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Mon May 30, 2016, 09:48 AM

 

I vote for values and not based on labels. My vote can still be earned.

The Democratic Party is fractured differently this cycle.

In 2008, the split between Hillary and Obama was a bit more personal (meaner) but less ideological (Obama held few political views that seemed anathema to Hillary supporters).

Likewise, in 2004, there were some ideological divisions early in the campaign (thanks to Dennis Kucinich and, on a few issues, Howard Dean), but by March there were no raging policy divisions separating the main contenders.

Neither Kerry nor Obama faced an ideological schism.

This time, there is an ideological split. This split is as wide as the Gore-Nader division, but Sanders isn't going to mount a third-party challenge and, while I anticipate Jill Stein will surprise with a perfomance that will shock many, she won't approach Naders' level of success.

So we have a fracture, but it is not beyond fixing.

Hillary needs to show leadership if she is going to fix this fracture, and Trump will beat a fractured Democratic Party if she fails.

Hillary should embrace populist rules and DNC leadership reform and a decidedly progressive platform at the convention rather than resisting them, she should pick a liberal running mate and actively solicit Sanders' input on the decision, and she should offer whatever compromises at the convention she must to get the Sanders-led movement behind the campaign to take the Senate back and reinvested in the Democratic Party which so many feel has left them.

It is not too late to fix this, but it will not be easy, and it will take leadership unlike any we have seen so far.

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Reply I vote for values and not based on labels. My vote can still be earned. (Original post)
Vote2016 May 2016 OP
Trust Buster May 2016 #1
B Calm May 2016 #3
Trust Buster May 2016 #4
Attorney in Texas May 2016 #7
B Calm May 2016 #10
highprincipleswork May 2016 #54
Trust Buster May 2016 #11
Attorney in Texas May 2016 #16
Trust Buster May 2016 #19
Attorney in Texas May 2016 #25
Trust Buster May 2016 #28
Attorney in Texas May 2016 #33
Trust Buster May 2016 #35
Attorney in Texas May 2016 #39
Trust Buster May 2016 #44
bettyellen May 2016 #56
Triana May 2016 #40
Trust Buster May 2016 #46
Triana May 2016 #50
Trust Buster May 2016 #53
Vote2016 May 2016 #13
Trust Buster May 2016 #20
Vote2016 May 2016 #23
Trust Buster May 2016 #24
Vote2016 May 2016 #27
Trust Buster May 2016 #31
Attorney in Texas May 2016 #34
Trust Buster May 2016 #38
B Calm May 2016 #8
Attorney in Texas May 2016 #18
Attorney in Texas May 2016 #5
Trust Buster May 2016 #6
Attorney in Texas May 2016 #9
Trust Buster May 2016 #12
Vote2016 May 2016 #14
Trust Buster May 2016 #15
Attorney in Texas May 2016 #21
Trust Buster May 2016 #22
Attorney in Texas May 2016 #26
Trust Buster May 2016 #29
Triana May 2016 #47
Trust Buster May 2016 #51
Armstead May 2016 #32
Triana May 2016 #48
Attorney in Texas May 2016 #2
Tierra_y_Libertad May 2016 #17
Buns_of_Fire May 2016 #41
mac56 May 2016 #30
Attorney in Texas May 2016 #36
YouDig May 2016 #37
Vote2016 May 2016 #42
YouDig May 2016 #43
Vote2016 May 2016 #52
nadinbrzezinski May 2016 #45
seabeyond May 2016 #49
Vote2016 May 2016 #57
seabeyond May 2016 #58
Vote2016 May 2016 #60
NorthCarolina May 2016 #55
jwirr May 2016 #59

Response to Vote2016 (Original post)

Mon May 30, 2016, 10:11 AM

1. Hillary will do no such thing. The winner does not adapt to the loser.

 

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #1)

Mon May 30, 2016, 10:15 AM

3. If she wants any chance of winning the GE, she better.

 

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Response to B Calm (Reply #3)

Mon May 30, 2016, 10:17 AM

4. Sorry, adapting to the radical fringe will not win a GE. History shows us as much.

 

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #4)

Mon May 30, 2016, 10:22 AM

7. When you call 46% of the party the "radical fringe," it says something about the size of your tent

PS - Anyone who refers to the FDR-Sanders-Warren wing of FDR's party as the "radical fringe" should immediately forfeit the right to post anything under the name "Trust Buster."

