Why would any liberal support Hillary over Bernie?

[ram2008]

No one has given a solid reason for choosing Hillary over Bernie. The only answer I get from Hillary is she has experience and has fought for women and children. Umm ok... but her record says she was on the wrong side of some of the most important issues of our time. Bernie was on the right side every time.

I'm against TPP and for Americas workers, Bernie was against TPP. Hillary helped draft it and wrote about how she supported it in her book.

I was against the Iraq War, so was Bernie. Hillary voted for it and was itching for a fight in Syria.

I'm against money in politics and corporate influence, so is Bernie. Hillary's top donors are banks, and she sits in closed door meetings with billionaires to fund her campaign. Bernie's is funded by the people.

I'm for same-sex marriage. Bernie was for it for decades, Hillary came around in 2013.

I'm against the surveillance state: the Patriot Act, needless spying by the NSA, etc. Bernie voted against the Patriot Act, Hillary for it. Bernie speaks out against the NSA, Hillary gave a wishy washy answer about there needing to be 'changes' to the NSA.

I'm for internet freedom. Bernie spoke out against SOPA and PIPA, Hillary defended and PUSHED for it.

I'm for transparency. Bernie passed several amendments increasing government transparency, while Hillary's state department was rated the least transparent, and somehow she thought it was ok to delete all her e-mails. Hillary also said Wikileaks "tears at the fabric of government"

I'm for decriminalization of Marijuana, Bernie is too. Hillary was against it in 2008 and now wants to 'wait and see' as she views it as a 'gateway drug.'

So time and time again, it is Bernie who has been putting his ass on the line fighting for liberal causes, while Hillary has been towing the line of the establishment. Why would any liberal support her over Bernie?

[LordGlenconner]

1. Where is Bernie on legalization?

Decriminalization was a nice concept 20-30 years ago, but it's old news. We need full legalization. I would presume Bernie would be in full support of that as most liberals, and some people of other political stripes, are.

And yes, I'm sure Hillary does not support legalization.

[DanTex]

2. Because she can beat the GOP in the general election.

[ram2008]

4. That was her 2008 argument against Obama n/t

[DanTex]

6. You asked, I answered. This is 2016, and there is no Obama.

[Man of Distinction]

18. No, there is no Obama, but there is Bernie.

And he will defeat her on the way to defeating the moron sacrificial lamb to become President of the United States.

[Voice for Peace]

81. But there is Donald Trump.

I'm looking forward to Bernie vs Donald.

[ronnykmarshall]

87. Oh Dan, Dan, Dan ...

You know that reply isn't good enough. Tsk Tsk Tsk.

[sabrina 1]

234. There is someone better than Obama. I supported Obama but

the support was based on his campaign promises, he had no real record for us to see, and when he voted for the FISA Amendment, that was a disappointment.

Bernie however has a long, long and very consistent record on all of the major issues, he is truthful, he is not afraid of questions which is a sign that someone has firm convictions.

The only difference in whether or not he can win, re Obama, Obama was supported by some major Corporations and Wall St donors. At that time, I didn't view that as all that important, I didn't exactly like it, but talked myself into thinking it would not affect his decisions.

Those donors clearly believed they could 'work with' Obama. They will do everything they can to stop Bernie from winning.

We've learned a lot more about the corrosive effect of money in politics. Obscene amounts of money will be spent to try to stop because he will represent the interests of the people first, and that is not why they donate all that money to political candidates. THAT is my only fear that anything could prevent him from winning this race.

[DanTex]

235. I was talking about electability, not policy.

And there's more than fear standing between Bernie and the presidency. There's the fact that only 48% of Americans would consider voting for a socialist. And the fact that Bernie will get outspent some 10-1 by the GOP attack machine.

[sabrina 1]

238. Electability? Then you should be more worried about Hillary. Bernie has been

elected repeatedly for over 4 decades. It's rather ludicrous to say that someone who has been elected as often as he has, first as Mayor of Burlington, then to Congress multiple time, and then to the Senate. I'm not seeing an electability problem at all.

Hillary otoh was not elected to anything until she ran for the Senate in NY. After which she ran and lost a bid for the WH. I would say that Bernie has had more success getting himself elected than Hillary at this point.

So now we have in one post, the two talking points that are supposed to be repeated over and over again in the hope that people will eventually buy them. They didn't work when they were first 'unveiled' so not sure why you are trying again.

And you are apparently not aware that the corrosive and corrupting influence of money in politics is now one of the major issues in this campaign, for the first time.

That means that those TAKING that money are going to be burdened for the first time with the task of explaining WHY they are accepting such bribes from very wealthy donors.

Bernie otoh, has the advantage of being the only candidate in the race who is not for sale. I guess you haven't seen any polls on how the public feels about this issue. But Bernie has. He's a smart man, he knows what the people want and what they are thinking. Seems to me that status quo candidates are very much out of touch with the people.

[DanTex]

239. I'm pretty confident that Hillary is much more electable.

All the data is on my side, yours is all speculation.

If you want to talk wealthy donors, start by explaining why Bernie chose two uber-rich businessmen to introduce him in his campaign kickoff speech. Who got rich selling ice cream to a nation with an obesity epidemic.

Oh, wait, Bernie's rich friend's don't count. Only Hillary's. Ben and Jerry are "the people" (who are worth upwards of $100M each, I mean, who isn't?). Friendly ice-cream guys from Vermont. But Hillary's are all corrupt bribers. Never mind.

[phantom power]

23. Seems to me like Sanders will have a harder time beating HRC than the GOP

The Republican candidates are all so weak.

[still_one]

34. Do NOT underestimate the GOP as weak. The did that with bush W. Also, the Koch brothers are

committing up to 1 billion dollars to defeat the Democrats, and that doesn't include money from Adelson, Home Depot ex CEOs etc.

That kind of money buys a lot of media

Thanks for nothing Supreme Court and Citizens United

[tavalon]

58. Yeah, and the general is likely to be Bush V Clinton

I'm one hundred percent behind Bernie Sanders until the GE, then I am behind the Democrat, whoever that might be. We misunderestimated another of the Bush spawn. Won't happen again.

[Jester Messiah]

191. At which point I write in E. Windsor.

Because if we're going back to hereditary dynasties I want one with staying power!

[erronis]

65. And a few millions to rig the voting.

Remember Rove's startled look when he realized that "the fix" wasn't in?

They're smarter and meaner this time.

[cascadiance]

77. And I think a lot more will join Anonymous if they try to rig the counting, etc. too

like what happened when Karl Rove was exposed in his "doubts" about results that didn't happen because their "doctorin'" didn't happen this time.

I think Anonymous would be working pretty heavily if Bernie were the candidate.

[madokie]

31. You don't know that

she didn't even get to that place the last time so how can you in your all high and mighty even make that statement. I'm not so sure money is going to get her there this time either, just like the last time.
Bernie Sanders will BE our next POTUS.
You know why because he's telling us what we need to hear and letting us know how he plans to get us there.
Make the rich and corporations start paying their fair share, no more off shore tax havens but you should already know all that if you've been paying attention. Hillary doesn't seem to see much of a problem with the way things are now, if you've been paying attention you'd know that too.

[DanTex]

38. Not for certain, no. But that's my best assessment of political reality.

And that's why I support HRC. Because I want a Dem to win the presidency in 2016.

[madokie]

40. The name is Bernie Sanders

not Hillary Clinton.
I honestly wanted to see a woman president and had high hopes of that becoming a reality but with the so call front runner being Hillary I'm not going to see that in my lifetime. Yes I'm sad and yes I'll vote for Hillary if she makes it to the general election but for the life of me I can't see that happening, not now, not ever. sorry

[zentrum]

62. Elizabeth Warren

….will run in 2020.

[madokie]

64. Hopefully I'll still be here to see that

That'll put me at 72 yo.

Oh how I so wanted her to throw her hat in the ring this time but I guess its not to be.

[zentrum]

85. I hope so too!

You deserve it!

