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Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:04 PM

No You Cant : Why Im Still Crying Over Hillary Clintons Loss.

Many women feel this way about Hillary Clinton's defeat in the GE. The loss is not just political; it's personal.

Eirene Donohue
I am her. The words flashed through my head. And suddenly, there on the 101 freeway, I was down the hole again. Tears streaming, sobs choking, heart breaking. The realization hitting me. I am Her.

And here was the root of my pain. This wasn’t just about the disappointment that my candidate lost. Or the fear of what Trump will do to this country. It felt like my very soul hurt and I realized that it was because of what this election said to me as a woman. It said no.
No, woman, stay in your place. No, woman, you are not good enough. No, woman, no matter what you do, you will not win, you will not be the boss of me.

It crushed a part of my female core to realize that yes, the world at large really does hate women that much. And while there are other reasons to dislike Hilary Clinton and disagree with her policies, misogyny and sexism are the gas that fuels the fire they burned her with.

We are supposed to stay quiet and not ask for much. Stay in our place and say please and thank you and don’t challenge anyone. We must be perfect, ten times more perfect than the man beside us. And then we must wait for them to give us permission to follow their orders.

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Reply No You Cant : Why Im Still Crying Over Hillary Clintons Loss. (Original post)
BainsBane Dec 2016 OP
WhiteTara Dec 2016 #1
BainsBane Dec 2016 #2
sheshe2 Dec 2016 #87
lapucelle Dec 2016 #77
WhiteTara Dec 2016 #108
lapucelle Dec 2016 #111
WhiteTara Dec 2016 #112
bravenak Dec 2016 #3
BainsBane Dec 2016 #5
Amimnoch Dec 2016 #23
BainsBane Dec 2016 #38
jack69 Dec 2016 #74
Akamai Dec 2016 #82
bravenak Dec 2016 #81
cwydro Dec 2016 #103
Name removed Dec 2016 #137
handmade34 Dec 2016 #90
lark Dec 2016 #115
BainsBane Dec 2016 #117
lark Dec 2016 #119
yuiyoshida Dec 2016 #106
lark Dec 2016 #118
yuiyoshida Dec 2016 #120
lark Dec 2016 #128
SharonAnn Dec 2016 #4
adigal Dec 2016 #6
SunSeeker Dec 2016 #19
Squinch Dec 2016 #20
bettyellen Dec 2016 #151
Angry Dragon Dec 2016 #32
stopbush Dec 2016 #62
jack69 Dec 2016 #70
jack69 Dec 2016 #71
stopbush Dec 2016 #78
Ligyron Dec 2016 #91
Silver Gaia Dec 2016 #131
Hekate Dec 2016 #140
Madam45for2923 Dec 2016 #7
Yavin4 Dec 2016 #8
BainsBane Dec 2016 #10
Yavin4 Dec 2016 #15
BainsBane Dec 2016 #34
progree Dec 2016 #58
JudyM Dec 2016 #80
progree Dec 2016 #92
BainsBane Dec 2016 #95
spooky3 Dec 2016 #54
Yavin4 Dec 2016 #64
spooky3 Dec 2016 #67
whopis01 Dec 2016 #61
Yavin4 Dec 2016 #65
BainsBane Dec 2016 #96
Yavin4 Dec 2016 #99
SlimJimmy Dec 2016 #121
BainsBane Dec 2016 #126
SlimJimmy Dec 2016 #143
BainsBane Dec 2016 #145
SlimJimmy Dec 2016 #146
LanternWaste Dec 2016 #130
SlimJimmy Dec 2016 #142
mopinko Dec 2016 #9
StevieM Dec 2016 #11
BainsBane Dec 2016 #12
StevieM Dec 2016 #18
BlancheSplanchnik Dec 2016 #110
mopinko Dec 2016 #16
leftofcool Dec 2016 #40
mopinko Dec 2016 #50
quakerboy Dec 2016 #84
mopinko Dec 2016 #104
quakerboy Dec 2016 #144
mopinko Dec 2016 #149
quakerboy Dec 2016 #152
Eric J in MN Dec 2016 #100
trueblue2007 Dec 2016 #13
sheshe2 Dec 2016 #14
barbtries Dec 2016 #29
sheshe2 Dec 2016 #30
barbtries Dec 2016 #35
MontanaMama Dec 2016 #68
Cha Dec 2016 #17
Starry Messenger Dec 2016 #21
BainsBane Dec 2016 #41
ismnotwasm Dec 2016 #22
DesertFlower Dec 2016 #24
oldtime dfl_er Dec 2016 #25
Gothmog Dec 2016 #26
LineLineReply .
BainsBane Dec 2016 #27
barbtries Dec 2016 #33
mcar Dec 2016 #57
Silver Gaia Dec 2016 #132
ismnotwasm Dec 2016 #28
BainsBane Dec 2016 #31
ismnotwasm Dec 2016 #42
hrmjustin Dec 2016 #36
BlueMTexpat Dec 2016 #37
Skittles Dec 2016 #39
Liberal In Red State Dec 2016 #43
brer cat Dec 2016 #44
byronius Dec 2016 #45
Hekate Dec 2016 #46
pnwmom Dec 2016 #49
demigoddess Dec 2016 #53
BainsBane Dec 2016 #98
tallahasseedem Dec 2016 #47
pnwmom Dec 2016 #48
Ghost OF Trotsky Dec 2016 #51
NBachers Dec 2016 #52
mcar Dec 2016 #55
tenisfin Dec 2016 #56
apcalc Dec 2016 #59
RiverStone Dec 2016 #60
SleeplessinSoCal Dec 2016 #69
rtracey Dec 2016 #94
fallrey Dec 2016 #63
BainsBane Dec 2016 #86
SleeplessinSoCal Dec 2016 #66
niyad Dec 2016 #72
JHan Dec 2016 #73
shenmue Dec 2016 #75
robbedvoter Dec 2016 #76
Name removed Dec 2016 #79
JudyM Dec 2016 #83
LineLineReply .
BainsBane Dec 2016 #88
3catwoman3 Dec 2016 #85
robbedvoter Dec 2016 #89
rtracey Dec 2016 #93
jimlup Dec 2016 #97
BainsBane Dec 2016 #102
Kolesar Dec 2016 #107
jimlup Dec 2016 #109
BainsBane Dec 2016 #124
jimlup Dec 2016 #125
bettyellen Dec 2016 #129
sfwriter Dec 2016 #101
GummyBearz Dec 2016 #105
BainsBane Dec 2016 #114
GummyBearz Dec 2016 #134
kcr Dec 2016 #116
BainsBane Dec 2016 #122
GummyBearz Dec 2016 #135
StarzGuy Dec 2016 #113
BainsBane Dec 2016 #123
lunamagica Dec 2016 #127
CBHagman Dec 2016 #133
Jim Lane Dec 2016 #136
BainsBane Dec 2016 #138
Jim Lane Dec 2016 #139
fallrey Dec 2016 #141
BainsBane Dec 2016 #148
Jim Lane Dec 2016 #150
fallrey Dec 2016 #154
Jim Lane Dec 2016 #155
fallrey Dec 2016 #156
Jim Lane Dec 2016 #157
BainsBane Dec 2016 #147
frazzled Dec 2016 #153

Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:06 PM

1. And never forget. Women are just

pussies that can be grabbed at will.

