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Tue Jan 17, 2017, 09:52 PM

It won't make the problems go away

We can shut down the forum, but it won't change the fact that the democratic party is in one of the worst places its ever been. It wasn't just Hillary that lost. We lost up and down the ticket. It might be a good idea to figure out how we got here. It could be important to understanding where to go and what to do. I strongly suspect just focusing on Trump isn't going to fix things. And the Russians didn't hack every race and every democratic candidate. And Comey didn't undermine all candidates.

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Arrow 59 replies Author Time Post
Reply It won't make the problems go away (Original post)
zipplewrath Jan 2017 OP
shraby Jan 2017 #1
Ken Burch Jan 2017 #6
boston bean Jan 2017 #9
forthemiddle Jan 2017 #11
blm Jan 2017 #46
bettyellen Jan 2017 #2
JTFrog Jan 2017 #3
HassleCat Jan 2017 #4
AJH032 Jan 2017 #5
Starry Messenger Jan 2017 #7
JTFrog Jan 2017 #8
zipplewrath Jan 2017 #21
Starry Messenger Jan 2017 #26
zipplewrath Jan 2017 #29
Starry Messenger Jan 2017 #34
zipplewrath Jan 2017 #35
FSogol Jan 2017 #10
Justice Jan 2017 #12
zipplewrath Jan 2017 #17
dionysus Jan 2017 #13
Lurks Often Jan 2017 #14
dionysus Jan 2017 #18
CajunBlazer Jan 2017 #50
dionysus Jan 2017 #52
CajunBlazer Jan 2017 #55
emulatorloo Jan 2017 #58
justhanginon Jan 2017 #54
riderinthestorm Jan 2017 #59
jonno99 Jan 2017 #15
zipplewrath Jan 2017 #16
NCTraveler Jan 2017 #19
zipplewrath Jan 2017 #20
uponit7771 Jan 2017 #24
zipplewrath Jan 2017 #25
NCTraveler Jan 2017 #36
crazycatlady Jan 2017 #40
uponit7771 Jan 2017 #23
uponit7771 Jan 2017 #22
zipplewrath Jan 2017 #27
uponit7771 Jan 2017 #30
zipplewrath Jan 2017 #32
NCTraveler Jan 2017 #37
uponit7771 Jan 2017 #39
NCTraveler Jan 2017 #41
blm Jan 2017 #49
blm Jan 2017 #28
zipplewrath Jan 2017 #31
blm Jan 2017 #43
zipplewrath Jan 2017 #33
blm Jan 2017 #44
joshcryer Jan 2017 #38
betsuni Jan 2017 #42
Blue_Tires Jan 2017 #45
geek tragedy Jan 2017 #47
LanternWaste Jan 2017 #48
zipplewrath Jan 2017 #57
stonecutter357 Jan 2017 #51
otohara Jan 2017 #53
BainsBane Jan 2017 #56

Response to zipplewrath (Original post)

Tue Jan 17, 2017, 09:55 PM

1. Then what were they doing in the states election board's computers??

I hold they were blocking registrations from being recorded. Particularly the ones that registered at the Dept. of Motor Vehicles and were sent in from there.

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Response to shraby (Reply #1)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 02:30 AM

6. It's not a choice BETWEEN dealing with voter suppression OR recognizing that the party is in crisis.

 

We can and must do BOTH.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #6)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 08:23 AM

9. If a party loses due to voter suppression and/or russian infilitration and/or FBI meddling

is it a party in crisis, or a nation in crisis?

I'm gonna focus on the shit you can actually point to that caused a loss. And work on getting that fixed.

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Response to shraby (Reply #1)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 10:03 AM

11. That didn't happen in Wisconsin

We have same day registration, so if someone isn't on the voter rolls, they can register right there.
For Feingold it wasn't Gerrymandering either because that doesn't affect Senate races.
Voter ID MAYBE had an effect, but there have been numerous surveys done since election day, and the number I saw about people being turned away because of not having proper ID was eleven!!!!!

In Wisconsin (outside of Madison, who outvoted this election) every other Dem stronghold just wasn't jazzed up enough to vote.

Why was Ron Johnson able to paint Russ Feingold (who lost by a larger margin than Clinton did), as an out of touch policitian? We need to figure that out before 2018 when Tammy Baldwin is up for election.

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Response to shraby (Reply #1)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 12:47 PM

46. That is EXACTLY what Pat McCrory did in NC, too. DMVs never processed voter registrations

that went through their offices.

