are today.

You know, gun nut, hates immigrants, ignores PoC,
SOCIALIST, doesn't care about women' issues and now....
speaks at "bigoted fundamentalist college"

That look like A LOT of abject desperation
from you know where, George

[aspirant]

85. No smears, just wishing Hillary well as a civilian grandmother

[Hydra]

100. Serious question?

Because I've known about her "visits" for years.

[jalan48]

74. I don't see how any thinking person can believe in a God to start with.

To think that the leader of our great nation believes in an invisible man in the sky, who watches and keeps track of all our individual actions, is a very scary thing. Besides, I thought that was what the NSA was designed to do.

[Juicy_Bellows]

160. I agree.

A politician can't, unfortunately, come out as an atheist. However, they can refrain from this kind of behavior.

[beam me up scottie]

164. Bernie comes close, though.

I think he's an atheist but can't come out of the closet.

And as a lifelong uppity atheist myself I've always been proud of him for not pandering to Christians.

[Juicy_Bellows]

165. Yes he does.

We've got to get everyone we can to feel the Bern!

[beam me up scottie]

167. They're feeling it now!

And the fire will only continue to spread as more and more people hear what he has to say.

[CanadaexPat]

96. thank you for posting this, it was my first thought too

The Family members probably figure in the current attack on Planned Parenthood.

[Thinkingabout]

105. As is Liberty University, I would have skipped this one.

I guess if the digging continues a lot more will come out on both candidates and some of the references does not come from good sources. It would be better to halt the Swift Boating, it is not going to help Bernie.

[MoveIt]

207. its not that kind of church

see post 206

[George II]

118. As George Costanza says.....

[Buzz cook]

123. Maybe because the charges against Clinton are Bull.

Obama attended more than one national prayer breakfasts. Is he a nasty fundi?


As to no one pointing this lie out, hell it was a major talking point for Obama supporters in 08. I lost friends when I proved that it was a lie because they "knew" in their heart of hearts the Clinton was a secret xtian fundi just waiting for the chance to an impose Old Testament theistic state.

At least it's not a right wing lie, the supposed left came up with this one all by their own little selves.

[Luminous Animal]

141. Hillary was a regularly attendee. This was not a once a year event. Why does every Hillary pretend

that it was?

In fact, Clinton's God talk is more complicated—and more deeply rooted—than either fans or foes would have it, a revelation not just of her determination to out-Jesus the GOP, but of the powerful religious strand in her own politics. Over the past year, we've interviewed dozens of Clinton's friends, mentors, and pastors about her faith, her politics, and how each shapes the other. And while media reports tend to characterize Clinton's subtle recalibration of tone and style as part of the Democrats' broader move to recapture the terrain of "moral values," those who know her say there's far more to it than that.

Through all of her years in Washington, Clinton has been an active participant in conservative Bible study and prayer circles that are part of a secretive Capitol Hill group known as the Fellowship. Her collaborations with right-wingers such as Senator Sam Brownback (R-Kan.) and former Senator Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) grow in part from that connection. "A lot of evangelicals would see that as just cynical exploitation," says the Reverend Rob Schenck, a former leader of the militant anti-abortion group Operation Rescue who now ministers to decision makers in Washington. "I don't....there is a real good that is infected in people when they are around Jesus talk, and open Bibles, and prayer."

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2007/09/hillarys-prayer-hillary-clintons-religion-and-politics

[artislife]

143. *shudder..nt

[Buzz cook]

152. Yup that's the article

Short on facts and heavy on innuendo.


Here's one of the contradictions.

Coe has been an intimate of every president since Ford, but he rarely imposes on chief executives, who see him as a slightly mystical but apolitical figure. Rather, Coe uses his access to the Oval Office as currency with lesser leaders. "If Doug Coe can get you some face time with the President of the United States," one official told the author of a Princeton study of the National Prayer Breakfast last year, "then you will take his call and seek his friendship. That's power."

And yet the article would have us believe the Coe and his organization had a controlling influence on Clinton. The authors, Joyce and Sharlet want it both ways.

During the eight years Bill Clinton was in office they attended Foundry United Methodist Church. This guy was their pastor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Philip_Wogaman If Wogaman's picture isn't under the definition for liberal xtian it should be.

How does the article you've cited balance that out? In short it doesn't. I'm betting because the boring liberal methodist part interferes with the crazed xtian fundi narrative the authors are working for.

Lets go back to your article.

We contacted all of Clinton's Fellowship cell mates, but only one agreed to speak—though she stressed that there's much she's not "at liberty" to reveal. Grace Nelson used to be the organizer of the Florida Governor's Prayer Breakfast, which makes her a piety broker in Florida politics—she would decide who could share the head table with Jeb Bush. Clinton's prayer cell was tight-knit, according to Nelson, who recalled that one of her conservative prayer partners was at first loath to pray for the first lady, but learned to "love Hillary as much as any of us love Hillary." Cells like these, Nelson added, exist in "parliaments all over the world," with all welcome so long as they submit to "the person of Jesus" as the source of their power.