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Response to WhiteTara (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:07 PM

2. So it seems

From the same piece:

I am Her. Every woman is, whether they know it or not. Every woman has been held back by, pushed down by, grabbed in the pussy by sexism that cannot, will not, allow a woman to rise higher than a man. The misogyny that pulses through this world, the blood that keeps the dick of American patriarchy hard, it penetrates us from the day we are born. Smile pretty. Be good. Be quiet.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #2)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 05:09 AM

87. This

Tears are flowing...

No Words

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Response to WhiteTara (Reply #1)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 11:04 PM

77. Until we stop being 10's

or unless we're flat chested and thus automatically excluded because it's very hard to be flat chested and be a 10.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #77)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 11:19 AM

108. Oh trust me, a Pussy is a Pussy

and they are ALL subject to grabbing...this isn't about sex, this is about power.

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Response to WhiteTara (Reply #108)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 12:19 PM

111. You're probably right. The French have a saying

"La nuit tous les chats sont gris."

All cats look alike in the dark.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #111)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 12:48 PM

112. Yep.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:08 PM

3. I feel let down

 

Especially by the women who voted for that creep. It hurt me physically in a way, i'm tired, sore, have had three infections in the past month... I almost give up.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:12 PM

5. It's been hard

I've finally made it to the acceptance stage of grief, but I too have gotten sick, run a fever, and felt terribly depressed.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #5)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:52 PM

23. I envy you that you are at acceptance.

I'm still locked in anger, and lashing out at former family... former friends..

I have resorted to misogynistic insults, ageist insults, racist insults, and all manner of banter that before November 8th would have and did appall me.

I have called women who support trump a "4" and/or a "hag" and have told them they voted for him, they no longer have a voice because they are just women.

I have told elders that supported him, whose profiles say they are retired that they should just off and die because they are beyond their years of being productive citizens in tRump's 'merika. That I hope theirs is the first medicare and social security to get cut out.

I have used the most base and despicable insults against the wives, or children of men on social media who supported trump

I have told school teachers who supported him that I hope they lose their jobs or at the very least have their income severely slashed.

I am disgusted with my behavior on social media, but fuck it, logic doesn't seem to sink in with these dipshits who have voted against their own interests, maybe some of the disgusting medicine that they supported being used against them and the ones they love will finally get through to them.

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Response to Amimnoch (Reply #23)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:23 PM

38. I've had my moments

I flipped off and swore at a Bernie or Buster on the street. He was a complete stranger, but I overheard a phone conversation.

Perhaps a break from social media would help?

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Response to Amimnoch (Reply #23)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 10:11 PM

74. Acceptance is not the correct word.

Do not, at all costs, accept what has happened. Just have to live with it. If we get overwrought and have health problems from it all, then they have really won.

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Response to jack69 (Reply #74)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 11:52 PM

82. Charles Blow's columns in the new York Times are inspirational!! Look them up!

 

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Response to Amimnoch (Reply #23)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 11:52 PM

81. You sound like me

 

I want to feel guilty for acting like this, but I am too pissed off

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Response to Amimnoch (Reply #23)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 10:21 AM

103. That's a real shame.

That kind of behavior surely is not helping you.

I will never give the cretins that kind of power over me.

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Response to Amimnoch (Reply #23)


Response to BainsBane (Reply #5)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 06:37 AM

90. I am having a hard time

getting beyond denial... this is a crushing blow that not many men can understand

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #5)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 01:00 PM

115. I am nowhere near acceptance.

I am still in total rage and I admit a bit of denial, clinging like mad to the stupid hope that somehow, some way this can be changed. It's just so hard to acknowledge the complete win by all the forces for bad in this country. I can't accept the nightmare sub-humans that are now in charge, I just can't. I never accepted shrub as my president and will never accept this either. I'm hoping I can get to the point where I don't feel the need to scream all the time, but nowhere near there at this point.

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Response to lark (Reply #115)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 01:05 PM

117. Trump is so much worse than Bush

There is no comparison. When I say acceptance I mean simply acknowledging it happened. I fully intend on organizing to resist upcoming horrors.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #117)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 01:11 PM

119. I have to totally agree.

I NEVER thought I'd see the day that anyone worse than shrub was able to steal the election, but it happened.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #3)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 10:26 AM

106. I was in shock, no one expected this and the fact that people

didn't give a fuck that he was a sexual predator is the worse thing at all, the fact that he is a racist, the fact that he seems to want to ban Muslims and hates Mexicans... Every video I have seen said they didn't trust Hillary, and voted for HIM to blow up the system??? wtf?? They blew it up all right, and we may be lucky to survive it.

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Response to yuiyoshida (Reply #106)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 01:09 PM

118. I absolutely and truly hate every single person who voted for drumpf.

Every.single.one of them are dead to me. They have ruined our lives for ignorant stupid reasons and I hope it really hurts them and their families and friends badly. It just totally infuriates me that the majority of us are so screwed over by these ignorant fucks.

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Response to lark (Reply #118)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 01:31 PM

120. yeh...i am glad I feel safe in

California and can get lost in Chinatown and be protected by the hundreds of Asians around me to shield me from harm.

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Response to yuiyoshida (Reply #120)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 04:05 PM

128. If it weren't for my parents getting old and frail, I never would have left CA.

Now, I've spent so many years in the south and the cost of housing is so far below what it is in CA, I really can't afford to easily move back. However, if secession is coming, I will be moving in with my friends and will find some way to get my own place. HA. I know that's not going to happen, but it is something I fantasize about. Still haven't been able to face the true dark reality that's coming when he destroys our way of life within 3 years.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:09 PM

4. Yes, I feel the same. More than 50 years fighting this sh*t and it's still has power over us.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:13 PM

6. What still gets me is that I have NEVER seen a woman in politics spoken to the way he did to her

 

and my fellow Americans rewarded him with a win. Really?? Lock her up? Nasty woman? And they voted for him. Pussy grabber? Talked about trying to f**k a woman like a bitch. And people ignored that, my mother and mother in law who go to Church every day, voted for him.

Damn. I think many people, including my mother and MIL, including many women, hate powerful women.

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Response to adigal (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:39 PM

19. Yes, it seems both sexes admire powerful men but resent powerful women.

The powerful men are seen as doing what they should be doing, but powerful women are seen with suspicion. These women are seen as somehow illegitimate, as if they have no business being powerful and must have committed some trickery to be where they are. It is all of course fueled by sexism, something men and women are bathed in from the moment they're born. It is no wonder women can be just as sexist as men.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #19)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:43 PM

20. It wasn't the powerful man that they liked. It was the man who talked trash to the

powerful woman. That was what they liked.

Because they hate the powerful woman.

They'll believe whatever bad things they are told to believe about her, even if they are Democrats and it's the GOP talking, even if they are women and it's an abusive man talking.