[eggplant]

128. I would rather see her stay in the senate and become even more of a powerhouse.

The White House is important, but you have Congress as well if you want to get serious shit done. She's doing a fine job making her bones there.

[aggiesal]

153. Not if Bernie wins! n/t

[Voice for Peace]

86. I love your confidence re Bernie.

It seems perfectly possible to me that he will win the whole deal.

[Voice for Peace]

83. Bernie is taking his message into conservative strongholds.

Sadly for the Republicans, he will make sense to them.

[hifiguy]

113. What Bernie is saying is what

He has always fought and stood for. It is assuredly NOT platitudinous, focus-grouped, Goldman approved BS.

But I guess that doesn't impress some people. More fools them.

[peacebird]

101. I respectfully disagree. Bernie has Moderate R's as well as liberal progressives in his camp. His

appeal continues to grow.

[DanTex]

130. Fair enough. But that disagreement answers the OPs question.

Some liberals (e.g. me) don't think that Bernie can win the GE so they support Hillary. It's not because we secretly approve of the Iraq War.

[peacebird]

135. Understood, please know - we like different candidates, but ultimately are on the same side!

[DanTex]

137. I agree. We are all on the same side.

[peacebird]

140. Cheers!

[Adrahil]

198. We can't know until someone starts polling Bernie matchups.

But I seriously doubt your claim.

Meanwhile, every poll shows Hillary beating every GOP candidate.

[Beartracks]

104. This "reason" bugs me.

All things being equal, would you prefer Sanders or Clinton?

That is to say, on all the issue that matter to you, which candidate are you more in line with? If both had, in your mind, an equal chance at beating whichever Republican yahoo is nominated, for whom would you vote?

===============

[DanTex]

131. All things being equal, I prefer Sanders.

Unfortunately, all things are not equal.

[Caretha]

144. Oh Contraire

It might surprise you that the majority of American voters aren't bought, at least the voting ones.

[Man from Pickens]

109. Unlikely

If she gets the nod, she will be the most politically vulnerable major party candidate ever nominated.

And after her loss, in hindsight people will still be asking the question I'm asking now: doesn't anyone understand how insane it is for a candidate for elected office to refuse to face the press?

[hifiguy]

120. There is a veritable

ARMY of skeletons in the Clinton closet.

[kenfrequed]

148. It isn't the skeleton.

It is the way she fires up the Republican base while presenting a candidate that will end up being less exciting the more we see of her.

Her current strategy seems to be exercising absolute media control to reduce her vulnerability. This could get her the nomination but it will diminish her in the generals and won't inspire much down ticket because it stresses Hillary as a candidate over a strong and solid set of policies that Democrats can run on.

She isn't the best candidate but "electability" arguments are generally bull. But even if she was we should be running on policy not personality.

[dreamnightwind]

172. Completely agree

Hillary will energize the Republican base in opposition to her, more than she energizes the Democratic base to support her.

Personally, though I know many people who say they will reluctantly vote for her if she wins the primary, I know of none that are excited by her or that plan to work to get her elected. I'm sure others here know such people,, but my own circle, such as it is, is apathetic at best when it comes to Hillary. They would work their asses off for Bernie, though.

[Hoyt]

182. That's it, exactly. Sanders would just end up another "great 'populist' hope." I don't want it to

be that way, but today that's the way it is.

[Adrahil]

197. +1 nt

[drm604]

3. The best reason I've heard is that she's more likely to win the general

and, with all her faults, she's still a better choice than a Republican.

I'm supporting Bernie because I believe he also can win the general, but I do see the logic in their position. We need to convince them that Bernie can beat any of the Republican candidates. If we can do that, I think we'd win some over.

[DanTex]

7. For example, me. If I believed Bernie could win the GE, then I would support him.

But I just don't see it. Not for a self-declared socialist from Vermont who would get outspent 10-1 by the GOP attack machine.

[drm604]

12. One thing I've noticed is that some right-wing acquantances seem to like him.

I was speaking to one right-winger who hates Clinton and liberals in general but supports Sanders. I asked him why he would support someone who is to the left of Hillary. He denied vehemently that Sanders is to the left of her.

I've been trying to understand where he's coming from. I think it may be that many who consider themselves "conservative" actually aren't but have been brainwashed with a caricature of "liberals".

Bernie speaks his mind, says things that they like to hear, and seems to be concerned about their personal welfare, so they like him. Since they like him, their brain places him in a slot other than "liberal".

Maybe he's able to break through the stupid stereotypes that have been fed to people.

[DanTex]

21. I worry about him being able to get independents/moderates/swing voters.

In my experience, they reflexively try to position themselves between the two "sides" (regardless of what the sides actually stand for), and think of themselves as somehow smarter or more open-minded because of it. I think it will be easy for the GOP to scare these people away from someone like Sanders by calling him "socialist" and "radical" and so on.

I think that the policies that Sanders is advocating for could be popular with a lot of people (and polls show this also), but the problem is, from what I've seen, a lot of voters, especially swing voters, aren't really that interested in policy specifics.

[Voice for Peace]

91. people just need to listen to him ONCE and those socialist labels lose their meaning.

I've seen it. He just makes too much sense, and is too honest.
It shows and it's hard to resist.

[AgingAmerican]

165. Bernie will do best with independents

Most independent voters are people who left their party because their party left them. There are left wing independents and right-wing independents. There is no center in American politics. Hillary Clinton represents the status quo, which is exactly what scares off independent voters. Bernie Sanders would mop the floor with independents.

[John Poet]

216. There really are very few, TRUE indies/swing voters.

Most people actually lean hard to one side or the other,
regardless of what they try to call themselves.

[Qutzupalotl]

27. Sanders frames the economic and social debates in moral terms, which they like.

When he talks about raising taxes, he always says it's on the "super-rich" — not the average voter. Fine by them.

He answers questions directly, speaks his mind and tells the truth as he sees it. That's admirable.

The fact that he's not a Democrat by affiliation is a plus in their book. Independence in general appeals to conservative voters, if not Republican officeholders.

[tavalon]

60. The Primary is not the General

[Maedhros]

11. Yes - voting for the Lesser Good in the Primary,

just so we can vote for the Lesser Evil in the General.

[dreamnightwind]

174. Wow, concise and says it all, that's a keeper - eom

[dirtydickcheney]

17. There's just no way she'd do better in the general election.

Republicans have no reason to vote Republican-Lite when there's a real Republican to vote for.

Now Bernie offers something entirely different OTOH....

[Agschmid]

5. I would suggest they don't need to "give" a reason...

It is their vote, and their choice even if we disagree. If our system actually worked this would be an amazing aspect of it... But we know it's broken.

[SamKnause]

8. I can not answer that question.

It puzzles me as well.

The most infuriating posts start with; I like

Bernie, but I'm voting for Hillary.

I just do not understand their mindset.

The chance to elect an honest politician will not

arise again in the near future, if ever.

U.S. citizens need Bernie's 12 point plan.

[99th_Monkey]

9. .

.

[Thinkingabout]

10. Because I am liberal and I am supporting a liberal candidate Hillary Clinton.

Hillary has experience in foreign affairs which Bernie is lacking.

Hillary is for gun control, Bernie votes against gun control laws.

Hillary has been a long time advocate for Women's rights including equal pay and against violence against women.

Hillary is an advocate for children's rights, for better education and health care for children.

Hillary has been a strong advocate for healthcare.

Hillary wants to roll back Bush's tax cuts for corporations.

Hillary has been talking about wage disparity for years.

Hillary tried to get minimum wage increases tied to Congressional wage increases.

Hillary has been an advocate for Civil Rights while in college and still speaks out about these issues.

Hillary wants immigration reform, wants programs like Dreamers act to provide for education rights and agrees with President Obama on his EO on reform.

There are many more, yes, Hillary is liberal and she has lots of liberal supporters.

[ram2008]

13. "Talking, Advocate"

For things.

It's just not very specific. You did have a good reason point though, Hillary is more anti-gun that Bernie. If you are more to the left on gun control, I can see that as a valid discrepancy between the two and a reason to choose her over him, if you feel very strongly about it.

