Not ready to make nice

[DonCoquixote]

The thing about Obama and Hillary is that, both of them seem to sincerely want bipartisanship. People can debate about the sleaze that subject brings up, but they also seem to genuinely believe that the GOP can see reason and work for the good of the nation.

Most of us here know better. Trump has not only embraced the worst, but now they are openly walking about, willing to hold the supreme court hostage till they get the second coming of Scalia. They simply do not care about Russia ties, or crimes, sexual and otherwise, they just want their tax breaks and the jollies they get frpom oppressing everyone not a white christian male or properly subservient white woman.

Folks, we may need to remind Hillary of this, because they are not ready to make nice, and neither should we. If they are going to invoke the Civil War, we should remind them of Juneteenth and Appomattox. Do I want blood, no? but, if it takes HUMILIATING them, and reminding them that the only thing in the way of disaster is our willingness to hold our fire, then so BE IT! I have no problem breaking an eardrum, or tossing a resume, or making sure that those who embrace Trump have a stain on them, a nice scar that remind people what they sold themselves to. As for the so called "mainstream" they need to own this, because heaven knows if Trump won, they would all be fighting to claim glory and try to get everything they could plunder!

No, we are NOT going to let them on our boat, so that they can take over and play captain. If they act like rats, let them sink like them!

[still_one]

1. I hear you clearly, and that is all good and fine, but first we have to get her in

the White House, and control the Senate, then we can begin to move forward

[pat_k]

21. If we want...

... to win the kind of majorities in the House and Senate that will enable truly transformative change, once we put her in the White House, we need to push her to "Go Big." And she needs to listen.

See my reply to another post below:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=2588782

[Hortensis]

29. Sorry, but DonConquixote is very wrong. Our nation

is divided roughly into people who are hard wired to be either conservative or liberal, becoming every possible mixture of the two.

This is a huge part of why we developed a two-party system that requires both sides to work together to find some middle ground to agree on. Yes, the results are often not terribly satisfying to anyone, but a huge benefit is that it also creates a moderate majority big enough to protect us from destructive extremism from both sides.

Including fascist billionaire schemes to take control. Ultrawealthy right-wing extremists have currently succeeded in breaking our system by dividing us (you know, the united we stand, divided we fall thing?), but they haven't gained control.

But, even without the threat from them, the reality is that no one side can rule. The current viciously partisan electoral attempts at power-grabbing by each side are not just unworkable and unsustainable, but dangerously destabilizing. As we see.

The only way we can regain successful government is by rejecting divisive political bigotry and embracing all those who want to restore our working bipartisan/multifactional majority.

[DonCoquixote]

31. with all due respect

"But, even without the threat from them, the reality is that no one side can rule. The current viciously partisan electoral attempts at power-grabbing by each side are not just unworkable and unsustainable, but dangerously destabilizing. As we see. "

"The only way we can regain successful government is by rejecting divisive political bigotry and embracing all those who want to restore our working bipartisan/multifactional majority."

OK, I am moderating my tone because I do not want you to think I am shouting at you. However, I think you are not seeign certain key factors, which I will point out.

As long as there are Billionaires ready to leak massive amounts of fuel to the GOP, the GOP knows that they will never have to come to this place where they have to even listen to anyone not them. As bas as Trump is, he was at least honest about what he wanted, which made him a big target. The danger will come when you get the more typical GOP that knows the successful Wolf has to wear sheep's clothing. This is where Paul Ryan, Marco Rubio, and John Kasich get to stay in their bunker, get loot from the Addelsons and Koches of the world. Let's also add in the foreign money that, unlike Russian money, will be wrapped in a nice neat little package it would take actual journalists to unwrap (such as Beijing and Riyadh do so well.) As long as the true snipers and irregulars can hide in the hills it will take aggressive action to force them out, anything less will see a repeat of 2000, where W. offered himself as that "compassionate conservative" that was as much as object of hate for the "alt-Right" as Clinton.

I am not saying one side can, or even should rule. While the Chinese and Russians may have done some impressive tricks, they also are little more than dictatorships clothed in silk. When they fall, they fall HARD, especially when the facts their Minsitries of propaganda hide eventually come forth. However, if there is going to be tension between left and right gears, there has to be actual tension, not some professional wrestling sort of fake combat where everyone knows their role and shuts their mouth, to quote the Rock. The fact is, if the Democrats do not put forth a stance that says clearly "We are going to fight to win" then all this noble sentiment tells the GOP is that "hey, we can take the whole loaf, especially as we can snipe at them from up in the hills." That does not mean we have to purge or even demonize, it simply means that we do not go into this going this expecting them to get any more than the 49 percent of the loaf that the loser of the election deserves. We have wanted to start off giving half the loaf form the outset, and then act surprised when we get swiftboated, snipershot, and the GOP runs off with our bread, and whatever they could loot from our bleeding corpse.