Because 'murika hates a woman with power.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #20)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 04:12 PM

151. That anyone would buy into the crazy Pizza story and Clinton death count crap....

 

Just shows how they do NOT understand that a woman could choose a career and excell at it for the sake of the work. It was bizarre to see both during the primary and the general that some had to believe she was the devil incarnate for choosing a life of service.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #19)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:17 PM

32. Yes, it seems both sexes admire powerful men but resent powerful women.

Not all men feel that way ..............
The only men and women I admire are the ones that are fair in their dealings

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Response to adigal (Reply #6)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 08:37 PM

62. Isn't it about time we get over thinking that"going to church"

has any positive influence on people?

The fucking church and the Xian religion at its base is misogynitic, racist and bigoted. A patriarchal code set down by men for men, asserting that some supernatural being decided that's the way it is. Women are second-class cutizens. Property of men, in fact.

Nope, religion is the problem. Your relatives would have had a better chance of voting for Hillary had they stayed away from church.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #62)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 10:05 PM

70. There are a few churches

that preach and live the actual meaning of Jesus Christ. I truly believe that a Republican can not be a Christian, especially in these times.

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Response to jack69 (Reply #70)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 10:08 PM

71. It is time to call out

all so called Christians who support any politician who makes life harder for the "least of these".

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Response to jack69 (Reply #70)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 11:10 PM

78. The meaning of Jesus Christ?

A fairly loathsome personage, at least as how he's depicted in the Buy Bull.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #78)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 07:01 AM

91. Amen

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Response to stopbush (Reply #78)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 04:36 PM

131. I'm not even a Christian, and I disagree with that.

And no, I don't want to argue about it. I am simply saying that, as someone who teaches world religion and mythology, and has looked at the Bible, along with many other sacred texts of the world, from an academic perspective, I disagree.

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Response to Silver Gaia (Reply #131)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 10:18 PM

140. Plus 1000

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:16 PM

7. Oh wow! Yes to this:

 

I AM HER!

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:22 PM

8. Men and Women of Color voted for Hillary.

White men, as they usually do, voted Republican. It was White women that did Hillary in. That's where the author needs to address her grievances to.

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:24 PM

10. You're relentless with this

Despite the fact you've been told that Trump earned 4% less of the votes of white women than Romney did.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #10)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:31 PM

15. I'm relentless because it's the truth.

In 2016, women had the historic opportunity to elect a woman to the highest office in America and they balked. That opportunity was not there for them in 2012. Thus, comparisons to Romney's percentage are moot. Additionally, Romney was not the raging misogynist asshole that Trump is, which adds more fuel to my argument.

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:18 PM

34. Your claim is the white women's vote decided the election

Yet fewer white women voted for Trump than Romney, and Romney lost. That you think those women should have voted for Clinton doesn't mean their vote decided the election.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #34)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 07:51 PM

58. Ironically, if white women had all simply not voted, Hillary would be president

I don't give a hoot how many more or less white women voted for Trump than Romney or for Clinton compared to Obama. The 2016 election was between Trump and Clinton with some 3rd party types thrown in.

White women voted for Trump over Clinton by a 9 point margin, 52-43

http://www.cnn.com/election/results/exit-polls/national/president

Granted, nowhere near as bad as white men, who voted for Trump over Hillary by an astonishingly sickening 62-31 (31 point margin).

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Response to progree (Reply #58)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 11:43 PM

80. That white male statistic really needs to be viewed in comparison to its usual Dem vs Repug number.

As pointed out above.

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Response to JudyM (Reply #80)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 07:36 AM

92. And the white female statistic -- a 9 point, 52-43 margin of Trump over Clinton -- needs to be

examined against statements like these from the OP

It crushed a part of my female core to realize that yes, the world at large really does hate women that much.


that's the head scratcher of this election. Are a majority of white women self-hating misogynists (considering how they voted), or were they able to blow off and rationalize "grab them by their p***y's" and 14 or so women coming forward with sex assault stories against Trump? Seems like a large part the latter. I suspect from limited conversations I've had that lot of women think that was just "locker room talk" and typical male behavior, at least by the powerful. Or it was just "politics". After all, a lot of white women here rationalized away women coming forward about another recent presidential candidate.

I find the comparisons with the Romney vote interesting. But McCain is left out of this for some reason. Note that white women voted for Trump by a larger margin (9) than McCain (7).

I'm not blowing off the white male vote -- with a 62-31 margin (2:1), I am often thinking when I encounter white men who I don't know their political views, that 2 out of 3 of them voted for the orange creep. And its even worse than that in my higher age bracket -- more like 3 out of 4 or worse.

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Response to progree (Reply #92)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 09:12 AM

95. Some are

and ome are conservatives who would never vote for a Democrat regardless.

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 07:41 PM

54. Your "logic" is baffling. Why would you let white men

Off the hook for being even MORE likely to vote for Trump than white women? What they did in the past is completely irrelevant. Your statement is quintessential sexism.

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Response to spooky3 (Reply #54)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 09:02 PM

64. White women didn't support their own race/gender for president. Instead...

they voted for a raging misogynist who bragged about sexual assault.

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #64)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 09:20 PM

67. Why do men have any less of an obligation to

Vote against, call out, etc., sexism? Is it up to blacks but not whites to object to racism?

No one here should buy that argument.

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #8)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 08:24 PM

61. Why not just direct it to people that voted for Trump

Making it about race doesn't help.

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Response to whopis01 (Reply #61)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 09:04 PM

65. Avoiding the truth hurts the cause.

We need to understand and figure out how to get White women to support women for office.

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #65)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 09:20 AM

96. Most of those 51% would likely support a Republican woman for president

They aren't going to abandon ideology and issue concerns because the candidate is female, no more than I would vote for Sarah Palin because of her gender.

Clinton did win married women, which the Democrats have not done in some time. Her lowest showing among the female vote was women without a college education. She won women with a college education but not men with a college education.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #96)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 09:48 AM

99. What are the splits with White women

Clinton did win married women, which the Democrats have not done in some time. Her lowest showing among the female vote was women without a college education. She won women with a college education


Break that down with White women because they are the key to victory at the state and federal levels.

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #65)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 01:41 PM

121. It wasn't because she was a woman, it was because she was Hillary.

Possibly one of the worst candidates we could have offered. I'm willing to look in the mirror for the answer.

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Response to SlimJimmy (Reply #121)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 02:58 PM

126. How about looking at what prompts you to call her

one of the worst candidates ever? That would be actually looking in the mirror.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #126)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 10:50 PM

143. Maybe it's not me that needs to look in the mirror.

I've come to my conclusion based on a very good set of facts. Calling Trump bad is not a winning strategy. Vote for me because I'm a woman is not a winning strategy. We need new direction and new blood in this party. Otherwise, we better get used to losing.

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Response to SlimJimmy (Reply #143)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 07:22 AM

145. What facts?

And what exactly should I examine? That I don't have the right to vote for a qualified, competent candidate with detailed policy positions on a wide range of issues? That the 3.75 million more Democrats who voted for her in the primary should be stripped of our voting rights so that the man you favor doesn't have to face the inconvenience of being accountable to the electorate? Am I supposed to examine the fact that I spent hundreds of hours making phone calls and knocking on doors for the Democratic Party rather than repeating false claims designed to contribute to GOP electoral victories? Exercising my constitutional voting rights and volunteering for my party: Those are the sins I need to atone for?

