Is it safe now to admit that Clinton is better on gay rights than Sanders?

[Onlooker]

Let's face it folks, when a guy's biggest claim to fame on gay rights is that he voted against DOMA, you ought to ask yourself, What did that vote do for anyone? Not only was Bernie's vote absolutely useless, he didn't even speak up on DOMA at the time. So, he made a useless vote and said nothing about gay rights.

The fact of DOMA is that it was passed by a Republican Congress 6 weeks before the national election, so the only people who voted against it were people in safely liberal districts.

But, in all Bernie's years in Congress he NEVER did one thing for gays.

So, let's compare his useless record to that of the Clintons:

The Clinton administration, despite the fierce attacks of the Christian Coalition and Newt Gingrich's Contract on America:
- granted asylum to gays oppressed in other nations
- substantially increased AIDS funding
- barred discrimination against gays and people with AIDS
- appointed 150 openly gay people to government jobs, including an ambassadorship
- pushed hate crimes legislation to include gays (though it failed)
- pushed for gays in the military (though was forced by conservative Democrats to accept DADT)
- Bill Clinton openly spoke of gay rights in a State of the Union address
- Hillary Clinton was the first first lady to march in a gay pride parade
- Hillary Clinton's staff successfully advocated against legislation that would deny gays adoption rights
- Hillary Clinton expressed support for domestic partnerships
- issued the first gay pride month proclamation

While it's true that Bernie Sanders came around on gay marriage before Hillary Clinton, he did not do so until after the Vermont Legislature approved it, 5 years after it became legal in Massachusetts.

The fact is that Bernie never risked any political capital on gay rights; the Clinton's did.

Bernie deserves credit for a lot of things, but gay rights is not one of them. Gay marriage is only one right in gay history, and frankly neither Bernie nor Hillary have anything to do with its legalization. The way Sanders supporters wield around the gay marriage issue you'd think it was the central issue in gay rights. In fact, it's not even close, and was even controversial (for progressive reasons) in the gay community.

(I put together a timeline with sources in this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/113747341)

[Warren Stupidity]

1. As a serious centrist I agree tha Clinton's flexible

policy stance on basic human rights strikes the proper balance.

[Bohunk68]

48. Flexible on basic human rights? Seriously?

You made that statement? Which human rights would you have flexibility about? For who? For what period of time? Where? That is one of the most un-democratic statements I have seen posted here.

[Warren Stupidity]

52. So you don't agree that Clinton's flexible stance

on basic human rights is the best approach?

[Prism]

2. Offensive, ignorant, gross.

Jeeeeesus, this is bad.

And you want to posit this after Clinton laid down her ignorance of the AIDS epidemic?

So many face palms.

[Onlooker]

5. Oh, Bernie lost, get over it already and stop acting ignorant

I cited facts. I suppose we can talk about Bernie's ghetto remark if you want to talk about Hillary's Nancy Reagan remark. The fact remains that Bernie was useless to gay history, but obviously you're just sticking with political fodder since you have nothing else.

[Prism]

74. I'm a gay man

Highly aware of my community's history and how both candidates approached us.

But please, do go on screaming at me and claiming I have no idea what I'm talking about.

You're clearly a scholar on my life and my people.

I'll just go make some coffee while you enthrall us from your heterosexual perch.

[Lil Missy]

25. oh ffs! She made a misstatement. It doesn't equate to "ignorance of the AIDS epidemic"

Jebus! You guys need to chill out.

[Bluenorthwest]

63. A 'misstatement'? Like claiming George W Bush was the hero of Hurricane Katrina, only

far worse because we are talking about the deaths of tens of thousands of people taking place over a period of years. Hillary Clinton knows that to be the fact. She said what she said inexplicably.

At the Convention that nominated Bill in '92, she heard repeated testimonies about the evils of Reagan and Bush around AIDS, it is not material she did not know in the past, it is material she has either forgotten or chosen to disregard for pandering purposes, neither option is a good one.

If Bernie had claimed that W saved NOLA after Katrina would you say 'Oh, he just misspoke' or would you be going on and on about the Superdome and stranded people? I'd be ripping him a new one if he said that. But Hillary folks excuse and defend her smears of LGBT and her praise of Regan for doing the very things he is hated for not doing.


Glaring double standards, and part of it is 'who cares about those dead gays'. It's sickening.