[Thinkingabout]

25. You ask the question why liberals supported Hillary and I provided some reasons why I support her.

Talking Advocate? I also read your post, did you list reasons why liberals should not vote Hillary, I gave a few reasons why we do support Hillary.

[ronnykmarshall]

90. This why I didn't reply ....

NOTHING is good enough for this person.

[Thinkingabout]

115. Yes I know, they ask a question but do not want an answer. Where do some people get their

Information we are not liberal. I was liberal before eligible to vote, I think I know what a liberal might be.

[freshwest]

162. There seems to be some joy over attracting conservative votes, but aren't liberal. So I pose this

question regarding who is more liberal, is it the one the conservatives hate or the one they like?

For me, this is disturbing to ponder. Are conservatives making such a choice because he is not a liberal, when most of his positions are very liberal?

Perhaps neither are liberal in the definition of many of us would apply. Saying he is able to enunciate views that appeal to them, while ignoring the overall thrust of the desires of conservatives, doesn't add up.

I can't see them as giving up their pro-life, anti-gay, anti-immigrant, anti-minority viewpoints 'just like that.'

Puzzling. Something's missing. I can't see the people who have been hating on other groups so much, as really endorsing BS for the presidency. Instead, I think they're messing with us.

[lunamagica]

180. It's not puzzling. They want Bernie to win the primaries so the Republicans don't have to face

Hillary in the GE

Of course they won't give up their anti-(women, minorities, gays, immigrants etc, etc) and it's absurd to think they have changed their values like that. I can't believe people are falling for this.

[freshwest]

184. I've read GOP websites that say exactly what you said... n/t

[bettyellen]

199. Yep- he's not the magic candidate who can talk about raising taxes and get away with it-

And he's certainly not the first who wanted to limit it to the wealthy either.
His "popularity" with conservatives- is either a myth or something to be concerned about rather than celebrating.
We do not share the same values. If he has to pander to conservatives he's screwed.

[mythology]

150. Advocating is most of what Bernie Sanders has too

He hasn't been especially effective at getting bills through the Senate or the House before that.

Of the 3 bills he sponsored that became law, 2 were about post office locations and 1 was about veterans cost of living adjustments.

The bills he's cosponored have been a bit better, but even of the 203, 68 are related to post office issues like can the post office sell a breast cancer awareness stamp, and some number are related to awarding Congressional gold medals.

Sanders hasn't been particularly effective at advancing his preferred policy positions. Yes you can point out that Republicans have held control of Congress for a solid amount of time, but at some point, you have to get things done.

[lunamagica]

30. +1 especially the immigration reform part

My number 1 issue. Gun control is very, very important to me, too

[daleanime]

41. ......

Any experience ending wars?

And of course Hillary believes in no middle ground on this issue?

And Bernie is against these issues?

And Bernie is against these issues?

Yes, she has. Corporate health care.

And Bernie doesn't?

We can't get Bernie to stop talking about it, he even tries to enact laws to do some thing about it.

Safe to say Bernie wants more then a starvation minimum wage.

Bernie has a record of support for Civil Rights from his college days until now.

Yes, Hillary is considered a liberal and she has a lot of liberal supporters. She also has a few supporters with quite a bit of money on their hands that don't mind investing that money in ways that encourage the government to continue funneling more money their way.

I would never knock anyone for supporting Hillary, she's had a long and varied career and has been the target for unnecessary ridicule and scorn for purely political purposes. But when her major strength this election cycle is the ability to spend over $! billion we need to do better.

[Thinkingabout]

44. Does Bernie have any experience on ending wars?

[daleanime]

45. Didn't want to start them.

But I guess that counts for nothing?

[Thinkingabout]

47. I don't like war either but sometimes the realization of needed action. I would bet if Israel was

Attacked he would be ready again for war.

[daleanime]

51. Are we down to hoping an ally gets attacked?

Bless you and have a good nights rest. Plenty of work to be done.

[Moonwalk]

72. Is that how you read what was written? I didn't. But why are you arguing?

Bernie has said he WON'T disparage Hilary. He understands what few of his supporters here seem to. If you disparage the other candidate, you don't win the support of their voters--nor of those on the fence who really, and I mean REALLY do NOT want to see democratic candidate trying to undermine each other or undermine each others' supporters.

Keep posting threads like this, keep arguing like this, and you just end up making Hiliary supporters double down and not reconsider their vote--you end up making them want to find things to dislike about your candidate. And you make undecided types like me turn away from Bernie not because of anything he has said or done, but becuase I really don't like what his supporters are doing.

Show respect for Hilary and her supporters, as Bernie wisely is, and there is every chance that they (and we undecided types) will show you the same and maybe reconsider their (our) view along the way.

[daleanime]

84. My apologies, but please tell me exactly what I said....

that was disparaging? If I'm to do better in the future it's necessary knowledge.

Is it real impossible for me to have a different opinion? Look forward to your reply, thank you for your time.

[Moonwalk]

175. Thinkingaboutit answered honestly a question about why a liberal would support Hilary....

...Excepting the comment on gun control laws, Thinking made almost no mention of Bernie in that initial list. You came back at this person with comments like "and Bernie doesn't?" However, just because Bernie shares some of these positions doesn't mean a liberal voter must support him instead of Hilary. Any more than YOU must support Hilary for what she shares with Bernie. In short, Thinking's original answer offered almost no argument on the "Why Hilary rather than Bernie?" question; rather it answered the "Why a liberal would support Hilary" question.

You didn't accept that answer, but instead started grilling Thinking on the "Why Hilary rather than Bernie?" In another thread, one that had started with THAT question, this might have read as a neutral debate, an exchange of opinions as you thought it was. However, the initial question essentially accused pro-Hilary voters of not being a true liberals. It insisted they prove their bonafides rather like someone proving they're a "real" American. Which meant that drawing this out with "and Bernie does not? And what about Hilary this? Or Hilary that?" made you appear to be grilling the person on whether they were a real liberal...not on whether Bernie/Hilary was the better candidate.

So. It's not about you having a contrary opinion and being allowed to state it. It's about liberals who share a lot of the same values attacking each other ("You're not a real liberal!&quot . You don't have to agree with a Hilary supporter's choice in order to agree with them that they are a liberal and, in the end, on the same side as you are when it comes to things like women's rights, etc. I was hoping some Bernie supporter would say as much. That it rubber-banded right into "And Bernie doesn't? Hilary this, and Hilary that, etc...." the second that a Hilary supporter answered the question was sadly predictable and disappointing.

[Mnpaul]

46. Gun control is authoritarian

not liberal

[Thinkingabout]

48. Oh really.

[Mnpaul]

57. Not hard to figure out

and Bernie's votes were against bills were questionable as to their constitutionality. One had to be modified, the other was ridiculous and would have been struck down quickly by the courts.

Liberalism is a political philosophy or worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality. The former principle is stressed in classical liberalism while the latter is more evident in social liberalism.[1] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but generally they support ideas and programs such as freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, free markets, civil rights, democratic societies, secular governments, and international cooperation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

Authoritarian
1. favoring complete obedience or subjection to authority as opposed to individual freedom:
authoritarian principles; authoritarian attitudes.

2. of or relating to a governmental or political system, principle, or practice in which individual freedom is held as completely subordinate to the power or authority of the state, centered either in one person or a small group that is not constitutionally accountable to the people.

3. exercising complete or almost complete control over the will of another or of others:
an authoritarian parent.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/authoritarian

[Thinkingabout]

119. Now I hear the choir preaching to the preacher. I am aware if what liberal is.

Been one for a few decades now and will remain. Sensible gun control is needed.

[Mnpaul]

121. Suing a manufacturer because an individual shoots someone with a gun

is not sensible gun control. It is authoritarian over reaction.

[Thinkingabout]

129. Let's agree to disagree. Every thing on gun issues is opposed by NRA.

[Mnpaul]

134. Maybe you should lose the preacher crap

it's more authoritarian nonsense. Some facts to back all your "preaching" might help as well. You always seem to run away when presented with them.