Clinton didn't run on simply being a woman. She had a robust set of policy positions, https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/
Your comments reveal that you couldn't get past her gender to even consider them. You expose yourself by your false claim that she ever assumed that being a woman was enough. Just how is it that you can go through a general election without ever bothering to inform yourself on the candidates policies?

I will not be relinquishing my voting rights to people so utterly unconcerned with policy and whose excuse for analysis involves repeating nonsense they hear on television. You offer no facts because you never bothered to inform yourself on the Democratic candidate's policy positions. You post exemplifies exactly what the author linked in the OP finds so disturbing.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #145)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 09:48 AM

146. Yes, I read those policy positions. Same old tired stuff.

Let's try to move forward as a party instead of clinging to the past. You want to be stuck in gender mode, have at it. I'm moving forward.

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Response to SlimJimmy (Reply #121)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 04:12 PM

130. So you've bought into the trendy and popular, yet unsupported spins by the McCarthyites as well?

So you've bought into the trendy and popular, yet unsupported spins by the McCarthyites as well? I empathize... simplistic commercial branding easily persuades an undisciplined mind.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #130)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 10:47 PM

142. No, I bought into the truth. I watche her campaign.

Her entire message was that Trump was bad. That's not a winning strategy, it's a disaster.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:23 PM

9. she is the most popular woman in the world until

she runs for office. hmmm. how could that be?

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Response to mopinko (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:25 PM

11. Excellent point. People are forgetting how popular she was before she ran for president

and the McCarthyism began.

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Response to StevieM (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:28 PM

12. Even after her first run

while she was Secretary of State she had high approval ratings.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:39 PM

18. That was what I was referring to. HRC finished up as Secretary of State with sky high job approval

and favorability numbers.

It is amazing how that has just been totally written out of the history books.

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Response to StevieM (Reply #18)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 11:55 AM

110. Yes, I remember that. Media cooperated at that time--I remember plenty

Of positive press. And press is what we really rely on here in the land of media facilitated appearances.

Also, I don't get why no one here is counting in Russian and down-home-GOPee hacking, manipulation, suppression, and all of that.

Nearly 3million votes for Hillary not counted? There's a lot more support for her among the ppl than we're Accounting for.

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Response to StevieM (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:34 PM

16. same thing happened when she ran for senate.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:24 PM

40. I think we know who to thank for all the negatives about Hillary.

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Response to leftofcool (Reply #40)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 07:12 PM

50. honestly, it is a long list.

this was just the culmination of a decades long vendetta.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #9)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 12:31 AM

84. The world doesnt much matter

How popular was she in the USA?

And how did she achieve that after decades of negative press coverage?

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Response to quakerboy (Reply #84)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 10:25 AM

104. true but

easier in other places where they still have actual working, free press.

which came first? popularity or negative press? it was her husband who was the original target, then her.
and again, she won.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #104)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 03:15 AM

144. Negative press came first, at a guess

Seeing as I recall my dad despising Hillary before Bill was even out of his first primary.

Im just saying.. We here in the US are pretty USA centric, and generally dont seem to give much of a thought to what the rest of the world thinks of anyone or anything

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Response to quakerboy (Reply #144)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 12:17 PM

149. the arkansas project came first.

not sure when that started exactly, but it had to have been going by the time bill was re-elected.
plus the rampant sexism that she faced. same crap as now, her hair, her name, her clothes, her voice, her job, her husband, her daughter, her dog and cat, ffs. instinctual behavior imho, but that is another thread.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #149)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 04:31 PM

152. Yup

I think that was honestly the biggest different between the president's run and Hillary's.

The ptb had something like 30 years to smear Hillary. And they used it. By the time she was in the GE, every bit of that came into play.

President Obama on the other hand, burst onto the scene with what amounted to no prep time. Even those of us involved in politics and aware of his existence didn't really see him coming until he was here. They still scrambled and smeared him viciously. But they hadn't had the literal decades to grind it in, so it didn't stick so well.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #9)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 10:13 AM

100. Retired politicians are popular, including men. NT

NT

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:29 PM

13. I still cry. A couple times a week.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:29 PM

14. This...

It crushed a part of my female core to realize that yes, the world at large really does hate women that much.


...hurts.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #14)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:13 PM

29. remember where hate springs from

fear.

fear fuels hate. the patriarchy does NOT want to grant equality to women and live in a just world. the fear is that the world will be so much better when that day arrives. sadly, long after i'm gone. but if the human race survives, i believe the day will come. don't ask me why, it's a faith thing.

imagine.

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Response to barbtries (Reply #29)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:14 PM

30. Thanks for this, barbtries.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #30)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:18 PM

35. of course sheshe2

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Response to barbtries (Reply #29)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 09:44 PM

68. YES!

barbtries - I think you are on to something here. I have long believed that hatred of women comes from deep seated fear. Recently, on a particularly sad post election day, I suggested to my husband that if and when women finally, legally, get to control their reproductive health, we will control the conversation and that is scary shit to a lot of people.

I remember back in the 80's when I was a twenty-something, my mother told me that our fight as women wasn't over. I didn't believe her at the time. I thought she was being dramatic. Now I know that she was right. I'm so sorry I didn't hear her.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:36 PM

17. Thank you, BB..

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:50 PM

21. I honestly haven't had much time to process all the emotions.

Teaching, you have to care, but not melt down in front of the kids. I'm hoping for a good opportunity for an ugly cry when the holidays finally start.

When I got to the door to go teach that first morning, I just thought--I will get through this day because every woman has faced having to live life after the most disgusting and undeserved humiliations, and carry on despite disappointment and failure. We have had to become experts.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #21)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:25 PM

41. I haven't really cried

a couple of tears when I saw Kate McKinnon sing Hallelujah. I don't know if I will because it's been a long time since I've cried much.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:51 PM

22. I love this piece

So true

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:01 PM

24. i'm still grieving. hillary spent her

entire life helping people. she was more than qualified and she got a kick in the ass.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:07 PM

25. I'm still grieving too

and I will NEVER allow myself to call this situation normal. I wake up every morning with a pit in my stomach and an ache in my heart and head. But I'd rather live with that than to get to acceptance. I will always RESIST.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:09 PM

26. I am not a woman but I also took this loss personally

I am the father of two daughters and I will never forget or forgive this loss

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #26)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:10 PM

27. .

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #26)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:18 PM

33. i'm hoping that when we go march in DC on 21 Jan,

2 of my sons will come along. My oldest son was mad because his wife and i went full speed ahead on the plans and he wasn't consulted enough. so i sent him an email with links to the march, and i said to him, I would love it if you came and marched with us. It has always been my belief that women's liberation is everyone's liberation.

i was 18 in 1973, considered myself a feminist at least since that time. it is a fucking kick in the ass that we still must litigate this. same with civil rights, history repeating itself and it's so damn wrong and unnecessary!

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #26)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 07:50 PM

57. I am the mother of two sons, Gothmog

and I, and my boys, are right there with you.

