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Wed Jan 4, 2017, 06:41 PM

 

President Sanders? Bernie would have beaten Trump

President Sanders? Bernie would have beaten Trump

If Democrats had made a different choice in the primaries last spring, Bernie Sanders would be assembling his cabinet right now. A reading of voting patterns in the presidential election suggests that the Vermont senator would have beaten Donald Trump.

Mr. Trump won the election by prevailing in the Rust Belt states of Michigan, Wisconsinand Pennsylvania that, together, gave him 46 electoral votes. In Michigan, he edged Hillary Clinton by just three-tenths of a percent. In Wisconsin, the margin was eight-tenths. In Pennsylvania there was a slightly larger gap of 1.2 percent.

All three of those states usually lean toward the Democratic candidate. This time around, most working class white voters -- many of whom voted for Barack Obama in the last two elections -- saw Ms. Clinton as the incarnation of a political establishment that was indifferent to their struggles. They were won over by Mr. Trump's boasts that he would protect American jobs and challenge the influence of Wall Street. Who else in the 2016 campaign made similar promises, with far more conviction? Bernie Sanders, of course


http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/

133 replies, 15571 views

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Reply President Sanders? Bernie would have beaten Trump (Original post)
FreakinDJ Jan 2017 OP
hrmjustin Jan 2017 #1
True Dough Jan 2017 #2
guillaumeb Jan 2017 #5
True Dough Jan 2017 #9
guillaumeb Jan 2017 #13
Hekate Jan 2017 #6
FreakinDJ Jan 2017 #8
Alekzander Jan 2017 #17
emulatorloo Jan 2017 #19
Alekzander Jan 2017 #37
emulatorloo Jan 2017 #40
mopinko Jan 2017 #34
Alekzander Jan 2017 #38
Hekate Jan 2017 #43
Alekzander Jan 2017 #69
Hekate Jan 2017 #70
LanternWaste Jan 2017 #86
emulatorloo Jan 2017 #24
Cal33 Jan 2017 #90
George II Jan 2017 #45
zentrum Jan 2017 #56
Quayblue Jan 2017 #66
guillaumeb Jan 2017 #3
dogman Jan 2017 #14
guillaumeb Jan 2017 #16
dogman Jan 2017 #22
LanternWaste Jan 2017 #87
dogman Jan 2017 #100
Eliot Rosewater Jan 2017 #4
Hoyt Jan 2017 #7
FreakinDJ Jan 2017 #12
Hoyt Jan 2017 #25
BainsBane Jan 2017 #118
liquid diamond Jan 2017 #88
karynnj Jan 2017 #121
WhiteTara Jan 2017 #10
emulatorloo Jan 2017 #11
guillaumeb Jan 2017 #15
longship Jan 2017 #18
putitinD Jan 2017 #20
frazzled Jan 2017 #92
putitinD Jan 2017 #93
Justice Jan 2017 #120
rzemanfl Jan 2017 #21
TheCowsCameHome Jan 2017 #23
sheshe2 Jan 2017 #26
Tarheel_Dem Jan 2017 #27
INdemo Jan 2017 #54
emulatorloo Jan 2017 #55
mythology Jan 2017 #57
INdemo Jan 2017 #80
Tarheel_Dem Jan 2017 #82
EffieBlack Jan 2017 #98
dionysus Jan 2017 #72
Hassin Bin Sober Jan 2017 #28
lapucelle Jan 2017 #29
FreakinDJ Jan 2017 #61
lapucelle Jan 2017 #73
LisaM Jan 2017 #30
Maven Jan 2017 #31
otohara Jan 2017 #32
Starry Messenger Jan 2017 #33
SylviaD Jan 2017 #127
Atticus Jan 2017 #35
sheshe2 Jan 2017 #36
FreakinDJ Jan 2017 #60
Atticus Jan 2017 #62
FreakinDJ Jan 2017 #74
Atticus Jan 2017 #81
FreakinDJ Jan 2017 #95
HassleCat Jan 2017 #39
George II Jan 2017 #46
Hekate Jan 2017 #47
HassleCat Jan 2017 #51
bettyellen Jan 2017 #103
HassleCat Jan 2017 #105
bettyellen Jan 2017 #107
Starry Messenger Jan 2017 #63
HoneyBadger Jan 2017 #41
mcar Jan 2017 #42
Victor_c3 Jan 2017 #44
George II Jan 2017 #48
FreakinDJ Jan 2017 #59
otohara Jan 2017 #84
George II Jan 2017 #49
certainot Jan 2017 #50
LenaBaby61 Jan 2017 #52
0rganism Jan 2017 #53
aikoaiko Jan 2017 #58
Jakes Progress Jan 2017 #64
heaven05 Jan 2017 #65
LineReply .
NCTraveler Jan 2017 #67
synergie Jan 2017 #68
dionysus Jan 2017 #71
LexVegas Jan 2017 #75
brooklynite Jan 2017 #76
FreakinDJ Jan 2017 #94
brooklynite Jan 2017 #97
bettyellen Jan 2017 #104
FreakinDJ Jan 2017 #111
bettyellen Jan 2017 #112
FreakinDJ Jan 2017 #113
bettyellen Jan 2017 #115
FreakinDJ Jan 2017 #116
bettyellen Jan 2017 #117
Persondem Jan 2017 #77
LineReply .
ismnotwasm Jan 2017 #78
rock Jan 2017 #79
ucrdem Jan 2017 #83
RedFury Jan 2017 #85
liquid diamond Jan 2017 #89
disillusioned73 Jan 2017 #91
Blue_Tires Jan 2017 #96
EffieBlack Jan 2017 #99
SharonClark Jan 2017 #106
SMC22307 Jan 2017 #129
J_William_Ryan Jan 2017 #101
ZM90 Jan 2017 #102
MFM008 Jan 2017 #108
longship Jan 2017 #109
Orsino Jan 2017 #110
MadamPresident Jan 2017 #114
BlueStateLib Jan 2017 #119
kenfrequed Jan 2017 #122
SMC22307 Jan 2017 #123
kenfrequed Jan 2017 #124
nemo137 Jan 2017 #125
SylviaD Jan 2017 #126
azmom Jan 2017 #128
Lil Missy Jan 2017 #130
betsuni Jan 2017 #131
SidDithers Jan 2017 #133
Arazi Jan 2017 #132

Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 06:43 PM

1. Maybe, maybe not!

 

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 06:45 PM

2. I think it's about time this is discussed here at the DU!

This topic has been overlooked and/or avoided for far too long!

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Response to True Dough (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 06:45 PM

5. For how many seconds?

Or minutes?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #5)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 06:46 PM

9. Oh, it must have been a couple of minutes

I thought we were making progress!

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Response to True Dough (Reply #9)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 06:48 PM

13. The pendelum swings constantly.

Wait till Harry Turtledove writes a "President Sanders" novel in his alternate history series.

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Response to True Dough (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 06:45 PM

6. Right. It has been SO suppressed!

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Response to True Dough (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 06:46 PM

8. I was figuring this thread would be locked by now

 

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Response to FreakinDJ (Reply #8)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 06:50 PM

17. How does DU even expect to grow if it continually locks threads? Sure, there may be

 

some cases for locking a thread but so many are simply because some DUers do not like the thread topic.

Dems are a large diversified group so of course, there will be varying opinions.

Daily Kos & others have no problem with discussions where there are varying opinions on the subject. It works quite well because you almost always learn something & get a lot out of the discussions.

If people here are not mature enough to have an intelligent debate on something it says a lot about DU.

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Response to Alekzander (Reply #17)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 06:53 PM

19. Has this thread been locked?

If so why am I still able to post in it?

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Response to emulatorloo (Reply #19)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 07:57 PM

37. No, the poster said he was surprised it has not yet been locked

 

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Response to Alekzander (Reply #37)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 08:30 PM

40. And yet it still isn't locked?

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Response to Alekzander (Reply #17)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 07:48 PM

34. ummm. kos

has banned more topics more quickly than du in the whole time i have been here.
usually the worst thing that happens here is you get your own little forum, and can enjoy the echoes to your hearts content.

the couple times things have been shut down around here was when the place was f'ing on fire w nothing but rehash after rehash after rehash.

this bores the people who really live here to tears. it causes day drinking. it causes carpal tunnel syndrome. it tears families apart.
and to what end?

way fewer members, that's what. when they start leavin faster than they're comin, it is time to stop the nonsense.

that time approaches for this question. not soon enough.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #34)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 08:00 PM

38. Never have had that problem at DK yet & been there for a while. I have had threads locked here

 

before. If it changes will go ahead and contribute but I am not going to do that again if they are still thin skin

So far all is good. Had a couple DUers attack me over one topic but so far that is all.

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Response to Alekzander (Reply #38)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 08:58 PM

43. Oh you poor thing. I can tell you feel oppressed and fearful of the DU dynamic.

We're so fearsome here.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #43)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 01:57 AM

69. No, fortunately most are good, not like yourself.

 

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Response to Alekzander (Reply #69)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 02:20 AM

70. Awwww

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Response to Alekzander (Reply #17)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 02:12 PM

86. Would that were the purpose of the OP...

"If people here are not mature enough to have an intelligent debate on something..."

