Hillary Clinton bucks trend, confronts NRA

[BooScout]

[link:http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/hillary-clinton-bucks-trend-confronts-nra|


http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/hillary-clinton-bucks-trend-confronts-nra
<snip>

At the national level, meanwhile, the massive Republican presidential field is largely unified on all gun-related questions, and recent history suggests the Democratic candidates will generally avoid the issue. But the Washington Post had an interesting piece overnight highlighting the degree to which Hillary Clinton is pursuing her own course.
n a sign that the political environment on guns has shifted in the wake of recent mass shootings – and of Clinton’s determination to stake out liberal ground in her primary race against insurgent Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) – Clinton is not only initiating a debate about gun control but also vowing to fight the National Rifle Association.

“I’m going to speak out against the uncontrollable use of guns in our country because I believe we can do better,” Clinton said Tuesday in Iowa City.

A few days earlier, she said in Hanover, N.H.: “We have to take on the gun lobby…. This is a controversial issue. I am well aware of that. But I think it is the height of irresponsibility not to talk about it.”
The Post piece makes the case, persuasively, that this isn’t the norm for recent Democratic candidates. None of the party’s recent nominees in “several decades,” including President Obama, emphasized the issue at all while on the campaign trail.

I love Hillary!

[Sancho]

1. This is the correct direction...take on the gun lobby and more restrictions on guns.

Bravo.

[MADem]

2. This wants a kick and a rec... nt

[riversedge]

10. Happy to do that

[MoonRiver]

3. Thank you Hillary! FINALLY, a champion who will take on the NRA!

[jalan48]

4. I'm a Bernie supporter but it's great to see Hillary taking on the NRA. Good for her.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. F the NRA

eom

[Gore1FL]

6. Great News! n/t

[greymattermom]

7. She could engage the CDC

I think they are now prevented from gathering statistics on gun violence and deaths. Knowledge of just how bad things are would help a lot. They also have data on things people are really scared of. Are guns worse than.. you name it... disease??

[greymattermom]

9. Here are some data

Gun deaths surpass car deaths. Did you know that?http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/01/americas-top-killing-machine/384440/

[Duckhunter935]

19. that would not be correct

they can and do collect data. They are not allowed to advocate for either position.

[Thinkingabout]

29. This might be interesting reading for you

http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-07-02/quietly-congress-extends-ban-cdc-research-gun-violence

[beevul]

41. Discussed and dissected here.

Last edited Sat Jul 11, 2015, 02:07 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172170713

“Congressional prohibition, which was extended in this very vote that we’re talking about with that appropriations bill, prevents the CDC from advocating for any form of gun control,”

[Thinkingabout]

42. Poin taken, if deaths due to gun control should be looked into since we have large numbers of

deaths due to "lead" poisoning. Why would it be important to halt CDC from collection data on gun violence? What would be your solution to stopping death due to guns?

[beevul]

46. Say again?

Why would it be important to halt CDC from collection data on gun violence?

I don't see where the CDC is forbidden from collecting data.

I see only that they're banned from advocacy..

What would be your solution to stopping death due to guns?

My very first move, would be to attack suicides through suicide prevention and education. That would be a direct effort against 2/3 of the gun deaths nationally, and if done tactfully and sensibly, would have nobody opposing it.

My first move, would NOT be to pick a fight with a group of people that generally aren't causing gun deaths.

[Thinkingabout]

48. Do you know a lot about suicides? Stopping every suicide is not going to stop someone from going

into churches, theaters, schools, shopping centers and killing people. A person committing suicide is only harming their personal body, these shooters is not committing suicide. Maybe the first move is to stop the gun violence, those dying from these shootings did not pick a fight. I am not picking a fight I just want a solution. I did not start the mass shootings, find a way to stop this. I don't care if you have guns if you are capable of using the guns properly.

this may be of good reading to you:

http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-07-02/quietly-congress-extends-ban-cdc-research-gun-violence

[beevul]

49. I see my link didn't work originally.

That was discussed and dissected here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172170713

The conclusion was this:

“Congressional prohibition, which was extended in this very vote that we’re talking about with that appropriations bill, prevents the CDC from advocating for any form of gun control,”

Stopping every suicide is not going to stop someone from going into churches, theaters, schools, shopping centers and killing people.