Two draft age sons, I might add. I will never forgive or forget.

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #26)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 04:42 PM

132. Thank you.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:12 PM

28. Pantsuit Nation has saved me emotionally

The stories and the diversity and the sheer numbers gives me a lot of strength

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #28)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:15 PM

31. Pantsuit Nation is fantastic

and very different from so much of what we read here on DU.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #31)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:26 PM

42. Yeah the nonsense that gets posted here is nothing like the reality

Of thousands of actually Hillary supporters supporting one another. So many stories of outright bigotry--then I come here and get told bigotry is some sort politically gestalt that will fix itself with the right economic approach.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:19 PM

36. Everytime I look at her I cry and say what could have been.

 

It hurts.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:20 PM

37. I will never forget and I will never

forgive ANY Trump voters. But white females are the ones who gave me the deepest cuts of all.



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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:23 PM

39. the bar was higher for Hillary than all previous candidates combined

oh yes

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:29 PM

43. I still cry . . . a little every day. I just can't believe that people I know voted for that orange

ass! I want to call them on it but they seem to ok with a the shit he and his kids have done since he won! Nothing to see here . . . No conflicts of interest . . . No draining the swamp . . . who cares if Russia messed in our elections . . . Nothing seems to matter. I pray that the Democrats do not cooperate . . . stonewall - the way they treated President Obama and his family for the past 8 years is beyond disgusting! I want Hollywood to ignore him . . . Designers not to dress her . . . News and entertainment reports to ignore them - they beg for fame - we need to starve them out! But more than anything we need to find someone within enough money to help establish voting machines in minority precincts make sure the vote is properly counted - we don't lose elections they are taken from us!

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:29 PM

44. Thank you, BB.

K&R

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:33 PM

45. Male, here. And this post hits me hard.

I've been a feminist since my teens -- I saw the Billie Jean King/Bobby Riggs match, listened to the crap that was being spewed all around me, and changed.

She was going to be an EXCELLENT world leader. She was going to help.

But the same forces that were spewing the same crap back in the 60's and 70's have hijacked reality yet again. There's going to be a significant body count this time, if we survive as a species. It was the worst possible decision for a nation to make.

All because of deeply-held cultural misogyny. Misogyny so deeply embedded that it even sweeps up many women themselves in its dark primitivism.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:54 PM

46. I have not cried much since the first week, because I have no one to cry with. I'll try the 101...

Really, the place that hears my screams is my car, on the 101.

I had an experience that is probably related, now that I think about it. I got a jury summons, and when I went last Tuesday it was for a rape. Well, 2 rapes, and I remembered it from the newspaper. Those who wanted to be let off were told to stay and those of us who didn't think we would be were told to return in a week, i.e. yesterday.

Women I had not though of in years came into my mind during that week. The 14 year old who told me (then also 14) that she had been raped at age 7. The woman in college who told me she got up at about 2 or 3 a.m. to let out the cat, and the next thing she knew she had a pillowcase over her head. The woman who told me, when our firstborns were still toddlers, that she had been raped at 16 or 17 (I don't remember which) and had gotten pregnant. That one really stuck with me because she had left home early because her father kept backing her into corners and grabbing her breasts. When she realized she was pregnant from a date-rape, she told me she'd gotten an abortion, but because they weren't available in Colorado she'd gotten on an airplane and to that day could not remember where she'd gone to get it. This year, my daughter's ex-roommate, who is a lesbian...

I think of myself as a rational person, good on a jury, but I felt utterly overwhelmed. The night before I could not sleep for thinking of those women.

When it came time to state whether I thought I could be objective, and whether any of the questions on the questionnaire indicated I could not, I asked for that private conference the judge had offered. In the waiting area I chatted with a neighbor but felt my stomach clench and clench and clench. Finally I was called in to speak. "Number 5," I said. "I was the victim of a crime myself: I was sexually abused as a child." Over the judge saying, "We don't need that detail," I was already saying, "I know 4 women who've been raped. I could not sleep last night." He dismissed me "for cause," and I left, thanking whatever gods and goddesses might be that I would not have to sit through the graphic details.

How does this relate to what happened on Election Day? It was not linked in my conscious mind, but the deep psyche knows.

It knows.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #46)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 07:10 PM

49. Thank you for sharing this, Hekate.

Yes, our unconscious minds are responding to DT, and we all see him as he is.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #46)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 07:23 PM

53. I have similar stories. Almost all the women I have known have told me of abuse and

rape in their lives. Many times family. My own was when I was 3 and a half years old. Then something like this election happens and you really, down in your gut see how society sees women. less than.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #46)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 09:26 AM

98. I think of the second debate

after the Access Hollywood Tape came out, when he invited the women Bill had had affairs with and then proceeded to stalk Clinton around the stage. I found the debate painful to watch and couldn't sleep that night. I then learned a number of women had similar reactions. We had been watching a sexual predator and it triggered a deep sense of unease. Now that man is about to become president. It's too awful to be true, yet it is.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 07:02 PM

47. K&R

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 07:06 PM

48. Yes. Because it means that even the most despicable, least qualified, vilest

male nominee in US history can triumph over an extremely well qualified, dedicated, and hard working woman.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 07:19 PM

51. How come other countries can have female leaders, but not us?

 

Very annoying.

Not that Thatcher was any gem, but even the PAKISTAN, for crying out loud. Even the Germans!!!

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 07:23 PM

52. The loss will never be regained; the injury will never heal.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 07:46 PM

55. It hits me like that too

I blew up at my husband about something trivial last night and broke down crying. It took me a little while to realize why.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 07:47 PM

56. There certainly was sexism and misogyny

Involved in this election, but something which I think is unique to American politics is that many people are put off by a woman displaying ambition, especially in public. Hillary was appointed Secretary of State, RBG, Sotomayor, Kagan were all appointed to the Supreme Court, all enjoying high approvals. Hillary running a long campaign looks like naked ambition to regressives and in a way which does not in a male. That said, she's at 2.6 million more votes (and counting) than Cheeto. . . . . .

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 07:57 PM

59. It has been said that depression is anger turned inward.

I think it applies here. Depressed? Decide you are not going to take bullshit anymore. Call out every misogynist bastard, assert yourself. Not meanly, but firmly.

Be demure? Get along at all costs? Be sweet? Kiss my ass demure, be strong, be yourself, call out inequities.

Are we done being " pussies"? Oh yeah , we are done being pussies of the certain kind Twitler can grab.
We need to be the kind that when he reaches, we gnarl his hand off.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 07:59 PM

60. And yet, the fascist-elect won with the votes of a lot of Republican women???

I can't fathom how ANY WOMAN voted for this disgusting misogynist. If you know women that voted for him, WTF was their rational?

On the OP, I deeply empathize and as the father of a very independent minded woman in her 20's, fear for how this administration will continue to marginalize woman.

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Response to RiverStone (Reply #60)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 10:04 PM

69. I know there are women in my family who voted for him who are manipulated by FOX News.

One thinks Bill O'Reilly is non-partisan because that's what he claims he is via his "no spin zone" gimmick. They are angry with me for being angry with those who voted for him.