Would that were the purpose of the OP...

Those same mature and intelligent individuals realize as well that various and difference of opinions does not require flame-bait, regardless of how the flame-bait is presented or rationalized as something else.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Reply #8)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 07:02 PM

24. Why do you think that?

It is just another speculative op-ed. DU's pages are full of those.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Reply #8)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 02:40 PM

90. It probably would have been, if you had written something of this nature BEFORE the

 

Election. The purpose was to prevent harming the Democratic nominee's chances of
winning against the Republican nominee. Once the Election was over, anything goes.
I think you failed to see this point. DU has had this principle -- as long as
I have been a member.

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Response to True Dough (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 09:12 PM

45. Why?

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Response to True Dough (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 10:02 PM

56. Not overlooked.

Just not allowed here. But it's a really valid point. He'd have won the rust belt. Plus all the blue states. He'd have won the electoral college and the popular vote. Voila!

Her likability/trustability numbers were always low. It doesn't matter why or how unfair it was---Comey, FOX, bad media, sexism. The result was low national lack of momentum and the Dem establishment needed to pay attention to that.

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Response to True Dough (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 11:35 PM

66. ...

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 06:45 PM

3. "Could" and "would" are not synonymous.

One denotes certainty and the other denotes a possibility.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #3)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 06:49 PM

14. This is an opinion.

It's probably meaningless except to those of us who share it. I'm looking at what is happening now and it seems Bernie knows to talk about the endangered social programs as opposed to Russia. I think his communication skills are what we need now.

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Response to dogman (Reply #14)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 06:50 PM

16. Sanders was my ifrst choice, and my primary choice,

but using the word would denotes certainty. No qualifiers were used.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #16)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 06:54 PM

22. Except it is an Op/Ed.

I think calling it an opinion upfront is a qualifier. Opinions don't really count for much unless they reaffirm your beliefs or inspire your opinion.

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Response to dogman (Reply #22)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 02:15 PM

87. My opinion is that 2+24.

My opinion is that 2+2=4. I suppose it merely inspires my opinions, and doesn't count for much...

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #87)

Fri Jan 6, 2017, 12:15 AM

100. If one opinion is correct, are all opinions correct?

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 06:45 PM

4. Probably and if all who bad mouthed HRC

had not she would have won...

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 06:46 PM

7. Yeah, ignorant white wing bigots would have rushed out to vote for Sanders.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #7)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 06:47 PM

12. Denigrating voters is not really a "Winning Tactic"

 

thought folks would have figured that out by now

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Response to FreakinDJ (Reply #12)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 07:06 PM

25. Ain't making nice with the white wing bigots that voted for Trump.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Reply #12)

Tue Jan 17, 2017, 04:03 AM

118. We certainly saw that in the primary

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #7)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 02:19 PM

88. Sanders is Jewish and a socialist

 

There is no way in hell those white working fucks would have voted for him. His fanboys refuse to address that issue whenever this topic arises.

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Response to liquid diamond (Reply #88)

Tue Jan 17, 2017, 09:52 AM

121. With Trump in former KGB Putin's pocket, it is hard to demonize a democratic socialist

I would imagine that Sanders would have been pushed to speak more of FDR and the new deal than Denmark and Sweden -- in fact, long time allies of his in Burlington were saying he needed to do that after the second debate.

You might say "socialist", but the fact is that that word has been demonized - as has liberal in the US by conservatives. A British high school teacher used the Obama hope poster and a distorted one from 2010 that was made to look ominous and replaced the word "hope" with "socialism" to show the poster of ads and propaganda. Her kids did not get why the second was negative -- because they did not have the same negative reaction to the word.

As to Jewish, how many times a day did Trump point out Ivanka and Jared were ORTHODOX Jews?

However, you never know the path not taken. I agree that he might have been better in getting the disaffected vote in the rust belt IN ADDITION to the normal Democratic vote that any nominee. It might also be that people really DID see two very different choices in the election. Going to a local ACA rally - I see that - now that we have lost - we are far more galvanized over that issue than during the election. One question is whether a different candidate could have made the election a referendum over keeping ACA, keeping the EPA regulations, keeping the banking regulations etc.

I KNOW that HRC had tons of position papers and gave speeches on them constantly. It was Trump who ran an almost content free election. What Trump did was to run on simple - (yes, stupid and impossible) slogans. One question is whether we could have done better creating simple slogans IN ADDITION to the speeches and complicated proposals. Had we done this, could we have gotten through with a media giving Trump hours of coverage as they found his outrageous comments interesting -- blame a culture that made stars of shock jocks!

