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Mon May 2, 2016, 01:10 PM

On Thom Hartmann today: "Trump is running to the LEFT of Hillary on Trade"

Hillary supporters throwing Thom under the bus in 3...2...1...



Many of us have said this before and been relentless attacked for it. Trade isn't the only issue btw.

53 replies, 2784 views

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Reply On Thom Hartmann today: "Trump is running to the LEFT of Hillary on Trade" (Original post)
berni_mccoy May 2016 OP
Ferd Berfel May 2016 #1
Baobab May 2016 #10
ieoeja May 2016 #44
Jackie Wilson Said May 2016 #2
berni_mccoy May 2016 #5
Jackie Wilson Said May 2016 #8
berni_mccoy May 2016 #11
Jackie Wilson Said May 2016 #13
berni_mccoy May 2016 #20
pampango May 2016 #23
Jackie Wilson Said May 2016 #24
berni_mccoy May 2016 #36
Jackie Wilson Said May 2016 #51
Armstead May 2016 #26
pampango May 2016 #32
Armstead May 2016 #46
Baobab May 2016 #16
yourpaljoey May 2016 #3
Scuba May 2016 #4
berni_mccoy May 2016 #7
imagine2015 May 2016 #45
Orsino May 2016 #6
Armstead May 2016 #28
jcgoldie May 2016 #9
RockaFowler May 2016 #12
berni_mccoy May 2016 #17
tammywammy May 2016 #31
RockaFowler May 2016 #40
pampango May 2016 #14
berni_mccoy May 2016 #18
pampango May 2016 #25
berni_mccoy May 2016 #34
pampango May 2016 #42
themaguffin May 2016 #15
berni_mccoy May 2016 #19
themaguffin May 2016 #48
jillan May 2016 #21
AzDar May 2016 #35
VulgarPoet May 2016 #22
NurseJackie May 2016 #27
Armstead May 2016 #30
NurseJackie May 2016 #33
Post removed May 2016 #37
whatthehey May 2016 #29
berni_mccoy May 2016 #38
whatthehey May 2016 #41
pampango May 2016 #43
silvershadow May 2016 #39
HooptieWagon May 2016 #47
Skwmom May 2016 #49
lumberjack_jeff May 2016 #50
amborin May 2016 #52
pdsimdars May 2016 #53

Response to berni_mccoy (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:13 PM

1. Well if the shoe fits

Drumpf will be running to CLinton's left a other issues I suspect -

Welcome to bizzaro world where republican get to the left of DLC DINOS.

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Reply #1)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:21 PM

10. Video shows how MUCH will change, must see!

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Reply #1)

Mon May 2, 2016, 02:23 PM

44. I don't think that is bizarre at all. In fact, I would say Republican liberalism is inevitable.

 


When Third-Way Democrats moved the party to the Right, Republicans needed to create distance and obviously began by moving further to the Right. Eventually, they had to go so far Right that they have ended up in the wilderness (nationally).

This was, of course, the DLC's plan. Make Republican Party a permanent minority party by pushing them out of the mainstream.

There is, however, one fairly obvious solution for the Republican Party. Move Left! Now that the Democratic Party has emerged as the mainstream Rightwing party, there is plenty of room for a mainstream Leftwing party. And since, at the fringe the two sides often find common ground, they could use that common ground to make the jump.

The names will remain the same. The definitions will just change.

It has happened before. Before the Cold War the Conservatives were anti-war while Liberals were interventionists (and even the Cold War was started by us). They were still calling the Democratic Party the "War Party" into the '70s. So why shouldn't Conservatives go back to being anti-war and Liberals pro-war? Conservative rank-and-file has always been less pro-business than their politicians. They could easily go populist on that issue.

Republican voters have proven to be extremely susceptible to revisionist history. And we're not talking revising history that happened decades ago. I used to think 1984 was the stupidest book I ever read. But after 9/12's "bet you're glad your guy did not win now" comment was taken at face value, I had to change that opinion.

Less than one year after Bush/Cheney mocked Al Gore for claiming that Jihadi terrorism was the #1 national security threat, we were supposed to be glad that Bush/Cheney were elected now that we had just suffered a major Jihadi terrorist attack? How was that sentence not laughed out of the public arena?

So the Republican Party could pretty much do a 180 on anything and the voters would continue voting for them. Especially since a substantial percentage of their vote is on only one issue: guns.