[Prism]

75. It wasn't a misstatement. It was pandering

And she rolled over us to do it. Because she wasn't thinking ahead - or really even thinking at all. If it wasn't the M.O. of her entire career to say whatever she thinks will help at the time, it'd almost be unexpected.

Was she misspeaking when she spent the better part of the last 15 years yammering on about the sacredness of heterosexual marriage?

Support her if you like, but at least have the integrity to call out bullshit when you see it.

Your silence in the face of OPs like these and defenses of Clinton like that erode your credibility.

[Kall]

77. It wasn't a "misstatement", it was pandering.

Just like lying that she was under sniper fire in Bosnia for weeks (and lying about the people who accompanied her on the trip who said she wasn't) wasn't a "sleep-deprived" weeks-long "misstatement", it was flagrantly and shamelessly lying in order to dress up her foreign policy resume on the campaign trail, a decision that lasted until the video came out.

[Betty Karlson]

29. Indeed: this OP is the mother of all tin-ears.

"Yeah, so Clinton violated your human rights, but actually Clinton was pretty good for you - right?"

[mercuryblues]

42. too bad the actual facts

Don't compare to the meme.


The Clinton Administration has responded aggressively to the significant threat posed by HIV/AIDS with increased attention to research, prevention, and treatment. Overall funding for AIDS-related programs within HHS has increased by 150 percent under the Clinton Administration, with funding for HIV/AIDS care under the Health Resources and Services Administration's Ryan White CARE Act increasing by 358 percent. The proposed FY 2001 budget includes $9.2 billion in total HIV/AIDS funding within HHS.
At the same time, the Administration has sharpened the focus of its AIDS programs, establishing a new Office of National AIDS Policy at the White House, and signed legislation creating a permanent Office of AIDS Research at the National Institutes of Health (NIH). The Administration also convened the first-ever White House Conference on HIV and AIDS in December 1995, released the first National AIDS Strategy in December 1996, and prepared the first federal biomedical research plan for HIV/AIDS in 1997. In May 1997, President Clinton announced a comprehensive AIDS vaccine research initiative designed to lead to the development of an AIDS vaccine within 10 years, and in 1998, the Food and Drug Administration approved the nation's first large-scale trial of an AIDS prevention vaccine. In addition, the President announced the Millenium Vaccine Initiative on May 31, 2000 which calls for sharp increases in vaccine research at the National Institutes of Health, new investments for the purchase and delivery of existing vaccines and a substantial tax credit for the private sector to speed the development of new vaccines.
Today, HIV research efforts are making real inroads. New drugs are providing vast improvements in the treatment of HIV and AIDS, and new treatment guidelines released by HHS are giving health professionals much needed guidance to help standardize the care of individuals living with HIV/AIDS. As a result, the National Center for Health Statistics announced on October 5, 1999, that HIV/AIDS mortality has declined more than 70 percent since 1995, and that AIDS cases are no longer among the top 15 causes of death in national statistics, a fall from eighth place in 1996. Overall, the age-adjusted death rate from HIV infection is the lowest since 1987. This reflects the impact of powerful new anti-HIV drugs, and increased access to health care for those living with HIV/AIDS. However, transmission of the disease continues, and effective prevention efforts are still crucially important, as is the search for a vaccine.
The trends in AIDS death rates are uneven across racial and ethnic groups. In October 1998, President Clinton declared HIV/AIDS to be a severe and ongoing health crisis in racial and ethnic minority communities and announced a comprehensive new initiative in collaboration with the Congressional Black Caucus to improve the nation's effectiveness in preventing and treating HIV/AIDS in the African-American, Hispanic and other minority communities. Through the Minority AIDS Initiative, targeted funding and technical assistance helps minority organizations and coalitions become stable, ongoing sources of HIV prevention, HIV care and treatment services, and substance abuse and mental health services within their communities. In June 1999, the Administration also announced that Crisis Response Teams would provide special technical assistance to 11 U.S. metropolitan areas to combat the spread of HIV/AIDS among racial and ethnic minority populations. The Crisis Response Teams are meeting with local officials, public health personnel and community-based organizations that work with racial/ethnic minority persons living with HIV/AIDS to help them develop targeted strategies to curb the rapid spread of HIV/AIDS among minority populations in their communities and to encourage those affected to enter care.

more at


https://aidsinfo.nih.gov/news/564/clinton-administration-record-on-hiv-aids

[Bluenorthwest]

56. And why did Bill Clinton take those actions? First, because Reagan had done nothing for

seven years and had hindered progress. For the last several years of the Reagan administration millions of LGBT activists were in the streets all over America attempting to draw attention to the crisis Reagan was ignoring.

