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Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:04 AM

 

Bernie Supporters - Please read my post

Heyo!! It's me again. I wrote a post this morning that I felt needed to be read by supporters of Bernie. I wrote it late in a thread and I worry that it will be lost in the GD-P shuffle.
Please read the whole thing and think it over for a bit, I'd really appreciate it if you will think over what I wrote and take it into consideration.

Response to JDPriestly (Reply #231)Sun Aug 2, 2015, 05:28 AM
Star Member bravenak (14,664 posts)
354. I actually appreciate the way you avoid being nasty towards Hillary. I try not to myself and I dislike her.

I usually find your posts reasonable and even if I do not agree, I can understand your policy differences with her and enjoy your positive support for Bernie. Nobody is perfect, but I do not see you as a negative supporter.

Now, I am Ideologically similar to Bernie as far as my politics go, although I find myself putting a bit more emphasis on the social justice aspect, rather than the economical. I see you as an ally in the fight for Black lives matters and appreciate that and hope that everyone can join us in our fight. You are on my side in my fight for justice, and I am on your side in your fight for economic fairness.

I do not hate Bernie or his supporters. I actually prefer Bernie and do not like Hillary. If I say things about what I think is hurting him with black voters, it is not because I want to trash him or you guys, I want you to know what I see and really am trying to help.

I want Bernie's supporters to include things that are important to black voters and place them at the top of the list of urgent business. I truly believe that the group that wins the support of black activists in movements like Black Lives Matters will win the black vote. And similarly with Latinos, the person and supporters that show the most concern, listen to hispanics in our nation and empathizes and places their concerns at the top along with economic and social justice will win their respect and votes. Minority communities are big on respect and appreciate attention paid to the issues that affect our communities specifically. We also want our vote earned and for the candidates to come to us and ask for our votes.

Bernie and his group have to spread goodwill throughout the Obama coalition. They need to steal Hillary voters. I fear that the active dislike for the man that many African Americans respect and love (honestly, we place him at the top of the list of All Time Greatest African Americans, above Martin Luther King Jr and MalcolmX, he to us is the all time greatest African American) is harming Bernie tremendously. We have an emotional connection to him, no amount of logic and policy discussions will change that. We do not like people who do not appreciate him and his accomplishments.

I say these things not to harn; but to assist. When I speak with other African Americans about the policy issues and differences between the candidates, they seem to actually PREFER Bernie's positions. But there is a lack of trust, and we find it difficult to get interested in a new (to us) candidate. We know the Clintons. We know they made terrible decisions. But when supporters beat us up with those facts, it shuts down the conversation and everyone retreats to their previously held positions. The Clintons are our default choice. The Clintons are praising Obama and that brings them enough goodwill to assuage the fears of another Welfare Reform debacle or Mass Incarceration mess. The Clintons are busy speaking on our issues and apologizing for past mistakes. I know that does not make up for the past, but when has America EVER made up for things done to black people? Never. An apology for hurting us is so damn rare that we forgive.

Now, I think we can get through this netroots debacle, but Bernie's supporters HAVE to listen to the members of the African American community and bite their tongues and figure out how to use the information we provide effectively. Life is a learning experience.

I have a few suggestions: in order to steal votes Bernie needs Obma voters. Please let people know that it is very counterproductive to trash Obama in any way really. We are so used to black leaders being trashed and hated and despised that we as a group will tune out any bad mouthing and silently hate the person speaking. It really doesn't matter if it is just about SEVERE disappointment with his policies or seeing him as too far to the right; it turns off potential black voters. Speak instead on how Bernie will defend the gains Obama made and expand upon them. It will be more effective.

Another thing is you all need to know that Black people LIKE the Clintons. Yes, they fucked up. But it seems that we are forgiving them and waiting to hear more about how Hillary will undo some of the policies and ensure that we work on the insititutional racism. Many are willing to give them a chance to fix things. It does not help Bernie AT ALL when folks talk crazy to black folks about liking the Clintons after all the damage they have done. It might help you to see this as a sign that black people can be willing to give multiple chances. This bad time with minority voters can be fixed.

I'd also suggest that his supporters might want to stop saying that economic justice and social justice are the same thing or that one brings the other. And maybe stop calling non Bernie supporters uninformed or implying that they are stupid or Hillary supporters. I get accused of supporting Hillary because I am saying these things to and about Bernie supporters. I understand that I have been a bit unkind by broadbrushing his supporters and I am sorry. I apologize for that and will try to do better. I just do not like my concern dismissed or my community or activists being disrespected or called right wing plants.

There is nothing wrong with being excited for a candidate. Or being an idealist. But it is not a winning strategy on it's own. Votes are needed to win. Bernie has the leftish progressive white liberals on his side and he has their support. He NEEDS more. Compromises will have to be made and tongues will have to be bitten to win the hearts and minds of the rest of the Democratic coalition.

Sorry about the super long post, but I just wanted to get that out there and see if anybody would take what I say seriously and help end this meme with the quickness. I do not like Bernie's supporters having the reputation of being mean, or intelligence snobs or hating black people. The only way to turn the tide is to change course. If you guys could collectively just be nice to black people and listen to us and support us in this fight for our lives and freedom; fight just as hard as you fight FOR Bernie, this problem would be a thing of the past.


Now, I know some will see this as an attack; please try your best not to do that, but to see it as a person who wants the same things you want trying to help you understand their perspective. Thank you.

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:09 AM

1. All I really see from Hillary supporters, boiled down, is Bernie cannot win so if I don't

 

start supporting Hillary I am just being an obstinate RW tool who wants the GOP to win.

That is the unspoken (or spoken) thought in anything said to Bernie supporters.
I do appreciate HRC supporters' helpfulness in bringing up things like Bernie's family - in a well-meaning way, of course, just to show us how ugly the GOP would be.

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Response to djean111 (Reply #1)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:15 AM

3. Mostly I see them defending Hillary's record and her liberal status.

 

That is what I see. They do not disrespect me or my community. They like Obama and celebrate his accomplishments. They support black lives matters fully and always have my back when people treat me foully or disrespectfully.
I understand that many have policy differences with Hillary and that is fine. Thinking Bernie can't win is fine. I hope he does. But the level of vitriol is why his support is not higher.

If we could tone down the level of hatred, we could make gains. We are in this together. We Are a team; a family.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #3)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:13 PM

80. I like your post, Bravenak. I wish we could have more rational discussions about

this election and hope your post helps to do that, at least among those who sometimes get caught up in the vitriol but probably should not.

You have made some great points. And you did it with thoughtfulness and no, I did not take it as an attack, I took it as I believe you intended. No one is perfect as you say, and I believe a good candidate will listen to good advice.

I like you, try not to get into bashing other candidates, but do focum on the issues. But sometimes do respond to nasty comments when they are best ignored.

Thanks for the post, rec'd and kick'd

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #80)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:18 PM

90. I'm glad you see that I want to help.

 

I hope we can get a better discourse going and end this divide. I do think Bernie has the best positions. We just have to make people receptive and comfortable with him. I think it can be done, I'm hopeful.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #90)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:29 PM

98. Yes, I do see that in your post. And I appreciate it. It is true that people will

be influenced by candidates who SAY the right things, and so yes, it is important for Bernie to say what he has long believed.

When I choose a candidate I look at their voting records because in elections people will say a lot but the only way to know if they are sincere is to see how consistent they have been, which is possible if they have been in elected office for any amount of time.

But I know not everyone takes the time to do that, so it's up to the candidate to be very clear on issues.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #98)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:41 PM

110. Yes. Everybody does it differently.

 

I immerse myself in the candidates position and history, but I also vote EMOTIONALLY. So many folks vote against their own interests in an emotional way. We have to connect the candidate of our choice to the voters that we need on an emotional level. People like to be cared about and we like to care about our politicians, bad or good that's who we are. Just humans seeking attention and acceotance and love. Even with our politicians we do it. We love to love our candidates.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #110)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 12:19 AM

378. ^THIS^

"So many folks vote against their own interests in an emotional way. We have to connect the candidate of our choice to the voters that we need on an emotional level."

It would be pretty to think logic always rules, but we live in the real world here.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #378)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 12:21 AM

380. Yep. Logic just does not sway folks as much as emotional appeals.

 

Republicans call them wedge issues or the liberal evil commie agenda. It scares republicans.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #380)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 12:25 AM

383. Hey, you're still here in this scrum!

Thank you!

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #383)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 12:38 AM

386. Hanging in there, barely.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #110)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 02:26 PM

454. +1. And, I would add ...

 

I immerse myself in the candidates position and history, but I also vote EMOTIONALLY.


You are not alone. The vast majority of voters support who they support because of an emotional attachment; despite, their claiming it was the result of dispassionate benefit-based analysis.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #454)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 10:21 PM

458. Yes!!!!!!!!!!

 

Look at the entire Republican party. I do not see any logic in their voting habits unless they are very wealthy or very bigoted. Not logical. All emotion.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #3)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:22 PM

93. I agree with what you are saying - I love President Obama - but how do we approach issues

like the passage of the TPP if he gets this deal settled before the election? Is opposition to a bill that will raise the price of medicine to the point that the people in the poorer nations will not be able to get them seen as a sign of hatred toward him? How do we handle a difference on issues with him?

And I will say that while economic justice cannot totally change social justice I have watched it turn our reservation into a respected business and employer of all people in the community that used to just shuck us off as worthless. And being shucked off began in kindergarten. We were seen as not worth bothering with.

A funny example: we used to be known by the junk cars parked in our yards because we could not afford to buy good ones and we could not afford to get rid of them. Sometimes we did not even get them home before we had to junk them. Today we are the ones driving the good cars around and people see us in a whole new way. When we go to the dealership today we are welcome - we are no longer seen as the easy mark to make a fool of. They welcome us because we are there to do business. And they want us to come back.

Housing could be another example. Many of our members are now living off reservation in the towns. We are an active part of the community and we know our neighbors and they know us. Our children play with their children. Before we could afford non-tribal housing we were seen as "them". Now we are part of the community.

Employment has also been change by our economic success. In the 60s I knew two Natives who had jobs off the reservation in white owned businesses. Today that has changed because we hire all races in our businesses and also because we are no longer seen as useless. They no longer say that they are not hiring the minute we walk into the door. We spend money in their businesses and they hire us in turn.

So economic justice does help to change things. Just not all things. It is going to take more than economic justice to change things like police violence and hatred.

So yes at this minute in time with more than 560 killings of unarmed black persons mostly for small offenses social justice is the most important issue of our time. For God's sake it cannot actually wait for a new president to take office - something needs to be done NOW because by the time another president takes office in 2017 that number will double. So yes, Black Lives Matter. This issue needs to be dealt with NOW.

I was glad to see the article regarding MO and Ferguson yesterday that did indicate that something is being done now. That needs to be done in a whole lot of other communities as well.

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Response to jwirr (Reply #93)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:53 PM

118. It will be very difficult to approach issues like the TPP.

 

At this point in time there has been so much criticism of Obama, much of it from the right, but alot of it comes from the left, and much of it unfair; i think that this is one of those biting your tongue issues. Watch how you frame your issues with the TPP and never get into personal attacks or name calling. Call out the over the top posters and folks you deal with and let them know they are HURTING your candidate.
We have a level of trust on Obama that we have NEVER experienced. You cannot argue with it, we will not be moved by lofty policy discussions or criticism of policy. We have seen too much hate directed towards him and we feel like he gets stabbed in the back by whilte liberals. Even my landlords says so and he could not possibly care less about politics. The perception is already there so all the criticism does is reinforce the idea that it's racially based attacks. They mostly come from white folks; left or right, most of the accusing fingers comes fromwhite folks. It is difficult to navagate, but do realize that we have been navagating through political mindfields since the beginning just to try to survive in America and we are used as pawns and we know it.

With all we have to deal with, we just want our allies to stop trying to tear him down and tarnish his legacy. It pushes us into Hillary's arms. I think that's not too much to ask.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #118)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 05:02 PM

213. Thank you for a very deep and thought provoking OP. If you haven't already I think you

should work with the Sanders campaign to direct them on how to reach and win over the emotions and trust of black people. And they should welcome that since they want to reach voters, are self aware and must realize how white liberals are long known to be distrusted as Malcom X knew, responsible as you say for much of the hate directed at Pres. Obama and ones viewed as back stabbers. HRC's campaign would also gain from your advice and insights in my view. How terrific to see someone so articulate, knowing and informed on issues, also perceptive and skilled at reading people as you say.

Like others, it's great how the Clintons' involvement in Workfare, prison incarceration and recent apologies for that don't impair your views of HRC. Being more comfortable around her supporters and also respected and valued is very important. We all know it's good to keep an open mind and select candidates wisely and rationally, but using one's intuition and insights is also essential. In reading all of these posts and your comments, again, it would benefit Sanders campaign and supporters if you provided official counseling and direction.

That you're not completely closed to the Clinton campaign is sensible, where the power and money are after all. Certainly not the case with the PUPs- the 'Progressive Unicorn Party' as an OP poster referred to Sanders campaign last night! And besides, idealists and liberals never have vast resources like corporate based politicians- just stating the obvious reality. And, if you do go with HRC, get the reparations, for real- long overdue, they have the $, and make them pay for it! You have a great one & see you around.

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Response to appalachiablue (Reply #213)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 07:48 PM

308. If I wasn't so busy in real life, with my daughters autism and other family issues, I would.

 

I would like nothing more than to help. Maybe somebody will email him this post and he can take a look at the responses? I think it may be helpful.
I cannot vote for HRC in the primary I don't believe. I try to be receptive, but it is difficult. But, as you know, Republicans are fucking insane. I have to vote Dem in the General for my own personal heath and safety.

Thanks for this post. I feel more positive. Maybe we can spread it around and see if it helps in anyway.

(Maybe you're right. I might need to spend my energy on a campaign. I'll think hard about how to do so effectively)

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Response to bravenak (Reply #3)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:30 PM

100. They support black lives matters fully

 

I assume you mean "Black Lives Matter".