Did I say it was?

Maybe the first move is to stop the gun violence, those dying from these shootings did not pick a fight.

Except that over 2/3 of them did. Over 2/3 of what are referred to as 'gun violence victims' choose to engage in it. You can't honestly discuss the issue without acknowledging that.

I did not start the mass shootings, find a way to stop this.

The 'this' that you want to stop, gun violence, isn't one monolithic force or event. It doesn't have a single solution, but it does have a glaringly large common denominator - suicides. Its nothing less than common sense to prioritize accordingly.

[yallerdawg]

8. Well, we do have our great American traditions and values.

We'd rather have 9 innocent people die in a church basement than impede the right of a psychopathic criminal racist to buy a gun.

[MoonRiver]

11. ^^^THIS^^^

[appal_jack]

12. This is not 'liberalism, it is 'authoritarianism."

Hillary's enthusiasm for new and expanded gun control laws is entirely consistent with her support for the PATRIOT Act, her failure to condemn the crackdown against Occupy Wall St., her own condemnation of Edward Snowden, her push for a militaristic and coup-supporting approach while serving as SoS. In all these cases, she supports power and privilege over rights for the people.

Very little about Hillary is 'liberal.' True liberalism is a spirit of inquiry, a questioning of authority, a faith in fundamental rights that are truly inalienable, and a commitment to enlightenment processes of open debate as a path toward higher truths. When has Hillary embodied these?

So of course she supports gun control.

Don't be surprised when Americans fail to rally to this particular authoritarian banner, despite its ostensible liberal label. Support for new gun control measures may be a mile wide according to certain cleverly-phrased polls, but it's never more than an inch deep. In 2016, people will be voting about the economy and other core issues. Guns are just red-meat media fodder, and Democrats would do best to say that they support enforcing the current laws and move on.

-app

[BooScout]

14. lol...that is one way to explain it away....

...it's not accurate, but good try.

[appal_jack]

24. Her liberal bona fides need work according to many sources:

Mother Jones: Clinton's Top Aides Have Lobbied for Companies Liberals Despise


http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/07/hillary-clinton-lobbyists-campaign-staff-keystone-lehman

-app

[Thinkingabout]

30. Have you got a better plan on curbing gun violence?

[Man of Distinction]

44. And this... "Top Comcast Lobbyist hosts a Hillary Clinton fundraiser"

Uh-huh.

This just confirms Clinton's "bona fides".

[Le Taz Hot]

21. Eloquently presented.

That was a pleasure to read. Thank you.

[Darb]

26. Good gawd how typical.

Pleasure to read? Wow. I like your pretend Bernie supporter pic too. I know what that is about.

[Le Taz Hot]

27. Derp

[Darb]

25. Full scale crock of conflated bullshit.

Weak sauce. Handguns and assault weapons designed for killing people in volume should be a royal pain in the ass to get, if at all.

As well as really large capacity mags, they should be banned. If not, relegated to your locker at the gun range.

[busterbrown]

28. Is this an Onion Piece?

Because it is rathe comical that you would go down this path..

2015 so far?