[Thinkingabout]

154. Hey, are practicing the authoritian crap and towards others what to do?

Colloquialism are sometimes difficult to understand.

[tavalon]

63. She is Third Way

I am so not interested in any more Third Way candidates. While I worry about Sanders being run over like Obama was, I think he will fight it more. And, hey, Lincoln had no executive experience and he did pretty well.

HRC is not liberal any more than her husband was.

[Thinkingabout]

200. The Third Way is a think tank, people getting together to find solutions for problems, they have

very good ideas but perhaps you should research the Third Way for yourself, it is quiet informative. I will stick with the Third Way since they are liberals and Democrats.

[tavalon]

207. I have researched it

it's Republican light. No thanks.

[AgingAmerican]

211. You are joking, right?

Their ideas suck and they are right wing Democrats, not liberals.

[LondonReign2]

240. The Third Way are neither Liberals nor Democrats

They are Republicans posing as Democrats, throwing out an occasional moderate social policy while strongly advocating for Republican economic policies.

[Thinkingabout]

243. No, look at their membership. I for one refuse to be renamed by others who wants to run this

talking point. Who would ever try to run a business without having a business plan? Who would want to run this country without a business plan?

[LondonReign2]

244. Truth isn't a talking point. Third Wayers explicitly promore Republican economic policies.

Dog Food Commission, privatizing social security, etc. Why do you think the Koch's funded the predecessor organization?

The mission of Third Wayers and their ilk is to continue to drive the Democratic party to the right. They have been so successful up to now that we have a President that openly describes his economic policies as mainstream 1980's Republican.

[Thinkingabout]

245. They have a business plan, something which is needed to an operation as large as the givernment.

They want to increase wages, they want to help healthcare, they want to protect Social Security, this is just a few, all Republican ideas huh

[LondonReign2]

246. What you laughably refer to as a business plan is a conglomeration of the

wet dreams of Republicans. The Orwellian phrase "Protect Social Security" is the plan to increase retirement age, cut benefits, and privatize accounts. Third Wayers are in perfect alignment with Republicans.

[Thinkingabout]

247. It is over, bye.

[LondonReign2]

248. I'm sorry, facts sting, don't they?

Perhaps it would be useful to actually understand what the Third Way policies entail before you espouse them?

[Rockyj]

195. Hillary is corporate owned who will promise us cake...

But will feed us crumbs just like Obama!
Along with economics are BIGGEST problem is Global Warming!
Earth is heading towards its 6th Extinction @ a rapid pace and both Hillary & Obama support oil drilling, coal & fracking!
Obama hasn't come out against Keystone XL & he's allowing Arctic Drilling for Pete Sakes!
NEO-LIBERALISM is destroying us!

[Thinkingabout]

201. Owned like Bernie is owned by NRA and listens to lobbyists from energy, tobacco and oil industries?

[corkhead]

202. I call bs on your "ownership" canard

Sanders scores F by NRA on pro-gun rights policies

Getting an "F" is ownership? nice try.

http://www.ontheissues.org/domestic/Bernie_Sanders_Gun_Control.htm

[Thinkingabout]

203. I used his voting record on gun issues, it is Bernie's voting record.

Here is the information on the lobby groups:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0210/Dem_senators_spent_weekend_with_bank_energy_tobacco_lobbyists.html

BTW I did not find this information in the link you provided.

[corkhead]

204. Something about stones and glass houses comes to mind when it comes to you talking about lobbyists

His voting record is very clear in regards to representing his constituents, not his donors. I see no reason to go tit for tat comparing voting records. I have already seen it done many times and won't get us anywhere. Both Sanders and Clinton made what could be called imperfect votes that had unfavorable components. Slicing them up and taking parts of them out of context is disingenuous to say the least.


Attacking someones strength was the swiftboat KKKarl Rove tactic that cost Kerry the election. I am surprised to see it being employed here, although it is getting more and more difficult to be surprised on DU these days.

[Thinkingabout]

205. Swift boat attacks was lies, you can not say Bernie's voting record is a lie. Also, Wall Street is

in NY of which Hillary was the senator. The Twin Towers was also in NY. When you post "Hillary is corporate owned who will promise us cake.. But will feed us crumbs just like Obama! "

Now if you say Bernie's voting record is in regards to representing his constituents then Hillary also was representing her constituents.

Attacks of Hillary is a corporate owned is another swift boat attack, why is this happening?

[Capn Sunshine]

212. Follow the $$$

This forum, this whole website, is full of compensated provocateurs and astroturfers whose sole purpose is to sow dissent among the rabble, by both outright lies and consistent ad hominem attacks. They think it is worthwhile to get people stirred up against their own party, and at its base DU exists to make money off clicks, so they remain ensconced. There's a huge machine that has been dedicated to bringing down the Clintons that has existed for years. If Bernie follows the same path that Howard Dean followed, and appears as an actual threat beyond the online world of websites such as DU, you'll see the guns turn towards him. Karl Rove is currently running a groups whose sole purpose is to attack Hillary from the left :

"Republicans believe they can use unsuspecting liberals to advance the right’s broader goals.

Groups like America Rising and American Crossroads believe, with good reason, that Hillary Clinton has plenty of critics and skeptics among liberal activists. For the right, the goal at this stage of the race is to exploit those divisions, drive a wedge into the progressive cause, and prevent the left from coalescing around the likely Democratic nominee."

Because they can.

[Thinkingabout]

219. Ifollowed the money. When Bernie was running against Peter Smith the NRA gave $18000 in ads against

Smith. The repayment has been Bernie's votes with the NRA on gun issues. Even Bernie knows he has a problem on gun issues. I am not driving a wedge in progressive issues, I am using Bernie's record, if this is driving a wedge in progressive issues then perhaps Bernie should have made better decisions.

[John Poet]

217. The NRA gives Bernie a "D minus" on their issues.

That's hardly "owned".

[LondonReign2]

241. NRA rates Bernie as an "F"

Jesus Christ, if you are going to criticize the guy you might at least attempt to get a few facts correct.

[Thinkingabout]

242. Did he vote against the Brady Bill? Yes, that rates him a F on gun control issues for me.

It only took $18,000 from the NRA against his opponent to get his vote. He failed.

[sadoldgirl]

14. That depends how you define liberal

After all, most HRC supporters claimed that they are
liberal for months and months now.

[Thinkingabout]

32. Defining liberal as being the same liberal voter for fifty years, this would make me a lifelong

Democrat and liberal.

[JaneyVee]

39. Who was the most liberal president ever?

Thank you in advance.

[hrmjustin]

15. I like Hillary more than Sanders.

I think she has a better shot at winning. Politics on the national level is a mixture of about balancing issues, likeability, electability, and political reality.

We all come to different conclusions but the important thing is we all syand united around our nominee.

[ronnykmarshall]

94. DUCK!!!!

You are now "of suspect".

[hrmjustin]

95. I read below a poster doesn't think we are real Democrats.

[ronnykmarshall]

99. Oh course we're not!

Didn't you get the memo?

[hrmjustin]

100. Comments like the one below is why DU feels like it is going downhill.

[marym625]

16. Same thing I've been saying

I truly don't get it

[AtomicKitten]

19. Beats me.

Her yea voted on the AUMF authorizing the invasion of Iraq wasn't liberal.

Her yea vote on the Patriot Act wasn't liberal.

Exponential increase in arms proliferation to dodgy countries under her purview at State wasn't liberal, the Clinton Foundation taking $$$ from those countries and arms manufacturers.

The TPP and Keystone pipeline aren't liberal but she promoted both at State while the Clinton Foundation took $$$ from their promoters

etc. etc., etc.

[Thinkingabout]

26. Then this makes Bernue's vote on AUMF not liberal also.

[ronnykmarshall]

102. Shhhhh!

Now quit!

[Thinkingabout]

116. Gotcha

[JaneyVee]

37. Who was the most liberal president ever?

Thank you in advance.