Speaking of vitriol.... why would you even mention that "they" support BLM.... fully? Who here doesn't? What candidate doesn't? None that I know of. There was a big PR stunt staged to disrupt the Netroots Nation forum in AZ to make some candidates look bad, but it didn't prove anything. I find it pretty ridiculous to think that Sanders somehow does not care as much about black issues than Hillary. It's a RW meme that started in VT (or was it NH) because of a lack of black people in an audience of supporters.... Of course ignoring the racial makeup of those states. I am disappointed people fall for these things..... looking for examples, no matter how absurd, to support this RW planted idea.

And it's not fine thinking Bernie can't win. He CAN win. It is not "Hillary's turn" nor does she "deserve" the nomination or the presidency. These notions I find really undemocratic, unhelpful, and merely symptoms of a cult of personality.


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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #100)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:35 PM

105. You took the wrong lessons from my post.

 

You have to learn from people like me and move out of your comfort zone. Take what I said as a lesson you can take or leave.
But I am prescient. I am fucking awesome at predictions and tea leaf reading. Listen to me well and you will benefit; ignore me and continue with the anger and you will lose.

The fact that you are so dismissive and call it a stunt is why you are helping your candidate lose. I understand black people very well. You should heed me. You won't and that makes me sad because I want Bernie to win and folks like yourself are RUINING it. Kinda felt snobby. The way you speak to me lets me know you do not see me as an equal or value my input. I feel left out and discarded.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #105)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:45 PM

113. call it a stunt

 

It was a stunt. A PR stunt. The candidates were there to talk about immigration. Both Sanders and O'Malley addressed their concerns briefly then tried to get back to the subject of immigration.... but the event was ruined.

Have they done it to Hillary?

And now I will repeat what I was editing into my 1st post while you were replying:

I find it pretty ridiculous to think that Sanders somehow does not care as much about black issues than Hillary. It's a RW meme that started in VT (or was it NH) because of a lack of black people in an audience of supporters.... Of course ignoring the racial makeup of those states. I am disappointed people fall for these things..... looking for examples, no matter how absurd, to support this RW planted idea.

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #113)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:55 PM

120. Are you done trashing Black Activists?

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #120)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:01 PM

127. Are you done trashing Black Activists?

 

Not if they are gonna push RW memes.


Are you gonna accuse me of being a white supremacist? Because you seem to be veering into that vitriol you dislike so much.

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #127)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:19 PM

145. I guess you think you are helping Bernie by trashing black activists.

 

How does that help him win the black vote?

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Response to bravenak (Reply #145)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:25 PM

250. Disagreeing is not the same as trashing

 

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Response to Alfalfa (Reply #250)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:26 PM

251. I wonder WHO you are.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #251)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:26 PM

253. And?

 

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Response to Alfalfa (Reply #253)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:27 PM

254. I like pizza.nt

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #254)


Response to Post removed (Reply #255)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:31 PM

257. But you sure showed up for the experience.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #251)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 08:40 PM

329. And I wonder who YOU are.

 

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Response to senz (Reply #329)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 08:41 PM

331. Look me up on facebook. Friend me.:)

 

Last edited Tue Aug 4, 2015, 01:26 AM - Edit history (1)

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Response to bravenak (Reply #331)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 08:55 PM

338. OK, I did. If that's you, I like your baby.

 

Still not sure about you though...

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Response to senz (Reply #338)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:19 PM

342. Senz, please

 

You have been so kind to me, extend that to Bravenak.

She is really trying to get Bernie to connect and then elected. Really.

It isn't an attack.


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Response to artislife (Reply #342)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:37 PM

358. ^THIS^

Sigh.... They say that no good deed goes unpunished....

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Response to senz (Reply #338)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:15 PM

353. Maybe liking me is just not for you. I'll try my BEST to survive this deadly blow.nt

 

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Response to Alfalfa (Reply #250)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:34 PM

260. THANK YOU, IT'S not just me.

 

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Response to orpupilofnature57 (Reply #260)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:54 PM

283. I see you miss me.

 

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #113)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:06 PM

132. I don't recall anyone (certainly not bravenak) saying

"that Sanders somehow does not care as much about black issues than Hillary." I don't claim to have read every post, nor have a perfect memory, but I do not recall that.

The question was how he was (or wasn't) currently addressing those issues and how his actions (or lack of them) were *perceived*.

Perceptions matter if you're talking about getting votes. And as a Bernie supporter, I am very interested in getting votes.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #132)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:09 PM

135. that Sanders somehow does not care as much about black issues than Hillary.

 

re: Hilary Supporters

"They support black lives matters fully"


Fully, mind you.


And as I pointed out, it's a RW meme to believe that Sanders somehow does not support the black community as much as Hillary.


Let's not perpetuate it.

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #135)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:18 PM

142. Well, if that is translated to

"their current actions indicate that 'they support black lives matters fully,' according to my (the writer's) definition," then that's the perception kind of thing I'm talking about.

If someone perceives Bernie (and/or his supporters) as being behind the curve, I feel it would be good to listen to why they have that perception. Especially when expressed as well as bravenak expresses it.

I think part of the issue here is conflating Bernie himself with some current feelings about Bernie (and/or his supporters).

As far as I've ever observed, you can't cause people to change their feelings just by insisting that they do so.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #142)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:39 PM

345. Bernie's successful Burlington, VT waterfront Campaign Kickoff event occurred

Tues., May 26.

This bizarre compilation of George Washington, FF and slave owner, and 2 Chicago cops posed with a young black man as 'deer kill' was an offensive, racist lie and distortion to attack Bernie that appeared Wed., May 27, the very next day. The unfounded claims haven't let up since.
See post #143 above and DU OP link there, about some of his amazing 40 year career, work and record in this area.

NOT GOOD ENOUGH, BERNIE, Wed. May 27, 2015.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026737025

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Response to appalachiablue (Reply #345)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:32 PM

347. Not sure what your point is.

I don't think the author of the post you linked to so much as posted in this thread. And the tone (and perhaps - even probably - the purpose) is certainly much different from bravenak's.

I do not need a link to be fully aware of Bernie's career, nor, I think, does bravenak. That's not what's being discussed (by most, at least) anyway.

If you hadn't noticed, bravenak wants Bernie to win, as do I. I believe the issues she brings up need to be addressed in order to have a better chance of accomplishing that.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #347)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:56 PM

352. I was responding to 142 where you say if people perceive Bernie to be behind the curve, it's

worth listening to. What I and others are illustrating with facts is that he is not behind the curve regarding his actions and beliefs. Also that he and his behavior have been distorted and smeared from day one. I was not speaking of feelings or moods, which seem to be the essence of a lot of this conversation. Have a good night.

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Response to appalachiablue (Reply #352)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:34 PM

357. Oh, 142. That's me.

I still don't understand what your link has to do with this thread or good 'ol 142.

I'm a supporter, and I contend that some of his actions, or lack of, have in fact been behind the curve, at least for a period of time, and that some of his "supporters" are not helping.

I completely agree that he is far from behind the curve regarding his beliefs - he is light-years ahead.

And he is light-years ahead in listening, which is more than I can say for some of his "supporters."

Have you heard of Aristotle's three appeals? It would be pretty to think that logic rules, but emotional and personal often *overrule*. And telling people how they should feel generally backfires.

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #135)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 01:09 AM

398. Sanders has never said that he was the candidate of "hardwoking people, white people"

That said, I agree that his campaign does need to refocus on non-economic issues that strongly affect the lives of people of color. No white Harvard prof like Henry Louis Gates, Jr. will ever be treated like a possible burglar in his own home.

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Response to eridani (Reply #398)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 11:22 AM

435. need to refocus on non-economic issues

 

I disagree.

Since...as he a said..... economic inequality is at the root of racial problems.

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #435)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 12:21 PM

440. Racism is the poisoned fruit.

 

Racism is not about poverty. It is about American Racism. If you are right, why do Wealthy Black people STILL suffer from racism on a daily basis???? Just by turning on the TV you get racist images pumped to you daily. You will NEVER convince US that if we were just rich, racism would magically dissappear.
It never has worked before; we have no reason to trust your judgement. You who talk down to us so paternalistically! We understand racism BETTER than you, but you REFUSE to learn from us mere mortals of blackened skin about our own trials and tribulations. You know better than us what we suffer daily, how could you not??? We're just black people!!! How could we POSSIBLY know anything about American Racism?!?! Too stupid and illogical to EDUCATE ourselves as to what YOU think WE should think is most important and at the root of all of our troubles. As long as you can blame money, we can pretend that there 'nothing we can do, sorry black people, just gotta deal with getting talked to like idiots and treated like purile animals for another Few generations MORE until white people FEEL like letting go of their racism AND LETTING us be human like them.'
It's all our fault, such unruly negroes. After all, our skin color means we should suffer extra in silence if white liberals are having a speech. Otherwise We're stupid, and Koch brothers rightwing plants. Please talk to us like we're stupid and need white people to explain our REAL troubles to us.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #440)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 12:28 PM

443. You will NEVER convince US that if we were just rich

 

No one thinks that.

That's not "the economic problem."


What is "extra silence?" .... especially at a forum on immigration?

"Please talk to us lik we're stupid and need white people to explain our REAL troubles to us."

Oh I see it now. No white person could ever contribute to ending racism. I understand now.

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #443)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 12:31 PM

444. No white person can tell us HOW WE should fight our fight as to please THEM.

 

It's RACIST in and of itself. You are supoosed to LEARN from US about racism, we already know it first hand, MUCH BETTER THAN YOU!
ESPECIALLY ON THIS POLITICAL MESSAGE BOARD!!! WE ARE WELL EDUCATED!!! JUST AS WELL AS YOU IF NOT MORE. And we are CERTAINLY more educated that the average white college graduate on matters of race, racism and civil rights. It is our birthright.

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #113)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:57 PM

284. If you look at the response of the candidates to the issue since the protest...

 

...you'll find that the event was most certainly not ruined.

but the event was ruined.


How many protests have you participated in that have actually had an impact that could be recognizable so quickly?

I've been involved in a shitload of protests that have had no visible impact on anything in the short term whatsoever.

If you think the event was ruined, then you haven't been paying attention to the reactions of the candidates.

This action got their attention big time.

That's a pretty damn successful action in my eyes.

But then, you probably get upset at Code Pink as well.







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Response to stone space (Reply #284)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 07:17 PM

294. but the event was ruined.

 

Well they ran out of time and couldn't talk about the subject they and the audience came to discuss.

The even was not Black Lives Matter's disruption. Talk about not paying attention.


And the main fall out from the protest was to support a false Right Wing meme.

Way to go!

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #294)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 07:29 PM

303. Wow. Just. Wow.

There's a time to speak and a time to listen.

This was Martin and Bernie's opportunity to listen.

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Response to scarletwoman (Reply #303)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:37 PM

348. Bernie and O'Malley have listened for years now

there was nothing they had not heard and no sentiments being expressed they did not agree with, They came to talk about their agenda and Black Lives Matter created nothing of significance other than to appear disrespectful , and drown out speeches others wanted to hear. They shouted say the name but they themselves never say it. The name is the man and Bernie and O'Malley are more than willing to say the name that is the major cause of racism and black murders by police. That name is the billionaires, wall Street Bankers, and Corporation CEOs who pay their political hacks to divide poor white and black people in order to create the hate necessary for their candidates to win election. But Black Lives matter somehow believe all the focus should be on the victims. The focus should be on the cause and until we white and black 99 percenters see this, the racism reigns and the rich win.

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Response to daybranch (Reply #348)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:44 PM

350. Okay, you just go with that. nt

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Response to scarletwoman (Reply #303)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:47 PM

360. Exactly, SW

 

You are absolutely right.

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Response to scarletwoman (Reply #303)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 11:27 AM

436. This was Martin and Bernie's opportunity to listen.

 

Last edited Mon Aug 3, 2015, 12:29 PM - Edit history (1)

No.

It was a forum on immigration. That's what they and the audience were there for.


Why didn't Black Lives Matter get their own forum together and invite ALL the candidates.... and they could have discussed the important issue at length.

All the disruption did was reinforce that Right Wing meme that is clearly untrue.

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #436)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 12:28 PM

442. This is called 'white male privilege'.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #442)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 12:37 PM

445. This is called 'white male privilege'.

 

No it isn't.

It was an event about immigration. Why don't you get that? And those African Americans were let in.... assuming they were there to hear them talk about immigration.

How many times does it have to be pointed out that this disruption perpetuated right wing talking points?

*********


Pointing out these things has nothing to do with "white male privilege".

You simply don't seem to listen to anything anyone says. You've concretely made up your mind. As rigid as any Teabagger. There's no use discussing this with you.

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #445)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 12:40 PM

446. Yes it is.

 

Last edited Tue Aug 4, 2015, 01:21 AM - Edit history (1)

Do you tell Jewish people that poverty is the root of Antisemitism? You would NEVER!
Do you tell gays that poverty is the root of Homophobia? You would NEVER!
Do you tell women that sexism is caused by poverty? You would NEVER!!

That kinda stupid shit is saved for black people. White male privilege.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #105)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:24 PM

247. Why does anyone "have" to?

 

What happens to them if they don't?

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Response to Alfalfa (Reply #247)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:44 PM

274. It's good advice if you want Bernie to win the nomination.

Obviously, you don't "have to" take that advice. But I think it's shortsighted not to.

I'd like Bernie to win, don't you?

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Response to scarletwoman (Reply #274)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:49 PM

278. I only want people to win if they stand by what they believe

 

Selling out and pandering to groups just to get their vote defeats the whole point of winning. If there are certain people out there who won't support you because they don't get everything their way, you're probably better off without them.

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Response to Alfalfa (Reply #278)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 07:07 PM

289. Huh. So if Bernie campaigns more directly and effectively to AA voters, he's "selling out" and

"pandering"? Why would that be? Isn't social justice a major progressive value?

Honest to gawd, I don't get why so many Sanders supporters are acting like black activists are the enemy. It's so wrong-headed I can't even begin to grasp the thought process behind it. But it's one hell of way to build a coalition for your "political revolution".

Good luck winning an election without the black vote.

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Response to scarletwoman (Reply #289)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 07:10 PM

291. It's divisive. He should be campaigning to ALL Americans who share his values

 

And that's what he does, and he does it well. Race shouldn't even be an issue.

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Response to Alfalfa (Reply #291)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 07:21 PM

297. It's "divisive" to bring AA voters on board?

Sorry to break your privileged white illusion but race IS an issue, a BIG issue. People are being killed in this country because of their race.