GUN VIOLENCE ARCHIVE 2015 TOLL OF GUN VIOLENCE
Total Number of Incidents 25,834
Number of Deaths1 6,641
Numb

[kath]

33. Well, now somebody can't hit "alert" for the next 24 hrs. Such a shame.

On Sat Jul 11, 2015, 11:27 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

This is not 'liberalism, it is 'authoritarianism."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=436990

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This bullshit does not belong on DU.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Jul 11, 2015, 11:35 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This is just a different point of view, we shouldnt censor people for different points of view. There are a number of Democrats who oppose strict gun control, they're part of our big tent
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The 'Alert' button is not a substitute for the 'Reply' button. DU is a discussion board, so discuss (or if not that, Ignore Poster, Trash Thread, or just pass on by to something more to your liking/interest).
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: She didn't support guns control in 08: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251437084

appal_jack could have included a link or two. Let the forum provide a rebuttal with links. Leave it.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Not a personal attack in any way; people have the right to express their opinions of the candidates (even if some don't "approve" of those opinions.)
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[kath]

34. Thank you, juror #5, for pointing out HRC's opportunistic flip-flopping on this issue since 2008.

oh, wait, it's not "flip-flopping", and just a coincidence that this issue is a perceived weakness of Bernie ---she has "evolved"

[Sheepshank]

43. So now we're back to evolving being a bad thing?

As stats and real community problems constantly show alarming trends everyone should sit on their hands? Immunizations should never have been mandated or implemented, airline safety features should be the same as 30 years ago. Car safety features and road rules and traffic signals should be the same as 40 years ago. ......really reacting to changes is a bad thing? Fuck that notion.

[appal_jack]

58. Thanks, Kath, for the behind-the-scenes look.

Thanks to all the members of the jury who parsed the difference between abusiveness (that definitely would merit a hide) and legitimate discussion, and voted accordingly.

For the alerter and anyone else who disagrees with me, I honestly believe that truly liberal societies thrive when all individual rights are guaranteed, while also collectively looking-out for common good matters such as a social safety net, environmental protection, etc. Safety from violence is indeed a common-good matter that government must protect. I just happen to think that further restrictions on the right of peaceable citizens to keep & bear arms will not enhance our safety; it would simply trample an individual right that a liberal society ought to respect.

Always happy to discuss this, and other issues of interest here at DU.



-app

[Android3.14]

13. Sounds like the HRC camp thinks that is Bernie's weakest spot

Unfortunately what she sees as a weak spot is actually reasonable gun controls while also protecting the Second Amendment. After all, the NRA hates Sanders as well.

If The Third Way Dems push for harsh restrictions or even outright bans, it will backfire at the ballot box.

[BooScout]

15. so in other words.....Hillary is too liberal onthis issue?

I'm shocked, shocked and flabbergasted. Who would have thunk that Hillary is too liberal, lol

[Android3.14]

16. More like too desperate

She is frantic to do something to shift the momentum back to her. Unfortunately the comparison of her gun control stance to Sander's is weak, at best.

If she were "too liberal", we'd be able to point to her TPP stance, Iraq War stance, Wall Street Controls stance etc, as examples. But she is far too authoritarian.

This is barely a paper tiger to rouse her base.

[BooScout]

17. keep the faith.....

Hope to see you voting for her next November!

[zentrum]

22. Yes, I suspect the same.

They see this as Bernie's vulnerability and want to position her to look more left than he is.

Since she's not taken a position on so many other pressing issues—it does seem more than likely that, as per calculations, she hopes to dispatch Bernie—and is oh, so ware of him—by finally taking a controversial position on something.

It's a "safe" stand to take——I think it has majority support.

[hughee99]

45. After much searching, the Clinton camp found an issue where Clinton

can believable be to the left of Sanders.

[betterdemsonly]

18. She is going to need a progressive congress, which no dlc President ever wanted

since they can't get free trade and social security privatization passed without divided government. Unfortunately a pro-freetrade pro-socialsecurity privatization congress will also hate gun control, of any kind. In my opinion this is something she has no intention of delivering on. She is counting on a republican congress to pass stuff liberals hate, and then blaming them when she doesn't get anything accomplished on her gun sentiments.