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Reply #7)

Mon May 30, 2016, 10:25 AM

10. I remember a time in DU they would have been labeled as a disrupting

 

freeper and tombstoned.

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Response to B Calm (Reply #10)

Mon May 30, 2016, 12:19 PM

54. I remember a time they would have been clearly seen as the center of the Democratic Party, and those

 

who support Hillary Clinton would be Republicans.

By the way, that was also a time when Democrats held the majority in both houses for the better part of many decades.

Compare that to the shitty results since the DLC, Chicago School of Economics, Neoliberal policies, and the Clintons invaded the Democratic Party. Really, really dismal, extremely spotty results.

So there!

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/05/new-imf-paper-challenges-neoliberal-orthodoxy.html

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Reply #7)

Mon May 30, 2016, 10:27 AM

11. A group that attacks anyone who realistically believes that compromise in a divided government

 

is a necessity is fringe by definition. General elections are won by the candidate who captures the voting demographic in the political center. Don't expect to see Hillary do any more than patronize the fringe Left. That's all.

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #11)

Mon May 30, 2016, 10:56 AM

16. "Compromise" is something that happens in negotiation. It is "capitulation" when you adopt your

compromise position before the negotiations begin.

If Hillary agrees with you, it will be a very good year for Jill Stein, and if Hillary agrees with me, it will be a good year for Democrats.

It's not up to me at this stage. I have already made my decision as to what I will need to see to guide my presidential vote.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Reply #16)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:00 AM

19. I assure you that Hillary agrees with me. You can vote for Jill Stein if you want.

 

After all, isn't that the way political fringes end up going anyway ?

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #19)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:25 AM

25. I'll vote for Hillary or not depending on the convention and the platform and the ticket. Period.

It's not complicated like it would be if I lived in Florida. I've never not voted for Democratic presidential nominee, but Ill go another direction if the platform adopts the neocon agenda vis-a-vis Israel and fails to repudiate the neoliberal agenda vis-a-vis trade agreements and minimum wage and Wall Street/banking regulation and private prisons and fossil fuel extraction.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Reply #25)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:33 AM

28. I don't think you understand what a platform is.

 

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #28)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:38 AM

33. Having served on the platform committee,I might have a fair understanding.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Reply #33)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:42 AM

35. Then you should be well aware the the DNC will call for a living wage. They won't assign a specific

 

wage. You should know that the DNC will not call for single payer because that would represent a party wide rebuke of President Obama's signature legislation. They will not single out private prisons. A platform is meant to communicate general principals. I think Sanders and his supporters are in for more heartache.

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #35)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:45 AM

39. So Hillary was running against the platform when she opposed a $15/hour wage before flip flopping?

Share more of your keen insights, please.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Reply #39)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:50 AM

44. She didn't flip flop on the $15/hr wage. She still supports a $12/hr target. But neither the number

 

12 or 15 will be in the platform. The platform will call for a living wage.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Reply #39)

Mon May 30, 2016, 01:03 PM

56. 12$ is more than Sanders was pushing for two years ago! 12$ has big support in

 

The Senate, 15$ does not. Like his statements supporting abortion on demand up till birth, he is making OTT stances that no one actually supports him on. He can't get anywhere with no support.

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #11)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:46 AM

40. "compromise" and DLC centrist bullshit is why we're in this mess

 

Hillary should show solid movement AWAY from this and toward more progressive DNC rules and policies if she's what we need as a candidate.

Trouble is, she isn't. She's exactly the WRONG candidate for 2016.

Few people are interested in her "incrementalism".

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Response to Triana (Reply #40)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:52 AM

46. That's what the Tea Party says about Republicans. That's why our Legislative Branch is in a

 

state of paralysis. You wish to double down in all your sanctimonious splendor. That will achieve nothing.

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #46)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:56 AM

50. Actual Democrats like Sanders and his supporters are not "Tea Party"

 

Tea Party were a loud minority - ever see their "rallies"? I hate to break it to you but Sanders and his supporters are almost half of the electorate and his rallies are HUGE - everywhere. That's no minority.

#CLUE.