But that doesn't effect you, so you think it's "divisive" to bring it up.

Okay, have fun playing at your all-white "political revolution". Don't expect any sympathy from me when we all end up with friggin' Hillary as the nominee.

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Response to scarletwoman (Reply #297)


Response to Alfalfa (Reply #291)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:46 PM

359. "Race shouldn't even be an issue."



What country, or world, for that matter, are we living in?

I don't consider it divisive at all to acknowledge that some groups have different/more issues than others. To do otherwise would be ostrich-like.

I can't reply directly to 299 because it is hidden. Reply to 299:

OMFG. Really?????????

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #359)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 12:14 AM

373. No kidding!

 

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Response to Aerows (Reply #373)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 12:22 AM

382. Thanks.

I desperately needed the comic relief.

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #100)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 12:13 PM

439. prime example of the "problem"

 

BS supporters are causing to their candidate...you are.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #439)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 12:22 PM

441. prime example of the "problem"

 

No

The "problem" is the perpetuation of the RW lie that Sanders does not care about black lives.

Why is Black Lives Matter championing a Right Wing falsehood? Why are they spending Conservative talking points?


Why don't they have a forum and invite Sanders and the rest of the candidates to discuss it thoroughly, instead of pulling stunts that help Republicans?

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #441)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 12:50 PM

447. Please your BS is a typical, tried and untrue meme

 

#BlackLivesMatters is making you understand what matters to POC. Your whining, distracting, diminishing of POC won't change that. BS supporters ARE helping other Democratic candidate(s) look a lot more appealing is all that is happening. Quit whining and get moving, you're holding up the train.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #3)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:15 PM

241. You have GOT to be kidding me.

HRC supporters are some of the nastiest on here. That is just so disingenuous.

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Response to cui bono (Reply #241)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:21 PM

244. Is this helping win over black voters?

 

No. It is not. You did not read my op. I shall not read your responses until you read the op. Have a blessed day.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #244)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:22 PM

246. I'm not speaking to all black voters. I am speaking in direct response to your post.

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Response to cui bono (Reply #246)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:25 PM

249. Still abrasive and unhelpful.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #249)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:38 PM

264. Well guess, what? That's how you've been lately.

I try to speak honestly with you and you come back with the lecture thing and now it's HRC supporters are all just so wonderful and Bernie supporters are just big ol' meanies. When I hear that I know the person saying it is full of shit because all you have to do is look in the HRC group to know there are some truly nasty and dishonest people in there. Perhaps you are just blinded by your emotions to see it, so I try to take that into consideration, but really, you have to know that is just so not true. And I can ask you the same type of question... Do you think that's going to turn around Bernie supporters?

If you don't want honest discussion then fine. Have a nice day.

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Response to cui bono (Reply #264)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:39 PM

266. You came here demanding changes to my sigline and refusing to read the op.

 

How nice of you.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #266)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:43 PM

270. I never demanded anything. I simply stated that I thought your sig is divisive and so I wouldn't

read the OP if it stood. It's not a demand really, it was an offer, which you refused. Good for you.

I can see from your sig line that you are not open minded at this point in time, and I have seen enough of your posts about the topic of your sig to know that you don't get or care why people have to keep repeating Sanders record and are taking it personally when it isn't, unless you are one of the ones attempting the Du swiftboating of him. If you aren't then you should just ignore it, it isn't directed at you.

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Response to cui bono (Reply #270)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:44 PM

272. Fine.

 

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Response to cui bono (Reply #241)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 10:16 AM

433. Interesting, one of the most ardent Sanders supporters had very nice and pleasant...

.....things to say about the OP and rec'd it, and you have this.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #3)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 05:03 AM

418. I get along pretty well with the HRC people. I am a member of the group

Last edited Mon Aug 3, 2015, 06:38 AM - Edit history (1)

But, I do see a few of the HRC people posting how Sanders will never win
I know of at least one who is totally hung up on him not being a real Democrat because he's been an independent, so that person doesn't think we should support him
I have had this discussion with African-American friends of mine, and you are right, 'Black people LIKE the Clintons' - at least the one's I know from Chicago and Lake County in Indiana
I've pressed a few of them to explain why and it comes down to a variety of reasons; which is good, because I'd hate to think it was one reason only. I have reminded them of policy decisions of Bill, the Jesse Jackson comment about Obama and HRC's votes and positions on incarceration, her vote on changing bankruptcy laws, etc
Most of my friends tell me, 'She's changed.'

They also believe she listens and that she's been unfairly treated over the past 2 decades. While those that feel she's been mistreated don't come out and say it, I think they feel an understanding of what it's like to constantly be under assault by the media, the politico-sphere, etc.

I see no point in going into a knock down drag-out with them because it's not worth pissing them off, or me for that matter.
There isn't enough of a difference between HRC and Sanders to take it to a steel cage match -- if it were Sanders and Webb we were talking about, I'd be more forceful. If it were Sanders and Jeb, I'd throw up my hands and bang my head against the wall. But, it's not.

I am not convinced she's changed that much. I don't think, like many people here do, that everything she says, every evolution she's made is calculated for the most votes. Plus, and this is one of the arguments one of my friends gave me, when she lost in 2008 she didn't pout and whine like the PUMA group did. She accepted the results, spoke on Obama's behalf and served in his cabinet.

I realize my group of African-American friends in the Chicago-Lake County, IN area do not constitute a mega-gigantic group (40 families), but it's a few things I hear from them

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Response to rpannier (Reply #418)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 05:38 AM

419. I know one poster who does that.

 

It's just the one, but they keep harping on the fact that Bernie is not a Dem. i try to ignore people who just keep repeating themselves. It drives me crazy.

Yes. You are right. Most believe she has changed, he has changed, and they forgive the Clintons. I cannot argue with that. I rather like Bill and love when he gives speeches.

And yes, we do feel like the Clintons have been targeted, all the little scandals that are blown up out of proportion is the main reason. We feel like WE are targets and so are they. Like comrades on a battlefield, we have to support and defend each other.

You will rarely see me atrack or disparage Hillary. I have said what I do not like about them, and I refuse to poison the conversation by harping on every mistake. It's not productive.

Her accepting the loss and being Secretary of State for Obama is a big win for her. When everyone else was slamming Obama the Clintons were not.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #419)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 06:37 AM

421. A few points after reading some of the comments you received

1. People do need to move out of their comfort zone and talk with people with whom they disagree a little more.
2. I know it's difficult for some people to accept, but they just won't accept that HRC (and Bill) are popular in minority communities and not just African-American communities. I was watching The David Pakman show and he read a poll that showed something like 60% of all Democratic Hispanics didn't believe anyone should run against her in the primaries. As I recall the poll had similar numbers among African-Americans
*The poll was from late May or early June.
2. Maybe talking with members in minority communities might give people more insight into why they are supporting HRC, instead of coming here and saying 'When they learn more about Bernie they'll be voting for him.' or 'It's not true. His message has broad support.' etc
I am voting Bernie. But, should he lose to HRC, I have visions of his supporters here at DU looking like the rMoney people after Obama got re-elected. They looked so baffled. And it was because of the cellophane wrap they were encased in.
3. One argument that I haven't been able to counter, no matter how hard I try is, when my friends say they are voting for her (or O' Malley) because they think they are better prepared to sit in the White House and make those decisions and forge those coalitions to make stuff happen.
That's hard to counter because both Clinton and O' Malley have more experience with the executive branch.
*If you have a counter to their argument, I'd love to hear it.*
4. I was unfair to the HRC people (and will edit my above post), it's really a few that say he can't win, not a lot.

I do want to say, I appreciate your post. It brings up things people should be thinking about. It is true that economics and civil rights do not go hand in hand, like some would believe.
My father pointed out that the US experienced huge economic growth in the 40's and 50's. But that didn't equate to gains in equality for minorities, women and single parent households. Many areas of the country kept minorities from experiencing the joys of the boom period

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Response to rpannier (Reply #421)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 08:04 AM

427. Yes.

 

Thank you for really thinking it over. I think this had been a much more positive experience than I had expected.
I know I have been bringing this stuff up a lot over the last few weeks, but it is something that really bothers and frustrates me. I keep trying to figure out how to explain what I see, but it's like writing a poem, you know? Sometimes it takes a while to pull the snippets of emotions and feelings together in a rational wah in order get the response you want. The effect you desire.

At first I was so mad after netroots. I could not figure out why people were acting so vicious and, well, racist. I realized that many did NOT know what they looked like. How could they? There were no black people here to tell them besides me, and I knew it would cause me to be hated. But I just had to.

I had hoped they would listen and end it immediately. I felt bad that nobody believed me and that people thought I was just trolling or 'race nagging'. People said such mean things. But we can move forward if we have humility and compassion for others.

I think speaking with black folks outside of DU would be brilliant. Even just reading black publications (not the Black Agenda Report, please no, just trust me) and going through the comments and reading them would help.

The experience thing is a big . I have no idea what to say to people who question his experience. Maybe remind them that he will have skilled advisors?

And yes, the gains missed us. They always do. That is why we don't trust in the economic justice message. We know we will NEVER get our fair share. How can we will so many of us in prison or dead?

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Response to djean111 (Reply #1)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:16 AM

4. THAT is your takeaway?

Holy crap, people.

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Response to djean111 (Reply #1)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:23 AM

8. Did we just read the same OP?

I am confused.

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Response to Raine1967 (Reply #8)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:31 AM

12. Yes, we read the same OP.

 

I am basically being told how to ACT if I want Bernie to get AA votes.
Because without the AA votes, Hillary will win.
My point of view - nothing any elected person or candidate can do will erase racism. Inequality can be addressed, but I do not think racism can be legislated away.
And - what do I do when I feel that, say, the TPP reeks? Is that considered "bashing Obama"?

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Response to djean111 (Reply #12)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:15 AM

37. No one is actually being asked to erase racism.

We have legislation from the past, though, to show how to REDUCE the racism in our systems, such as the Voting Rights Act, or the Civil Rights Act. So we can fight for a new act to address the structural racism in our justice system in ways similar to how we did voting rights suppression. Legislation that prohibits policing activities that produce disparate impact on minority communities, just like we had legislation about electoral changes that result in disparate impact in minority voting.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #37)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:19 AM

40. Yes, please. That's something to work towards.nt

 

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #37)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:43 PM

349. Thought provoking post

Thank you for that.

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Response to djean111 (Reply #12)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:52 AM

66. I agree with your points! The issues are different

 

but the spirits are the same. There was a movement building and a fair number of the people of the country started to think just maybe they could pull off an upset. An upset that would throw off the yoke of subservience and exploitation.Those who didn't agree with that group of visionaries had several reasons not to - but the overarching concern was letting go of what they felt they had a handle on vs. that that was a flight of seeming fancy. As well, there was concern for backlash if the upstarts failed with their dream.

Well..... there's been so much written about that crazy quest and the fanatical faith of those who saw to it that the dreamer's dreams became reality. And at that, what initially emerged from that challenge and victory was imperfect and in need of grooming (grooming that's still going on as a matter of fact). We're a nation with a track record of doing the seemingly impossible - improbable even. So now I'm not supposed to upset the applecart - or at least vocalize my preference for doing so???

Every elections since Carter lost, we've been wooed by magicians and their sleight-of-handiwork that's been a major component of their courtship. As a result, we've endured more infidelity than an aging Hollywood has-been. If only we HAD "looked at the men behind the curtain!)
I'm too old and gnarly to want to spend what time I have left - clamoring for someone else's ideals. I know what I want (for my country) and that's the star I'm gonna steer by - unless and until it flickers out.

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Response to djean111 (Reply #12)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:34 PM

154. "I am basically being told how to ACT"

Yes, that's one of my takeaways too (well, I think I'd go for "suggested" rather than "told", and I am grateful for the advice!

(No sarcasm - I seriously am grateful for the advice.)

However, my recollection of the post is that it's mainly an explanation of how people *feel* - also useful information for which I am grateful.

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Response to djean111 (Reply #1)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:24 AM

9. Try not to conflate 'Hillary supporters' and AA folks.

As bravenak said, Hillary is the 'default', the 'devil you know', and gets lukewarm support. That means there still exists a chance to win those AA votes away, IF Bernie gets his message out in the right way, and IF his supporters don't piss black people off enough with ham-handed attempts to 'message' for him that come off as patronizing or condescending.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #9)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:12 AM

33. Lukewarm support?

 

Is that what you call it? If so...Sanders is in a very deep hole indeed!

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #33)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:32 PM

103. Hillary Wins The Only Standing Ovation From An Obama Crowd

Long after she was done, a crush of black people four deep were still trying to get a glimpse of Hillary Clinton.

Some people posed for pictures in front of the crowd after Clinton’s speech to the National Urban League’s convention; others snaked their arms around well-wishers to snap pictures of the candidate, smiling and grabbing hands.


Clinton was undoubtedly the candidate folks at the annual convention had wanted to see most. She got the loudest welcoming applause, the most people clamoring for a brief audience with her, and the most widespread approval by members of the Urban League, who gave her speech the morning’s only standing ovation.


http://www.buzzfeed.com/darrensands/hillary-clinton-at-national-urban-league#.wxPLj0ber

And yes, Sanders was there

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Response to lunamagica (Reply #103)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:34 PM

104. EXACTLY !!!

 

Lukewarm my big toe!

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #104)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:39 PM

108. I Know! Just a bit more from the article:

“One of the things that really impressed me today about her presentation was her ability to really empathize with the plight of African Americans and to not mince the words and try to make it politically correct,” said Kevin E. Hooks, president and CEO of the Las Vegas Urban League. Hooks, a Clinton supporter since the early days, said her emotive comments about the injustice of racial profiling mark some of the most effective remarks he’s ever heard her make.



I really think she’s coming into her own,” Hooks said. “She’s starting to hone her message and really understand how to communicate it to us in a way [black people] can receive it well. We’re at the point now where we can tell really who she is and that this is truly what she believes. It almost felt like she was really good at freestyling.”


Clinton didn’t equivocate to the audience here as to whether she was on Obama’s side or not. And she ripped Republicans — namely Jeb Bush on Friday — for saying they want to repeal Obamacare, snipping at the name of Bush’s political action committee, to some of her most enthusiastic applause.



http://www.buzzfeed.com/darrensands/hillary-clinton-at-national-urban-league#.wxPLj0ber

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Response to djean111 (Reply #1)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:32 AM

13. I think your taking the OP the wrong way. The OPs view, rightly or wrongly is that Hillary appears

more responsive to African Americans than Bernie.