Childhood friends of mine accused me of turning Liberal when I moved to the city. So we sat down and compared every hot button issue. They ended up admitting that they had done a 180 on every issue except for guns. They justified this with, "we got older and smarter". In reality, they just had to swallow all the other issues so they could vote the way they wanted on guns. They couldn't give a rat's ass about abortion, school religion, cutting taxes, foreign policy, etc.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:14 PM

2. Trump is a liar too. Trump will say anything and everything, and Thom knows this and

makes this point often.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Reply #2)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:17 PM

5. How is Hillary any better on this? She's changed position on issues so many times...

It's hard to know where she really stands. I for one don't trust a word out of her mouth, especially after she campaigned in 2008 against CFTA and then implemented it in 2008.

She's not credible on anything she says.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #5)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:21 PM

8. She wont deport 11 million and prevent Muslims from coming in

and wont send troops to supervise Muslim neighborhoods and wont send women to back alleys to die.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Reply #8)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:23 PM

11. I doubt Trump will either... 1st it's not feasible and 2nd

A divided congress wouldn't support it. As far as deportation, war and torture goes, Hillary doesn't have a great track record.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #11)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:27 PM

13. Trump is becoming more and more acceptable to lots of folks around here

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Reply #13)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:34 PM

20. It's irrelevant who he appeals to around here... As Thom pointed out

What is relevant is that he will take votes away from Democrats on this issue. And there are plenty of Democrats who care a great deal about Trade. Hillary needs to change her position (again?) on this issue or she's not going to win.

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Reply #13)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:36 PM

23. It is sad when DU'ers say Trump is 'to the left' of X or Y then post that they doubt he will do what

he says he will do. How do you know he is 'to the left' of anyone then? What you are saying is that he is a good talker.

Trump's campaign manager has said that most of his campaign rhetoric is an act designed to appeal to the republican base - not known for their progressive tendencies. It is frustrating when rhetoric designed to resonate with the republican base is absorbed and regurgitated here by liberals.

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Response to pampango (Reply #23)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:37 PM

24. Many here have been GOP folks all along, we have been played

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Reply #24)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:59 PM

36. Thom said it and I doubt you can call him GOP. There goes your credibility on reality.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #36)

Mon May 2, 2016, 03:08 PM

51. Thom will work hard to elect Hillary Clinton, so will you I guess, good.

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Response to pampango (Reply #23)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:46 PM

26. Clinton loves those Corporate Free Trade Robbers

 

I don't give a shit what Trump says about it as he's full of shit.

But that doesn't excuse the fact that the Democratic Establishment of which Clinton will be next figurehead, is selling us and out government down the river.

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Response to Armstead (Reply #26)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:57 PM

32. You are much better than those here who do seem to 'give a shit what Trump says about it'.

Bernie will handle trade issues in a way that resembles FDR and Truman much more than Hillary or Donald - whose rhetoric sounds like the polar opposite of FDR.

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Response to pampango (Reply #32)

Mon May 2, 2016, 02:29 PM

46. Trumps policy on trade, as on everything, seems to be....

 

"Trust me. I'll do great deals because I am so wonderful."

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Response to Jackie Wilson Said (Reply #8)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:30 PM

16. Bill Clinton signed us into services liberalisation-basically opens the services markets to foreign

corporations globally. That will make wages more competitive on a global scale. Giving the WTO the final say on services, companies wil be frozen at their current level of liberalisation.

The idea is to maximize the profits in the supply chain and eliminate discrimination against corporation, things such as state owned enterprises have to end. Privatization of public services and then globalization of them. Increasing competition and lowering costs.

Economic integration creates exemptions to liberalisation requirements for Least Developed Countries. Only LDCs are allowed to have discriminatory provisions.

This is the best video i have seen to date explaining it-

So, we'll be stuck if just one government commits to these, as we did in 1995, and are almost done with the new one now. So more than anybody else, we're pushing the liberalisation.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:16 PM

3. He is wisely positioning himself to win

Hill will run even farther to the right than she is now.
Not one republican will vote for her and the Independents will
desert her. She will be slaughtered.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:17 PM

4. Not just on trade. Also on war, healthcare, H1B visas and Social Security.

 

No, I don't trust Trump, but then I don't trust Hillary either.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #4)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:21 PM

7. I know. But many voters (especially blue-collar working class), will take Trump's word over

Hillary's. She's had the benefit of the doubt and then broken that trust. Trump has not had a chance to betray the voters yet. I doubt the blue-collar will support a known untrustable vs. an unknown.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #7)

Mon May 2, 2016, 02:23 PM

45. The sure won't take Trump's word over Bernie's.

 

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Response to berni_mccoy (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:21 PM

6. Trump isn't running as anything but ignorant and petty.

His few stock phrasings on trade do not constitute a measurable agenda, and even if they did, his utter lack of integrity would invalidate it.