There may have been a time when the GOP thought of us as opponent, the boxer at the other end of the ring. Money has changed that, and when we see them replace boxing gloves with brass knuckles, not making an adjustment is not sporting, it is suicide. For those that want an actual clean boxing match, we can have that, but when the Koches and other throw brass knuckles into the ring let us not pretend that most of the folks on the Red Team are playing by the same rules we do.

[pat_k]

34. In short, there can be no bipartisanship...

... with Repubs now in Congress.

You raise something I left out of my response to Hortensis. That truly effective campaign finance reform is one of those "Big Things" I believe the Democratic Leadership must stand up for.

I still hold that it is the strength and courage of conviction demonstrated by going all out, win or lose, to enact legislation that reflects our core principles that will put us on the path to winning the sort of majorities needed to get it done. Things like campaign finance reform and other examples I often cite (Like free college. Like universal healthcare. Like pardons for all who are, or were ever, imprisoned for possession of drugs for personal use. Like restoring the right to vote to all felons. Bottom line: Go Big!)

[pat_k]

33. It is not a left/moderate/right "divide." It's more like this:

There is no "bipartisanship" with right-wingnuts whose only REAL agenda is serving their cronies, feeding the prison industrial complex, elevating those at the top higher, and leaving "the rest" to fend for themselves for the meager "slice of the pie" left

The break down of the electorate is much more like this.

1. Staunch Democrats:
People who will stand strong with Dems no matter what the Dems do.

2. Not Republicans:
People who get out to vote for Dems because Republicans are so much worse. They are at risk for falling into 3. These may not be as strongly "behind" Dems as group 1, but neither are they "moderates" in the sense that they occupy some left leaning/middle ground.

3. Opt Outs:
People who have opted out because they have given up on either party ever doing anything that actually makes a difference.

4. Disenfranchised:
People denied the right to vote for life by their status as felons -- about 4 million nationwide (not a trivial number). And about 30% of the African American male population of Alabama and Mississippi have been disenfranchised. People denied the right to vote by the suppression tactics we are seeing enacted by Republican controlled legislatures.

5. Republican Swing:
People attracted to Republicans primarily because they perceive them as the "strong ones." They go with "Strong and Wrong" Republicans over "Weak and Right" Dems. Many of these would swing to Dems if Dems demonstrated strength and gave them a real choice between Strong and Wrong, and Strong and Right.

Group 5 is not "moderate" in the sense that they subscribe to some ideology in the "middle." It is the strength they see in the right-wingnuts they find most attractive.

6. Knee jerk Republicans:
People who just see themselves as "Republican" and vote that way without much thought. Most of them probably always will. People in this group aren't keen on Trump. Some are "sticking with him," some are opting out or moving to Clinton because Trump is such a horror show. But, currently, aside from their problems with Trump, they go with Republican candidates down ticket. Some would actually start thinking twice if Dems transformed themselves sufficiently to inspire people in groups 3 and 4 to get behind them.

7. Staunch Reps/Dem haters: People whose hatred of Dems is so deep, nothing a Dem could do will ever reach them. Many are far more driven by hatred of Dems feed by the Republican noise machine than the propaganda against reasonable gun control an their commitment to "banning" abortion." (And regarding the latter, they actually have no idea what "banning abortion" would look like. They are generally opposed to incarcerating anybody for violating the "ban." Their position is more "I want it to stop." Instead of "pro-choice" rhetoric, Dems would be much more effective if they focused on the fact that a "ban" won't make it "stop." It will just push desperate women into taking desperate measures that risk death.)

---------------------------------------------------

The current Democratic leadership "strategy" of preemptive surrender ignores the existence of 3 and 4. As a consequence, those groups have just grown larger and larger.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. The Dems are currently trapped by insidious memes and beltway group think..

They will never win a filibuster-proof majority if they don't break free of the "conventional wisdom." They won't win of a vast majority of state administrations and legislatures. If they don't change, they will not gain the power necessary to create a far more equitable nation over the coming decades.

Unless they see the light, they will not even weld the power they do gain. (Just as they refused to use the power they had to filibuster Alito.) For example, mass incarceration is the most recent, destructive, insidious, systematic, method to keep African Americans and other POC "down." With the presidency, Hillary would gain the power of the pardon, and could use that power to mark the beginning of the of end mass incarceration. But unless she "sees the light" she isn't going to do it. But if she did, that would be truly informational change. If she used the power of the pen to decriminalize possession of drugs in quantities that were clearly for personal use, it would not be difficult to make the case that the billions saved must be shifted into treatment. Successfully shifting from incarceration to treatment would be extremely likely. When confronted with a new reality, even racists would go for it out of a belief "something" needs to be done about "those people" who are being released from prison.