The OP is suggesting that Bernie address more issues affecting African American issues into his campaign.

Personally I think the OP is asking if Bernie could address African American issues more in his campaign. You can agree with that or disagree with that premise, but I think that is where the OP would like to have a dialog. It seems to me that the OP is actually looking for a reason to support Bernie, but wants him to state what he will do for African Americans.

Of course that should apply to all the candidates, but to the OP, Bernie has not been specific or discussing it enough.

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Response to still_one (Reply #13)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:34 AM

14. And that is up to Bernie, not his supporters.

 

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Response to djean111 (Reply #14)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:02 AM

28. It is both. Bernie doesn't run his campaign in a vacuum. In the Netroots/BLM town hall, if you

caught the whole video, Bernie did try to address the issues BLM was bring up.

So while it is up to his campaign, Bernie is receptive to his supporters input.

If I was going to defend Bernie on this issue, I would point out that in the town hall/BLM his approach was through economics and education. His proposals of Free college, increasing the minimum wage, are some of the specifics. There are other issues that must be addressed also, such as law enforcement abuses of African Americans, etc.

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Response to still_one (Reply #28)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:37 PM

107. He must be in a bubble then....otherwise

 

He would be aware that HRC is kicking his butt on issues important to the AA community.

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Response to still_one (Reply #28)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:19 PM

143. SBS has addressed law enforcement abuses against AAs through calls for better 'community policing',

holding officers who commit illegal acts accountable, dealing with police depts. that look like the military and strengthening black communities through education and jobs which help combat poverty, despair and more inequality. Invest in education and jobs, not jails and prisons he says.

Since *1991, when he was new to the Congress, Sanders went on record in the House of Reps. speaking out against racist, tough on crime legislation aimed at increased incarceration of minorities and the poor, which sadly came to pass with the 1994 Violent Crime Law that has ruined the lives of many and their families and communities that Bill Clinton has apologized for recently.

3. In 1994 Bill Clinton Passed the Violent Crime Control Law and is Now Apologizing to the NAACP.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1017&pid=281380

There have to be, and will be enhanced policies to eliminate illegal law enforcement practices, brutality and violence targeting blacks and PoC and the US incarceration rate of the most people in prison on earth, mainly blacks and Latinos.

Why these issues are not being addressed nationally or on the state level through AGs and governors is very disturbing, same with VOTER SUPPRESSION which impacts AAs and also youth, senior voters, the poor and others. Recently Pres. Obama visited a federal prison and called out a system that will incarcerate 1 of 4 black men born now if not changed, an effort which Sanders praised in the below speech in Iowa, July 17.
-------
- Sanders on BLM, Iowa Democratic Hall of Fame Dinner, July 17, 2 days before Net Roots Nation Conf.




- SBS: I Want an America Where Blacks are Not Harassed, Shot and Killed by Police, June 17, pre NRN
http://www.democraticunderground.com/128029698


- Sanders speaking on BLM, June 6 early in his campaign in Keene, NH, community Ctr., 750 attendees.

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Response to still_one (Reply #28)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:48 PM

361. He has been talking about this

There are other issues that must be addressed also, such as law enforcement abuses of African Americans, etc.


He has addressed the racism in policing and the militarism in policing and the prison problem of too many minorities in prison and said this needs to change.

I know everyone can't listen to every one of his speeches, but they have been posted here.

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Response to still_one (Reply #13)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:53 AM

25. That's correct

 

Mrs. Clinton APPEARS to be more responsive to African Americans than Bernie.
When in fact, who marched for civil rights in the 60s and got arrested for it?
Who said that we have to end the racism here in the US, and formally apologize for the practice of slavery?
What we need is to get out these, and other messages, as well as other messages not just to the African American community, but to EVERYONE.

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Response to RoccoR5955 (Reply #25)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:12 AM

34. Stop spoiling everything with the truth.

 

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Response to RoccoR5955 (Reply #25)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:17 PM

87. All of that and how Bernie has been addressing the needs of black Americans through

calls for better 'community policing', holding officers who commit illegal acts accountable, and measures to diminish insecurity, poverty and discrimination in black communities by strengthening education and jobs, particularly among black youth age 17-20 where unemployment is 51%, an abomination.

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Response to appalachiablue (Reply #87)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:20 PM

183. This is true, appalachiablue. Bernie actually wants to DO something about it. nt

 

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Response to RoccoR5955 (Reply #25)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:01 PM

176. ^^^^^^^ THIS THIS THIS ^^^^^^^

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you RoccoR5955.

There is *no candidate* in this race, other than Bernie, who has been ARRESTED for supporting African American rights.

There is *no candidate,* other than Bernie, who has called for the United States to APOLOGIZE for slavery.

You cannot be racist, even a little bit racist, and do these things. I cannot even imagine Bernie Sanders being or feeling racist toward African Americans.

Nor can I imagine Bernie supporters being or feeling racist toward AAs. If anyone on Twitter or elsewhere pretends to be a Bernie supporter while making racist Tweets, then that person is working for someone other than Bernie.

This is the truth. It stands.

I think the OP's concern is misplaced.



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Response to senz (Reply #176)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:11 PM

178. My concern is right on. You dismissing it is the problem.nt

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #178)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:52 PM

196. I think Bernie's doing a good job of putting the truth out there. Rumors can't stop him.

 

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Response to senz (Reply #196)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 07:36 PM

304. I think you can help him by heeding my advice.

 

I'd like for that to happen.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #304)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 08:36 PM

327. Bravenak, I have NEVER put down Barack Obama. I defend him online and in person. ALWAYS.

 

I put in long hours on his reelection campaign in 2011-12. I really like Barack Obama. And Michelle. And Malia. And Sasha. I think he's a very GOOD man in a thankless job, all the more thankless for the disgusting racism shown by his Republican enemies.

Your response to my comment sounded, to my ears, so cloyingly phony and dishonest that it brought on a wave of nausea. I'm sorry, but I'm finding it impossible to trust you. Something just doesn't add up. If you're sincere and we're somehow misreading each other, then maybe someday I'll see you in a better light. But for now, I think we'd best stay away from one another. Okay?

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Response to senz (Reply #327)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 08:40 PM

328. Have a wonderful day.

 

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Response to senz (Reply #176)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:20 PM

182. I know what Bernie's record is.

Nevertheless, I think the OP makes helpful points if we want Bernie to actually win.

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Response to still_one (Reply #13)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:35 PM

155. "We know the Clintons...they made terrible decisions...those facts..." < "responsiveness". eek!

 


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Response to djean111 (Reply #1)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 09:15 PM

341. The GOP invented ' Citizens United ' so they could slander Hillary, Ugly?

 

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:14 AM

2. I am so glad you made this an OP.

I appreciate the words you put down here at DU more than you know.

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Response to Raine1967 (Reply #2)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:16 AM

5. I am too. I did it because you liked it so much.

 

I was hoping others would feel the same.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #5)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:44 AM

20. I responded to you in the other thread, Don;t know if I should post it here or not.

Thank you so much.

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:20 AM

6. Excellent post, bravenak

Thank you for pulling it out of that thread, I may have missed it otherwise.

Well said...

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #6)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:21 AM

7. Thank you.

 

I hope this helps people understand what some of the problems are.

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:29 AM

10. I did not know this:

"I do not hate Bernie or his supporters. I actually prefer Bernie and do not like Hillary."

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Response to Control-Z (Reply #10)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:34 AM

15. I know it's weird.

 

I just do not think it's appropriate for me to spend time letting it be known constantly. I respect her and her accomplishments. If she is the nominee, I will show up and vote happily. I just do not have very warm feelings towards her. That is slowly changing because of what I see as sexism and constant bashing. I do not like that and it makes me want to defend my fellow Democrat.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #15)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:14 AM

36. She is afterall...as one poster put it the default..

 

That being an ACTUAL Democrat...not all running are and therefore are not "default".

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #36)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:17 AM

39. She is.

 

I always vote straight ticket Demkcrat if at all possible. I do not see that changing.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #39)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:51 PM

117. Then how do you reconcile supporting

 

The one candidate in the Primary who proudly proclaimed himself not one even after announcing. I like Bernie....but running in our Primary without becoming one is the one major thing I take issue with him on....so he wants to run in OUR Primary because HE THINKS he can do better (with us)??? Its not JUST about can he win.....its all about how he thinks HE can persuade Congress and Senate better than WE can? I find that to be a weasly stance and have lost lots of respect for him as a result...If HE soooooo needs US and OUR support (and yes our money no doubt about that) Than the least he could do is proudly become one of us....as it is he may not be eligible in at least 2 States as a result. Thats bloody risky right there alone...and THAT is why he would be the absolute last candidate I would support running on this ticket...its like we are being asked to be a mistress not a wife....

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #117)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:56 PM

122. I just do not like her very much.

 

I like him better, but I would vite for her and that's all that really matters, right Vanilla?

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Response to bravenak (Reply #122)


Response to Post removed (Reply #133)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:14 PM

138. Vanilla. I'm much better at reading people than you are, Sweet.

 

You are just so very wrong wrong wrong. I do not like how she talks, I do not think she goes deeply enough into issues, just glosses over things, she has been improving, but after her last campaign, I DO NOT LIKE HER. After Geraldine Ferarro went on her race baiting bullshit, I had hoped Hillary would apologize. She did not. Fuck that. We deserved an apology and we deserved better than that from a fellow LIBERAL. Now you know. I have more things but fuck trashing a fellow democrat on my thread.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #138)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:17 PM

141. No you are not....how dare you say such a

 

Ridiculous thing.....You who voted straight Dem ticket just like I always have.....saying that is EXACTLY the same kind of arrogance and indifference to the facts that Sanders is showing.

You seem to think YOU know better than I and the vast majority of Democrats with that one statement. What on earth makes you think your instincts are superior to the vast majority of us Democrats...as apparently you are a "better judge of character" than all of THEM too!

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #141)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:21 PM

146. You read me wrong several time since I joined.

 

I know how to talk to people and get a more positive response than you. Because I read people better.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #146)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:24 PM

148. Noooo I did not read you wrong

 

You think you only insulted me....but instead you insulted me and every other loyal Democrat...THAT is both you and his biggest flaws...you THINK you are superior Democrats....but the truth of the matter is....neither of you can win without us ...

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #148)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:30 PM

150. I have no idea why you always go on the attack.

 

It makes me uncomfortable.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #150)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:32 PM

152. But you claiming to be a better judge than I

 

Was no attack huh?

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #152)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:36 PM

157. I said I'm better at reading people.

 

That is obvious from how combative you always are with posters. If you see it as an attack, that's fine, Vanilla.
When I say Bernie's supporters are being rude to me, all they have to do is point out posts like yours to prove your side is just as bad. You are not helping Hillary by jumping down my throat.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #157)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:38 PM

265. Aloha brave, 1st of all, thank you for your OP..I, of course, really like this part.. you know I do!

"I have a few suggestions: in order to steal votes Bernie needs Obma voters. Please let people know that it is very counterproductive to trash Obama in any way really. We are so used to black leaders being trashed and hated and despised that we as a group will tune out any bad mouthing and silently hate the person speaking. It really doesn't matter if it is just about SEVERE disappointment with his policies or seeing him as too far to the right; it turns off potential black voters. Speak instead on how Bernie will defend the gains Obama made and expand upon them. It will be more effective.

And, I think Bernie Sanders could learn from that, too.

Secondly, I really hate to see the way the poster just treated you because you wanted to vote for Bernie even though he's not a Democrat.

It's ridiculous as you know. I hate that combative style too.. it does no good, whatsoever. Oh yeah it gets them a hide if that's what they're going for.

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Response to Cha (Reply #265)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:41 PM

269. Yeah. I always try to get along with her regardless. She is VERY passionate. Very.

 



I was hoping that people would notice that advice about Obama. Respect for him really is a do or die issue. I can only to to inform and give advice. I cannot make anyone take it.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #269)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:49 PM

279. You're good.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #269)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 12:21 AM

379. Bravenak, please read my post just below Cha's after this one of yours

I'm sorry, it was meant for you, not Cha.

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Response to Cha (Reply #265)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 12:15 AM

374. I was really glad to read this bolded part of Bravenak's OP too

This is actually directed to Bravenak, not Cha. Sorry, I messed up.

I was not aware of the affect so many Obama haters have had on the AA voting block, but now that I think about it, it makes sense. I love Obama and it appalls me to hear people who really can't stop ragging on him and refuse to acknowledge what an amazing man he is and how much he has accomplished in his time in office, despite the republican'ts.

I agree that Bernie supporters should stop trying to diss Obama if they want to win AA votes.

I am surprised at the feeling though, that you think Bernie is an Obama hater. I hope I'm reading that wrong. I don't think he hates him at all. He just disagrees with some of his policies, like TPP, and wars and economic issues. I think he knows Obama has done some very good things (I think I remember him praising Obama for a few of them, like Obamacare and the Iran nuke deal.

His policies are so different than many of Obamas, I'm not sure he can do much to sway your opinion, if you really see him that way.

I have another comment/question about something you said in your OP.

You said:
You are on my side in my fight for justice, and I am on your side in your fight for economic fairness.


You are asking for us to listen to you (and I agree, we need to) but this sounds tone deaf to me because you are not listening to us. We do fight for your social justice, and I agree it is a black issue, not a white one, but we all must fight for economic fairness...this is about all of us, not just whites. It's your issue too. But you seem to want to dismiss it as not important because social justice is all that really matters to you.

Maybe I can understand that, but I really wish you could see that economic fairness is good for all races, not just whites. It will not fix the social injustices that need to be dealt with, but it is a very necessary battle for all of us.

I hope you will take this in the way I meant it...in a reaching out and saying "I hear you...do you hear me?" Thank you for your OP. I hope it opens some hearts and minds.

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Response to passiveporcupine (Reply #374)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 12:37 AM

385. Ok. Think about it this way...

 

Which voting block ALWAYS votes reliably dem, for candidates you support whether they like them or not? Black voters do. We always vote your way.