The big scare quotes around "at liberty" are meant to lead us to believe that Ms. Nelson is being coerced to keep silent for fear of some celestial or temporal religious punishment. Give me a break, if they had left off the quotes people might have come to the much more rational assumption that Ms. Grace felt the same privacy held for prayer meeting as with interactions between clergy and worshipers.

So, have you read Bill Clinton's bio? (Don't read Hillary's she's a horrible writer*) In it he talks about his relationship with Arkansas' Pentecostal community(his words). He reached out to them in Arkansas and they help him get legislation passed. During the impeachment those same Pentecostals reached out to Bill to give their support.
Yet I doubt you'll tell me Bill Clinton is a tongues speaking, gifts of the spirits believing, holy roller (literally), xtian.
No far from it, Clinton learned how to communicate with the Pentecostal community of Arkansas in part because he's a good person and they were part of his community and in part because he's a skilled politician and they were a powerful interest group.

I'm going to suggest to you that Hillary Clinton lived in Arkansas and that she knew both Bill Clinton and the Pentecostals. I would also suggest that Hillary is both a good person and a skilled politician and that she learned to communicate with people for a variety of reasons without changing her core persona.

Finally which makes more sense to you that Clinton is a skilled politician who is able to work with people she disagrees with or that she is a zombie worshiping xtian chomping at the bit to impose a theistic state?


* It really is a poorly written book, she could have used a good ghost writer, it's so obvious she didn't. There are a few interesting factoids though. If you do read it you'll find that in context you couldn't interpret her mention on the prayer group as cri de coeur for her co-coreligionist as it is pointing out people who were nice to her while everyone else was shitting on her.

[jeff47]

187. So....Hillary needed Coe's help to get facetime with Bill?

And yet the article would have us believe the Coe and his organization had a controlling influence on Clinton. The authors, Joyce and Sharlet want it both ways.

During the eight years Bill Clinton was in office they attended Foundry United Methodist Church. This guy was their pastor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Philip_Wogaman If Wogaman's picture isn't under the definition for liberal xtian it should be.

How does the article you've cited balance that out? In short it doesn't. I'm betting because the boring liberal methodist part interferes with the crazed xtian fundi narrative the authors are working for.

Attending prayer groups with "the Family" does not make it impossible to also attend another church.

Finally which makes more sense to you that Clinton is a skilled politician who is able to work with people she disagrees with or that she is a zombie worshiping xtian chomping at the bit to impose a theistic state?

What political favors did she get from "the Family" then? If she's only there for political gain, what did she gain?

[Buzz cook]

193. Oh please, you're just being snarky.

I never said she was only involved with the family only for political gain.

You need to make the choice and in my opinion crazed fundi dominionist is not the more reasoned one. So which is it? Are you a true believer or just trying to score cheap debating points?

[jeff47]

195. The title was. But you brought up using them for access to the president.

I never said she was only involved with the family only for political gain.

Except that was the entire point of your defense - that the group is used for political power. What political gain did she get from them?

You need to make the choice and in my opinion crazed fundi dominionist is not the more reasoned one

Well, let's look at her public actions.

One big flag is her opposing "gay marriage" until two years ago. Making her one of the last prominent Democrats to support it.

Being one of the last sounds a lot like supporting The Family's "one man, one woman" position until it was no longer politically attainable.

Rounding up votes for welfare reform? Sounds a lot like The Family's prosperity gospel.

Doesn't mean she's a mindless follower. Just that they appear to have significant influence on her.

[Buzz cook]

199. Obama didn't support gay marriage either.

And Clinton was far from the last. Looks more like political calculation than religious fervor.
Welfare reform? That was Bill Clinton, but even if she had remember this was during the Clinton economy when workfare actually worked.
It was a long term failure because Bush wrecked the economy, something that should have been expected. And on the other hand as you remember republicans controlled congress and there were enough blue dogs to over turn a veto. So it was either Clinton's version or Newt Gingrich's.
As to the prosperity gospel that is more in tune with tax cuts than welfare reform.

If they have influence on her then where in her voting record in the senate does she vote against the democratic majority and for a religious piece of legislation.

Remember that Obama kept and expanded the faith based initiative, so you'll have to go right of that.

The point of my defense in that graph was that Coe used his contacts with powerful people to influence lesser people. Sorry if you missed that.
And as you know it was not the sole part of my defense.

More and more it seems as if you're treating this as an exercise in word play. So I'm done. See you on another topic.

[jeff47]

200. Yep. But Obama didn't join the Family's prayer groups on a regular basis

Nor has Obama praised those prayer groups on multiple occasions.

And Clinton was far from the last.

Who was later?

Welfare reform? That was Bill Clinton

And Hillary Clinton claimed she lobbied for the bill in Congress, and repeatedly praised it. Including all the "responsibility" talking points in "It Takes a Village".

It was a long term failure because Bush wrecked the economy

If you think economies always boom, you are wrong. Welfare reform was always doomed, because recessions happen. Even under Democratic presidents.

As to the prosperity gospel that is more in tune with tax cuts than welfare reform.

No, a large part of welfare reform was to turn the wicked welfare queens into righteous people. Prosperity gospel has both heroes and villains.