The other question is who might have done that. I actually don't think it would be Bernie. Bernie is Bernie and he can be inspiring and he has to have political skills to have done what he did - without the support of any powers that be. But, he will speak of Denmark, which to a different audience gets his points across, to the entire country which demands leaders speak of why America is exceptional - not question if it is.

So, who could have filled that role? I would question whether Biden or Warren might have done so.

Imagine HRC opted out and Biden entered as the favorite, he might have connected better - almost for sure in PA where he was loved by Scanton, which is not located in the Philadelphia or Pittsburgh area. Biden DID find the slogans - 'Osama is dead, GM is alive" and "Guilaini is just 911 and a verb and a noun" BUT he also could go off on extreme tangents like when he spoke in the Senate at the Alito hearing for 26 minutes mostly on things like Irish kids could not go to Princeton when he was young.

But Biden would not have been a flawless candidate wither. With Biden there are so many different Bidens - there is the serious man who spent 3 decades on the foreign relations committee and who gained the respect of the beltway media on that; the very human, likable man who would say what was on his mind - with far less of a filter than most; there is also a man. Like anyone who has been in public life for at least 45 years, he has negatives too. The various bankruptcy bills might make it hard for him to be seen as the one to help the rust belt. The Anita Hill hearings might have still been a negative in a contested primary. Not to mention, Biden ran in 1988 and 2008 without gaining much traction - so, while he would get far more support as a sitting VP, it is hard to make the case that he was a spectacular candidate.

Warren, though incredible, has run just one race - in Massachusetts.

Where I come out is that this was a very close race. It is always easy after the fact to Monday Morning quarterback the race. I suspect that ANY candidate might have been blind sided by Trump. I suspect that he always was doing better than his polling. That happened in many many primaries and the general election. To me, this means that many who voted for him were not comfortable stating they would do so. One clue was he did better in the computerized polls than in those where you spoke to a person.

In retrospect, it is obvious that she should have spent more time in WI, MI, and even PA. In addition, had her campaign been more worried about those states, she might have been able to have a big speech in one of these areas and spoke emotionally about the facts of their lives and honestly acknowledged that we need to do better there. Imagine a call for a "Marshall Plan" at home - referencing the after WWII investment that restored the war damaged Europe. However, when they anticipated a landslide victory, this could have been seen as needlessly risky and suggesting not enough was done in the 8 Obama years.


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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 06:46 PM

10. Since he couldn't win the Democratic Primary

I doubt it.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 06:47 PM

11. Russ Feingold's stunning victory proves the author's theory

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Response to emulatorloo (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 06:49 PM

15. No less than Zephyr Teachout's victory. eom

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 06:52 PM

18. The god damn primary is fucking over.

It is time to put this rubbish bullshit to bed. I gladly supported and voted for Bernie in the Michigan primary and gladly supported and voted for Hillary Clinton in the general election.

Nobody can rationally say that Bernie Sanders would have beat Drumpf. Such thinking comes straight out of the department of make shit up department.

I love Bernie. I voted for Hillary Clinton in the GE.

But Bernie did not win in the primaries and no-fucking-body can say that he would have won in the GE. That would be making shit up.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 06:53 PM

20. Bernie would have easily beat Trump. Especially where it mattered, WI, MI, and PA.

you betcha!

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Response to putitinD (Reply #20)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 04:37 PM

92. But he would have lost everywhere else

So what's your point? I don't even think he would have won in the rust belt.
Please get off these fantasies.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #92)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 05:37 PM

93. he did win 22 states in the primary

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Response to putitinD (Reply #93)

Tue Jan 17, 2017, 09:45 AM

120. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-system-isnt-rigged-against-sanders/


Sanders' wins were mostly caucuses states -

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 06:54 PM

21. So very tired of these. n/t

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 06:55 PM

23. Locking.

myself in the bomb shelter until this is over.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 07:07 PM

26. Yikes.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 07:08 PM

27. But he couldn't win the primary, so it's a moot point. If POC weren't excited about this election..

what makes you think the person who lost the primary by millions of votes would have generated the level of excitement needed to win the GE? I'm as sick of hearing about the "white working class" as they are of hearing about all the rest of us.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #27)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 09:45 PM

54. DWS prevented Bernie from winning the primary.....

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Response to INdemo (Reply #54)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 10:00 PM

55. Nope. Jeff Weaver prevented Bernie from winning the primary.

Incompetent Jeff Weaver prevented Bernie from winning the primary by not spending time broadening Bernie's coalition. Just threw red meat to us.

A terrible waste.