I do not think Bernie hates Obama. I think many of his supporters do. They are not following Bernie's lead and example of positive campaigning. He does not trash Democrats. He does not trash Hillary. He does not trash Obama. He KNOWS that it will hurt him with black voters.

Black folks got left behind by white liberals, they disinvested in our communities, allowed society to bring us to the point where 1/3 of us go to jail or prison in our lifetimes. Our children are treated unfairly at school, harassed, overly disciplined, our children are treated like shit from birth on. We want the same quality of life as you, and that means social justice is PRIMARY. Money doesn't help you in life if your children are murdered before they are grown, or jailed on a fake charge by dirty cops, or your husband is in jail leaving you all alone and poor,and that happens often. We are left to deal with this systemic racism and systematic abuse and told that we are wrong for demanding that our VERY LIVES come first. Before money, before ANYTHING else. You don't have these worries. Why the hell should WE just because OF our black skin? Why won't you just help us and ask nothing in return but that we be careful and have good lives? That is all we are asking. Whoever offers us that wins. And nobody wins without us. Think about it.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #385)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 01:02 AM

394. I agree with you that living comes first

Money doesn't help you in life if your children are murdered before they are grown, or jailed on a fake charge by dirty cops, or your husband is in jail leaving you all alone and poor,and that happens often.


And I understand and accept that. I'm with you on that. But without changing the game of economic inequality and bringing decent paying jobs back home, many blacks that do make it out alive may still never have a quality of life. Both issues are important.

The social justice issue can be fought at the same time as the economic one, and Bernie will fight for both. Please believe me when I say I truly believe his honesty and integrity on this. I wish I could believe Hillary's campaign speeches, but I understand that campaign talk is just a lot of pandering and she may not live up to her promises.

I hope for your sake (for all AA's and other minorities) that if she wins, she lives up to them. Maybe the pressure driving her to the left will keep her open to that.

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Response to passiveporcupine (Reply #394)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 01:06 AM

396. They can be fought at the same time.

 

But we gave to trust that our issue will not be cast off to the side like always. So, it is up to Bernie and his campaign and supporters to makes sure they are compassionate and they listen and ask the communities what THEY think are good solutions and add to that. Bernie is GOING to wirk on your issues. You trust him to do that regardless. Time to add things to the agenda in order to build a coalition. Everyone needs to feel that their needs are being met. If you want black people to take up YOUR cause, that up theirs first. Then they can trust you.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #396)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 01:11 AM

399. Believe me, I'm 100% behind your cause.

Again though...economic inequality is "our" cause, not mine. I am not trying to pick on you. I get what you are saying that the AA community does not see it that way, and I understand why...because life comes first.

I wish there was more I could do to get your message out to change the way other DUers here talk about Obama and how nasty everyone is to each other. I can only take care of what I do and say.

I would like to add that I am so glad that social networking and technology is finally truly exposing the horrors of the system that blacks live with every day. I mean I always knew it but until it hits you in the face (like it does for your race every day) it's just hard to comprehend. I think a lot of people (lots of us white people) are ready to march and fight with you about BLM and other minorities.

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Response to passiveporcupine (Reply #399)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 01:15 AM

401. I think there is a small chance that the conversation can change.

 

Maybe Bernie is unaware of it? Maybe his volunteers can read this thread at the next meetings are find a way to use it to help him. Just send it around and see if it can change a few minds at a time. Or one mind at a time. Could end up being a butterfly effect and half the folks will appreciate what I say and it will spread.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #401)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 01:20 AM

405. I don't do social networking,so I have no place to spread it

But you've gotten a lot of raves on this OP, so hopefully others will do this.

I definitely kicked and rec'd it to help keep this conversation going.

Hey, good luck going back to school...I know you enjoy it. I loved it too.

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Response to passiveporcupine (Reply #405)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 02:35 AM

411. Thank you.

 

I hope you guys discuss this op in your volunteer groups for Bernie's campaign.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #411)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 02:39 AM

413. I Hope so too.

I'm afraid I cannot attend events like that, but if I can think of a way to share this with local Bernie groups, I will try.

You are very eloquent. I wish you great success in your life. You deserve it. You have courage, wisdom, and grace under fire.

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Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #117)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:57 PM

364. He's running as in a dem primary because he does not want Dem's to lose

by his dividing the party vote. He has said this and he means it.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #39)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:49 PM

195. You don't see Hillary's default status changing?

 

Well you can hang on to that hope. But did you know that Joe Biden is thinking of entering the race? That right there might threaten your candidate's "default" status. Don't worry, though. Maybe some people might try to suggest that he, too, is racist. It's always worth a try when one is truly desperate.

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Response to senz (Reply #195)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:13 PM

202. Bravenak's candidate is NOT Hillary.

From her OP:
I actually prefer Bernie and do not like Hillary.


She has simply been trying to explain why Hillary is currently being supported by Black people as a group, and what might be done to move that support to Bernie.

Oh, and Hillary is not my candidate, either.

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Response to senz (Reply #195)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 05:44 PM

224. No.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #224)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:15 PM

240. Very, very firm on Hillary as the "default" primary candidate?

 

Can't even entertain the possibility that her campaign is losing steam, her poll numbers dropping, Democrats who find Bernie too new and unusual are now looking fondly on Biden who is looking fondly on running?

That sounds like a powerful attachment, bravenak.

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Response to senz (Reply #240)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 01:23 AM

472. Missed this.

 

Funny how you think I'M attached to Hillary. I feel like she is being forced on me by folks like you. Don't even like her, but am constantly accused of it. Fine, I will vote for her in the primary if it makes you happy. Done!! Happy now?

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Response to bravenak (Reply #15)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 05:09 PM

214. it's also weird so many people missed the point that you want to take AA votes FROM Hillary

Telling people it behooves Democrats not to speak disrespectfully of Obama if they are trying to attract AAs to their candidate isn't telling them to shut up! He will be the sitting president throughout the election year and the Rs will be attacking him nonstop and saying wildly outrageous things. Any Dem criticism would need to be constructive in tone and respectful of his position.

I'm wondering what the Biden talk of late means in terms of where Obama stands re a desired successor. Could his hand be in this? Would Biden be considering this without Obama's blessing? Does Biden have credibility in the AA community from being Obama's VP if he should jump in, that would be greater than the current candidates?

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Response to carolinayellowdog (Reply #214)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 03:30 AM

416. I wish they would all see it your way.

 

Just pass my op around among your fellow supporters and maybe it will help change one mi d at a time. Best we can do.

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:31 AM

11. I don't see it as an attack.

I think it makes a great OP, and I hope that we're all listening.

I'm glad you made it an OP; at # 354, I probably never would have seen it. My old 'puter keeps crashing, and can't seem to load all of really long threads.

I strongly agree that, not just Bernie supporters or white liberals, but ALL people of conscience should be ACTIVELY supporting you in the fight for racial justice. When it comes to the primaries, I've noted that the BLM action at NN was successful. All the candidates will now say "Black Lives Matter" and name names.

That, I know, is only a first step. Candidates need to follow up on that with specific policies to address specific racial justice issues. I'm hearing them talk about it. I'm guessing that the black community would like more, and more specific, plans of action.

Can you tell us what you think about what the candidates have offered up so far?

As far as the issue of Sanders supporters being "mean," etc., I have to say that I don't honestly "get" it.

One of the reasons, I'm sure, is that I don't see very many threads about HRC. I put "HRC," "Hillary," and "Clinton" in as terms to hide threads. I know what she's doing on the campaign trail. I can read about her in the news if I want to. She's not ever going to earn my support, not without becoming someone she's not. That doesn't mean that I "hate" her. I simply don't support her political self. I don't need to argue about her.

So whatever is happening in most Clinton threads, I'm not seeing it. I am seeing, though, the same kind of behavior we're accused of happening in Sanders threads.

I've learned a great deal by listening. I think you make a good point about Obama. That's a really loaded topic for me, and I don't know that right here is the best place to discuss it. What I'll say is that, regardless of my own take, I GET the Black community' support for him, and don't begrudge it. I'll point out that Sanders himself speaks very positively about Obama, even when disagreeing with him. He spends more time mentioning his agreements than disagreements.

I also have seen what you describe, the defensive shut down of conversation. In this case, and in life. I've reacted that way myself many times.

I hope you, and others, will keep talking. I'll be listening, and I hope the rest will, too.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #11)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:50 AM

23. Thank you for this post.

 

I appreciate the way Sanders has listened to us and changed the way he discusses issues. He still has a way to go but I think he has been improving daily since netroots.
For Hillary's part, she listens to what is going on and jumps right in to say the right thing. Some may call it pandering; maybe it is, but it is working regardless. People LIKE to have their issues raised up and discussed. Also, having Bill go around on his apology tour has done ALOT of good. Some may laugh and say 'Yeah right, black folks won't forgive him for mass incarcerations!', but they are wrong. We will. We remember the gang wars going on at the time and we ALL overreacted; even us in the black community. Many supported the crime bill, even among black folks. We hate crime too, and violence proliferates in our communities. Our children were dying; soldiers in a street war. I lost a few people myself, in my teenage years I joined a gang and hung out, I saw drive bys, watched friends being shot, went to many funerals, witnessed the crack epidemic and had family lost to drugs. See, we have to forgive him to forgive ourselves. We are quick to forgive and hope for a better future.

Now, as far as mean supporters go, there are a few that do the damage for the rest of you. I wish people would keep an eye out and not support the most over the top supporters. I have had some terribly racist things said to me by his supporters. It really hurt me deeply and made me shut down, lessened my excitement for Bernie and made me feel like an outsider. I thought we all wanted the same things, but I was mistaken. I'm big on feelings. They are very important to me.

I am an observer of human nature, I watch people and how they behave. I also have an addiction to reading so I have no one on ignore and read nearly every post on thread that have more than 25 replies. I find you all fascinating and learn so much here that I just cannot stop reading. That is probably why I see more of the nastiness.

When the primary started I felt that Hillary supporters were being nasty. They calmed down quite a bit and now Bernie's are the ones being that way. To me it's sad, because I had so much hope and felt very excited to have a candidate with positions I loved. This has made me kinda miserable.

Thank you for understanding our support for the President.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #23)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:45 AM

61. One thing

that Sanders says that we can all do a better job with; it's obvious, yet we still don't always get it:

"If we stand together, we will win."



"We" need to expand the framework of "we."

You are so correct about feelings. They trump logic every time. They do that for all of us. It helps, at least, it helps me, to hear you talk about that. It's so easy to forget that MY feelings aren't the center of the universe, even when I know better, because, well, because they are what I feel.

I also have to admit that you are more forgiving than I. This is something that I've struggled with all of my life. I can "forgive" on the surface, but I never forget, and that surface forgiveness is really just a band-aid over scars that don't go away. Forgiveness and trust...my two biggest issues in life.

Let's keep the conversation going. It can't help but be a healthy thing, regardless of political outcomes.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #61)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:54 PM

169. I have issues with forgetting. I'm an elephant about that.

 

But I have to look ahead. I also have trust issues. But I WANT to trust and forgive. I have to hope things improve. Otherwise why even bother trying?

I hope this leads to more dicussions.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #61)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:58 PM

175. Good point

Longer quote on same subject:


". . . As I said earlier, this campaign is not about me. This campaign is about you and three hundred million other Americans. And what I've also said, time and time again, no president can do it alone. We need a grass roots political movement of which I hope you will become part of. Do not let our opponents divide us up by race, do not let them divide us up by sexual orientation, do not let them divide us up by gender or by the country of our origin! . . . When we come together as a nation, when we are prepared to stand up to the greed of wall street and corporate America, when we are prepared to tell them that this great country belongs to every man woman and child and not just to a handful of billionaires, when we have the courage to do that, there is nothing we cannot accomplish! Let's do it, thank you very much!"


For an earlier OP I did on this subject
http://www.democraticunderground.com/128030288

And I agree that feelings are a key part of politics. Some politicians are mostly about feelings and some all about policy. I like Bernie's policy positions, I think they are great and he is great and laying them out clearly. But I do think he could try to warm up a little, connecting to people is part of policy, you cannot accomplish these things in a vacuum, we need to get people working together!

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Response to bravenak (Reply #23)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:25 PM

184. "she listens to what is going on and jumps right in to say the right thing." REALLY?

 

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Response to LWolf (Reply #11)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:21 AM

43. The worst I've seen from supporters attacking black people online has been on Twitter, not here.

Yes, there are a lot of tone deaf posts, even hostile ones, but on Twitter, idiots who at least claim to support Sanders have been attacking prominent black Twitter users ever since the NN15 event. Occam's razor says that at least some portion thereof really do support Sanders, but they're doing horrible damage to him by acting like assholes to black people who were fairly neutral towards Sanders until they started getting attacked by people who seem to be his supporters. The whole BernieSoBlack hashtag came about simply to make fun of those people, not Bernie himself, but people with a poor sense of humour took it as another attack on him, and simply stepped up the condescension or the hostility.

It's been painful to watch.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #43)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:02 PM

70. I'm sorry to hear that.

To be honest, I don't really understand Twitter. I am not a complete techno dinosaur, but the Twitter account I opened when it arrived on the seen those years back remains unused; I never understood what to do with it, or why, and now don't even remember how to get there. I understand that I'm an outlier in that, though. If I were a Twitter user, I'd offer up support for BLM, in general and for the action at NN. It might not have been pleasant, but it accomplished something good.

Bravenak was talking about feelings, and about being defensive. I think this is true for many Sanders supporters, as well. They felt attacked and got defensive, and haven't been able to come out of that place.

Others have listened, and are moving forward, just as Sanders is. I have a lot of other thoughts, and feelings, about the political and racial divisions, in the nation and in the Democratic Party. I haven't talked about them on DU, and probably won't, because I feel like they'd be more likely to feed those divisions than heal them. I'd rather listen, learn, and chime in when I've got something constructive to say and know how to say it in a way that will be taken constructively.

Probably, the best way to move forward for any group that feels attacked is to listen and then reach out. I think that can happen for most of us. At least across racial divides. I don't know that it's going to happen across the Clinton/Sanders divide; I'm really shocked that it's this ugly, this early. That's why I'm trying to stay completely out of Clinton threads of any kind. I just don't want to feed it.