But I digress. Bottom line: if Dems continue to be blind to the fact that standing strong and committing to an all out fight for the "Big Stuff" is a "WINNING" strategy, we will continue our downward slide.

All that said, there are encouraging signs of change. I will never give up on "them" because I will never give up on "us." I will never give up on our ability to either "get through" to them, or replace them.

What will it take for me to believe Hillary is starting to get it:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=2593212

[Glamrock]

2. Hear, hear!

However, I don't believe she'll go along with that shit as long as Obama did.

[BlueCollar]

5. AMEN....n/t

[William769]

6. I have not wanted to make nice with them since the Impeachment of President Bill Clinton.

That was the biggest circus America has ever had (not counting this election cycle).

[pat_k]

8. There can be no "bipartisanship" with right-wingnuts

The Dems notion that "pivoting to the middle" or declaring intention to "reach across the aisle" is somehow a "winning strategy" is one of the most misguided and destructive notions the DC Dems have every had.

And they are so damn committed to the insanity.

As the Repubs have been racing toward looney town, the Dems just keep chasing after them to "stay in middle."

One problem. They've completely lost sight of the liberal/progressive starting point that supposedly anchors the "spectrum."

And, fighting for "something I think the Republicans will let me do" is not particularly inspiring.

American's are desperate for representatives who inspire us and show us we can "make dreams come true." Like free college. Like universal healthcare. Like pardons for all who are, or were ever, imprisoned for possession of drugs for personal use. Like restoring the right to vote to all felons. Go Big!

What people want is someone who says "Hey, Join Me! I will fight to get you a whole loaf of bread. I can't do it alone. Elect the others who are committed to getting a whole loaf and we will make it happen.

What Dems give us are so called "leaders" who tell us, "Hey, Join Me! I can, perhaps, get four slices of that loaf you wanted... Or... eh... seems 'the other side' says four is too many, but, hey, well, get behind me and I'll 'reach across the aisle' and get you one slice (maybe, if it's a really small slice)."

As Lewis Rothschild put it (character in "The American President," 1994):

People want leadership, Mr. President, and in the absence of genuine leadership, they'll listen to anyone who steps up to the microphone. They want leadership. They're so thirsty for it they'll crawl through the desert toward a mirage, and when they discover there's no water, they'll drink the sand.

Trump could never have arisen, had the Dems not left such a giant vacuum.

So, what now?

Step 1, elect Hill;

Step 2, fight like hell to make her see she must "Go Big." Help her realize it's futile to "reach out" to the destructive obstructionists known as House and Senate Republicans. Help her see we are out here, and that there are so many others who would be inspired to act, if she just stopped with the "bipartisan" crap, and went all out for some big things, and called on us to help her purge the House and Senate of any who are determined to stop us in 2018.

[bushisanidiot]

10. Trust. Hillary knows exactly what shes doing. She is more qualified

Than anyone to sit in that oval office chair. She is a tough cookie who can play hard, but she will play them to get what she wants before resorting to hardball.

I fully trust her judgement on negotiations with the Rs. We just have to keep in mind that she doesn't have short term goals in mind for us. They are long term goals so things need to happen in a way that the work cannot be undone with the stroke of a pen after she leaves office.

[ProudProgressiveNow]

13. Well said. nt

[pat_k]

19. We've got to elect her...

... but there is no denying that she subscribes to the destructive Democratic principles of "practicality," "pre-emptive surrender," and "Can't win; so don't fight."

See post #8 and #15

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=2586646

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=2588782

[DonCoquixote]

25. short term leads to long term

Whatever progress we got , we got by making a series of little, small victories that added to a big one. Yes I know she does think long term, but part of that long term has to be establishing one thing: now GOP, you cannot keep doing an end run around the fact you LOST the White House, and because of that, you will not be able to expect getting the larger half of the loaf.

Part of the problem is the fact that Many on the "centre-right" side do not want to give the working/poor class a slice any more than the GOP does, and those are the people that expect to be the first listened to, even if, as DWS showed, their advice came very close to crashing us into the ditch! Hillary WANTS a strong Mid-Term 2018 as part of the long term strategy, and if she wants that, she will not follow the DWS/DLC recipe that has made us hemorrhage Senators, Governors, and Congresspeople. THAT, is long term.

It is one thing to trust Hillary, but not to the point where you do not make your expectations CLEAR, and not to the point where you enter the playing field expecting the other team to dominate at first. You purposefully demand more than what you can get, because that is exactly what the GOP did, and it got them enough power to hamper Obama.