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Response to Triana (Reply #50)

Mon May 30, 2016, 12:02 PM

53. I've seen his rallies. They're always held in and around college campuses. He fills these students

 

with empty promises. The Tea Party is very similar to Sanders and his supporters in temperament. It's their way or the highway. No compromise is acceptable. Those that disagree with them are labeled as something less than American. Both sides will fail. The center has always maintained control throughout U.S. history and the current U.S. will be no different. Time and history is not your friend in this imbroglio.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Reply #7)

Mon May 30, 2016, 10:44 AM

13. That person should " forfeit the right to post anything under the name 'Trust Buster'" - lol!

 

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Response to Vote2016 (Reply #13)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:01 AM

20. Ah, you want to be a DU censor, huh ?

 

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #20)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:13 AM

23. You're hillarous! If you're a paid troll, you are doing it wrong. You're not supposed to be so funny

 

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Response to Vote2016 (Reply #23)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:16 AM

24. You post nothing but insults and are satisfied that this makes you look smart. It doesn't.

 

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #24)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:30 AM

27. Smart is a relative quality. I'm smart compared to some (no names, lol!) but less smart than others

 

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Response to Vote2016 (Reply #27)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:37 AM

31. I've yet tÚ see evidence of that.

 

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #31)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:39 AM

34. You might be the last one in this tread who hasn't spotted that evidence.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Reply #34)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:43 AM

38. Well, I've been a registered Democrat my whole adult life and I support the Party.

 

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #4)

Mon May 30, 2016, 10:22 AM

8. I pray I don't have to say I told you so. But if she has your attitude

 

I am 100% sure I'll have to.

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Response to B Calm (Reply #8)

Mon May 30, 2016, 10:59 AM

18. That Hillary supporter doesn't get it (many are drawn to a familiar label and a familiar name)

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #1)

Mon May 30, 2016, 10:18 AM

5. It that what you learned from Obama in 2008? I saw that a real leader will begin to lead without

the need for victory lap after the primary (which actually works better than a victory lap).

I suspect that Hillary is no more insightful than you (which is why I'm hunkering down for a Trump presidency and a huge progressive resurgence in 2018 and taking back the presidency in 2020).

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Reply #5)

Mon May 30, 2016, 10:20 AM

6. Apples and Oranges. In 2008, Hillary did not represent the radical fringe. Wake up.

 

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #6)

Mon May 30, 2016, 10:25 AM

9. Everyone's awake. The 46% of the party you refer to as a "radical fringe" will vote in November and

you are helping reinforce that the Democratic Party is no longer where they should vote.

I am a down-ballot Democrat, but I have not decided how I will vote at the top of the ticket. Do you think calling 46% of the party a radical fringe moves the ball in the right direction?

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Reply #9)

Mon May 30, 2016, 10:28 AM

12. The center will rule. It always has. Sanders is the epitome of the radical fringe.

 

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #12)

Mon May 30, 2016, 10:46 AM

14. On the populist-elitist scale (and the change-status quo scale), Trump is the center, not Hillary.

 

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Response to Vote2016 (Reply #14)

Mon May 30, 2016, 10:48 AM

15. That makes no sense.

 

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #15)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:08 AM

21. I suspected it might be over your head. Not everyone divides politics into left vs. right. Hillary

is a centrist Third-Way neoliberal on the left vs. right scale for domestic issues (she's firmly on the right for foreign policy issues).

Many voters don't assign their loyalty on a left vs. right scale (which is why there are more independents than Democrats or Republicans). Many f these voters assign their loyalty on a populist vs. elitist scale (and Trump is the centrist on this scale, with Sanders as more of a progressive populist on one side and Hillary as a status quo elitist on the other side). Trump is the centrist on this scale and sh when you say the center wins, you are describing Trump as much as you are describing Hillary and -- between the two candidates -- only one of their two campaigns is in a free-fall death-spiral.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Reply #21)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:11 AM

22. Trump will be a puppet for the far Right. You don't even know what makes the guy tick.

 

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #22)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:27 AM

26. Trump picks more fights with the Republican establishment than Hillary does.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Reply #26)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:35 AM

29. Like I said, you don't understand what makes him tick. He released a list of seven nominees

 

to the Supreme Court. That is just not done by a nominee. Why do you think he did that ?

