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UCmeNdc

(9,600 posts)
Sun Jun 14, 2015, 12:33 PM Jun 2015

Chris Christie slams Bernie Sanders’ debt-free college: Let kids ‘earn' education

Chris Christie slams Bernie Sanders’ debt-free college: Let ‘market forces’ set tuition so kids ‘earn’ education



During an interview with Christie on ABC’s This Week, host George Stephanopoulos noted Democratic candidate Bernie Sanders had called to tax wall street speculation in order to eliminate college tuition.

“What’s your alternative?” the host asked the New Jersey governor.

“My alternative is we have to start to put market forces on these college costs,” Christie replied. “I pay for two college tuitions right now, one at Princeton and one at Notre Dame. And I can tell you that they’re the most opaque bills you’ll ever see in your life.”



http://www.rawstory.com/2015/06/chris-christie-slams-bernie-sanders-debt-free-college-let-market-forces-set-tuition-so-kids-earn-education/

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Chris Christie slams Bernie Sanders’ debt-free college: Let kids ‘earn' education (Original Post) UCmeNdc Jun 2015 OP
Market forces? He needs to pull his head out of his ass. MADem Jun 2015 #1
The "1st year on campus" is relatively recent at a lot of schools. Igel Jun 2015 #4
I went to public schools that were free for part of my education, and I didn't think they were MADem Jun 2015 #5
He should let his kids earn azmom Jun 2015 #2
The most opaque bills? thesquanderer Jun 2015 #3

MADem

(135,425 posts)
1. Market forces? He needs to pull his head out of his ass.
Sun Jun 14, 2015, 12:55 PM
Jun 2015

Tuitions are absurd. Lots of schools demand that their students live on campus, for the freshman year anyway, to get the "full college experience" (and give a hefty contribution to the school coffers).

Obama proposed free community college/post secondary voke training during the last SOTU. The Republicans sat on their hands. So long as Congress is run by the GOP, that "good idea" to increase college attendance and make it more like secondary school ain't happening. It's a shame--more education is better than less.

Igel

(35,300 posts)
4. The "1st year on campus" is relatively recent at a lot of schools.
Sun Jun 14, 2015, 01:42 PM
Jun 2015

And, sadly, it's research based. If you're a student and live at home you have a higher drop-out rate: Life and school don't mix well, and you wind up doing social activities, family activities, job to support the family, baby-sitting ... All of which reduces your GPA. If you're from out of town and get an apartment the school isn't in loco parentis and it's harder for a lot of kids with new freedoms to impose self-discipline. Again, lower GPA. Lower GPA = higher drop-out rate.

Either way, you're farther away from resources like libraries (no, not everything is on line), tutorials, being part of the campus community, and have commute costs and possibly meal-prep issues.

I dislike both Christie and Sanders on this. Making everything transparent at a school would be insane: I use chem labs and the science library, somebody else doesn't. As a first year I get lots of large lectures + TAs. Then I cycle through a wave of adjuncts for electives and new sections that were opened. Later I get a lot of exposure to tenured faculty, some good and some bad. Immediately there's pressure to customize each tuition bill, then there's pressure to avoid some majors or classes to save money. That points in entirely the wrong direction.

Free education becomes a right, and one of the hideous things about public school education is that it is a "right"--but that requires a bit of explanation. Now, it's one thing to say a student has a right to access and equal opportunity to an education. It's another thing to come along and place the "access" not on just making it available, but on making sure the student actually learns. As a teacher I deny their rights by not forcing them to do their homework, study for tests, learn. Suddenly the focus isn't on teaching but on teaching those who don't learn. I'm responsible when a kid works as many hours as possible to buy car insurance and pay his car note and fails. "If a student fails, it's really the teacher's who's failed the student." The student isn't responsible; the parents aren't responsible. It all funnels down to the failure to guarantee not a right, but the full use of a right.