When Bill was candidate, he was confronted repeatedly by ACT UP and other activist groups who took any and all brave steps to inform and motivate him. These groups, they both helped get him elected and aggressively forced his hand so that he would not repeat the Reagan negligence. And he did not.
Candidate Bill Clinton confronted by ACT UP activists, NY 1996:

But all of that fact is denied by Hillary's outlandish claim that only the Reagans had the courage to initiate activism against AIDS.

Hillary praising Ron and Nancy in 2016:

[Zen Democrat]

3. That makes it even stranger that she somehow forgot that the Reagans' weren't AIDS champions.

[aikoaiko]

4. Voting against DOMA was a useless act? You've sunk to a new low.

[Onlooker]

7. He said nothing, and his vote accomplished nothing ....

... Show me where he spoke up about gay rights when he voted against DOMA. You can't. Because all he did was make a vote that it was safe for him to make, but he didn't even speak up about it.

[aikoaiko]

10. The vote speaks for itself. He's on record.

I know, not good enough. Could he have spoken up for gay rights more, sure. Everyone could have. Especially the Clintons.

But to say that his vote against DOMA was useless is stunning.

[Onlooker]

12. What did it accompolish?

Other than for him to suck up to gays in this election. His vote accomplished nothing. Had he used his vote as a forum to speak up on gay rights, it would have been meaningful. Instead, 6 weeks before the national election he did what only Congresspeople from safe liberal seats could do, voted against it. The Clintons actually helped increase my rights and those of my friends. Bernie's DOMA vote did nothing. It was a good vote, and he's always been a reliable vote, but he was never a leader on gay rights. He never expended political capital for gays.

[aikoaiko]

16. That's the thing, his votes aren't about political capital.

He votes based on his convictions.

I'm not going to convince you of anything and so I'll leave it there

I'm glad he voted against DOMA and doing the right thing is never useless.

[apcalc]

54. The gays I know, men and women, support Clinton.

Bernie is into income inequality. Great issue , good message.

But that doesn't do one thing for ending discrimination, stopping persecution.

[Bluenorthwest]

58. I'm gay myself, I assume you are not due to 'the gays I know' and I know one Hillary supporter

and dozens of Bernie supporters. Everyone I know but that one, very furious with Hillary over the Reagan comments. We lost dozens of people. Loved ones, business partners, friends and mentors, we buried them all while Reagan snickered. Ask your friends what they think about that.

[JudyM]

71. Clearly, you don't know many. Don't presume to speak for us.

[stone space]

60. I think the point is that it proves what a "loser" he is.

Voting against DOMA was a useless act? You've sunk to a new low.

He didn't vote with the "winning" side.

A smarter politician would have voted for DOMA and chalked up another big win, I suppose.

What a Loser!

[jg10003]

8. Guess you never saw this; "Sanders Defends Gay Soldiers, 1995"

[Onlooker]

9. Thank you for that ...

... That said, Bill Clinton was the one who tried to get gays fully into the military, but he met such a backlash from Sam Nunn, the Georgia Democrat who chaired the Senate Arms Service Committee, that he was forced to accept DADT, lest Congress would pass legislation outlawing gays in the military.

That said, I haven't seen that. So, that's the one good thing that Sanders did in Congress. I will add that to my list. I'll put that up there with Bill Clinton defending gays in a state of the union address.

[jg10003]

17. Here's more from Politifact

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/sep/29/chuck-todd/nbcs-chuck-todd-bernie-sanders-there-same-sex-marr/

Bernie supported gays rights long before it was fashionable.

In the early 1970s, Sanders ran for governor of Vermont under the banner of the Liberty Union party, a coalition of leftist groups....
"The Liberty Union believe that there are entirely too many laws that regulate human behavior," Sanders wrote in an open letter. "Let us abolish all laws which attempt to impose a particular brand of morality or ‘right’ on people. Let’s abolish all laws dealing with abortion, drugs, sexual behavior (adultery, homosexuality, etc.)."

As mayor of Burlington, Vt., Sanders supported a gay pride parade in 1983, saying "we must all be committed to the mutual respect of each other’s lifestyle." Sanders also put through a 1984 housing anti-discrimination ordinance that protected people based on "his or her sexual preference."

[Onlooker]

34. I specifically was referring to his congressional career ...

... As mayor of Burlington, he represented an extremely liberal city.