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Response to INdemo (Reply #54)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 10:06 PM

57. Yes she personally went and shut the doors at every precinct when she saw a Sanders supporter coming

 

Sanders lost because fewer voters voted for him. And given that the majority of his wins were in low turnout caucuses, there is literally nothing, not one damn thing, that suggests Sanders would have won. Unless DWS has some sort of magical mind control powers or something.

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Response to mythology (Reply #57)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 11:16 AM

80. Pretty Much

She stopped the recount in Iowa of which Bernie Sanders was gaining big time. the original Caucus count was a Cluster _____________
Had Bernie Sanders won Iowa ( and he actually did) Hillary Clinton's campaign would have been on the ropes since Bernie Sanders won NH.'
Understand this..I voted for Hillary but many of the union,blue collar workers voted for Trump because they just didn't like Hillary
.Hillary's campaign managers and advisors were made up of no so much professionals but more or less loyalists to Hillary.

She was told to go to the rust belt talk about the Steel Industry and how to stop the cheap Chinese subsidized steel form being imported but Hillary Clinton didn't do that..

Hillary Clinton only began talking about progressive ideas and issues because Bernie Sanders and his campaign forced her to,

Hillary could not turn the corner from Wall St and Goldman Sachs and proclaim that she was progressive,voters just did not buy it.
If voters would have wanted Hillary they would have voted for her 8+ years ago when she ran against a inexperienced,not so popular candidate with Barack Obama. However, Obama's organization,well oiled machine, was something we may never see again.

If Hillary would have had a different campaign organization made up of seasoned professionals she would have won.

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Response to INdemo (Reply #54)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 11:37 AM

82. Millions of us "prevented Bernie from winning the primary". "M-I-L-L-I-O-N-S"!

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Response to INdemo (Reply #54)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 09:58 PM

98. Bernie and Democratic voters prevented Bernie from winning the primary.

But if you think that Bernie couldn't manage to keep himself from getting outmaneuvered by DWS, how would you expect him to manage to beat Donald Trump?

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #27)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 04:49 AM

72. I would hope in the final choice POC would have eventually voted f- HEY! You just

Puked on my shoe! That's it...

PUT UP YER DUKES!



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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 07:09 PM

28. But but but Kurt Eichenwald saw an eleventy bliion page thick book of opo research...

..... that said Bernie was a Socialist!!!!

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 07:17 PM

29. Not all op-ed writers agree with Horsey.

Kurt Eichenwald of Newsweek has a very different take.

http://www.newsweek.com/myths-cost-democrats-presidential-election-521044

I spent time on the ground in PA, and I don't think Sanders would have won there. I'm not sure he would have carried Nevada and/or Virginia either.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #29)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 11:10 PM

61. How many Blue states went Red with HRC on the ticket

 

Is the reality

In a match up of astronomically high negatives the unknown wins

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Response to FreakinDJ (Reply #61)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 06:18 AM

73. Two, and one red state went blue.

I don't think that the map necessarily shifted due to Clinton. The Democratic administration (rather than the Republican congress) took the hit for stagnation in the rust belt states.

I wouldn't have been surprised to have seen more people do the right thing and actually show up and vote for the ticket (rather than stay home or vote for third party spoilers) if Sanders had won the nomination, but that's not Hillary's fault. I spent a lot of time in PA where voter suppression was very real.

A Sanders win presupposes that the media and the Republicans would have treated him with the same kid gloves as his primary opponents had. According to Eichenwald, who had seen the oppo book on Sanders:

Awash in false conspiracy theories and petulant immaturity, liberals put Trump in the White House. Trump won slightly fewer votes than Romney did in 2012—60.5 million compared with 60.9 million. On the other hand, almost 5 million Obama voters either stayed home or cast their votes for someone else. More than twice as many millennials—a group heavily invested in the “Sanders was cheated out of the nomination” fantasy—voted third-party. The laughably unqualified Jill Stein of the Green Party got 1.3 million votes; those voters almost certainly opposed Trump; if just the Stein voters in Michigan had cast their ballot for Clinton, she probably would have won the state. And there is no telling how many disaffected Sanders voters cast their ballot for Trump.


The truth of the matter is that when Sanders did not win the nomination, both Stein and Trump played the situation for all it was worth, and Sanders stood largely on the sidelines. Third party spoilers and narcissistic no shows put Trump in the White House.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 07:21 PM

30. Please stop.

It's bad enough that Hillary got millions of more votes in the primaries and millions more votes in the election and is not assuming any office. Do we really have to keep reading this same old, same old over and over???

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 07:23 PM

31. And Howard Dean would have won in 2004.

Except for, you know, the fact that he also didn't win the primary.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 07:27 PM

32. Had All States Been Primary vs Caucus

 

He'd have lost the primary by millions millions and million more.