[Laser102]

20. This is welcome news. I don't care who takes on the NRA, I will support their efforts.

Children being gunned down in schools, people being gunned down in churches. What about the rights of people to live? You don't hear too much about that because its more important for the rabid gun nuts to have THEIR RIGHTS!! I'm sick of it. I live in a rural community where everyone and their mother has a weapon. The difference is the majority of them aren't insane. They believe in a three day wait until you can pick up the weapon you purchased. They believe in thorough background checks. What the hell is wrong with that? As for open carry, they laugh at these people and call them dumb asses. Never goes over too well.

[Thinkingabout]

31. Yes, agreed, Congress needs to get a backbone and find ways to curb the gun violence.

[Iliyah]

32. Toddlers and children getting a hold of guns and shooting themselves

or someone else accidently. If anything, safety needs to be taught to gun owners. Gun regulations, i.e. (1) for instant, background checks - a. mental illness; b. hate groups, etc.

I know these things are not 100% effective, but sh*t, lets try.

[Fred Sanders]

23. A no apologies, take no prisoners, no holds barred approach to gun control and the NRA is what is needed.

And if President Clinton can win almost all the electoral college votes....gun control can be done...remember that time long ago when nothing could take the Con. Flag down?

The Charleston Massacre taking a racist flag down is not near enough...not near.

Full stop.

[TeddyR]

35. That is exactly the way

To guarantee that the Democratic party becomes a permanent minority party. You'll lose the South, which is largely gone anyway, but Virginia and North Carolina will go with it, and Georgia is no longer remotely in play, and you'll lose the mountain states, which have just recently turned blue. Democrats can't win on the national stage with just California, Oregon, Washington and the Northeast. And what you propose will never get done in any event -- too many Democrats oppose draconian gun control, not to mention you'll never get Republicans on board. And there's the little problem of the Second Amendment.

[Fred Sanders]

36. There WAS the little problem of the Dixie Swastika....it must all come down, and will, desperate

NRA propaganda aside..... yet another NRA new poster, with the same old, tired pretend concern.

Since Democrats have apparently "lost the South" over the radioactivity of the Dixie Swastika, the NRA is the next target for some radioactivity.....why not bring their flag down also? What is there to lose?

The fallout from the Charleston massacre legacy is not yet done, but one can hope, am I right?

[TeddyR]

53. I find it interesting

That any viewpoint that doesn't support the immediate confiscation of firearms is "NRA propaganda" and that anyone who supports the Constitutional right to keep and bear arms -- which the Founding Fathers thought important enough to include in a bill of rights -- is a "NRA poster." With respect to the latter point, I have never belonged to the NRA and have no intention of ever supporting the NRA. They are now essentially an arm of the Republican party. And the Confederate flag should have been removed from state grounds decades ago, and it is good that it is finally coming down. People that supported that flag aren't going to vote for a Democrat, but there are a lot of voters (including something like 30% of Democrats) who are gun owners and will not support a candidate who wants to ban firearms or repeal the 2d Amendment (which is so extreme a position that I can't recall a single political candidate advocating for it).

[Fred Sanders]

56. The times they are a'changin'. Be scared, NRA, be very, very scared. You know what "scared is".

?w=600&h=595

[BooScout]

37. They said the same thing about the ACA

Didn't workout that way now did it?

[Fred Sanders]

38. Do the transparent NRA water carriers not realize how transparent they are?

[BooScout]

47. They think with their guns.....

Rather than their brains.

[Duckhunter935]

51. Ooooh, that is a good one

[BooScout]

54. it's time someone did it n/t

[Fred Sanders]

55. Turn it up and bring it down, Candidate Clinton:

[cherokeeprogressive]

39. "initiating a debate" Fucking comedy GOLD I tell ya.

As IF the debate hasn't been going on for fucking decades.

[riversedge]

50. Gun control waxes and

wanes. Even since Charleston--the issue has waned as the Confederate flag sucked all the air out of it.

[riversedge]

40. I am so glad she is bringing up this issue.

[calimary]

57. I am, too. SOMEBODY needs to.

I look forward to the day when we can turn this one around.

[onehandle]

52. The NRA will go they way of Confederate flags sooner or later. nt