The point of my defense in that graph was that Coe used his contacts with powerful people to influence lesser people.

And the question you keep avoiding is "what did Clinton get out of that?" You are attempting to claim Clinton was not there for religious reasons. That she does not believe the same things that The Family believes. That leaves political gain as the only reason for her to be there. So what was her political gain?

[stonecutter357]

181. .

[Cosmic Kitten]

184. K$R because WE CAN DO BETTER

Bernie will speak to ALL voters
Bernie cares about everyone
Bernie is not bought and paid for by oligarchs

Bernie can and will work to earn all votes,
and that's how WE will win the general election.

Bernie IS the People's Champion!

[MoveIt]

185. The "faithful" must deny that this happened!

And this is just a misogynist attack on Hillary, who just needed spiritual support from some bigoted megalomaniacal fundamentalists!!

[artislife]

188. Hillary is just hanging out with her people

I wonder what the topics are that they pray for.







My imagination isn't very happy with its conclusion.

[Cosmic Kitten]

189. They pray to stay in office, and create a "Christian Nation"

[KittyWampus]

194. Hillary is NOT part of "The Family". She went to meetings to schmooze and appear

like she was one of the cool kids.

The FACT is that many, many politicians have gone to the Family's Prayer Breakfasts.

[Cosmic Kitten]

196. You do realize that is worse, right?

If she will fake it or lie to others
she will fake it and lie to anyone.

She didn't only go to "breakfasts"
she is part of a "cell"

Do you know what a "cell" is?
If it was an ISIS "cell" would you
be so cavalier?

[haikugal]

205. We aren't talking about attending prayer breakfasts...

Look up thread or read Sharlets book. He isn't a hack as much as some here want him to be.

[George II]

197. Stench of hypocricy? Very interesting discussion:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251500101

Bernie Sanders mentions "The Family's" National Prayer Breakfast on his website:

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/newswatch/020714

What say you?

[beam me up scottie]

198. *snort*

Continual association with an organization that participated in working in Uganda to increase the laws against gay people.


is identical to


Mentioning that organization on a website.


Yeah, that doesn't make any frigging sense.

Nice try though, George! Keep it up, eventually you'll get the hang of Bernie Bashing. I have faith in you.

[haikugal]

206. More..

Over at Daily Kos, a spirited debate took place when I posted this there. Jeff Sharlet turned up and offered some further background to skeptics:

As I wrote in the Harper's piece -- and as I document, with footnotes, at length in my forthcoming book -- the Fellowship is not praying for peace and love, tho they do like the stability of a corrupt foreign regime. Some highlights:

Fellowship forms to oppose progressive unions and the New Deal. First victory is booting progressive gov of Washington State and replacing w/ Arthur Langlie, an open admirer of fascism.

Fellowship recruits former Nazis and Nazi collaborators, such as Herman Abs -- "Hitler's Banker" -- into prayer cells with American politicians.

Fellowship inner circle members Senators Frank Carlson and Homer Capehart visit Haiti's Papa Doc Duvalier, declare him a Christian, and arrange for military aid.

Late 60s: Fellowship arranges "prayer cells" consisting of oilmen, American congressmen, and Suharto's legislators. Fellowship prayer cells unite to lobby for increased aid to Brazil's dictatorial generals.

Early 70s: Fellowship politicans lobby for overthrow of Salvador Allende.

1980s: Fellowship arranges a prayer cell for Siad Barre, lunatic dictator of Somalia, with Senator Chuck Grassley and defense contractors. Military aid for Somalia nearly doubles.

Recent years: Fellowship politicians team up to pass the Silk Road Act, simultaneously supporting Central Asian dictators and impinging on the ability of democratic movements to organize.

Yes, I know what "God-led government" means to most Christians--I've taught American religious history at NYU. That's not what the Fellowship means. Their history is one of supporting capitalism at any cost, strongman governments, and American imperial power. Doug Coe, the leader -- whom Hillary admires -- is on video stating that Hitler, Lenin, and Stalin are among the very few leaders who understood Jesus' methods, if not his message.

That ain't peace and love.

Author of THE FAMILY: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power (HarperCollins, Spring 08)



by Frederick Clarkson on Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 11:10:23 PM EST

I picked this up as a comment at talk to action which has a good article from 2007...and yes, it includes Hillary Clintons history with the organization.

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2007/12/17/34033/248

From the article titled

The Question Hillary Clinton Won't Answer


Way beyond the faith wars of the moment -- the pandering to interest groups, the posturing to the press -- there is a permanent war for influence waged by those seeking power via the spiritual lives of our political leaders.

It's something that rarely surfaces and the media is loath to report. Some pols enter this arena with their eyes open, some probably not. One of the competitors is a shadowy, religious right group known as "The Family". Targets for recruitment include both Republicans and Democrats. A few years ago journalist Jeff Sharlet went undercover to learn about the machinations of this secretive network -- and his findings were published in Harpers magazine: Jesus plus nothing: Undercover among America's secret theocrats.

In a follow-up article last fall in Mother Jones, Sharlet and Kathryn Joyce detailed the involvement of Senator Hillary Clinton in this group. She refused to talk with them about it.[div/]