[trueblue2007]

54. What point are you trying to make for the 2nd time??? Okay, I give? You name the most liberal !!!!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. Twentieth century only

FDR
LBJ
HST
BHO
JFK

[kath]

20. Because they (and she) are not liberals, but Repub Lite.

My union organizer grandfathers roll in their graves at the thought that HRC and all her ThirdWay/DLC/DINO cohorts call themselves "Democrats"

[bvar22]

22. There are millions of prople who fought for the Working CLass and Organized LABOR...

...that are rolling in their graves....including Woody.
I'm rolling in MY grave, and I'm not even dead yet.

[Thinkingabout]

29. I have been a union organizer also, I am a liberal and despite a claim otherwise does not change the

Fact of who I am. Maybe it would be a surprise, Third Wayers are also Democrats and liberals.

[cui bono]

33. No, one thing Third Wayers are not is liberal. n/t

[hay rick]

88. Your post survived an alert, 0-7, LOL

On Thu Jul 9, 2015, 03:43 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Because they (and she) are not liberals, but Repub Lite.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=433950

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Broad-brush smear against a segment of DU members by calling them Repub Lite. Hillary may seem like Repub lite to some here, but smearing all her supporters with that label is insulting.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Jul 9, 2015, 03:51 PM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I disagree with the post, but it's not hide-worthy.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Poster expresses an opinion, and I don't hide them. If a disagree I answer it.
There can be no honest debate if opinions are forbiden.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Unless you are a member of Third Way, DLC, or "her...DINO cohort" the post is not directed at you. DU is a big tent and a number of posters can charitably be characterized as Repub Lite.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This is a ridiculous alert. Just this morning I saw Bernie Sanders' supporters approvingly called a circus act or something similar. It's primary season. Let it stand.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[ronnykmarshall]

98. Wow what a shocker ..

NOT

[sheshe2]

122. I am liking you. nt

[Bobbie Jo]

132. Mob rule is teh awesome!

[kath]

170. Thanks! Looks like someone won't be alerting for the next 16 hours or so.

[zeemike]

89. Jury results.

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Broad-brush smear against a segment of DU members by calling them Repub Lite. Hillary may seem like Repub lite to some here, but smearing all her supporters with that label is insulting.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Jul 9, 2015, 03:51 PM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I disagree with the post, but it's not hide-worthy.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Poster expresses an opinion, and I don't hide them. If a disagree I answer it.
There can be no honest debate if opinions are forbiden.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Unless you are a member of Third Way, DLC, or "her...DINO cohort" the post is not directed at you. DU is a big tent and a number of posters can charitably be characterized as Repub Lite.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This is a ridiculous alert. Just this morning I saw Bernie Sanders' supporters approvingly called a circus act or something similar. It's primary season. Let it stand.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[kath]

171. Thanks for posting that. I think the poster who was alerted on should always receive jury resultsand

The comments too, even when the alert doesn't result in a hide.

[hrmjustin]

92. .

[ronnykmarshall]

105. I know right?

So predictable.

[hrmjustin]

106. Typical.

[ronnykmarshall]

96. Who are "they"?

Thanks for info in advance.

[oberliner]

111. You are calling Clinton supporters Republicans?

Seriously?

[Doctor_J]

118. Quite true

They are conservative republicans who fell in love with Obama personally. Hate radio tells them that the president is liberal, even though he calls himself a republican. But the worshippers thus think that wars, the war on drugs, TPP, mandatory health insurance, charter schools, banks running amok, fracking, offshore drilling, wall street rule, and domestic spying are "liberal" traits. So they think they're liberal.

[Bobbie Jo]

139. What drivel.

Quite the theory, there.

They are conservative republicans who fell in love with Obama personally.

What?

[shenmue]

168. Wow, that is some hilarious shtick

When are you going to try stand-up?

[NanceGreggs]

183. Given the number of Democratic votes ...

... Obama got in both elections, you must believe that the vast majority of the Democratic Party are "conservative Republicans".

President Obama never called himself a Republican. What he said was that his economic policies were so mainstream, he'd be considered a moderate Republican in the 1980s:

"The truth of the matter is that my policies are so mainstream that if I had set the same policies that I had back in the 1980s, I would be considered a moderate Republican,"

That is (a) the truth, given the difference between the GOP then and now, and (b) hardly qualifies as one calling themselves a Republican.

What's that old saying about the truth being the first casualty? It sure is taking a beating around here nowadays.

[JI7]

173. that would mean most Democrats and large majority of all minorities, lgbt and women are repub lite

since they are all supporting hillary in huge numbers.

[hrmjustin]

210. That is ok Kath. I feel similarly about some of her detractors here.

Note to jury i said some.

[daleanime]

28. Pony?

And just in case.

[JaneyVee]

35. Good for you. I'm supporting whoever the Dem nominee is.

[Capn Sunshine]

213. and THAT is exactly Bernie Sanders position as well

FWIW. It's like the people here have never heard his stump speech.

[99Forever]

36. A very good question.

The only reason I have seen repeated, ad nausium, is that she the backing of the banksters and the warmongers, which somehow, supposedly makes her "electable." What a crock.

[demosincebirth]

42. If Bernie wins the nomination it will be a replay of 1972, and I will vote for him. What will

really hurt him is the Socialist label that he seems to carry around.

[fbc]

78. Not with voters under 50

Most of us don't view the term socialist negatively like those that grew up during the cold war.

[eridani]

187. You were obviously not around in 1972

That was the year that median family income peaked, and average working people were not dealing with 40 years of declining living standards. The culture wars were in full swing, and our side was nowhere near close to winning them.

Over the past 40 years, Republicans have redefined "socialism" to mean any public good that is not reserved for white people only. Obama's "socialist," Clinton's 1993 attempt at health care reform was "socialist," etc. There is no Soviet Union around to illustrate a really lousy enactment of socialism. It's not nearly as effective a snarl word as it once was.

[demosincebirth]

220. Sir/Madame, your assumption, in this case, is wrong. The first president I voted for was JFk,

I stand by the rest of my statement.

[eridani]

223. How did you ever manage to miss the culture wars?

Do you think that Sanders is going to be the candidate of acid, amnesty and abortion? Do you think that the implosion of the Soviet Union has no effect whatsoever on peoples' fear of "socialism"?

[demosincebirth]

224. either you didn't read my 1st post or you're assuming (again) what you think I said, which I didn't

[Maedhros]

43. I think it comes down to fear and hate, which are intertwined.

Their fear of, and hatred for, Republicans dominates their thinking. They have given up on the process, and believe that elections are nothing more than exercises in spending campaign funds.

To them, Hillary represents the "best" candidate because she has the most money, and therefore is most able to defeat the hated/feared Republicans. Policies are nigh irrelevant.

They have not thought this through: according to their logic, electing ever-more-conservative Democrats with ever-increasing campaign fund balances will somehow result in liberal government. The opposite is happening.

[hifiguy]

123. Boom.

[demosincebirth]

49. I'm a liberal and I support Clinton.

[ronnykmarshall]

97. Woop! Woop!

Same here. But I'm sure we will be told why we are NOT liberals.

[frazzled]

50. Insulting voters is not a good way to advocate for your candidate.

Bernie's greatest liability so far would seem to be his supporters. There are much more productive ways to work for your candidate. Such as working for him. And if you have ever been trained as an election worker, you would know that you never, EVER argue with someone who is not a supporter. It not only doesn't work, but drives people away.

PS: When I look at your list, I'd say you might be more of a leftish-libertarian than a liberal.

[KittyWampus]

52. why.would.a.Progressive.Democrat.support.Bernie.over.OMalley?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

152. Seriously?

probably the DLC slant, or maybe it has something to do with the 8 quintillion arrests he affected as mayor of Baltimore. In any case, he doesn't strike me as being too progressive. He does seem like an affable enough fellow though.

[KittyWampus]

193. Hes.progressive.Even.on.gun.control.which.Bernie.isnt

[frylock]

236. broken.windows.