Many won't admit voting for him though. Deep down they know he is out of bounds and wreckless. Three in my immediate family were incensed by my Facebook condemnations of his supporters. My emotions have been out of control the past 3 months. The more he maneuvered around the serious questions of his qualifications and lack of transparency, the more I then took it out on those who I knew were so opposed to "Crooked" Hillary. I know that was not a useful way to turn them, but that is how I responded to his racist outbursts and misogyny constantly broadcast on MSNBC. But how does one not see through his con games?

(BTW, looking for a diversion on the Food Network, I came across a competition named "Cooks vs Cons". Remember when it once had shows that taught you how to cook? I tell you, con men are taking over the whole country. Scamming is the industry of the 21st century.)

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Response to RiverStone (Reply #60)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 08:19 AM

94. any Woman?

 

After Fuckump mocked the disabled journalist, how can anyone vote for him....

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 08:52 PM

63. Thank you for this thread

I'm probably repeating what was already said, but what bothers me the most and is deeply disturbing is how the element of misogyny is being deleted for many analysts and people, just taken out of the equation as if it didn't happen. This really brought up past experiences that I've struggled to get over and had to get over mostly alone. And that brick wall or glass ceiling that just got hit is likely to come with major losses of what has been gained by women. I feel so very sick about that. And I resent all the people who do it, even when they are hating that Trump won the election. Today is especially bad given the federal judge's reversal of the earlier ruling to recount in MI. I talk to people every day who see no problem, Trump is a little different, but they are hopeful that this will be good. Then there are those who are horrified by Trump. I think those who see through Trump of the people around me see the misogyny more than those who analyze for a living. Just feeling sad.

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Response to fallrey (Reply #63)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 01:33 AM

86. It really has

And some are deeply invested in denying it.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 09:10 PM

66. How many men out there never grew up?

I know there are many mature, competent, responsible, compassionate males. But there appear to be none who identify as Republican. Those conservatives who warned against Trump are in hiding today or are targeted for retribution. He'll, if you don't sing "his" praises

Our bank experience shows me that the men working the loans and managing the branch are inept and unwilling to even try to appear competent. The two woman who are identified as "relationship bankers" are basically doing their PR, while also being familiar with our mortgage, money markets, etc, and advise us.

Rachel Maddow is talking about Peter Thiel and his manifesto bemoaning the loss of "freedom" based on women gaining voting rights. What the hell?

The war between the sexes has just gone nuclear.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 10:09 PM

72. a heartsick k and r for the truth.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 10:09 PM

73. I haven't fully processed everything.

but this article helps me cope. thanks BainsBane.

The loss and all it represents is still raw..

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 10:48 PM

75. ...

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 10:52 PM

76. The glass ceiling is now a titanium lid. A big Russian bear sitting on top

I remember Serghey Lavrov, the Russian ambassador tweeted that "there are too many pussies in this election"
OTOH, my daughter is teaching little kindergarten girls to be kick ass. So...

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)


Response to Name removed (Reply #79)

Wed Dec 7, 2016, 11:53 PM

83. That's a pretty heavy decision to make when you're feeling the raw emotions of a tough election.

And tRump's issue is not that he's a man. There are millions upon millions of wonderful men, they just happen to have more socially progressive views.
I'm sorry for your pain... welcome to DU.

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Response to Name removed (Reply #79)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 05:25 AM

88. .

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 12:32 AM

85. I am so stunned that this happened...

...that I have not even been able to cry yet.

I wake up every morning and say to myself, "This cannot possibly be happening." It is all the more bitter that as fine an individual as President Obama is being followed by the worst of the worst of human dreck that is DFT (Donald Fucking Trump).

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Response to 3catwoman3 (Reply #85)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 05:28 AM

89. I know the feeling. Took me 1 week to squeeze a few tears

when I saw SNL Hallelluja opening. Floodgates still locked in though.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 08:12 AM

93. I am not

 

I am not a woman, but feel for you. I am a believer in equality in ALL aspects of life, but "No, woman, stay in your place. No, woman, you are not good enough. No, woman, no matter what you do, you will not win, you will not be the boss of me." is a phrase you wrote, yet it shows that a large amount of women voted for Fuckump. In my opinion, its hard to fight the good fight, when those who you believe are fighting with you, fight against you. Not just the women who voted against Clinton, but the independents, Bernie or Bust /Stein supporters, etc...

This apsect of equality seems to run in this country and in Islamic countries, yet throughout the world, there have been many women elected as leaders who made things happen, Helle Thorning-Schmidt, Julia Gillard, Golda Mier, Corazon Aquino, Indira Gandhi, etc...

I dont believe its the world that is slapping you down, just some arrogant, sexist Americans.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 09:24 AM

97. I empathize with feeling

and as a man maybe it is impossible for me to ever understand but I do feel that this is the wrong take-away from the election. As painful as the loss is for women, this isn't the bottom line. It may have been a factor but it wasn't the most important one.

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Response to jimlup (Reply #97)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 10:21 AM

102. As much as you believe the feelings of thousands, millions of women are wrong

You aren't the authority on what we are allowed to feel or believe.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #102)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 10:46 AM

107. Good lord

That's like the DU I used to know.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #102)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 11:28 AM

109. Didn't claim to be

but you are not the authority on what I am allowed to feel or believe either.

Further, I think we are making an error if we come to the conclusion that the only reason Hillary lost was because she was a woman.

Take that as you will. I know you'll hate me and think that I'm being sexist, ect but I honestly am not.

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Response to jimlup (Reply #109)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 02:06 PM

124. Your views and experience differ from those of the

Author and many who new responding to this thread as well as the huge number of women ho have expressed similar sentiments all around the country. The author doesn't say it's the only reason Clinton lost. She is talking about how she experienced it. Many of us feel the same way. Obviously you can't have the same experience because you don't know what's like to be treated as less because of gender.

So by all means, you have a right to your interpretation of the election, but to tell women they are wrong to experience it personally is invalidating. Additionally, people seldom acknowledge operating based on prejudice. Not even the Klan admits to being racist, but gender and race biases have tremendous influence on how we see the world around us.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #124)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 02:56 PM

125. I agree that gender and race

bias have a tremendous impact on our society and our politics.

However, in this election, it is my conclusion that it is not the primary reason for Clinton's lose. If we assume that it is, my position is that it will impact our ability to understand the truth which is that the neo-liberal ideas have failed.

Just my opinion and I accept that. I hope we can agree to disagree and move forward because obviously we have major work to do next.

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Response to jimlup (Reply #125)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 04:08 PM

129. So Teachout and Feingold as well as polls indicating terrorism and immigration don't matter?

 

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 10:15 AM

101. Stay strong!

 

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 10:26 AM

105. I'm sorry she lost BainsBane

 

I remember when my preferred candidate lost the primary it was really sad for me too. I also seem to remember you were dancing all over the place.... well at least you don't have to suffer that insult to injury

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Response to GummyBearz (Reply #105)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 12:59 PM

114. I was happy about my candidate's win.

That you think there was something illegitimate about that is unfortunate, as is the fact you find the primary result more troubling than the GE loss. It is fascinating to find out how little policy ended up mattering to some, which makes the article in the OP all the more relevant.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #114)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 05:01 PM

134. I think you misread my post

 

Your op reminded me of how I felt when my candidate lost in the primary. It has nothing to do with legitimacy and I'm not saying the primary was more important either.