I've always admitted to being an idealist; I've called myself a "defiant idealist," because of the derision that is heaped upon idealism. I'm never going to apologize for that, though. I really think that we get a lot farther by going after the ideal, even though we don't get there, than be defending the status quo or accepting mediocrity.

I can also admit to being somewhat naive, as so much of the mainstream political process doesn't fit within my ideals, and I've rejected it.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #70)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:45 PM

209. Just type Twitter, or poke at one of those little bluebirds you see here and there, and

there you are. Then you have to follow people, and you can read their feeds. There are lots of good newsfeeds, and celebrities, and politicians, you can follow, and you can also follow personal friends if you go that route. Anthony Weiner got in trouble on that score.

I use twitter to get news and things like that--I have no "personal" friends on it. I use it like a newswire.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #43)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:20 PM

91. You should follow people who are supportive of BLM, I have been following them and

the Ferguson protesters since the protests began, and I see nothing but support for them. You can block people on twitter who are nothing more than haters, one think I like about it, and get support from reasonable people for the issues that matter to you.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #43)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:42 PM

159. Thanks for the info about Twitter.

I don't mess with it much and don't really understand how to use it productively (i.e., how to get maximum information for minimum time investment - got time to advise me?), so I appreciate finding out about things like this.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #159)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:55 PM

210. I'm still fairly new to it myself, and I'm sure I don't have it properly configured.

Because it can cause my whole computer to creep to a halt at times. I basically mostly just followed various accounts and read what came through. I've actually done 4 tweets now, although I think for the first few weeks I didn't do any. Mostly I'm just interested in getting news I wouldn't otherwise get. I've dropped a couple of the most prolific posters I was following, not out of ideology, but simply because they were drowning me, tweeting every minute or two for hours on end, and making it hard for me to follow others. Unless there's a way to sort followed folks into multiple twitter streams that I haven't discovered yet, it seems like you'd very quickly reach the point where you couldn't follow everyone you were interested in without missing an awful lot. I'd like to be able to have a 'twitter-unions' stream, a 'twitter-professional orgs' stream, a 'twitter-activists' stream and so on. Right now they're all in one big mix.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #11)


Response to Name removed (Reply #172)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:57 PM

173. I'll give it a try, thanks! nt

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:34 AM

16. I've got absolutely nothing to say here but.....++++++++

God dang folks, please listen to what bracenak is trying sooooooooooooooooooooooooo hard to explain.

It is so important!!

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Response to nc4bo (Reply #16)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:28 AM

48. Thank you!nt

 

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:35 AM

17. I will K and R this now without reading it yet!

I am too preoccupied with "offline issues" this am to be able to concentrate on this but look forward to reading it later on. I always enjoy , apppreciate, and read and respect your posts even if some of what you say bothers me and I find bizarre ("you better like obama or else "we" all hate you and will hate the politicians you support).

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Response to m-lekktor (Reply #17)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:52 AM

24. Lol!

 

Yeah. It's weird but liking Obama will get you black votes and friends.

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:35 AM

18. I understand and don't dislike you in any way.

It has to do with powers that now work on policy for the party as a whole. They will not allow the people to be protected from corporate malfeasance on a large scale. Think tanks now are mostly concerned with challenges of reform that will not allow their free reign. They have become too powerful. It takes a large coalition to have any affect on that. They will divide it up in anyway they can. It's not ideology but where power lies. Our message is not exclusionary but the opposite. We aren't saying all their candidates have no good ideas. And thanks for your heartfelt post.

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Response to mmonk (Reply #18)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:10 AM

32. Thank you for taking my opinions into consideration.nt

 

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:36 AM

19. good advice.

i think the obvious affection and respect that hc and obama have for each other is a powerful signal to black voters. i know it is to me. (old white lady, staunch o fan)

a campaign of- the other guy sucks, etc, etc,- is NEVER a winning strategy. it motivates only the knee jerk hateful, and those are not our voters.
expanding voting, and protecting voting rights is our only hope.
and respecting voters and their choices is essential.

lets hope bernie supporters take your message to heart bravenak.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #19)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:46 AM

62. I hope they listen to me.nt

 

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:47 AM

21. Duely noted

And bookmarked for further reading.

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:50 AM

22. Thank you for this post. I think open, reality based discussion is key to progress.

I appreciate you laying out actual issues without getting sucked into the cycle of name calling and retribution.

Your post helps me understand, really confirms a feeling I have been having, something about if you are in a group that is being actively persecuted, you might tend to lean more toward a tried and true liberal, rather than a new, somewhat radical face.

I absolutely agree we Bernie supporters need to get out and really listen to people in the African American and Hispanic communities.

It may encourage you some to hear that after our Bernie meeting last Wednesday, which happened to attract a group of old lefties, frankly all white, the first activity which we seem to have come up with is setting up a table to do flyering and voter registration. But, unlike our habit of the last couple of decades, instead of putting the table on the main street in our neighborhood, it's going right in the nearby "project" housing, trying to reach out to, and listen to, the poorer, more likely to be African American and/or Hispanic people who live there.

I think if you look past the rhetoric which sometimes goes back and forth here, you will see that this seems to be Bernie's response too: "Okay, we're not doing so well with African Americans and Hispanics, let's listen, respond, try to bring more into the fold."

Really, IMHO, the very basic bottom line is that real change is going to require real coalition building. The Republicans, the oligarchs, the multinational corporations are all glad to see us divide up and split along racial, ethnic, gender, sexual orientation lines (all very powerful emotional things). It's our job as Democrats, if we really want a better world, to listen, respond and grow past these wedges that can drive us apart!

Thank you for your efforts towards productive discussion and action!

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Response to DLnyc (Reply #22)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:05 AM

29. That is a good idea what you are doing.

 

I'm glad you find my posts helpful.

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 10:56 AM

26. THANK YOU!

I so appreciate that you keep trying. I doubt I could do it, and I am grateful to you.

What you say is the same thing I hear locally, and I'm not social at all, just happen to know a few people who will tell me political things. As a Bernie supporter, the things I hear with regard to PoC's votes scares me.

Here's what resonated with me:

Minority communities are big on respect and appreciate attention paid to the issues that affect our communities specifically. We also want our vote earned and for the candidates to come to us and ask for our votes.


From what I heard, that didn't happen where I am. I realize the campaign has snowballed, and I'm sure they're snowed under. But it's something for them to think about in the future.

Bernie's supporters HAVE to listen to the members of the African American community and bite their tongues and figure out how to use the information we provide effectively.


I've been trying to do that and hope I have been at least somewhat successful.

I fear that the active dislike for the man that many African Americans respect and love (honestly, we place him at the top of the list of All Time Greatest African Americans, above Martin Luther King Jr and MalcolmX, he to us is the all time greatest African American) is harming Bernie tremendously. We have an emotional connection to him, no amount of logic and policy discussions will change that.


We know the Clintons. We know they made terrible decisions. But when supporters beat us up with those facts, it shuts down the conversation and everyone retreats to their previously held positions.


I haven't been keeping stats, but I have the perception that there's been quite a bit of telling people how to feel going on. In my experience, that never works.

Thank you again.

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Response to SusanCalvin (Reply #26)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:09 AM

30. You're Welcome!!!

 

I'm glad that you are finding success and I hope that your attitude spreads through the ranks. I hope people can read my words and try, like you are, to use what I say to help out their candidate. I will vote for the nominee, but we need to give others a good reason to stabs in those long ass lines because they are EXCITED about the candidate. We need a strong showing on election day.

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:02 AM

27. Great post.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #27)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:09 AM

31. Thanks.nt

 

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:14 AM

35. Excellent !

I only hope Bernie gets to read your words before it's too late. As a Civil Rights Marcher long ago before it was in fashion I've always felt Bernie was supportive of the Black Community. I can see now he needs not to rest on his Laurels and go out and prove it to the world he will build on the good that our President has worked for these past 7 years or so.

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Response to sellitman (Reply #35)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:15 AM

38. I would LOVE IT if he read my post!!

 

That would be awesome!!

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Response to sellitman (Reply #35)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:32 PM

187. Bernie will strengthen on issues for black people, as he has for all through his 40 year career.

#143 illustrates some of how he has not rested on 'his Laurels' since college activism and the 1963 March on Washington. But perhaps you know all this.

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:20 AM

41. I think we Bernie supporters could also learn a lot from Obama on issues of race.

He has been the one dealing with the issues being raised by BLM for several years now. Acknowledging and embracing his efforts and successes is critical if we are to move forward as a society.

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Response to jalan48 (Reply #41)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:27 AM

45. I agree.nt

 

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Response to jalan48 (Reply #41)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:36 PM

156. I actually would like for him to step up even more. And I fully expect him to as the end of his term

is nearer. God knows something has to be done now.

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Response to jwirr (Reply #156)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:48 PM

164. Yes, he's in a position to actually do something. He would be listened to by all Democrats.

Hillary and Bernie can just talk and say the right things at this point.

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:21 AM

42. Wow, bravenak! What an awesome, well-written post!

First of all, I am amazed at your extraordinary patience and compassion. And thank you for being such an excellent teacher - I have learned so much from you!

There is nothing for me to add to what you've written, except to echo your request that people truly listen to what you've said.

We are so lucky to have you here on DU!

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Response to scarletwoman (Reply #42)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:26 AM

44. Thank you, I love you too!!

 



I keep trying because I am hopeful. I still believe in Hope and Change!

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Response to bravenak (Reply #44)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:51 AM

65. "I still believe in Hope and Change!"

I read that and had to stop and think: do I still believe in that, too?

And I took a look at my easy cynicism - at 65 years old, I've been disappointed with politicians often enough throughout the years - but I realize that cynicism is just another luxury that a white person like me can indulge in, with no particular consequences to my personal life.

No, cynicism won't do. Apathy won't do. Hopelessness won't do. Another lesson I'll take from you.

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Response to scarletwoman (Reply #65)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:08 PM

75. Without hope we are lost.

 

When I feel cynical I remember the slaves in the fields praying for freedom. Some died waiting, many did, but here we are. Free at last. We can build on that hope of my ancestors. We can change the world. If we care to.

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:27 AM

46. As I said the other thread, great post.

I think that your suggestions are a very good starting point.
I, for instance, have been pretty critical of Obama for not going far enough on many things, but I have to say that the way you suggesting approaching his legacy is much more constructive in relation to the Black community. Something I will be much more mindful of.

Your other suggestions ring true as well.
Thanks again for your perspective, it really does help bridge the racial gap I see (tragically) opening up within the liberal parts of the party.

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Response to blackspade (Reply #46)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:37 AM

50. I am very glad you find it helpful.

 

I want us to win. Hell, I want BERNIE to win.

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:28 AM

47. Very well said,bravenak.

 

Your OP made me aware of issues gone unnoticed. Thank you.

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Response to Duval (Reply #47)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:28 AM

49. I am so glad. Thank you for reading the whole thing.nt

 

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:37 AM

51. This is well writ and a thoughtful reflection.

I agree with most of what you say. I also want better Democratic candidates. It's my choice to remain unaligned for now. There are pluses and minuses with all political candidates, and I heavily weigh their competitiveness and effectiveness in being able to actually accomplish their stated proposals in the face of a rigid and uncompromising opposition.

His avid supporters aren't helping him and insisting that he can -- and must -- do better. I worry that Sanders won't last because he is too narrowly focused on a few cherished issues and isn't working on a broader range of interests to remain competitive, let alone achieve a victory. I want him to do better, to stretch and be more than he is, and I am concerned that he doesn't seem to have the determination to step out of his comfort zone. I want him to expand his POV and pull out all the stops to include a wider range of issues that concern the larger demographic voter groups.


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Response to procon (Reply #51)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:39 AM

53. I want the same things. We can do better. We MUST.

 

I hope that this will help open up a dialog that can continue. In a positive way that will help us win and grow our coalition at the same time.

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:38 AM

52. A wonderful, thought-provoking post.

Thank you bravenak.

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Response to blue neen (Reply #52)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:40 AM

54. Thank you!nt

 

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:40 AM

55. Thanks for this. Really good post.

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Response to TDale313 (Reply #55)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:41 AM

57. You're welcome!nt

 

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:41 AM

56. As someone who will wear Bernie's credentials on Election Day, if he is the nominee, I appreciate

 

and support this thread.

Well done.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #56)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:42 AM

58. Thank you.

 

I also will be voting for him if he is the nominee. I am a loyal Democrat.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #58)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:43 AM

60. I will not hesitate to vote for him, and I will not hesitate to work on his behalf for voter

 

protection.....


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Response to msanthrope (Reply #60)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:48 AM

63. Me too. I will do what I need to do for the nominee, regardless. I'm cool like that.nt

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #63)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:02 PM

69. for you.....

 

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #69)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:05 PM

73. Lol!! That is EXACTLY what I was thinking!nt

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #73)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:07 PM

74. That you and I are on the same wavelength has made my day.

 

Be well, safe, and happy.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #74)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:09 PM

76. You too. Take care. This was great.nt

 

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:42 AM

59. I appreciate the spirit of your post. Here is an honest response

 

(Context" I have been a huge believer in Bernie Sanders since the 1990's.)

I understand why President Obama is loved by the black community. I also understand how ingrained and difficult racism is. I grew up in the 60's, and know both the progress that has been made, and the problems that remain.

Having said that, I have to tell you that your contention makes a rel discussion of issues (and real campaigning) difficult.

I'm a white guy and I love President Obama. Among other things, I fought for him here on DU back in the day (primaries). In many ways, his view of the world resonates with mine very closely. I often have heard him speak and felt like "yes he is speaking for me."

But he has also pissed me off at times, because he has crossed line that oppose my fundamental beliefs. I strongly disagreed with his approach to healthcare. I didn't like his flirtation with the GOP on Social Security and the "deficit." I think the TPP is going to be a disaster that going to undermine the economy and out democracy once it kicks in. And his support for it is both baffling and angering.

I also like Hillary as a person, and recognize the good things she has done. But she also represents what I believe is the worst aspects of the current Democratic heirarchy -- The fact that she moves in the World of Corporate Robber Barons and Wall St. and represents their interests and worldview in too many ways.

Now here's the dilemma. How, according to your contention, am I (and we, ie Bernie supporters) supposed to criticize the TPP without seeming like I am attacking the beloved President? Should I just violate everything I believe in and ignore it? Likewise with Hillary and issues like Democratic collaboration with Goldman Sachs over the years.