It's like I'm responsible for the quality of a hamburger. The student is made into a lump of ground meat that I have no control over, but I'm still responsible for the hamburger. Now, imagine that everybody has a right to hamburgers. Will hamburgers be appreciated any more or any less? If I fail to provide adequate quality hamburgers, will that matter? What's free is often taken to be without value. A number of kids have come back and said that they regret not having paid attention and learned in class--now they're paying for the same "stuff" I tried to teach them, and it's going to take them a semester or two longer to graduate. Teaching college, teaching private school, one tool to get some kids to listen up is, "You're paying $20k to be here. You really should try to pay attention." And at private high school if the kid doesn't do his work or screw up, a quick email home works--mommy and daddy are paying for this, and their child *will* buck up, not fuck up.

If I want another parallel, it's like saying my Congressfolk are responsible for my not maximizing my use of freedom of religion and free speech, for not bearing an arm and taking advantage of my 2nd amendment rights, for not voting.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
5. I went to public schools that were free for part of my education, and I didn't think they were
Sun Jun 14, 2015, 02:18 PM
Jun 2015

without value. I got a very rigorous education coming up, but this was back in the dark ages, and some of it was abroad.

Of course, they could beat us if we misbehaved (and they did), we had to do maths in fountain pen (it taught attention to detail, apparently) and kids with "special needs" were pretty well screwed. No one "taught to the test," the teacher just taught us the subject we needed to learn, and the only test we took was the one that he (sometimes she) invented to make sure we learned the material. Often, we'd be required to write an essay, using the same damned fountain pen (more attention to detail, there), which would test not only our retention of the material but also give the professor an idea as to whether or not we were taking his grammar lessons onboard. Value Added Bonus: It provided an opportunity to critique our handwriting skills, as well--farewell, elusive cursive!

Parents don't want anyone else disciplining their kids, so the teachers have given up nowadays. They let the parents do it, and they use other tricks to lean on the parents (like the tuition trick, or the "Fauntleroy will be held back/need an aide to remove him from the classroom because he's disruptive" scheme) to make THEM be the enforcers. That makes enforcement less consistent.

As for children not being prepared for the real world, cooking, cleaning, paying bills, etc., that's because no one teaches them how to do that. Instead of learning those skills in college, that gets kicked down the road another four or five years as the kids enjoy the "luxury apartment" living of college life in many locales. Every one of my siblings and I knew how to cook a meal, use a washing machine appropriately to do laundry (no pink drawers owing to a misplaced red shirt), write a check, pay a bill, operate an iron (those were more popular back in the dark ages) and a vacuum cleaner, drive a car, check the oil and change a tire.


This started very early--as a kid, one was responsible for ones room, then with age, came "chores," where many of the other household skills were learned, and in the teen years, if parents didn't teach you how to cook and change a tire, "home economics" and "shop class" did. Oh--and earning money--everything from child care to stocking shelves to flipping burgers, scooping ice cream, busing tables to waiting on them; whatever it took to get a few bucks in the bank...but nowadays, those "kid" jobs are filled by adults who really need the money because the minimum wage has gone to shit and hasn't kept up with the real world.

These were basic things--you didn't feel like a junior adult if you didn't have these talents; now the default is to have the Merry Maids clean the campus apartment, have the laundry service pick up the dirty clothing, and of course, there are no bills, save the ones Mumsy and Papaw are paying...so hey, it's all good for the Fauntleroys! They can figure out that 'personal responsibility' game at the quarter century mark! I don't think they're doing them any favors, though--there should be a little interaction with the real world.

Oh well, time marches on. It's a different world today--we're not going backward, and I don't know if it's such a hot idea to beat kids in school, certainly (though it would be nice if parents would trust a teacher to make the right call and second-guess a bit less, especially those with good reputations). Since they say the brain isn't fully matured until 25, maybe the infantilization of college kids gives them a few more years to knit those hemispheres together. If the end result is a more centered human, maybe it's all good.

Maybe, though, they should raise the age of majority back to 21. I don't think 18 year old kids belong in the military--at least not serving overseas. I think they should be 21 before they can be deployed, at least.

But that's just my lousy opinion...no one's gonna take me up on that!

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