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Response to zipplewrath (Original post)

Tue Jan 17, 2017, 09:56 PM

2. RT bullshit was being spread here pretty thickly- and some people still buy that crap...

 

You'd think they'd be a little bit introspective but I'm not seeing it. And the irrational targeting of Dems for hatred continues here.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 17, 2017, 10:33 PM

3. +1 nt

 

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 17, 2017, 11:04 PM

4. Yep. Pretty much.

 

Mostly ideas about who to blame.

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Response to zipplewrath (Original post)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 01:59 AM

5. We picked up seats in the House and Senate

Just throwing that out there...

I wouldn't say we lost up and down the ticket.

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Response to zipplewrath (Original post)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 05:37 AM

7. CA is doing great.

Fix gerrymandering and reduce voter suppression and you'll see the GOP start to sink like a rock in other states too.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #7)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 07:59 AM

8. +1 nt

 

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #7)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 11:25 PM

21. for the last 10 years?

Or really more. The democrats have been "losing" for the better part of 12 - 15 years if you look up and down the ticket.

That losing has enabled the gerrymandering.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #21)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 11:30 PM

26. Do you know the history of redistricting?

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #26)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 11:35 PM

29. And so how did we get there?

This isn't a problem that started in 2016 with HRC.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #29)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 12:03 AM

34. Read, the, date.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #34)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 12:19 AM

35. wish I could

Something is wrong with the pointer. But if I anticipate your point, I'm not sure it includes the "continued" tendency of the Democratic party lose.

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Response to zipplewrath (Original post)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 08:32 AM

10. But someone did undermine our candidates. How about adopting this unoffical rule:

When running for office as a member of the Democratic party, how about running AGAINST the Republicans and conservatives instead of attacking the party?

Look at what is about to happen in Virginia. McAullife's term as Governor is up and he's prevented from running again due to VA law.

Lieutenant Governor, Ralph Northam is running and Tom Perriello, former U.S. Representative is entering the race. Both are excellent candidates. Both would make great Governors. Both have solid progressive records. At some point, the national far-left will notice this race, select one candidate, and begin to demonize the other. An inter-party fight might lead to Republican Puke, Ed Gillespie winning.

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Response to FSogol (Reply #10)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 10:14 AM

12. Excellent Post. Excellent.

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Response to FSogol (Reply #10)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 04:21 PM

17. Yeah, because candidates will always run against the person who isn't in the race.

Look, (as Obama is fond of starting answers) Candidates will and must run against their opponents. The answer is not to avoid a primary challenger, the point is to get the support of the party being "who you are". Yes, it is hard, but in a way it is the point. The whole "pivot" thing rarely works. Our challenge is to pick candidates who are being "themselves" in the primary. They are the only ones who can win.

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Response to zipplewrath (Original post)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 01:32 PM

13. We can't. There a lot of us here who can't admit our campaign was less than perfect.

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Response to dionysus (Reply #13)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 01:49 PM

14. And you win the thread and the 2016 Postmortem Forum

 

Too many have invested too much of themselves into their political candidate to ever be able to accept or see the flaws of their candidate.

Before the accusations start, I never once believed Sanders could win in the GE

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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #14)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 04:57 PM

18. I don't know if bernie could have won the GE, but i figure he would have stood just a good

a chance as any. However, i did not think there was any way he could have every won the primary. And trying to guess how well he would have done is a complete waste, because we'll never, ever know for sure (no matter what we may think would have happened).

He was supposed to have been a kucinich-like joke and get laughed off the court. However, he helped fire up the next generation of voters, he brought thebplight of the middle class into the forefront in a way no one else was doing, and he won several states in the process.

To me, that was far exceeding original expectations. He helped make the middle class a hughlighted plank in the platform, and that's great. He got hillary talking more about the middle class than she would have otherwise, and that's great!

Of course you'll never get anyone to admit that was their ultimate goal, that's something you just don't do in politics... i'm pretty sure he knew what a long shot winning the primary was, so i think he accomplished what he set out to do.

Hillary would have been a fine president; i think she would have been a better president than a campaigner. And that's fine, not every body is a natural campaigner or self promoter.... not everyobe is gifted at it like bill or barack.. they are true masters of it. Candidates like hillary or gore would have been far better officeholders than they were campaigners...

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Response to dionysus (Reply #18)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 06:59 PM

50. Will Bernie run for President again - NO! - So what's your point?

Let me answer that question for you - your point is moot! Dead! Kaput! It doesn't matter now; it will have absolutely no affect on the future. Bernie was a one off. No independent socialists are in the wings ready to throw their hats in the ring for 2020, or even 2024 or 2028. The "Revolution" is dead! Bernie was the far left's "chance of a life time" and that one chance was not successful.