He doesn't have a stance.

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Response to Orsino (Reply #6)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:48 PM

28. Neither does Clinton...Or it keeps shifting depending on whether she is campaigning or in office

 

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Response to berni_mccoy (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:21 PM

9. Trump runs all over the place

On every issue. There's zero coherence to his policy. Calling it left or right is pretty nonsensical.

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Response to RockaFowler (Reply #12)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:31 PM

17. Snopes says that's not accurate

While daughter's line of scarves was made in China, Trump's campaign clothing is not: http://www.snopes.com/donald-trump-hat-china/

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #17)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:54 PM

31. His campaign hat maybe made in America

But his suits and ties are made in China.

Trump does the same thing. Many of his products are made outside the United States. Most Donald J. Trump ties are made in China. Some Donald J. Trump suits are also made in China.

Donald J. Trump signature men's dress shirts are made in China, Bangladesh or "imported," meaning they were made abroad.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/03/08/news/economy/donald-trump-trade/

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #17)

Mon May 2, 2016, 02:11 PM

40. This is a picture of an actual tie my husband has

The tie was made in China. My husband got it as a discounted item when he worked at Macys

And if you are calling me a liar I think you better not . . .

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Response to berni_mccoy (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:27 PM

14. Trump is not running to the left of either Hillary or Bernie on trade.

Donald is not a political reincarnation of FDR on trade. He more closely resembles Herbert Hoover and Calvin Coolidge from the era just before FDR and more recently Pat Buchanan.

Trump wants to 'rip up' NAFTA, the WTO, the Iran nuclear deal, the Paris climate deal and essentially every other international agreement that we have because they all limit our 'national sovereignty' - we agree to limit our behavior in some way in exchange for the other side limiting its behavior in some way. Limiting our behavior limits our national sovereignty in Trump's eyes.

Bernie has said he will renegotiate NAFTA and the WTO, while embracing the Iran and Paris deals. Is Trump 'to the left' of Bernie because he will 'rip 'em up' rather than renegotiating? I don't think so. FDR negotiated many international agreements and organizations including in trade. He did not 'rip 'em up'. Trump is not 'to the left' of FDR, Bernie or Hillary.

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Response to pampango (Reply #14)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:32 PM

18. I'll take Thom's word on this over yours, thanks.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #18)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:42 PM

25. Did Thom say whether Trump (rip it up) was to the left of Bernie (renegotiate it) on NAFTA?

I appreciate that Bernie will renegotiate rather than destroy, but I'm not sure where than falls on the 'left-right' spectrum on trade issues.

We all tend to take the word of people with whom we agree.

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Response to pampango (Reply #25)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:58 PM

34. Thom explicitly said Bernie is to the Left of Trump on Trade.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #34)

Mon May 2, 2016, 02:17 PM

42. I am glad to hear it since I think Bernie has the best policy but for many liberals

ripping up trade agreements and the WTO would be more 'left' than merely renegotiating them. I agree with Thom that renegotiating these trade agreements and organizations is more 'left' than ripping them up.

It seems that Thom would put "keeping trade agreements as is" on the right wing of the spectrum, 'ripping them up' in the middle of the political spectrum and 'renegotiating them' on the left. That would put someone who wants to 'rip 'em up' (Trump) to the left of someone who wants to keep them 'as is' (Hillary though she may dispute that) while putting Bernie's 'renegotiation' on the far left.

I can accept that though I think the republican base would put 'rip 'em up' on the far right rather than in the middle.Their base always polls as opposed than Democrats to trade agreements and organizations and seems to be thrilled with Trump's 'rip 'em up and raise tariffs' rhetoric. If they realize that Thom thinks that Donald is really moderate on trade, they would not be happy. I am sure they do not view their beloved Donald as more to the left than Hillary on trade.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:28 PM

15. Bernie supporters throwing liberals under the bus in - oh wait one just did it

What a shitty right wing thread.

Do you even know what Drumpf would do with trade? Do you have a fucking clue??

People need to grow up. Thom, no doubt understands what Drumpf would do, but not some clueless people around
here.

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Response to themaguffin (Reply #15)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:33 PM

19. I'll take Thom's word on this over yours. And he did say this.

The fact is Trump is going to take votes away from Hillary on this issue and that was the point of the conversation on Thom's show.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #19)

Mon May 2, 2016, 02:43 PM

48. If it takes votes it's because liberals let him.

This is silly. Informed people know that Drumpf is full of shit.