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Response to GummyBearz (Reply #105)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 01:03 PM

116. Really? I would take a primary loss to this one a million times over

I sure am glad a Trump win won't affect you all that much. Lucky you.

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Response to kcr (Reply #116)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 01:53 PM

122. That's something, isn't it?

It's sad when people are so focused on the politics of personality over issues and policy.

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Response to kcr (Reply #116)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 05:05 PM

135. I didn't say any of that

 

I was just commiserating with someone who sounded sad by relating a similar feeling I had. Lucky me? Whatever

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 12:53 PM

113. Re: Concerning Men

While I agree with what you posted I am concerned that women will blame all men for their disappointments in life. Well, join the club. As a man, I gave money for the Clinton campaign. I voted for Clinton and hoped she would win the presidency.

I would just respectfully request that women don't throw out the good men with the bad. Also, remember that women also voted for Drumpf.

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Response to StarzGuy (Reply #113)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 01:58 PM

123. I don't think sexism and misogyny

is all about men vs. women. Frankly, some of the worst misogynists I've encountered are women. But even aside from that, the author isn't casting it in the way you fear. She's talking about second-class citizenship, being seen as not good enough. so many women relate to this because we have experienced it often in our lives.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 03:26 PM

127. That's how I feel...like I was slapped in the face.

And for those who said "I want a woman president, just not that woman". Well, don't hold your breath

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 04:47 PM

133. Agreed, but the pioneers pay the price so that their successors will kick the barriers down.

Not to be glib about what happened -- far from it, because I will be heartsick about it for the rest of my life -- but my sanity at present demands that I remind myself that every last bit of progress takes pain of some sort, generally over many years, generally by many leaders, often unacknowledged and unthanked. It's a long-term fight, and we're going to have to pry some greedy fingers off that gavel and that set of keys and that founding document.



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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 05:13 PM

136. Are there any hard data about the impact of the candidates' genders?

 

As you point out in #96, you wouldn't have voted for Palin. My guess is that, if the race had been Sanders versus Palin or O'Malley versus Fiorina, most people would have voted for the same party they actually voted for.

What was the net effect of the first major-party nominee being a woman? My (uneducated) guess is that it moved some votes each way. There were probably lifelong Republican women who would vote for just about any Republican over just about any Democrat, but when they looked at this year's ballot, things changed. They remembered all the times they'd suffered from misogyny. They saw a woman who was trying to break that "highest, hardest glass ceiling". They said to themselves, "You go, girl," and cast their first-ever vote for a Democrat. As against that, there were lifelong Democratic men (mainly older ones), who stated a belief in feminism but had lingering doubts. They thought about a woman as Commander in Chief and worried whether she'd be tough enough to stand up to Putin. They cast their first-ever vote for a Republican.

Which of these groups was larger? I really don't know. It might be hard to get hard data because people would lie about their motivations.

As for Trump's deplorable behavior toward women, it was probably a positive factor with some of his voters, but they were themselves the deplorables who were going to vote Republican in any matchup. For many others (women and men), it was a hold-your-nose thing; they didn't like it but saw other factors as more important. According to the exit poll linked by progree in #58, on the question "does Donald Trump's treatment of women bother you," those who answered "some" still split for Trump by 73% to 20%. Even among those who said "a lot" he got 11% of the vote. If such a voter favored radical deregulation and huge tax cuts for the rich, s/he had no good choice. Vote for a candidate whose personal conduct toward women bothers you a lot, or vote for a candidate whose policies you consider fundamentally wrong.

There's an analogy on our side. The poll asked, "does Clinton's use of private email bother you," and 18% answered "some". Among that group, Clinton won, 68% to 25%. That would be where I was. I thought her email handling was a mistake but I voted for her anyway. My vote doesn't mean that I favor procedures that could evade FOIA and/or endanger classified information. Similarly, a vote for Trump doesn't mean that the voter is on board with Trump's misogyny.

These considerations may or may not be relevant to this author's personal reaction to the outcome. I'm not questioning the legitimacy of her feelings. The open question is how she would have felt if Palin or Fiorina had lost to a man. Would she still have concluded that "the world at large really does hate women that much"? Of course, the parallel is imperfect because the Democratic Party would not have nominated a man of Trump's overt misogyny.

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #136)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 05:42 PM

138. That you equate Clinton's email

With Trump's racism and sexual assaults reinforces the author's argument. That's the sort of false equivalency in which the media engaged.

The media, candidates on the left and right, and some voters degraded an extremely qualified woman candidate. They decided she was dishonest and untrustworthy, not based on evidence but prejudice. I interpret as sexism the fact that so-called progressives held her responsible for her husband's policies and didn't care enough to as much as look at hers. Certainly most conservatives were never going to vote for her, but elements of the white male "left" made her destruction their mission. That they are now using her defeat to argue for the primacy of GOP voters, to the point they argue that abortion rights and "demographic wars" should be abandoned in favor of their interests shows that their concern has never been about progressive policies, which they don't even name, but instead about elevating themselves. They have even posted OPs demanding that those who don't subscribe to their narrow and ahistorical world view leave the party. That some of them ignored policy in favor of their hatred for Clinton, prompting them to vote against the very policies they claim to support, is difficult for me to understand as about much other than sexism. The way in which they transformed campaign finance from a policy position to personal attacks against Clinton and that they see Trump's victory as some sort of triumph in that regard is so devoid of logic that it is impossible to understand without considering sexism.

As for the rest of the Trump voters, a vote for him demonstrated that they were willing to accept sexual assault and racism as the norm. Their votes validated it. This was an election about the restoration of white male supremacy, as we have seen in the rise of hate crimes in its wake.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #138)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 05:59 PM

139. I absolutely do not equate them.

 

I would elaborate but I think it would be a waste of my time. Go ahead and believe any vile thing about me that fits your preconceptions.

Similarly, if you want to rebut the view that abortion rights should be abandoned, you'll have to take it up with someone who actually holds that view. I don't.

That some normally Democratic voters deserted Clinton because of sexism is undoubtedly true, as my post states. I'm glad we agree on that, anyway.

You write, "This was an election about the restoration of white male supremacy...." It's very rare that a presidential election is about any one thing. In this instance, white male supremacy was a factor, along with foreign policy, economics, Islamophobia, and numerous other aspects that could be mentioned.

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #139)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 10:25 PM

141. Sorry Jim Lane but you do argue a false equivalency

and it is all the more irritating in that you couch it in what seems like reason.

Maybe it makes you feel more on top of an analysis to say sexism was a part, but not really a large part, of why Clinton didn't get elected.

To those of us who watched the media coverage and recognized the comments from those high to low who used misogynistic words to dismiss or disparage Clinton, your words do affirm that you just aren't sensitized to this issue sufficiently.

Of course your feelings wouldn't be triggered if you haven't experienced how easy it is to dismiss women and their achievements. But those of us who do experience that all the time will have strong feelings about it.