[cantbeserious]

53. A Very Good Question - Why Would Any Democrat Support A DLC Third Way Corporatist

eom

[tavalon]

66. Because they are usually the only ones left in the General

That, and a Bush. Always those damn Bush spawn to worry about. At least Jeb Bush can string a sentence together but really, do I want a less amusing idiot in the WH? No, not really.

[jalan48]

55. Hillary isn't a liberal. She's a centrist, establishment candidate.

In the long line of centrist, establishment candidates including Humphrey, Mondale, Dukakis, Clinton and most recently Obama. Are these 'bad' candidates? Not at all, they are just not liberal, in the progressive sense of the word.

[heaven05]

56. good question nt

[realFedUp]

61. I am a liberal and old time DUer

Bernie's messages are ones we believe but he's like a kid with a Christmas list full of everything he can dream of to change things in this country. Hillary is the parent who knows what it takes to make the changes in Congress. He is all dreams and rainbows, but really look at the reality of Bernie being the parent of this country.

[Historic NY]

67. Because 72% of identified liberals support her......

and its sadly going to take a hill of money.

[FiveGoodMen]

69. 0% of liberals support her.

She's not liberal AT ALL.

If a poll says that 72% of liberals support her then...

A) They self-identify as liberals but are nothing of the sort in reality, or

b) The pollsters are lying

[Historic NY]

70. Prove it....

the polls have been consistent.

[FiveGoodMen]

75. If the word liberal has any meaning at all

then it means the sort of person who would never vote for what Hillary will do.

I don't care if they CALL themselves liberal. They're not.

There are GOPers posting on this site as though they were Democrats.

"You'll know them by their works."

[kjones]

124. That's a very authoritarian perspective on the definition of liberal....

[FiveGoodMen]

127. You do realize that if words have no fixed meaning, then no conversation is possible

Redefine 'liberal' until it means starting wars, siding with banks against people, off-shoring jobs ... until it means the opposite of what it used to...

Then people will use a different name for what used to be called liberal and you'll redefine that.

Eventually, no conversation about what used to be called liberal values will be possible.

And I think that's the plan.

[kjones]

143. Ah, but you're not fighting for the fixed definition

You're fighting to affix it to your needs at the moment.

There are politicians in the world more liberal than Bernie, does that
negate his liberalism? No, no more than that there are more
conservative politicians than Hillary negates any of her more
conservative positions.

I guess if you want to kick HRC supporters out of the "liberal" label...
well, I don't really know...the label was never that important to me
at least.

As to why someone would vote for HRC, personally, I think she's
good for the job. Frankly, whatever extra liberalism Bernie has would
go to waste anyway. Regardless of who is president, there's a limit on
what they can do, and how far they can shift the "needle" towards
liberalism. Sure, extra liberalism in a candidate is great, but I personally
feel whatever extra Bernie has is more than made up for in Hillary's
experience. And that's my determination at this point.

[okasha]

166. Circular "reasoning."

Liberals are supporting Hillary because the next several appointments to the Supreme Court must not be made by a Republican. Because she has the experience and negotiating skills to get legislation through Congress. Because foreign leaders already know and respect her because they've worked with her. Etc.

One other thing. Hillary's supporters know she can't walk on water and accept that. Going by some of the posts here, many Bernie supporters seem to think he can stroll across the Tidal Basin without getting his feet wet. Liberals want a competent President, not a savior.

[NanceGreggs]

138. Yes, yes, of course.

Any poll that shows Hillary to be the front-runner is skewed and doesn't reflect reality.

On the other hand, any poll that shows Bernie gaining supporters was apparently conducted in as fair and accurate a manner as possible, and should never be questioned.

Funny how that works, eh?

[oberliner]

145. This is ridiculous

Lots of liberals support her.

[JI7]

177. that means there are very few liberals in this country so how is sanders going to win ?

[FiveGoodMen]

68. No liberal ever would.

[ibegurpard]

71. fear

That Bernie can't win.

[RichVRichV]

108. Actually what I'm seeing is a lot of fear that he can win.

Which is why so many are spreading a false narrative that he can't. There's simply nothing else to go after him with that doesn't instantly get proven false.

Fear is literally all the moderates have left. I refuse to be ruled by fear.

[ibegurpard]

136. That's not coming from liberals though

It's coming from the third way conservadems

[frylock]

237. self-identified liberals, nonetheless

[kjones]

133. "There will be no Hillary supporters voting for Bernie"

"There will be no Hillary supporters voting for Bernie, if he wins the nomination they will vote for any R nutjob that runs or they'll stay home."

That's a pretty weak dig to try to paint HRC supporters as R's. I'm support HRC, I even support
Bernie. I'll vote for Hillary, but if Bernie (or anyone else for that matter) were to get the through the
primary, I'll vote for them. I don't think I've come across any HRC supporter posts that differ from that
opinion....then again, I've avoided this place lately, and I'm usually not a big board/blog person in any
event.

[kjones]

188. Well, to put it simply, you're operating with false assumptions

those being that Hillary supporters are all corporatists, aren't democrats,
are some kind of sell outs, whatever other labels and insults you need to
throw in there.
In any event, I see a ton of Hillary supporters (online and in person) who
explicitly state that the would vote for Bernie if he got the nomination.
Now, I didn't want to say anything because I'm usually not a turnabout
kind of guy, but the only people I can recall who have proclaimed they would
"stay home" or some such were Bernie supporters.

It's almost like some Bernie supporters are projecting, assuming that Hillary
supporters don't like Bernie at all. I'm sure some people don't, but overall,
that's just not true. The animosity seems to go mostly one way (well, until
someone smears someone as a corporatist sell out. Still waiting for "Shillary"
signs).

[ibewlu606]

74. Rec'd

No REAL liberal or Dem would, but unfortunately there are very who are duped into thinking she is different from Republican Wall St. whores. And I used to think Teabaggers were willfully ignorant.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

79. They believe Hillary has a better chance of getting liberal policies passed...

If the damn liberals will just get the hell out of the way.

[99Forever]

93. I see what you did there!

[kath]

125. Brilliant!

[Doctor_J]

158. yes, we have to nominate a conservative so we can win and pass liberal laws

Such is the logic of the BOG/HRC

[Spitfire of ATJ]

159. Of course! You can't risk conservative criticism!

They're much too powerful!

We must join Sauron.

It would be wise, my friend.

[fbc]

80. good post

[DrBulldog]

82. And how could ANY knowledgeable progressive vote for anyone who ...

... spent last summer earning over $1.5 million for delivering speeches on behalf of the Canadian petroleum and pharma industry?

That is INCREDIBLE!!!

[cui bono]

103. I don't get it either.

And I don't get the HRC supporters who want to divide Dems on a racial issue they are intent on fabricating when their candidate totally got down and dirty with race in the 2008 primaries.

[hifiguy]

107. Beats the living bejesus out of me

We've had five consecutive corporatist presidents. Tell me again how that has worked out fer yez. Why support more of the same old tired corporatist shit again?

[NorthCarolina]

110. The differences are astounding, and the choice

is obvious. I'm voting Bernie.

[stevenleser]

112. She's not promising things she can't deliver. And with a Republican House until Jan 2023 at least

due to redistricting, anything transformative from a progressive standpoint cannot be delivered until the next President elected in 2024. If we are lucky, and we elect Democratic state representative majorities in a bunch more states, we can control redistricting after 2020 and win both houses in the November 2022 election. Even that might be wishful thinking since Democrats do not do well in midterm elections with an incumbent Democratic President as we have seen twice with President Obama.

But the President we elect in 2016, if we are lucky that it is a Democrat, and we are lucky enough to re-elect them, will be in the lame duck portion of their second term starting in 2023 so even if we get a completely Democratic congress, unless we have a filibuster proof majority in the senate, they will not have enough juice to get a whole lot done then either.

So all of this stuff that Sanders is talking about is stuff he can't deliver and he knows it, he mentioned in one of the last things he talked about that it would be "difficult getting it through the Republican congress", ya, difficult. Boehner and the Republican House will stop everything.