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #12)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:53 AM

47. According to the rest of the World (outside the US bubble) . . .

 

Sanders is SLIGHTLY left of Center and Clinton is well right of Center. So by normal (not US) standards both are 'Center' candidates if you want to blabber about "center". Hillary is a 1960s Republican. Sanders is an FDR-style New Deal Democrat.

I don't give a damn about the D and the R or the party (which I left back in 2001 to be unaffiliated though I always vote the most progressive candidate on the ballot). I don't give a damn what Hillary calls herself or what Sanders calls himself -- or what you call yourself. I'm old enough to know what a REAL Democrat looks like and what a Republican looks like.

Todays "Democrats" are yesterday's Republicans (except Sanders).

Today's Republicans are yesterday's Fascists.

It's where we are.

If you're about the party as you proclaim to be, then you'd support the ONLY Democrat in the race - Sanders.

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Response to Triana (Reply #47)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:56 AM

51. It doesn't really matter what the rest of the world thinks. They won't be voting in November.

 

I believe the center will hold and successfully fight off attempts from both the far Right and far Left and their radical agendas. On this we will continue to disagree.

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Response to Trust Buster (Reply #1)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:37 AM

32. Jesus Christ. I hope that is not the attitude of the Clinton campaign

 

It might be valid if Bernie had gotten 10 percent of the vote. But close to half the voters have supported him, most of thyem with great enthusiasm.

Damn well adapt to that or get used to saying President Trump, and watch the Democratic Party fade into institutional insignificance.

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Response to Armstead (Reply #32)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:54 AM

48. ^ THIS. n/t

 

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Response to Vote2016 (Original post)

Mon May 30, 2016, 10:12 AM

2. I'm not confident we're going to see that leadership, but it's cool that you remain optimistic

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Response to Vote2016 (Original post)

Mon May 30, 2016, 10:59 AM

17. Meh. They won't even try to earn your vote. And, will blame the left if they lose.

 

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #17)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:48 AM

41. Her acceptance speech would set the tone, for sure.

But so far as being blamed if she loses, that'll be another "meh." What can the left be called that they haven't already been called by the True Believers?

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Response to Vote2016 (Original post)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:36 AM

30. She was the world's foremost diplomat as Secretary of State.

How affirming it would be to see some of that storied diplomacy in use to repair the schism within her own party.

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Response to mac56 (Reply #30)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:42 AM

36. "I dodged sniperfire to broker peace in Bosnia but mean internet posts shut me down in Philadelphia"

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Response to Vote2016 (Original post)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:43 AM

37. So unless your values coincide with Trump, you'll vote for Hillary.

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Response to YouDig (Reply #37)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:49 AM

42. Oh no! When did they eliminate the write-in vote and the Green Party?

 

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Response to Vote2016 (Reply #42)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:50 AM

43. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you wouldn't throw away your vote.

But sure, that's another way you can help Trump win.

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Response to YouDig (Reply #43)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:58 AM

52. For the overwhelming majority of us who don't live in Ohio or Florida, how EXACTLY does voting our

 

conscious help Trump win?

How is voting our conscience ever throwing our vote away? Voting for a candidate who we don't trust and who disparages our values is more of a throw away vote.

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Response to Vote2016 (Original post)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:51 AM

45. Nice to see you are that hopeful

 

I am not

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Response to Vote2016 (Original post)

Mon May 30, 2016, 11:55 AM

49. So, the winner should forgo her voters and adopt all of Sanders stuff to be legitimate? A man making

 

demands of a woman, he would never make of another man.

No.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #49)

Mon May 30, 2016, 02:48 PM

57. No one is making demands. This is how a leader unites I divided party to win. Presumably Hillary is

 

not so arrogant that she learned nothing from Obama.

And if not, she loses and that is regrettable.

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Response to Vote2016 (Reply #57)

Mon May 30, 2016, 02:49 PM

58. Sanders most certainly making demands.

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #58)

Mon May 30, 2016, 03:01 PM

60. Sanders is demanding what he is due from the DNC. If you know of demands to Hillary, you must have

 

special inside information

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Response to Vote2016 (Original post)

Mon May 30, 2016, 12:23 PM

55. Hillary can embrace whatever she wants, but the rub is that if she takes on a populist bent

 

at this late stage of the contest, nobody will buy it and rightfully so.

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Response to NorthCarolina (Reply #55)

Mon May 30, 2016, 03:00 PM

59. No one trusts her. She has little to offer.

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