He's not to the left of Hillary. He has no policy to do so.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:35 PM

21. Trade AND foreign policy.

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Response to jillan (Reply #21)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:59 PM

35. Yep. Don't know why people are pretending to not SEE this.

 

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Response to berni_mccoy (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:35 PM

22. They both can't be trusted as far as I could sling a piano, is the problem

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Response to berni_mccoy (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:46 PM

27. Was he ever ON the Hillary Bus to begin with?

He's the one who does that show for the Russia Today network, right? Hmmm... I question his judgement and motives.

RT, originally Russia Today, is a Russian government-funded television network that runs cable and satellite television channels directed to audiences outside of Russia as well as providing Internet content in various languages, including Russian.


RT has been called a propaganda outlet for the Russian government[10][11][12] and its foreign policy[10][12][13][14] by news reporters,[15] including former RT reporters.[16][17][18] RT has also been accused of spreading disinformation.[19][20][21][22] The United Kingdom media regulator, Ofcom, has repeatedly found RT to have breached rules on impartiality, and of broadcasting "materially misleading" content.[23][24][25] RT states that it offers a Russian perspective on global events.[3]

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #27)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:53 PM

30. You ought to listen to his show

 

You might find that his overall insights are very perceptive....But then probably not.

It's unfortunate that on TV he is on RT. But since the Mainstream Media is owned by monopolistic conservative corporations like Comcast/GE and Time Warner, there isn't much of anywhere else to go.

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Response to Armstead (Reply #30)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:58 PM

33. I have. It's horrid. (Almost as bad as TYT, but not as whiney.)

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #33)


Response to berni_mccoy (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 01:49 PM

29. Define "left"

Because Democrats seem to be much more fans of free trade agreements than Republicans, and free trade has a +20 favorability among Dems and -10 among Reps....

http://dailycaller.com/2016/03/18/democrats-understand-econ-101-more-than-republicans-poll-shows/

A Dem

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Response to whatthehey (Reply #29)

Mon May 2, 2016, 02:01 PM

38. Why don't you ask the Unions what Free Trade has done to this country.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #38)

Mon May 2, 2016, 02:13 PM

41. I'm sure unions were included in the survey

The results were still as shown - a huge positive among Dems and a sizeable negative among Reps in support for free trade. So how again, exactly, is being anti-trade "to the left" as a campaign stance.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #38)

Mon May 2, 2016, 02:22 PM

43. We trade less than any other country on earth this side of North Korea. Our problems are

self-inflicted, not caused by trade. If trade ('free' or otherwise) killed unions, they would be dead in Sweden, Canada and Germany. They are not. They are much stronger than in the US. Might that be because they are supported and protected by their governments (as FDR did here) while they are undermined by our laws (think: 'right-to-work') here.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 02:03 PM

39. He has been for weeks. nt

 

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Response to berni_mccoy (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 02:40 PM

47. Trump will position himself to her left on several issues.

 

She has positioned herself so far right, it gives a RW populist demagogue like Trump room to back some policies to her left.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 02:57 PM

49. He will run to the left of her on war/regime change. I'm sure the millennials will run to support


the war candidate.

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Response to berni_mccoy (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 03:01 PM

50. I'm soooo not looking forward to the GE ads

 

ad #1) camera pans across empty factory, then poor kids playing in a trash-strewn alley. Scene opens with a middle aged lady sitting at her kitchen table; "Hillary Clinton supports the trade agreements that killed this factory, and my husband who committed suicide last year"

ad #2) camera opens on middle aged african-american woman looking at the want ads "I used to work for Disney as a programmer, I haven't worked since 2012 when I trained my replacement, an H1B visa worker who was educated in the same college as me. Clinton supports even more H1B visa holders to come here and take jobs"

ad #3) camera opens on a sullen 8th grader, slouching with his arms crossed at his local school. Interview with his mom follows; "Timmy hasn't been the same since his dad was killed in Iraq - none of our kids have. His older sister ran away last year and we have no idea where she is. My husband was proud to serve the country, but now his kids are without a father.... and for what? I hear the rumor that the next war is with Syria!"

ad #4) Jihadis reading Clinton's emails and laughing. Subtitle "she backed up these to the cloud! Hahah". Voiceover: "Clinton can't be trusted with state secrets."

ad #5) Self-explanatory video of one of her Goldman-Sachs speeches obtained from Ted Cruz' wife, who worked at GS then.

There are few arguments to elect Clinton that make any sense, the least sensible of which is "electability".

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Response to berni_mccoy (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 03:17 PM

52. David Axelrod: Trump is sheep in wolf's clothing; will attack HRC from the left

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Response to berni_mccoy (Original post)

Mon May 2, 2016, 04:04 PM

53. I heard his segment and he made some very important points.

 

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