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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 07:39 PM

33. First he had to win the Primary, but he lost by a landslide.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #33)

Tue Jan 17, 2017, 06:33 PM

127. Amen! nt

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 07:55 PM

35. Gee, thanks for that "unifying" post. IFAWOULDACOULDASHOULDA is SO helpful! nt

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Response to Atticus (Reply #35)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 07:56 PM

36. +1000

Aristus!

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Response to Atticus (Reply #35)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 11:04 PM

60. So is Trump winning

 

Polling always showed Bernie to be the stronger candidate

And now on the verge of having Social Security cut, Medicaid cut, and the repeal of the ACA the Go It Alone wing of the Dem Party wishes to Stay the Course

Good luck with that

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Response to FreakinDJ (Reply #60)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 11:10 PM

62. Nice straw man. "Good luck with that" nt

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Response to Atticus (Reply #62)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 07:31 AM

74. Admit it Corporate Politics is dead

 

And that is what the Neoliberal leadership of the Dem Party do not want to admit

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Response to FreakinDJ (Reply #74)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 11:23 AM

81. Wow! A CROWD of straw men!

Please continue by yourself.

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Response to Atticus (Reply #81)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 05:50 PM

95. Some people only care about themselves

 

which is why they lose

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 08:24 PM

39. We don't know that, but we should nominate a progressive or socialist.

 

It is abundantly clear that we will not win by pursuing our accustomed course.

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Response to HassleCat (Reply #39)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 09:15 PM

46. Obama proved that.

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Response to HassleCat (Reply #39)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 09:16 PM

47. I think those red state voters will really respond to a declared socialist!

Yeesh. Sure they will.

How do you plan to package these candidates?

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Response to Hekate (Reply #47)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 09:34 PM

51. Yes, they will.

 

I realize you intended sarcasm, but that's only because you can't conceive of an electorate that discovers it's class identity. I appreciate the difficulty of such a concept, where the working class and middle class are no longer divided against themselves by race, gender, religion, etc. Of course it's unlikely, but we'll never know until we try. If we continue on our present course, we will reach complete irrelevance in a few more years.

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Response to HassleCat (Reply #51)

Fri Jan 6, 2017, 12:56 AM

103. Bernie tried that and it failed.

 

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #103)

Fri Jan 6, 2017, 01:37 AM

105. But it showed us some possibilities.

 

Old Jewish democratic socialist, not even a party regular, from a small state, got a late start, was expected to drop out right after Iowa, opposed by DNC. Even so, got lots of votes, did well in states where we lost the general, attracted some new people to the party. Perhaps most significantly, polled well with demographics who "would never vote for a socialist."

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Response to HassleCat (Reply #105)

Fri Jan 6, 2017, 01:55 AM

107. He played the press game better than anyone except Trump

 

And was treated kindly. He did more Sunday shows than any other candidate. Was allowed to talk policy more than any other candidate while they asked Hillary crap like "why do people hate you".
The sad thing is they really wanted him to trash others and he complied by bashing Dems.
I don't think that was good long term thinking. the problem was he was going to raise taxes, and it seems like xenophobia and greed were what inspired people this election. I don't know how we expect people to trust people with more social welfare programs the way voters have become more cynical than ever.
I do think socialism will become more and more necessary but I'm not sure I can see middle America figuring that out any time soon. If only socialism was normalized instead of this anything goes freak show we have now!

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Response to HassleCat (Reply #39)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 11:13 PM

63. I'm a socialist--there is very little data to support your assertion.

White people have the lowest support for socialism, and only 35% of the average voter would approve of socialism in general. With the electoral vote being skewed to support white suburbanites and white rural voters, this fails out of the gate.

I'd love to be wrong in the future, but only demographic shifts and a commitment on the left to center more than the economic concerns of white people will bring us to success with a more left-wing candidate.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 08:35 PM

41. He could have won the primary if he got all the superdelegates

 

Which I thought was the point of the superdelegates

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 08:42 PM

42. Again with this?

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 09:08 PM

44. I had a post locked for suggesting exactly what you stated

I totally agree. Sanders would have won. The poling data shows just that during the primaries but establishment wanted to throw Hillary down our throats.

You get what you vote for.

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Response to Victor_c3 (Reply #44)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 09:16 PM

48. "The establishment" isn't the 17 million Americans who voted for Clinton in the primaries.