The next 8 years are about keeping the Republicans from electing a President who would roll a bunch of stuff back and nominate conservative justices. But we arent getting much of anything in the way of juicy policy changes.

Given that, the entire effort for Sanders is a colossal waste of time, and a risk totally not worth taking to take down the strong candidate that we have.

[lunamagica]

157. I hope that thise who "don't get it" and say "beats me" read this post

This is a great explanation. I think it's worth making it a new thread.

[COLGATE4]

227. ^^^^ THIS ^^^^

[Doctor_J]

114. No idea

tht will remain a mystery as the country under president Hillary continues its slide to 3rd world status. But we'll still have abortion rights!!

[DCBob]

117. Because she can beat the Republicans..

Bernie.. Im not so sure.

[morningfog]

164. What makes you so sure she can?

[DCBob]

189. Several reasons..

-- She is smart and experienced
-- She will have a huge campaign fund to work with
-- She has an experienced campaign team
-- She is one of most qualified candidates ever to run for office
-- She has huge name recognition
-- She has Bill
-- She is a woman
-- She is a Democrat and NOT a socialist

.. and she leads in almost every poll I have seen against the probably GOP nominees.

Frankly I am amazed any Democrat would not be supporting her.. it's like snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

[still_one]

126. So are you saying anyone who supports Hillary can't be a liberal?

[HooptieWagon]

146. They would certainly be inconsistant.

Hillary is a puppet of Wall St, which isn't liberal.
Hillary supports TPP and other trade agreements, which isn't liberal.
Hillary is for corporate profit-based healthcare, not single-payer like Bernie.
Hillary's solution to every foreign crisis is war, that's not liberal.
She looks to Henry Kissinger for guidance and friendship. He is a neo-fascist hated by every liberal for the past 45 years.
Hillary supports the Keystone XL pipeline and fracking, which aren't liberal positions.
Hillary was a founding member of the DLC, which was funded by the Koch Bros. The Kochs are closer to Fascists than They are to Republicans. Def not liberal company she's keeping. And there's the neo-fascist Family she prayed with weekly and spoke highly of in her book.
Hillary supports using cluster bombs on civilian populations. Not very liberal.
Hillary is a bit to the right of Barack Obama, who calls himself an 80s Republican. She's far to the right of Dwight Eisenhower. As far as I'm concerned Hillary is a moderate Republican.

[still_one]

160. Good points

[Kammer]

141. He can't win a general

I love Bernie, but he can't win a general election.

The Republican candidate will get 47% of the vote, the Democratic candidate will get 47% of the vote.

The remaining 6% will decide the election. They aren't on this board and won't vote for a registered Socialist.

The disastrous result of a Republican win keeps me squarely in Clinton's corner with my money, time and vote.

That's why.

[kelliekat44]

142. I like Bernie and would certainly vote for him if he wins the primary. I still favor HRC.

Lessons learned is her strength. Also, I fear the RW is just waiting for the critical time to begin to label Bernie as a dreaded "socialist." Remember all the negative jabs from the GOP base on Obama being a "socialist." This was just the RW thin line from "communist." It has worked for them in the past and will be their rallying cry if it looks like Bernie will win the primary. That tag won't stick to HRC...even we here bemoan that. Then there is the women's vote. Even though many of us love Bernie this is HRC's strong "hole card." If she sound enough like Bernie around the economic issues, this will give her the edge, I think. But then that vote for the Iraq invasion will always come back to haunt her.
For sure, Bernie speaks to all the issues in ways we (liberals, progressives) like. And that may be what works against him in the end given the American electorate of the last two elections.

[smiley]

147. I think it comes down to competitiveness

Of course I'm sure there are those who do agree with her policy positions, but mostly I think it comes down to that people hate to lose. So they're going with what they see as a sure thing. As soon as Bernie can show that he has the power to pull votes from both parties, then more people will switch sides from Hillary to Bernie.

He showed that to me a long time ago. Hillary, I've never quite trusted, so I do find it troubling to see how so many do support her. I will if I have to.... I guess.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

149. Most liberals will not support her over Sanders.

It's all about how one defines "liberal".

[wildeyed]

151. They're all just politicians.

Doesn't matter what they are "for", only matters what they get passed. Also, I don't think he is electable in the General and all I really care about right now is getting the next few Supreme Court picks. Gimme a break, you think a single politician being funded by "the people" is going to stop the money flooding into the political system? Do you understand how the system works?

Also, just FYI, accusing people of being "bad liberals" if they disagree with you is not going to persuade them to your cause. I was open to learning more about Sanders, but after reading your thread and feeling attacked for my views, I feel hardened in my support of Hillary. Good work!

[Inkfreak]

155. Some want the "sure win" over actual liberal ideas. (nt)

[Maedhros]

178. They're not playing to win, they're playing not to lose.

That's always a horrible strategy.

[LuvLoogie]

161. I am voting for Hillary because

she reminds me of Shirley Jones. And I used to have a crush on Shirley Jones when I was a kid.

Bernie doesn't remind me of anyone I used to have a crush on.

[BainsBane]

163. Many reasons

First to some of your claims. Clinton's top donors are not banks. That is a blatantly false allegation, oft repeated. Corporations are not allowed to make contributions to candidates. Full stop. They do donate to PACS, but the open secrets site that claims banks as her top donors reveals internally contradictory data. Under the tab for top industries supporting her, they list lawyers first, educators and women's groups, with finance down the list. Why then are those industries not indicated under top donors? Clearly data has been selected in ways that communicate a certain distorted view.

I care about the issue of money in politics. That issue is not about one individual vs. another. It is systemic and pervades throughout all of politics. Clinton wants to overturn Citizens United, just as Sanders does. Sanders says he won't take money from super pacs, yet Bet on Bernie 2016 is a super pac formed to promote him. A Pac run by one of his key campaign managers failed to submit the legal paperwork for the deadline two weeks ago. He is not pure on the issue, but of course no one is because the system is rotten to the core. To pretend that is all about Clinton deliberately eschews the issue. And the fact is campaign finance law is in the hands of SCOTUS, not an individual president.

Where was Clinton's state department rated the least transparent? By whom? You make allegation after allegation with no evidence. Just because you repeat stuff posted on the internet by the GOP doesn't make it true.
In regard to transparency, she has argued we need to do away with the role of dark money in politics.

Here are some reasons I support Clinton: Competence and ability. You want a president who agrees with you on issues and seem to pay absolutely not attention to how those views would be translated into policy or law. I don't go to the voting booth looking for a mirror to reflect myself. I vote based on who I think is best qualified for the position. Clinton's experience as a senator where she worked across the isle--something that disqualifies her in the minds of people who prefer government not function--and her experience as SOS make her well qualified. She has tangled with Republicans more than most and knows how to deal with them.

For all his views, Sanders has no legislative accomplishments to show for decades in congress. He got two post offices named. I don't care about post offices being named. That doesn't do anything for me. Nor am I looking for a president to validate my anger rather than enact policy that has real impact on people's lives.

Marriage equality is already the law of the land. What does it matter who came out first for it? It isn't even a future policy issue. This again speaks to the idea that you are looking for someone who reflects your views more than the capacity to implement policies. I don't expect politicians to reflect my views, and I have never seen one that does. Moreover, views mean nothing without the capacity to turn them into actual policy, law. Nothing in Sanders background indicates he has that ability. Clinton also enjoys considerable support from the LGBT community. If most of them are cool with her, why should I object?


On the issues I care about most, Clinton is strongest: gun control, women's rights, and racial equality.

Sanders is bad on gun control. He voted for legal immunity for gun corporations, and he continues to defend that vote as right, even though it put the profits of gun companies over the lives of Americans killed from gun violence. I find that unacceptable.

Clinton has promoted women's rights, reproductive rights and campaigns against violence against women, throughout her entire career in public life. As SOS, she directed attention to human trafficking, modern day-slavery. She also listens to voters, to key Democratic constituencies.