Who gives a shit if he "far exceeded expectations" - he lost! And he lost handily! If he wanted win he should have appealed to more registered Democrats - in every primary he lost in that category. Why, because they weren't drawn to his "revolution" and he would never change his approach because his "revolution" was/is everything to him. He has been a modern Don Quixote and he has be jousting with capitalist windmills his entire life, and will continue to do so until he dies.

Here is what he did do - he succeeded in his original objective to draw Hillary further to the left - to concentrate on appealing to her base rather than appealing to middle America. Worst of all he got people like you all excited about an agenda that he could have never made into reality. He attacked Hillary repeatedly by painting her as a tool of Corporate America. All's fair in war and politics, but after he lost he could take those words back, and he really didn't try.

After he finally conceded he left supporters disillusioned and far from excited about supporting Hillary. Many "held their noses" and voted for Clinton, but they did little else. Knowing that Sanders had success in attacking Clinton as a capitalist tool, early in the general election campaign Trump used Sanders attack lines reinforcing a message that shouldn't have been use to attack a fellow progressive in the first place. He continued to use them effectively for the rest of the campaign.

Yes, Hillary's campaign made some mistakes by concentrating on discrediting Trump - they misunderstood that far too many Americans would stoop to support such a rotten human being. And Comey and Putin supplied the coup de grace, but Sander's campaign was the first nail in Hillary's coffin.

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Response to CajunBlazer (Reply #50)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 07:14 PM

52. You mistake me for someone who care what a conservadem thinks, gush gallop aside.

Keep thinking caring about the populace is "far left".

When you start saying affordable healthcare, education, and fair wages are "far left" ideas, you lose any molecule of liberal credibility you may have had.

Again, you act like talking shit about bernie will hurt my feelings, or something. It won't.

Politics isn't reduced to idolizing a conservadem politician to us... cry about bernie all you want, it won't hurt my feelings...

I'd say "you lose", but having a conservadem lose to a human combover due to hubris, makes us ALL lose!

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Response to dionysus (Reply #52)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 07:39 PM

55. The label "far left" has little to do with their objectives - it's their mind set

Most progressive have the same objectives.

What sets the "far left" apart is the propensity to believe that the impossible is not only possible, but inevitable if they but try hard enough to will it into existence. There are many other mind sets of the far left, but I am not currently willing to spend too much effort on a board which is going away or on someone who will not be convinced even when presented with facts - another far left trait by the way.

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Response to dionysus (Reply #52)

Fri Jan 20, 2017, 02:01 AM

58. When you start creating strawman and shove words in other people's mouths, you lose credibility.

"When you start saying affordable healthcare, education, and fair wages are "far left" ideas, you lose any molecule of liberal credibility you may have had. "

Poster never said any of that.

I disagree w his construct of far left.

However attempting to paint him as against affordable healthcare, education and fair wages is bullshit. It is intellectually dishonest and you are better than that.

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Response to CajunBlazer (Reply #50)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 07:36 PM

54. Excellent. I agree, those are my thoughts exactly.

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Response to dionysus (Reply #13)

Fri Jan 20, 2017, 06:03 AM

59. +1 nt

 

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Response to zipplewrath (Original post)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 03:24 PM

15. Agreed - a decent post-election write-up here:

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Response to jonno99 (Reply #15)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 04:11 PM

16. This is the fundamental problem.

Our losses go way back and we need to understand this. If this group gets shut down it should be replaced by the group " how the heck did we get here? ". Personally it has little to do with HRC and far more to do with our drift over the last 20 years.

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Response to zipplewrath (Original post)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 06:05 PM

19. Comey did undermine all candidates.

 

Not sure how you get to the claim he didn't.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #19)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 11:22 PM

20. Last 10 years

Look at the overall drift of the last 10 years up and down the ticket and tell me that an act from 2016 is responsible for it all.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #20)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 11:26 PM

24. Gerrymandering and voter suppression?! We just going to ignore those factors now? tia

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #24)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 11:29 PM

25. no, but

we also can't ignore the fact that gerrymandering happened because we lost so badly at the state level.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #20)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 07:54 AM

36. When did I say he was responsible for it all?

 

I was simply addressing your blatantly inaccurate statement. The assumption you then made is completely made up and cannot be found in anything I have said.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #20)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 08:48 AM

40. We didn't focus down the ticket since 2008

And the downticket campaigns were competing for resources (volunteers) with the top of the ticket ones. Many wouldn't even share office space.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #19)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 11:25 PM

23. +1

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Response to zipplewrath (Original post)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 11:25 PM

22. BULL FUCKIN SHIT !!! Comey, Voter suppression and Russia all the rest of the postmortems are guessin

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #22)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 11:32 PM

27. Try again

I suggest your proposition in the context of the last 10 or 15 years might need some work.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #27)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 11:36 PM

30. Gerrymandering and voter suppression?! We just going to ignore those factors now? tia

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #30)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 11:49 PM

32. no, we're going to disucss them

But we're going to discuss them in the context of the last 10 or 15 years.