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Response to Victor_c3 (Reply #44)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 10:58 PM

59. The Dem Establishment needs to be retired

 

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Response to Victor_c3 (Reply #44)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 01:02 PM

84. Bullshit - Bullshit - Bullshit

 

Millions of ordinary people who supported Obama in 08 were so impressed and grateful for her grace, hard work and ability to bring her supporters over to Obama...she had a built in army that included her 08 Supporters and us 08 Obama supporters who would repay her if she chose to run again.

We were also aware of Sanders decades of nasty attacks against our party...and threats to primary our current president.






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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 09:17 PM

49. And just what is this OP supposed to accomplish?

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 09:20 PM

50. bullshit. it is clear dems wouldn't have gotten his back either

there is no evidence that his supporters had any plans to do anything about talk radio

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 09:42 PM

52. President Sanders? Bernie would have beaten Trump.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 09:43 PM

53. counterfactuals!

in a world where Bernie Sanders is elected president, who (or what) wins the Stanley Cup?
eta: context

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 10:47 PM

58. I think its possible, but I don't think we should post these OPs anymore.

I don't like the 'Trump would have crushed Bernie' OPs and I think the Hillary loyalists hate 'Bernie would have won' OPs just as much.

Us Bernie supporters know what we know and there will be no convincing them of even the possibility of Bernie winning.

Bernie is still organizing changes within the party, we need to support him and those Democrats who support him, and I think we just need to be happy for that instead of alternative presidential election realities.




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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 11:25 PM

64. A very narrow reading of the polls

designed to give the answer that was sought.

Extremely naive or willfully ignorant.

We recreated the very dynamics that gave us richard nixon and bush2. Because so many here don't know or like the history of presidential elections, they are doing a good job of making sure that we do it again and again.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 11:30 PM

65. and?????

 

so what. It's over!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Better watch what the new fuhrer and his rats in the House and Senate will be doing....to all of us.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 4, 2017, 11:50 PM

67. .

 



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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 12:25 AM

68. What utter BS.

 

If only Bernie had won, the Voting Rights Act would have been magically reinforced, there would never have been hacking, the GOP would have magically counted the votes of Democrats and then in the blink of an eye, there would have been world peace, and end to global poverty, if only Bernie had won.

But he didn't, he wouldn't have, and no matter how much wishing and hoping and believing, this is just not an outcome that had any chance of happening.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 04:43 AM

71. Maybe. We'll never know. Meanwhile, this will be the predictable flame war. Nt

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 07:34 AM

75. ...

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 08:08 AM

76. Because the Trump voters in the Rust Belt were really crying out for Single Payer healthcare?

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #76)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 05:49 PM

94. Nope .. just some one not part of the Establishment politics as usual

 

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Response to FreakinDJ (Reply #94)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 08:47 PM

97. ...and if Sanders had been the nominee, voters would have had a choice of two...

...why would they pick the one who proposed to expand the activities of a Government they didn't trust to do things for them?

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #97)

Fri Jan 6, 2017, 12:58 AM

104. And raise taxes? Was never a viable candidate.

 

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #104)

Fri Jan 6, 2017, 03:22 PM

111. Yet all the Polling proved he was the stronger candidate against Trump

 

I guess those uninformed voters failed to heel

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Response to FreakinDJ (Reply #111)

Fri Jan 6, 2017, 03:27 PM

112. "Failed to heel" to who, prey tell? Polls about an unvetted candidate

 

Who was hiding his taxes in the Spring? You rely on those to project a win in a race the candidate didn't come close to getting into? Seriously?

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #112)

Fri Jan 6, 2017, 03:36 PM

113. Actually the Dems lost a whole generation of voters

 

but Kuddos ... HRC got the Nomination





actually don't believe the Dems will recover any time soon

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Response to FreakinDJ (Reply #113)

Fri Jan 6, 2017, 03:51 PM

115. By winning them 60% to 37%? I don't think so. What's with that pic? Spit it out!

 

Don't be scared to tell us how you really feel about Dems.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #115)

Fri Jan 6, 2017, 03:57 PM

116. Those that refused to show up decided this election

 

and if your any indication we will be living under GOP majorities for a very long time to come

your not so clever after all are you

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Response to FreakinDJ (Reply #116)

Fri Jan 6, 2017, 04:04 PM

117. Look at your shiny new goalposts! I have a feeling you could play this game all day.

 

Good lord the millennial nonsense is as overplayed as the white working class crap.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 08:32 AM

77. Another useless crystal ball OP. I am tired of this "Bernie would have won" nonsense

It serves no purpose ... unless the purpose is to keep those intra-party wounds active.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 08:53 AM

78. .

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 10:42 AM

79. The guy who couldn't win in the primary

would nevertheless win in the general. Have I got that right?