Sanders has a economic message that has merit, but it is not comprehensive, though he and his supporters believe it to be universal. It is most relevant to the white upper-middle and middle class. He speaks to the frustration they feel from seeing a recent decline in their economic standing. Many of us never enjoyed the economic security in America of old. We have always been marginalized. I don't like the fact that he tells firefighters we can "agree to disagree" on reproductive rights--my basic civil rights--but what really matters is their children's education. I don't dispute the importance of their children's education, but I will not support someone who treats my rights as an after thought. If Clinton has the courage to stand up for women's reproductive freedom before GOP Senators, Sanders should be able to stand up for women's civil rights before a group of firefighters.

Sanders also thinks his economic message should be enough to address the concerns of African Americans, as he said in a recent statement published in conjunction with a comment about a potential apology for slavery. Racism is not simply about poverty. It has a dynamic all it's own that cannot be solved through economic means, though that is not to say that economic opportunity is not crucially important. It absolutely is. It isn't, however, everything. All Americans lives are not the same, and to treat them as they are shows a fundamental misunderstanding of American society. I think his worldview is shaped by his age and having lived so long in VT, which is far more homogeneous than most of the country. He hasn't had to speak to diverse constituencies and doesn't seem to want to. This again gets to the issue of listening. Clinton has been meeting with small groups of voters to LISTEN to their concerns, to learn what people care about and want from government. Sanders tells us what we should want and need. That has resonance for many on this site, but not for me.

Also the fact Sanders hasn't been and isn't a Democrat is a concern for me because it shows an unwillingness to engage in the kind of compromise necessary to govern. I understand many here see compromise as a bad thing, but a president's responsibility is to represent the US as a whole, not just a small subset of voters. That requires being able to work with their elected representatives of different parties. Not only has Sanders not worked with the GOP in passing major legislation, he hasn't even wanted to join the Democratic Party.

Then there is the fact I don't like the elitist politics of exclusion that has emerged among Sanders supporters. I've addressed this already in an OP and won't do it again. That, however, dovetails with another point. You don't need to understand why liberals/leftist/progressives/Democrats/or anyone else votes differently from you. You get one vote as a citizen, the same as mine. What you think about how I or anyone else votes is inconsequential. My vote isn't subject to your approval, no more than yours is subject to mine.

[okasha]

167. Preach it, Sister!

[shenmue]

169. Yes! Sing it!

[ismnotwasm]

179. Bam!!

I was going to stay out of this mess--but you nailed it here

[lunamagica]

181. Bravo!!!

[LuvLoogie]

185. That was a mind and soul soothing post.

Thanks.

[kjones]

226. *crickets*

Guess they don't like hard targets.

Anyway, that's quite level-headed. I think in the past couple
days, I've become satisfied enough to change my profile picture...
even around here.

[BainsBane]

228. Good for you!

I get a lot of crickets to my posts lately.

[kjones]

232. Don't think of it as being ignored

Think of it as having left them speechless.

[Thinkingabout]

176. I guess the real question should be why would a Democrat (Liberal) be supporting Bernie over Hillary

There are other candidates declared like O'Malley, Webb and Chaffee who are all Democrat along with Hillary. We have candidates.

[LeftOfWest]

186. Money. 1%ers. They want theirs.

Always.




ALWAYS.

[davidpdx]

218. Which is exactly why I have lost faith in the one person one vote system

When candidates like Clinton (and most of the GOP candidates) can raise vast amounts of money to fund their campaigns I have to wonder what they owe these people if they are elected.

[arely staircase]

190. because she will be an awesome president. nt

[raouldukelives]

192. I generally find money is a fairly large factor for some reason.

As usual, one of the candidates will be considered a safer bet for happy days for corporations and those who will gain and one who stands for living in reality.

Reality, as we well know, is a bummer. Especially these days. Has there ever been a time when the bummers were larger? Not in my small mind.

I mean, just the knowledge alone that everyday we are one the same trajectory equals ever hastening extinction for virtually every species on earth (and yes that includes cuddly kitties and puppy dogs as well as salamanders, slugs and slithery snakes) including quite possibly ourselves. I mean, come on. Heavy brah.

Has there ever been a time when more money was spent ignoring bummers and creating a false reality for one class over all others?

Slave away for corporate desires all day in exchange for lots of lovely money, flick on the local Fox affiliate and see all the news they feel you need to know, watch a squirrel water ski, catch up on Netflix or read a Book of the Month selection, rinse, lather, repeat.

And then those same people will wonder why things don't get better?

Perhaps not until the Grim Reaper himself raps upon the door will anything sharp enough cut through the imaginary world they dwell in and let them fully realize the scope of their works.

[Progressive dog]

194. Hillary can win the general election

while Bernie can't.

[Le Taz Hot]

196. Answer: Liberals don't.

Blind Party Loyalists do. All that is required is to have a "D" next to their name and the Party Faithful will vote for them. No policy issues required, just a "D." Pretty sweet deal if you ask me.

[Hepburn]

206. OK...I live in the liberal state of California

Most of my pals are liberals...and they support Bernie because he is closer to their beliefs, gripes, feelings, agendas, desires, most important issues, etc.

I am finding, tho, that Repubs, especially baby-boomer ones not of the 1%, are on the Bernie bandwagon.

Why the support for Bernie from all political persuasions I have encountered? I have found various issues upon which he appeals to different persons. Examples are higher education, banks too big to fail, voted against the Iraqi invasion, but...the biggest over-all reason?

Answer: He is one of us.

[Herman4747]

208. --> BECAUSE SHE CAN WIN <--

The last 3 times the Democratic nominee was a liberal from New England, the guy got less than 50% of the vote.
For some reason or other, the Bernie fans think that Independents (a NOTEWORTHY part of the electorate) will wind up flocking toward someone not in the middle but to the left of Hillary, thereby giving Bernie victory next year. Alas, I don't agree.
A Democratic President seems to do not a whole lot of good, BUT A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT CAN DO A SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT OF DAMAGE.
And so this liberal wants Hillary to be the nominee.

[HFRN]

209. Bernie tried to stop H-1b visa abuse, Hillary pushed for more H-1b visas

introduced bill to stop abuse

Bernie co-sponsored anti H-1b visa abuse amendment to TARP (which passed)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251430600

Hillary pushed for more H-1b visas

[McCamy Taylor]

214. Getting tired of being told what this liberal can do and whom she can support.

[Recursion]

215. Why does a liberal have to be reminded different people think differently?

Personally, I think she's more likely to win the general and has more realistically achievable policy goals.

I also don't look at a Presidential nomination as a personal therapy session.

And, for that matter, I haven't decided who I'm voting for yet in the primary.

[The Second Stone]

221. Liberalism and socialism are very different things

and I am not a socialist. I'm a liberal. Clinton is a liberal, Sanders is a socialist. A socialist generally supports the government controlling the means of production. I don't support that, and I'm against it except in a case by case basis, such as the post office, police and fire services and health care.

Does that clearly explain why a liberal might not vote socialist? Sanders is a good man with good intentions, but should he become President, he will have not a single member of congress openly identifying as a socialist.

[PowerToThePeople]

222. They wouldn't. n/t

[LWolf]

225. Neo-liberals support her.

The co-opting of the terms "liberal" and "progressive" by neo-liberals make it easy to claim "liberal" support.

That's why I started self-identifying as "leftist," even though, globally speaking, I'm not that far left. I am, though, in the U.S., the "fringe" left.

All that said, liberals without the neo must have imbibed some kool-aid to support her.

In my opinion.

[AgingAmerican]

229. The main reason we hear is 'he can't win'

Other than that excuse many of them admit he is better in every category and on every issue.

[brooklynite]

231. If it's just an "excuse", explain clearly how he campaigns and wins a national election.

[AgingAmerican]

233. It's a generic excuse

Rooted in wishful thinking.

[WDIM]

230. That was a great break down showing how far right

Hillary really is.

If Hillary becomes president it will be more of the same. The great bankster wall street crime spree will continue, the war against american citizens pursuing their own freedom will continue, divisive and corrupt government policies that benefit only the 1% will continue. She has shown us over and over her loyalty is to the war profiteers and the banksters.