[Armstead]

45. A diverse city....Vermont had (has) a lot of conservatives too.

It is not like there was no opposition to gay rights in the 80's there.

[byyiminy]

65. He did a lot in Congress that you have chosen to deliberately ignore

[morningfog]

11. Is this one of the times when using Bill's record is taking sexist?

[Onlooker]

13. If Sanders supporters wish to connect Hillary to Bill ...

... then it cuts both ways.

I suppose if we treat them as two separate people, we can say that Bernie voted for the repressive 1994 Crime Bill. Hillary did not, so she can't be held accountable for it. Agreed?

[morningfog]

14. No Hillary lobbied for the crime bill, calling kids super predators

who need to be brought to heel.

Those were her words, her position, her advocacy.

I'm asking if you want it both ways?

[Joe the Revelator]

15. Those damn facts

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jun/17/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-change-position-same-sex-marriage/

[TheDormouse]

19. "he NEVER did one thing for gays"--but gosh darnit those PESKY FACTS!!

Bernie has tried to get many pro-LGBT bills passed during his time in Congress.
He was pro-gay before it was politically safe enough for many Democrats and virtually all Republicans to join him.

HR 1430 Civil Rights Amendments Act of 1991 - 102nd Congress (1991-1992)

HRes 271 Expressing the sense of the House that the President should rescined Department of Defense Directive 1332.14 section H.1. which bans gay, lesbian, and bisexual Americans from military service - 102nd Congress

HR 5208 To prohibit discrimination by the Armed Forces on the basis of sexual orientation - 102nd Congress

HR 431 Civil Rights Act of 1993 (to prohibit discrimination on account of sexual orientation) - 103rd Congress

HR 4370 AIDS Cure Act - 103rd Congress

HR 4636 Employment Non-Discrimination Act of 1994 - 103rd Congress

HR 5141 Ryan White CARE Reauthorization Act of 1994 - 103rd Congress

HR 42 Ryan White CARE Reauthorization Act of 1995 - 104th Congress

HR 1863 Employment Non-Discrimination Act of 1995 - 104th Congress

HR 1858 Employment Non-Discrimination Act of 1997 - 105th Congress

HR 2355 Employment Non-Discrimination Act of 1999 - 106th Congress

HR 3650 Permanent Partners Immigration Act of 2000 - 106th Congress
To amend the Immigration and Nationality Act to include permanent partners within the scope of such Act

HConRes 259 Expressing the concern of Congress regarding human rights violations against lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, and transgendered individuals around the world - 106th Congress

HR 690 Permanent Partners Immigration Act of 2001 - 107th Congress

HConRes 173 International Human Rights Equality Resolution - 107th Congress

HR 2692 Employment Non-Discrimination Act of 2001 - 107th Congress

HConRes 330 International Human Rights Equality Resolution - 108th Congress

S 3390 Student Nondiscrimination Act of 2010 - 111th Congress

S 555 Student Non-Discrimination Act of 2011 - 112th Congress

S 1770 Every Child Deserves a Family Act - 112th Congress

S 1088 Student Non-Discrimination Act of 2013 - 113th Congress

S 5 A Bill to Reauthorize the Violence Against Women Act of 1994 - 113th Congress

S 302 International Human Rights Defense Act of 2015 - 114th Congres

S 439 Student Non-Discrimination Act of 2015 - 114th Congress

S1382 Every Child Deserves a Family Act - 114th Congress

SRes 184 stop Harming Our Kids Resolution of 2015 - 114th Congress
Condemning sexual orientation conversion therapy

S 1858 Equality Act - 114th Congress

(Reminder: If a bill fails to pass during a two-year congressional session, it cannot be reintroduced until the next congressional session begins.)

[Onlooker]

36. He was a reliable vote like a great many Democrats ...

... But find me legislation he pushed, find me speeches he gave on the House floor, find me evidence that he campaigned on the issue in Vermont. I acknowledged that Sanders was a reliable vote, but he did not in any way lead on the struggle for gay rights. The Clintons did, they risked political capital, they even paid a price, and that's why so many gays, gay media, gay organizations, etc. support her. Those pesky facts.

[Dawgs]

51. FFS, DADT was one of the worst things Bill could have done for gays.

Talk about not leading.

[Bluenorthwest]

61. You are not very informed. 'A great many Democrats' voted for LGBT rights? Wrong.

Bernie voted against DOMA for example. 67 House members voted No. 342 voted Yes, of which 118 were Democrats. A great many Democrats voted for DOMA, few voted against it. Senate was 32 Democratic Yes voters and just 14 Democratic No voters.