I wish it were as simple as getting rid of vile thoughts and feelings. Women who care about men for the most part have to learn not to see unthinking misogyny as vile or we couldn't care about the men in our lives. But this was such an exceptional woman and to see her have to deal with subtle to in-your-face-ugly misogyny and to have that prevail was a body blow. It just was and is a body blow.

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Response to fallrey (Reply #141)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 11:04 AM

148. Very true

Thank you for that post and welcome to DU.

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Response to fallrey (Reply #141)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 03:30 PM

150. The key question is how many votes were SHIFTED.

 

I believe, perhaps with a bias arising from my party affiliation, that most of the people who voted against Clinton because she's a woman are already in the Republican Party. In a race between two men, they would have voted for the Republican anyway. (In the hypothetical Sanders-versus-Palin or O'Malley-versus-Fiorina races, who knows? Some would uneasily stick with party while others might let their sexism override other considerations.) Many of them were probably making misogynistic posts on Facebook but their attitudes didn't cost Clinton any votes.

There are also some people who are independent or who tend to vote Republican, but who were influenced to vote for Clinton precisely to smash the glass ceiling. They voted for Clinton but would not have voted for a male Democrat.

In that connection, you mention women who've experienced being dismissed because of sexism, and who therefore "recognized the comments from those high to low who used misogynistic words to dismiss or disparage Clinton...." My speculation is that there was to some extent a backlash. These are the women who, I said, "remembered all the times they'd suffered from misogyny." That's why I said that some women who usually vote Republican defected this year; they voted for Clinton because they empathized with her. Do you think the comments you mentioned had at least some effect of that sort?

If we discount the dyed-in-the-wool sexists who would have voted for a Republican man against any Democrat, we're comparing two groups of swing voters for whom gender was a significant factor -- those voting for Trump, and those voting for Clinton. The net effect on the election depends on which group was larger (and, because of the Electoral College, where they lived). That's why I asked, in my first post in this thread, "Are there any hard data about the impact of the candidates' genders?" We can all speculate about the different factors but it would be nice to have something beyond speculation.

As for my alleged false equivalency, it was actually an analogy. For many voters, neither major-party candidate was perfect. If they're not going to stomp off and vote for a no-hoper Johnson or Stein, then they have to vote with at least some misgivings. People like Bernie Sanders and Ted Cruz criticized their party's eventual nominee during the primaries but then endorsed her or him anyway. Bernie's vote doesn't mean he agrees with Clinton that single-payer health care will never happen. Joe Manchin supported Clinton even though his views on gun control were much closer to Trump's. On the Republican side, some Republicans like Kelly Ayotte were so upset about Trump's attitude toward women that they refused to vote for him (Ayotte said she'd write in Pence), but many others expressed their disgust while voting for him anyway. The analogy here is that you can't pick out any one factor (emails, health care, sexism, gun control, whatever) and say that all 60-some million people who voted for that candidate were completely supportive of that candidate in all respects.

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #150)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 08:03 PM

154. I think you are discounting the effect of the media handling of Clinton's campaign

The reason so many thought they had to "hold their noses" while voting for Clinton had to do with her being smeared more than anything. And that had to do with her being a woman. She was the ultimate outsider in that regard, not the ultimate insider.

How many people didn't vote because of that? The media smear really worked to diminish her vote. You could tell just by talking to people. They just couldn't trust her. Why? Media kept calling her untrustworthy.

Maybe you don't see misogyny in that but I sure do and so do many others.

I, along with many women, felt intimidated by all the vitriol and threats. I finally did put up a yard sign and began to reply to online comment sections, but given the number of supporters Clinton had, she didn't get defended enough. I can't take the blame. I can't afford to have my car keyed because I have a sign and Trump supporters might do that. And so it goes.

I just don't understand why you can't see the effect of woman-hating on this election, but I am not surprised because you have a lot of company.

Thank you for the welcome, BainesBane!

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Response to fallrey (Reply #154)

Sat Dec 10, 2016, 07:26 AM

155. I feel frustrated that again words are being put in my mouth (keyboard)

 

You write, "I just don't understand why you can't see the effect of woman-hating on this election...."

What I actually said was that some people did vote against Clinton simply because she's a woman. That's why it's simply not accurate to say that I don't see the effect. What you've added is that other people voted against her because of the coverage and that the coverage was to some extent because she's a woman, and I agree with that, too (although, frankly, Comey's actions would have been reported regardless of whether the Democrat he was undermining was male or female).

What I also see is that the gender factor worked in her favor with other voters. I won't say that I just don't understand why you can't see that effect because you haven't said whether you see it or not.

It would be nice to be able to quantify the net effect. I was hoping someone knew a basis for doing so.

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #155)

Sat Dec 10, 2016, 12:43 PM

156. Last reply on this

Would all that negative coverage have happened and have stuck if Clinton's gender wasn't and hadn't been an underlying rallying point for her attackers over 30 years?

That's where I am not seeing you express an understanding or a feeling for it.

Quantify away. Not convincing.



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Response to fallrey (Reply #156)

Sat Dec 10, 2016, 01:20 PM

157. I'll answer your question

 

You ask, "Would all that negative coverage have happened and have stuck if Clinton's gender wasn't and hadn't been an underlying rallying point for her attackers over 30 years?"

IMO, some of it would have and some of it wouldn't have.

You invite me to "Quantify away." I wish I could. I don't know of any hard data.

By comparison, take the general statement that Trump voters live in their own reality. We have the recent PPP poll showing that, for example, "67% of Trump voters say that unemployment increased during the Obama
administration, to only 20% who say it decreased." We can talk about whether the media were derelict in reporting the facts, or whether Trump voters simply screened out facts that didn't fit their preconceptions, but at least we have some hard data about that aspect of the vote.

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #139)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 11:02 AM

147. I didn't say you wanted to abandon aboriton rights

what I said is some are making the argument that such issues are too divisive. We see one post after another talking about the fight for the soul of the party over "progressive policies" with absolutely no discussion of those policies. Those comments were not meant to be about you personally but about the overall trend I see where those certain they have the key and right to reshape the party reveal that they know absolutely nothing about what Clinton actually proposed.

And you did indeed compare your views of the email situation to Trump's voters reaction to his racism and sexually predatory behavior. You made a direct correlation.

Islamophobia is very much tied to white male supremacy. It's within the general emphasis on America for white people and white men in particular and how racial and cultural others are seen as a threat to white culture.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 04:42 PM

153. On the night of the election

A woman friend of ours came over to watch the returns with us. We had a bottle of bubbly chilling in the fridge. As the night wore on and it became more an more evident that Trump was (gasp) going to win this thing, we two women almost said the same thing at the same time:

How many times have you been passed over for a position that went to a far less qualified male, who also happened to be something of a jerk?


She'd just lost one such job several months earlier, for which she was supremely qualified. It went to a less experienced and qualified younger male.

We couldn't help identifying with Hillary Clinton—the smart, supremely hard working and experienced woman who devoted a lifetime to public service, who lost out to a completely unknowledgeable, inexperienced, vulgar cretin of a guy.

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