And I don't think social and economic justice are an either/or proposition. They do not overlap in every way. But they do overlap in many ways. ALL ethnic groups and other social distinctions would do a lot better with an economy that is oriented to the interests of the middle, working and poor classes. Housing, jobs, consumer rights, etc. effect everyone. It also address many so-called social issues.

Yes, combating racism and its impacts -- both institutional and defacto -- is a key issue. But it is possible to both see the interconnection with economics, and deal with the other aspects at the same time.

Personally, I would hope that individual people of all "groups" can think for themselves, in addition to the social factors that form us. Going by your logic, I should be automatically supporting and loving Hillary because we're both blonde WASPS of a similar age. I would automatically reject the argument of a black progressive because he might say bad things about her, or some other white politician.

I brought up Dr. Ben Carson to you yesterday You said "we" have rejected him. I don't know why if I apply your theory. First of all does that imply all blacks are politically monolithic? What's the difference of criticizing that African American politician and criticizing President Obama on the substance of their views? Am I allowed to criticize Carson but not Obama?

I am honestly asking how we are supposed to deal with this dilemma. My own feeling is that the real way to not be racist (and not sexist in Clinton's case) is to treat politicians the same no matter what their race creed, color, etc. When Obama does well, I'll praise him. When he does something I disagree with, criticize that.

In other ways how do we deal with legitimate sensitivities without stifling healthy, honest debate? How do campaigns address important issues, no matter who that may involve criticizing?

I dunno.

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Response to Armstead (Reply #59)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:04 PM

71. Here, let me try to help you with your concerns.

 

It is not the same for you. Most leaders in this nation hve been white. We ONLY have Obama. There is really nothing you can do but bite your tongue hard as hell if yiu want to win. Black people have been doing that with White democratic leaders FOREVER. For once, y'all gotta hush.

You have to let go of your anger about things you thought Obama was going to do but didn't actually do. Look at the shit black folks have been through. We look at you guys crazy wondering how the hell are you madder than we are. We think you guys turned on him very quickly in a way you'd never do to a white liberal, fair or not, that is the perception. The level of anger towards him just feeds the narrative that white progressives are NOT our allies really, and just use us as pawns and turn on us when we step off the plantation. In order to stop feeding into it, you guys have to stfu for once. Otherwise black folks will just remain with the default candidate. Fair or foul, it is a big ass turn off and is KILLING you with black voters. Read what MalcolmX said about white liberals being worse than republicans. We know we are being used. We have aoways known and we are tired of sinking further and falling farther behind while white liberals worry about THEIR paychecks; we worry about our children making it home alive. Sorry, but our issues are much more important to us than the oligarchy. Hell, we see YOU as a part of the system that oppresses us.

Of course black folks run the spectrum politically. But we stick together.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #71)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:12 PM

78. And in response I'd say...

 

I am not going to "shut the fuck up." because if we do, then the status quo will just continue on its present course.

And that's not good for anyone.

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Response to Armstead (Reply #78)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:15 PM

84. Everyone has to stfu sometimes.

 

Especially if what you are saying is making you lose. If biting your tongue will get your candidate into the White House, the smart thing to do is stfu.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #84)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:17 PM

88. What the fuck is Sanders (and we) supposed to do?

 

Just run an endless tape loop that says: I love President Obama. And I love Hilary. Please vote for Bernie."

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Response to Armstead (Reply #88)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:27 PM

97. Like I said, change the way you frame the issues.

 

Rather than complain about Obama, respect his accomplishments and say how Bernie will expand/build upon them. And stop being so angry and defensive; it is not helpful. If you want to win you have to act like winners. Losers trash other candidates because they are insecure, winners are confident that they will meet their goals.
Really, to win black votes you have to understand black voters. We like Obama. We do not like people badmouthing them. You wanna steal us from Hillary? Don't be a snob. Be nice to us. Support our movements. We go with the folks who TREAT us KINDLY. We know that as long as we have a Democrat, we can breathe easier, no matter who the Democrat is. These differences between candidates that seem as wide as the grand canyon, are not as big of a deal to us. We are already stressed out; the last thing we need are lofty academic lectures or snark. The Hillary folks are nice to us. You have to be nice too or we go to her.

It is not about you, your feelings, or your ideology. It is about putting Bernie in the White House.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #97)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:36 PM

106. Sorry but that's bullshit. Your response proved that it's impossible to be "nice enough" for you

 

When you respond to a sincere attempt to have a good faith dialogue with "shut the fuck up" until after the election, I can't take you seriously. Nor am I going to defend the fact that I am white, and therefore-- in your opinion -- incapable of understanding the plight of people who are not exactly like me.

And quite honestly, I don't agree with your assessment of blacks as monolithic or unable to comprehend the difference between legitimate debate and attacking a well-liked politician.

You're just applying another version of the same limitations on discussion on issues as the conservative Democrat and Republicans.

I prefer to give people more credit than that. If you want to call that condescending or "lecturing" then be my guest.

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Response to Armstead (Reply #106)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:02 PM

128. I told you how to win. Your pride is in the way.nt

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #128)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:34 PM

153. If I let my pride get in the way I'd have given up long ago

 

This isn't personal.You don't know me. I don't know you. Don't really need to.

But I will say this. It's not a matter of pride. But I do resent to being told yet again that raising core economic issues is a no-no. And that progressives, liberals whatever you want to call it, should shut up one more time because we don't "understand."

So your little snipe is nothing new. Usually that has come from conservative Democrats with either a vested interest in perpetuating the problems, or who were afraid to "alienate" those swing voters we need to attract.The only difference in what you're saying is there is now an entire ethnic group we have to avoid "alienating" by pointing this stuff out.

I've cared (and taken action as I could) about the issues that Sanders is talking about since the 1970's. I have watched as the economy was systematically distorted and undermined -- to the disadvantage of everyone who is not in the top percentage -- over more than 30 years. This shit DOES matter to EVERYONE who is not wealthy. In real day-to-day terms.

And I have seen the Democrats participating in that process. Either by ignoring the problems or colluding with the GOP.

And for all that time, I have seen those, like Sanders and we small grassroots people, who tried to raise these issues dismissed and marginalized all along the way. And when we tried to warn about the avoidable consequences basically told to "shut the fuck up because voters won't understand or like what you're saying. "

What offends me about your response is that I sincerely tried to have an honest discussion with you, and was told -- yet again -- that we should just shut the fuck up. Also that as "privileged" white person I couldn't possibly understand the real problems.

Well, I know this will sound condescending, but when I was in high school I read the Autobiography of Malcom X, and it was one of the things that shaped my views. (One of the things, there were many others.)

Sure there are things I (we) have to learn about how to frame issues, etc. But I think I'll look to people with a somewhat broader view than the rigid answer you express for that.













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Response to Armstead (Reply #153)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:41 PM

158. Nobody is saying you cannot raise your economic issues.

 

Just do not expect the rest of us to see it as the most important issue.
I can see you just want a fight, but I am not in the mood to give it to you.

You guys ARE alienating black voters with your anger and dismissiveness and unwillingness to let other people speak and listen. You cannot hear us if you are busy doing all thectalking and taking up all the space. We will just go where our voices are wanted and where folks will stfu long enough to listen to our urgent life or death message.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #158)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:48 PM

163. Interpet as you wish

 

I wasted pecious time trying in good fauth to discuss something with you, and you exhibit "anger and dismissiveness" yourself.

There are a lot of people who actually do have alternative ideas that are worth listening to, but you are not one of them.

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Response to Armstead (Reply #163)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:49 PM

166. Very nasty post.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #166)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:51 PM

167. Somwhat in line with "Shut the fuck up."

 

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Response to Armstead (Reply #167)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:55 PM

170. Are you done being nasty yet, or do you need to go on for a few more posts to prove my point?

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #170)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:57 PM

174. Oh we could go back and forth -- But I don't have the time.

 

Sorry you did not want to engage in productive conversation. Bye.

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Response to Armstead (Reply #174)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 05:35 PM

220. You have the patience of a saint, Armstead.

Thank you for the thoughtful, articulate posts.

Please don't feel as if they were a waste of time. I'm sure that I'm not the only person who learned a little something from that interaction.

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Response to PotatoChip (Reply #220)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:37 PM

262. True. nt

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #128)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 07:59 PM

313. So if we all do what you demand

you're guaranteeing a conversion in the black community and a Sanders win?

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #313)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 08:05 PM

315. These are suggestions.

 

And yes. I guarantee you will at least cut into her lead significantly. Cannot guarantee a win. It is unlikely at this point. But, these are the major complaints that I read and hear and discuss with my fellow african Americans. They have no very serious issues with Sander's policy, but, the TPP has much higher support among AA's than here on DU. That is something to keep in mind too.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #313)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 08:23 PM

320. Of course she is guaranteeing

 

a Sanders win. She reads people. I just wasted 10 minutes on this OP.

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Response to 840high (Reply #320)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 08:27 PM

324. I prefer Sanders. You can think I am disingenuous, but I am not.

 

Sad you did not enjoy my writing. I really put alot of effort into it.

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Response to Armstead (Reply #106)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:44 PM

160. +1000

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Response to bravenak (Reply #97)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:47 PM

162. You're on a roll today!

This is exactly what my BIL said - the crazy lovesick black guy who married my sis and found himself surrounded by my mostly rapidly rightwing family -- it's like me badmouthing them is OK, but not for the non-family outsiders, so silence is the better part of valor in the face of a strong kinship. He does the STFU routine until we are safely out of earshot.

Candidates have one job; selling their brand to get elected. Their loyal supporters have one job; to represent their candidate in the most positive and favorable light possible, and to do so in a manner that will not alienate and turn off potential voters, but rather convince those who are aligned with other Democratic camps to join their winning team. If they can't rise to that level, then STFU is the best way to protect their own candidate.




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Response to procon (Reply #162)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 01:48 PM

165. Thank you for understanding my stfu argument.

 

I do it all the time.

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Response to procon (Reply #162)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:30 PM

185. Thank you. nt

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Response to bravenak (Reply #84)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 05:35 PM

219. Why would I give a damn if a candidate gets into office if they are handcuffed into continuing

what I opposed and looked in their direction to change course from?

I like, often agree with, and support Sanders but it isn't about having my particular mascot or being in love with him. It is entirely besides the point for him to just hold the office and become the face of the same system but rather it is about changing the course.

There is no benefit to Sanders if the idea is just to keep on keeping on and he is more useful in the Senate to get the country even somewhat on track.

What does it profit a person to gain the world and lose their soul? What good is to have your candidate elected if they adopt the policies that are undesirable as the cost of admission?

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #219)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 05:43 PM

223. Because not everyone is your ideological twin in this party.

 

You will not get everything you want, but if your guys wins you at least get some of it.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #223)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 08:41 PM

330. But only the same some that was coming anyway. If Sanders has to be Rubinesque Clintonite

fracking loving, surveillance state championing, "free" trading, TeaPubliKlan appeasing, drug warring, war criminal whitewashing, type to "win" then why bother I can just throw up a Ready for Hillary sticker and go along with whatever the establishment prefers to doomsday.

This isn't a discussion about choosing an avatar, a clone of Sanders with a different set of ideas with an unswerving predilection for the "wisdom" of Larry Summers along with Hillary and the worst of the Clinton crew and utterly without any articulably valid reason Arnie Duncan, Clapper, and Petraeus is of exactly zero interest or benefit nor worth any effort to advance in a primary.

What do I need with Heath bar wrappers on a 3 Musketeers. If I wanted a damn 3 Musketeers the shelves have no shortage, I didn't want the Heath for the paper I'm fixing to toss in the trash.

Of course nobody gets 100% of what they want, there will be compromises when dealing with other people but the point is to at least start the negotiations at another position. Maybe I can only get a weak but similar Skor, maybe it is Chocolate with toffee chips.
Hell, maybe I end up with a Snickers or even a sadsack Milky Way if that is the way the cookie crumbles as an actual compromise breaks that way but to tell me the compromise is I get my choice of wrapper then I'm left wondering what is going on that anyone would think that was of any value.

If all I can have is 3 Musketeers then just give it to me wrapper and all but I reject the notion and instead will fight for what I think is right because the fight is worth having even in defeat and it's not to be an asshole but because Obama cannot make wrongheaded neoliberalism right for me nor will it change the demonstrated outcomes of those policies to something they don't intend.

Plus, this line of reasoning isn't even ideological based. There is no honest and heartfelt argument about the policies opposed themselves. In fact no argument of the merits in and of themselves at all.

The only play ideology has in the discussion is embracing one that I know doesn't work, is often detrimental, and significantly empowers the worst and most powerful wrongheaded motherfuckers on the face of the Earth in reverence to a politician that keeps a lot of vipers at arms reach or closer.

I first voted for Obama to repudiate some of the very things I'm being advised to embrace because he did in order to "win" and that doesn't and I think shouldn't fly with anyone because it isn't rational and similar thinking has led straight to disaster way more often than not throughout history.

You're a wise beyond years person, redact the names and situation and tell me it is a logical thought process that should be standard operating procedure.

This isn't an ideological discussion but rather close as I can compare it to is a religious one. I don't need to come to worship.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #330)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 08:45 PM

332. This is more of an emotional appeal and a request for a change in the way things are discussed.

 

Think about where you are on the spectrum. I am so much farther to the left than most black folks that I expect absolutely nothing that I want to EVER pass. The best we are going to get is somebody similar, and jack all will pass our congress. Yes. I am asking you to fake the funk and bite tongues and lure black voters from Hillary with me. I know it sucks.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #332)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 06:59 AM

423. I don't see how that works short term to somehow win the nomination without a case for running

There would be no distinction from Clinton and no reason to be opposing her.

The long term is worse, in an effort to "win" embracing or being silent on bad policy means buying it and owning it, abandoning even the space to voice opposition to what is known to be wrong in the first place.

Maybe you are arguing put on the show and then just do the opposite while giving Obama the credit for how we are moving forward forcing him to either accept it or call bullshit on the con. Not my style and feels in the neighborhood of condescending and the wrong way to operate but maybe my hair was a mess because my mother didn't exactly know how to deal with it or something (and yes she could fuck it up, had me with a Richard Simmons do one time but since my sisters' were fine I think it was more a boy thing and an experimental personality) and I just don't quite "get it" and am "out of the mainstream".