[UCmeNdc]

14. Agree!

Being nice to Republicans is a waste of time.

They want to bury you. You have to bury them. Gain their respect.

[BSdetect]

16. Go nuclear in the Senate. They are beyond redemption.

I'd love to see that little shit blob Mitch get really put down in his place.

He should be used as a punching bag in the gym.

[pat_k]

24. Absolutely. Demonstrations of real strength...

... and a willingness to fight for truly transformative change, win or lose. That is the only way to inspire those who have given up because "nothing really changes" to get back into "the game." It is the only way to win back the kind of majorities needed to enact "big things."

Bill Clinton got it right when he said:

When people feel uncertain, they'd rather have somebody that's strong and wrong than somebody who's weak and right.

And I would add, "Strong and Right" beats "Strong and Wrong" every time.

It is tragic that Bill Clinton, and now Hillary Clinton, themselves have failed, and continue to fail, to act in accord with those words.

We must put her in the White House. But once we get her there, we need to push her, and our so-called "leaders" in the House and Senate, to demonstrate strength and conviction to core principles.

And if, despite the odds, the psychopathic narcissist manages to win, the Democrats might as well go all out. Make it a REAL battle of ideas. Fight for things like universal healthcare; publicly funded college for all. Fight to REALLY do something about mass incarceration and the damage it has done -- pardons for every person currently imprisoned for possession of drugs for personal use; a clean record for those previously convicted for possessing a quantity that clearly qualifies as "personal use"; restoration of the vote for felons. Hell, if the Repubs try to lower taxes for the rich, don't just try to limit the decrease, go all out to kill it. Shame them. Go all out for a basic income. Put the case that we can become a moral, just, and equitable nation front and center. Commit to fighting to the finish, win or lose.

Who knows, perhaps more Dems will come to "see the light" if enough of use push hard enough.

We can, and will, mount the best "ground game" possible to win back the House and Senate. But, if we don't see a willingness to "Go Big" from the top, those who have opted out in apathy will not be inspired to get back into the game. If the Democrats stay on the incremental and practical path, it will severely undermine any chance we might have.

[MyNameGoesHere]

26. Playing nice to evil never works out

http://www.storybookcastle.com/stories/stories/?source_file=the_peasant_the_snake_and_the_fox

[ericson00]

45. to the alt-right types, I agree. But a substantial portion, if not most of the GE Trump voters,

not his primary voters, are just your standard vote-for-R-next-to-name people.

There definitely are issues that could find bipartisan support, both in terms of government, and regular voters. Of course tho, not everyone will be pleased, but if Trump's rise has taught anything, how "divided" people are on certain issues truly matters.

[DonCoquixote]

48. which means that when the "sensible people"

"but if Trump's rise has taught anything, how "divided" people are on certain issues truly matters."

When the "sensible people" tell those a bit to the left to shut up, or to please please please consider just a tiny little social security cut to make the rich people happy, they will need to be reminded that they need the votes of their left just as badly as those "independent voters" who always vote the R. If Trump's rise has taught anything, it is that yes, there is a base, and if that base gets mad enough, they can and will run over the established, the same way Jeb, Marco and Kasich were left with their faces in the wet cement. Yes, Hillary was a victory for the centre, but she only was able to keep going after she finally addressed TPP, Keystone, and Police violence in a way that, while not enough, at least showed she was willing to listen to and act on those concerns. Please remember this between 2016and 2018, when we need to win in Congress, and we know that what we have been trying is NOT working.

PS: The blueprint for the midterms better not be the one used by now deposed Debbie Wasserman Schultz. I see this as thanks to cutting of funds, she might help Marco Rubio get a second term in the senate.

[Blaukraut]

46. Nothing but complete and utter annihilation of the GOP as it's constituted right now will do

I've been watching their descent into madness for the last 20 some years and I've seen enough. Hell, I was fed up 16 years ago. These people have no redeeming qualities. Sorry to say so. They're either greedy, heartless, or stupid, or all of the above. There i no help for those who don't want to be helped. Fuck them.

[DonCoquixote]

49. Normally I would have hated to say that

I will admit, occasionally there has been an R that was not bad, but the fact is the whole party has embraced the disease. Even the "left" of the Republicans embraces the no holds barred, "let the big dogs eat" strain of capitalism that has done a lot of damage, to say nothing of the kowtowing to the Theocratic Right Churches. They need their age wandering in the wilderness, but we need to realize they will not even get to that point if we allow the Koch Brothers and their ilk to send out the lifeboats.

Sink the lifeboats, start aggressive from the second the bell rings, draw blood and loosen teeth!

[Blaukraut]

50. Exactly! Let's not normalize them by reaching across the aisle. The GOP needs a total overhaul.