Both Clintons supported DOMA before, during and after the passage. Bernie did not. Pesky facts indeed.

Bernie's votes were always with us. Never against us. And he was one of a few, not one of 'a great many Democrats'. I wish there had been a great many. But what it was was a brave handful.

[Lil Missy]

20. alerted

Kidding!!

[LostOne4Ever]

21. Absolutely not because it will never ever be true. Sanders will always be better on this issue.

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=#009999]And he was for gay rights and for SSM since the beginning. He risked his career several times standing up for the LGBTQ community from the gay pride day in Burlington, to voting against doma, to his record on numerous bills that gave him a 100% rating from the HRC.

QUIT SWIFTBOATING SANDERS ON THIS ISSUE!

Hillary is better than any republican but she can't touch Sanders on LGBTQ issues. Her opposition to gay marriage (something Sanders never had) seals that record in STONE.[/font]

[Behind the Aegis]

30. Bravo!

What I find disturbing is not all the examples are about Hillary Clinton, but rather her husband. I didn't realize he was running again.

[Onlooker]

33. I like how you offer no details

No, Sanders never risked his career. Burlington was remarkably liberal even in the 1960s. (I lived there as a gay man in the late 1970s.) Find me one piece of evidence that he risked his career. Further, as far as Burlington goes, I made a point of saying that I was referring to his career in Congress.

Yes, he has a great voting record on gay rights, no one can deny that, but in all his years in Congress he never risked political capital on the subject. The Clintons did.

Sanders, like Clinton, played no role in the legalization of gay marriage. None whatsoever. He only supported gay marriage after Vermont legalized it, five years after Massachusetts legalized it. Yes, he deserves credit for endorsing it before Hillary did, but he was no more part of the struggle for its legalization than Hillary. They were both irrelevant to the gay marriage struggle.

I am not swiftboating Sanders. I'm not saying he was bad, just that the Clintons actually have a better record. They risked political capital. Sanders was very quiet on the subject through his years in Congress.

[LostOne4Ever]

39. Yeah cause I am tired of repeating myself.

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=#009999] http://www.gallup.com/poll/128291/americans-opposition-gay-marriage-eases-slightly.aspx

This shows that in 1996, during DOMA, 68% of the people were opposed to SSM. To go against a 2/3 majority takes tremendous courage and you can't tell me that isn't risking one's political career. But of course his support went back to the 1970's:

http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/bernie-sanders-was-full-gay-equality-40-years-ago

He stated his support originally in the 1970s.




While Vermont was far more liberal than most of the US it still had its fights on Gay rights, especially in the 80s when opposition to Gay Rights was at its highest:

http://www.queerty.com/32-years-before-marriage-equality-bernie-sanders-fought-for-gay-rights-20150719

http://www.sevendaysvt.com/OffMessage/archives/2015/06/30/32-years-before-scotus-decision-sanders-backed-gay-pride-march
[/font]

After quite some debate at a June 13 meeting, the board voted six to five in favor of designating the date of the march Lesbian and Gay Pride Day, according to a contemporaneous story from the Burlington Free Press. Opponents, such as Alderman Diane Gallagher, a Ward 6 Republican, questioned why the march required official recognition.

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=#009999]These article shows it was a contentious issue even in Vermont back in the 1980's. If it was a slam dunk, why was the vote only 6-5?

He also supported civil unions, which cost several vermont politicians their seats and gave republicans control of Vermont's house:

http://www.npr.org/2013/03/27/174651233/how-vermonts-civil-war-fueled-the-gay-marriage-movement

He expressly stated his support for gay marriage in vermont. All of which helped contribute to the changing of opinions on SSM and its eventual passage.

And here is a list of LGBT legislation he supported earning him a 100% rating from the HRC:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511531610
https://votesmart.org/candidate/evaluations/27110/bernie-sanders/76#.VyHkK_krKUk
https://votesmart.org/candidate/evaluations/55463/hillary-clinton/76#.VyHkNfkrKUk

Here he is DEFENDING gay soliders:

Now where did Hillary vote against an anti-lgbtq bill with as much support as DOMA had? When did she ever vote for a pro-LGBTQ that had as little support as the anti-doma forces had? Heck, she gave up on changing forms to be more LGBTQ inclusive on an imagined challenge from fox news as recently as 2011.