Sure black folks can be conservative but not usually Turd Way flavor but really most often more socially like not too hip on gay rights or abortion, can be dangerously and ironically fall for the tough on crime and drug worrier crap.

However, hand wringing about taxes, too much regulation, and government spending or in a panic about "terror" have never been really big that I've ever seen.

The Turd Way isn't any tip of the hat to a lot of black people's conservative and/or religious streaks, it is an appeal to Raygun Democrats, softer TeaPubliKlans, and the more secular right libertarians include corporate bigwigs and those running the banks and Wall Street, all or predominately white folks.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #423)

Mon Aug 3, 2015, 07:32 AM

424. I can only try, I cannot force.

 

I understand you sticking to your principles. I really don't see how the interests that social justice advocates propose conflict or hinder the ability to get at least somewhere near your goals. Nothing at all will be done unless a coalition is built. And in order to get enough people, it cannot be an ideoligically pure bubble where everyone agrees on everything.

It is not a conjob to actively listen and add important issues to your agenda to gain allies. You and I both care extremely about social justice. We are black. It is a given for us that we MUST continue the struggle not only for economic equlity or at least some form of justice, and we know that money will not fix it. It will make the shit easier to swallow but it will not take away that fear; and eating shit is still eating shit, even if you fry it up with onions and potliquor. Why should we have a poorer quality of life just because of our skin color? We should be able to walk proud, defend our rights verbally and have the same level of privilege as our similarly financed white citizens.

Not everyone has the ability to empathize and even think about the differences in quality of life lived. They should. In order to see the issues from our perspective they have to listen more than they lecture. They have to come down in the dirt and leave Marx on their nightstand.

Not everyone is going to love Obama, but I know that when folks badmouth him in a group of black people, they get the side eye and maybe cussed out. I have seen it come to blows. If people are so emotionally invested in that wonderful man, speaking negatively of him is just about the worst thing you can do. I didn't speak to my landlord for a month because he said 'I'm mad at Obama for freeing the Gays!' I'm still not quite over it. He gets so much unfair stupid ass nonsence 'omg look at the muslim no papers having african commie' bullshit that nobody will even listen pass the point where one says 'I'm disappointed in Obama - ', they just won't. Especially church people (my uncle runs a church in Los Angeles), they have oil paintings of Obama right next to Black Jesus and MLKjr, and I know you know that. You have to. You're black. It is unavoidable.

I still suggest trying to say how bernie will build on Obama's accomplishments and avoid things that will turn away potential voters. Most voters do not vote based on rational discourse and a well rounded view and serious knowledge of the political issues of our day. They vote based on how they FEEL. And they feel defensive over him.


Many did not understand the reasons why Bernie has issues with black voters. This was my attemp- my final attempt to bridge the gap and try to bring more positive discussions forth from this gloomy place. I really am very good at understanding people and how they operate on an emotional level. I'm an INFP personality type. Really weird people but good at observation and empathizing. I can convince most people to come my way if I try hard enough to understand what motivates them. I really should work on campaigns. Bernie would aporeciate my opinions I think. You guys should send this to him.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #71)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:23 PM

95. Damn, now THAT is what I call keeping' it real :-) EOM

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Response to Armstead (Reply #59)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:12 PM

79. This ^ speaks for me as well..

 

and I'd like to hear Bravenak's response to it.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #79)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:14 PM

81. "Shut the fuck up" That's the reasoned response

 

...and I wasted all my time writing my post.

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Response to Armstead (Reply #81)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:18 PM

89. I see

 

Oh well, you tried.

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Response to Armstead (Reply #81)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:54 PM

119. No, because it was a good,

well reasoned post and not a waste of your time if folks like me gleam something from it.


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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:49 AM

64. I agree with you whole heartedly

Bernie has potential but work to do.

The linked NYT article below highlights, in my mind a distinct difference between Sanders and President Obama. In his speech to the Urban League, he referred to the "save our cities" program as "your theme" & to Latinos in another speech as "your people".

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/01/us/politics/hillary-clinton-hits-jeb-bush-first-and-hard-in-speech-on-race.html?_r=0

These "gaffes" if you will are a far cry from Obama's naturally inclusive approach.

I'm not saying, in any way, Sanders has any problem personally with Latinos or blacks. What I am saying is this:

I'm a middle aged white guy that voted for President Obama three times; once in a primary and in the two generals. There were plenty of candidates who shared similar policy positions. With President Obama, it felt then and still does today like we're all on the same team. I was "in" and it didn't matter if I was an old white guy. He certainly never put me in a group labelled "you people".

I wish all the candidates well and hope they all remember that, as in life, politics is all about learning.

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Response to GitRDun (Reply #64)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:14 PM

83. Yes. I feel included with Obama.

 

I was sad to feel left out of berniemania, but I felt unwanted or uncomfortable. I think it is important to connect with all communities. Hopefully things will start to improve.

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Response to GitRDun (Reply #64)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:32 PM

186. How you say things and how you make people feel matters.

A lot.

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 11:53 AM

67. I don't see it as an attack. Seeing some of the paternalistic sermons from my fellow Sandernists...

delivered particularly to the AA community has been embarrassing and disappointing. Bernie needs to dig down and figure out why his message is not getting through to the part of the electorate that arguably has the most to gain from Bernie Sanders' record and platform.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #67)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:11 PM

77. Thank you for this.

 

He can do it, but he needs his support to follow his lead. Many have already started, I hope more will follow.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #77)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:50 PM

115. If we don't face truth and start sticking together its going to be too late at some point. We'll ...

start looking a lot more like the GOP and we'll have our own versions of the Tea Party and Libertarians (would ours be suitably misnamed as the Conservatarians? Libertarians are Republicans who want to smoke pot legally, would Conservatarians want to grow pot legally but only for medicinal reasons?) and we surely don't want that.

Because then it'll be two clown cars. It starts with pandering to 'conservatives' and ends with condescending to the 'lesser' among us.

But I have no doubt. Bernie will do the right thing and at the very least we'll stay together and keep the clown car out of the White House.

How does a Biden/Sanders ticket sound to you as covering most people's doubts and attracting the most voters so we can get the problems with Congress a good at start at unseating; which we can finish in 2020.

I think Congress is more important than which Democrat gets to be POTUS.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #67)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 02:52 PM

197. ^^ this nt

 

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:02 PM

68. I don't think black and latino voters need to be pandered to.

 

Too much of this seems like we are treating certain groups of voters like children who need their treat if we are to get them to behave.

I say let Bernie be Bernie and if that appeals to voters then they will vote for him. If it does not, they will vote for someone else. And that's fine.

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Response to fbc (Reply #68)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:24 PM

96. Like the people mad at Wall Street?

Who love hearing about how the Koch brothers are responsible for everything, including US border policy?
Or who like empty promises about not taking money from Super PACs, when in fact no candidate can do so?
That kind of pandering?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #96)


Response to fbc (Reply #68)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 08:25 PM

322. Yep.

 

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:05 PM

72. Obama is a hard if not impossible act to follow-- which needs to be openly discussed

Thanks for a post that caused me to un-trash this forum to respond. I'd like to suggest that every Democratic candidate must show Obama the utmost respect as a person, for restoring dignity to an office that had been utterly trashed by his predecessor. Because the Republicans will continue to attack him both personally and politically, any criticism of him from the Democratic side will have to be framed in terms of a wider context of general approval and support. But the candidate with the most to prove on the Democratic side is the one who was relentlessly snarky and contemptuous towards him in 2008 and whose campaign used racist dog-whistles, IMHO.

I have never had the kind of personal admiration for a candidate that I did for Obama, and six years into his tenure I still find him far more appealing as a person-- and as a national spokesman-- than any of his would-be successors in either party. But when voting for him as a primary candidate and then in the general election, I hoped that he would change the party by moving it to the left, and had reason to expect that outcome. From day one in office, with the eminently unlikable and obnoxious Rahm Emanuel at his side, that hope was dashed and the question became either how much the party would change him, or how center-right his sympathies had always been. All these years later I still wonder. The empowerment of DINOs like Lieberman and Lincoln in the health care arena was horrifying and destructive of trust for those of us who most desperately needed real reform.

Further on the subject of likability, I had always had positive feelings for Hillary until the 2008 primary season, and have always had negative feelings toward her since. Doesn't mean I won't vote for her over any Republican, but does mean it would be with a very heavy heart. Sanders and O'Malley are both preferable to her, personally and politically, but if I could have my druthers Senator Warren is the only one I'd feel 100% positive towards as a candidate.

Thank you especially for apologizing re broad-brushing Sanders supporters; there has been a lot of manipulation going on to cause stereotyping and scapegoating of progressives as "haters" of Obama when mostly they're politically disappointed but still admire his personal qualities. Weighing the good and not-so-good aspects of the Obama legacy is going to become de rigueur for all candidates on both sides in the coming year. Poo-flinging about "haters" could become a year-long free-for-all at DU if we let it. Let's not.

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Response to carolinayellowdog (Reply #72)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:30 PM

101. Awesome post!nt

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #101)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:40 PM

109. I think you might want to reread that post

 

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Response to Armstead (Reply #109)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:42 PM

111. Why?nt

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #111)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:43 PM

112. Just read it

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #111)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:46 PM

114. Hint -- I agree with that post 100 percent

 

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Response to Armstead (Reply #114)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:57 PM

123. I do not have to agree to think an opinion was expressed in a respectful manner awesomely.

 

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Response to Armstead (Reply #114)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 06:54 PM

282. I like you.

 

Everything you've said here, plus your patience. Way better than I could do. Good show, Armstead.

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Response to senz (Reply #282)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 07:20 PM

296. Thanks....I'm glad somebody does around here

 

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Response to Armstead (Reply #296)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 08:49 PM

334. I like you.

 

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Response to carolinayellowdog (Reply #72)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 03:36 PM

207. Interesting post, esp. how you note that people distinguish between pride in Pres. Obama's

personal qualities and accomplishments, and political disappointment with some of his public policies. Add to that some cabinet choices. I agree that among Democrats, the one responsible for the most offensive and prominent remarks in 2008 must address their behavior. To be fair and balanced, that candidate must now also listen and heed the same way that Sanders as told must be more attentive and up to date on black people's issues. And that goes for all the supporters who are accountable for their candidates views and actions and visa versa- whether it's on DU, the Twitterverse or in the street.

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Response to carolinayellowdog (Reply #72)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 12:32 AM

465. I agree with what you have said

(this is not necessarily completely replying to your post, but ended up being a good place to post my comments given the conversation that was taking place)

I also still like and greatly admire President Obama. He has accomplished a hell of a lot in 6 1/2 years, especially considering the obstruction the Republicans have caused. If he were able to run again, I would vote for him in a heartbeat. No doubt.

There are some things that I am a bit disappointed in, one of which being the passing of the fast track legislation. I understand and see why he is pushing it, but I have issues with some of the possible outcomes. I'm not completely anti-trade, I believe we should not be allowing special interest to have so much influence. I also have concerns about the banking industry and student loan debt and feel like these need to be addressed. I'm not very vocal of any of these concerns, but that doesn't mean they don't matter. In fact they DO matter a great deal.

A member of DU falsely accused me of hating President Obama (the person is a well-known person and someone I used to respect) even though it was not true. To this day I've never gotten an apology for that person's shitty behavior (Yes, you know who you are). This goes back to the problem of Sander's supporters being broad brushed.

The same goes for when Clinton is criticized for her policy stances. Her supporters come out and throw around the "hater" label and say everything is right-wing talking points. The other day one of her supporters was talking about how Sanders was a socialist and I pointed out the hypocrisy in that person's behavior and rightfully so.

(Going back to the OP) I think the advice you are giving is well-meaning, but the number of Sander's supporters that would actually apply to is less than half. Again, the broad-brush of Sander's supporters doesn't fair well. As I stated above, I still have a very favorable opinion of President Obama. At the same time I will criticism areas where I believe the ball was dropped. If you think back to the 2008 campaign, it was he himself who told his supporters that they needed to hold him accountable. We still need to do that in the last 1 1/2 years (roughly) before he leaves office.


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Response to davidpdx (Reply #465)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 01:17 AM

471. It may be less than half but they have alot of ground to make up.

 

I expect that when we have a hispanic president they will feel the same and Asians will as well when we have an asian president. Our groups get left out of being reoresented in the White House, the Media, Film, Music, and in many other ways from popular American Culture. Once we get a foot in the door and support our representative, we put alit of trust and emotions into that person. They are responsible for us and us for them. They more complaints we hear, the quicker we look for the exit door. So if you know that and still choose to go on with it, it is your choice to do so. But you won't find us hanging out or supporting you. We'll find somebody who aporeciates his worth. Most do not vote based on policy. We vote based on how we feel..

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Response to bravenak (Reply #471)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 03:13 AM

473. I'm assuming from your post that you are referring to President Obama

Though you do not make it completely clear, which is why I'm asking.

If that is the case, I again point to two statements. One that I wholeheartedly support him and two that he asked us to hold his feet to the fire as he himself and I will continue to do that. The second one is FACT, not opinion. I have done that by voicing my concern through letters and petitions to him and to my Congress people, not by wasting time trashing him on DU.

That is appreciating his worth. If you want to claim otherwise please go ahead and say so directly to me. I worked my ass off to get him elected and reelected because I believe in him. That doesn't mean I lose the right to question what he does or says. Occasionally I do, though a majority of the time I am very happy he won.

I think you need to be careful about twisting people's words as you'll find yourself making more enemies than you need to.

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Response to davidpdx (Reply #473)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 03:19 AM

474. I meant the president.

 

And as far as making enemies? I'm black. My very presence can make me enemies just by looking at me.

This was me telling you how black people see the issue and how to win over that demographic. If that offends you, sorry for you, but this is the world we live in.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #474)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 04:38 AM

476. I took it as you addressing me

Not you addressing everyone. You could have made that one I bit clearer.

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Response to davidpdx (Reply #476)

Tue Aug 4, 2015, 04:40 AM

477. Nobody's perfect.nt

 

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Response to bravenak (Original post)

Sun Aug 2, 2015, 12:14 PM