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #30)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 08:05 AM

37. Their replies make it clear they don't understand gerrymandering and voter suppression...

 

Last edited Thu Jan 19, 2017, 09:02 AM - Edit history (1)

didn't just start this cycle. It's a big problem and goes back throughout the time-frame they keep talking about. They think just blurting out 10 to 15 years somehow mitigates the voter suppression and gerrymandering argument. It shows a lack of understanding. Please don't get me wrong, I think we have other issues as well. I just don't get that they won't even recognize the depth of the problem. And that is what they are doing.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #37)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 08:46 AM

39. +1, we've got to do the 50 state thing all county thing ... without voter suppression and

... gerrymandering we'd mud stomp the KGOP.

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #39)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 09:05 AM

41. As a Floridian, I get the enormous importance of local elections and gerrymandering.

 

Stating that does not negate my concerns about the DNC. A fifty state strategy and understanding where we can really make ground at the county and district level is big. We have similar concerns and I don't get why some so easily dismiss the big picture. I actually agree with some of their concerns. I don't get why they are so dismissive.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #27)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 05:55 PM

49. OK, zip - how long have firms like Crosscheck been around and used by GOP vote suppression machine?

.

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Response to zipplewrath (Original post)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 11:32 PM

28. Crosscheck blocked the votes of hundreds of thousands in swing states. That is the BIGGEST reason.

And the one we have to deal with and expose andů.SUE.

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Response to blm (Reply #28)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 11:37 PM

31. For the last 10 years+?

Really we need to take a much longer look.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #31)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 12:39 PM

43. You weren't around when Florida purged voter rolls before 2000 election? Crosscheck was another, and

even more aggressive method pressed into use.

Started in Kansas in 2005.

Surprised so few are aware of this history and how it has deliberately targeted swing state voters.

https://thevotingnews.com/tag/interstate-crosscheck/

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Response to zipplewrath (Original post)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 11:53 PM

33. Again

I think that we need to focus on the last 10 -15 years.
We need to realize that up and down the ticket we have been slowly losing at the local and state level, not to mention losing at a federal level when we should have been winning "easily".

I know people want to kill this group, but we really need to discuss how e got here over the last 10, 15 or 20 years.

So, maybe the powers that be can rename this "how we got to where we need to go".

Or we could just whine.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #33)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 12:40 PM

44. Or we could expose and SUE Crosscheck and those states implementing Crosscheck.

.

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Response to zipplewrath (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 08:40 AM

38. Stop attacking Dems.

Easy.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #38)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 09:15 AM

42. Yes! Republicans are the problem, not Democrats.

Easy.

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Response to zipplewrath (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 12:46 PM

45. I'd argue '06 and '02 were worse, and that's just from recent memory

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Response to zipplewrath (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 02:24 PM

47. The subject of how to improve the party isn't banned for discussion.

 

This is a backwards-looking forum, and as such it will have to give way to a forward-looking one.

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Response to zipplewrath (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 02:30 PM

48. Did anyone forward the premise that removing and replacing one forum

Did anyone forward the premise that removing and replacing one forum would prevent the problems?

I strongly suspect that any actual structural weaknesses within the party will not be solved, removed or absolved by the non-existence or replacement of the forum.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #48)

Fri Jan 20, 2017, 01:04 AM

57. No

But Skinner can not be influenced. He was very clear that he has made his decision and will entertain no thoughtful arguments to the contrary. The same attitude that resulted in a disastrous election for the democrats.

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Response to zipplewrath (Original post)


Response to zipplewrath (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 07:17 PM

53. A Coup Is Underway

 

by those who decided it would be easier to take over the party vs making that beautiful dream of a 3rd party come true because they can't and they know it.

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Response to zipplewrath (Original post)

Thu Jan 19, 2017, 09:07 PM

56. Repeatedly picking at the scab

and hardening divisions won't improve things either.

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