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 12:00 PM

83. He could have been a contender . . .

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 01:31 PM

85. Indeed he would have...

...but the regressive (and powerfully dominant) part of the DP decided for the rest of us that it was Hillary's "turn." -- even though she's likely the least liked politician since Dukakis.

Well then, here we are. Thanks for nothing.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 02:25 PM

89. Bullshit. Eom.

 

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 02:59 PM

91. People can mock the what-ifs....

 

but there is only one certainty at this point.. Hillary is attending the inauguration as a guest.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 06:16 PM

96. Why are we rehashing this old shit again?

Are people bored? Just some casual trolling? Is DU desperate to do anything BUT start looking towards 2017-18?

The same folks will still be posting these same hot takes two years from now, won't they?

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Thu Jan 5, 2017, 10:02 PM

99. Yes, we know Trump voters would have voted for him because Bernie's SO dreamy!

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #99)

Fri Jan 6, 2017, 01:40 AM

106. An so gracious and charming

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #99)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 01:08 AM

129. Wow, that's some seriously sad projection.

Barack Obama is not your boyfriend.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Fri Jan 6, 2017, 12:25 AM

101. No, he wouldnt.

These threads are pointless and serve no useful purpose.

We need to focus our efforts on opposing Trump and the wrongheaded Republican agenda – an agenda a majority of Americans disapprove of.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Fri Jan 6, 2017, 12:43 AM

102. I definitely think Bernie would have taken the con out to the woodshed.

His populist message would have resonated with voters in the rust belt states and we'd be talking about President-elect Sanders right now. You can feel free to disagree with me but that's what I think would have happened.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Fri Jan 6, 2017, 03:05 AM

108. So tired of this

Sort of speculation.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Fri Jan 6, 2017, 03:15 AM

109. "If my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon."

Quote from Commander Montgomery Scott.

And oh so true.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Fri Jan 6, 2017, 01:06 PM

110. There's just no way to know that.

I was of the opinion that either Clinton or Sanders would have won big, but oh, well.

There are too many variables for cherry-picking such as this story to reach a firm conclusion about an alternate history.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Fri Jan 6, 2017, 03:51 PM

114. Perhaps. But it doesn't really matter now, does it?

 

We're good and fucked. Possibly forever.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)


Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Tue Jan 17, 2017, 11:44 AM

122. He probably would have performed better

Nothing is certain, but the polling suggested he would have done better. The enthusiasm he drew and his ability to attract crossover voters was much better too.

The hate on Bernie is actually more about what he stands for than who he is. The people that want to dismiss or blame him completely are more interested in destroying the progressive movement within the party. They are easy to identify as they sort of do it every couple of years.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Tue Jan 17, 2017, 12:57 PM

123. Agree.

Hopefully the Dem Party will get it together going forward... fully controlling only 6 states is nothing to be proud of.

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Response to SMC22307 (Reply #123)

Tue Jan 17, 2017, 03:32 PM

124. Too true

There is a contingent here though that thrives on hippie-punching and classical red baiting. Of course they always seek to cover it with some other "concern" but that contingent always outs itself by attacking anything too progressive.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Tue Jan 17, 2017, 05:57 PM

125. I really don't think so.

We can't know, and there certainly wouldn't have been the same interference from Comey, but I think this author (and other folks I've seen making the "Bernie would have won" argument) are severely understating the extent to which Trump got people out based on their fears and anxieties around race, gender, and dispossession. I think that that would have remained the same. Sanders was better on trade, but it would have been trivial to paint him as just another Democrat politican who wants to take your money and give it to thugs in the cities while you get nothing, which was the appeal that brought voters in rural and exurban Wisconsin and Michigan out. I don't think the economic appeal he was making would have made a dent in that - we saw that in both the town halls he did recently. People are curious, but end of slipping back in to "but it's going to raise my taxes" or "I work hard for that I got, but I know not everyone did."

If we were able to peek in on a timeline where this and only this changed, I'd be you a beer that the result ends up substantially the same (popular vote/EC split, with Trump getting to 270).

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Tue Jan 17, 2017, 06:32 PM

126. Trump propaganda would have destroyed Bernie.

Sorry, but it's true. He would have tainted him as some sort of communist. Bernie would have wilted.

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Tue Jan 17, 2017, 07:09 PM

128. He will in 2020. Nt

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 04:43 AM

130. Apparently not, since he lost the primary, early on. n/t

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 09:01 AM

131. Flagged for review. Finally.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #131)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 01:49 PM

133. +1...nt

Sid

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Response to FreakinDJ (Original post)

Wed Jan 18, 2017, 01:38 PM

132. Yup. Kick and Rec eom

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