Speaking of which, let not pretend that NY is some conservative right wing state. It is one of the most liberal states in the Union with Vermont. In fact, the two states had almost identical support of SSM in 2011 when comparing New York to Vermont.

She was also super popular in NY and won the first election there 55%, and the second by 67%. Her supporting SSM earlier wouldn't have killed her career, or at the very least she could have not have come out and flat out said she was opposed to it.

In fact, she won by more than Bernie did in 2006 but he didn't have to fake-claim to opposing SSM like she did.

And, let us not forget, DOMA could have passed without Bill Clinton. He could have given the bill a pocket veto and let the republicans pass that Bullshit without his signature on it. Instead, he signed it and used it to get votes!

Now lets see what Hillary said about SSM:

Now I will give the Clintons (with an s since we are adding Bill's record to Hillary's for some reason) benefit of the doubt on DADT, as that was to keep a worse legislation off the table like you say. That is why I never harp on that vote. But there was NO reason Bill couldn't have pocket Vetoed DOMA.

Can you post ANYTHING showing Bernie flat out saying no to gay marriage like Hillary did? I doubt it, cause he never did. The closest anyone has come is him saying they shouldn't push for it "right now, not after what we went through" or a cspan video of him saying the courts shouldn't overturn Mass. Gay Marriage Law. Neither of which is a "no" statement. Both were comments on strategy for advancing gay rights.

Put simply, looking at their votes, looking at their records, at their history you can't tell me that Hillary has had the LGBTQ communities back like Sanders had.

And with Trans rights (something that I hold near and dear to my heart due to my own gender issues) looming on the horizon can you honestly say you believe that Hillary won't do exactly what her husband did in the 1990's?

Pay lip service to the LGBTQ community until it becomes a real issue and then immediately bail on them the moment the polls say it unpopular? Do you honestly believe that won't happen?

I KNOW Sanders would stand up for LGBTQ rights. For trans right. His record shows it. Hillary, who won't even do the right thing on forms? I have no faith what-so-ever.

And I think it is Swiftboating because you are saying a person who OUTRIGHT OPPOSED SSM is better on the issue than the person who NEVER opposed any SSM and has one of the best records in the Senate on the issues.



Should she win the nomination, I will vote for her. I know she is not bad on LBGTQ rights. I know she will put a Supreme Court Justice who will promote their /(our if you include the A) rights and try and pass general LGBTQ protections. But I have no faith in her fighting for the hard issues. [/font]

[joshcryer]

47. Damn, slam dunk.

Bravo.

[Bluenorthwest]

68. Well done and the OP was incapable of response, fell into silence destroyed by facts....

So very well said. I'd add that my own lack of faith in her has grown exponentially over the progress of this election cycle, her own statements and those of her supporters have really exiled my heart from this process.

[JudyM]

72. ^^^^THIS^^^^^

Thank you for doing the heavy lifting and letting me relax with breakfast.

[Ash_F]

22. You have not done enough research Onlooker

Keep looking

[LiberalFighter]

23. But But But Susan Sarandon

on Stephen Colbert said that Sanders was for gay rights before it was even the thing to do.

[AzDar]

24. ...

[dchill]

26. No, it's not safe. Not true, either.

[Silver_Witch]

27. BUT WAIT!

President Clinton's actions are not Hillary's REMEMBER...that is what Hillary supporters are always telling us...

And yet here you are posting as if What HER Husband DID is somehow HER ACTIONS.....

Either SHE is HIM and HE is HER or they are separate people - which is it.

Perhaps you don't remember her words....

NO MARRIAGE FOR SAME SEX COUPLES...cause you know Marriage is SACRED.

[MillennialDem]

28. Fuck no.

[northernsouthern]

32. No because it is wrong, and tasteless, and a massive lie.

Sorry Clinton saying Nancy was for helping with Aids is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. We know some people that died in the early 90's...there is no excuse for that. Also unlike Bernie she was against gay marriage...because she was a bit of a bigot. The only reason to deny the rights was because you felt that they did not have the same rights. In the south it is more ok to be a democrat and not be the best for out fellow lgbt community. Just look at the voting records on several of the resent anti lgbt laws...you will find several prohillary anti gay votes. You do a disservice to those who have fought hard and been on the right side to put Johnny come lately as better than Sanders.

[ibegurpard]

35. I suppose so

As long as you don't mind being called out for lying.

[JI7]

37. what did you want him to do ?

[senz]

38. No one is better than Bernie on gay rights. No one.

He does not have a sexist, racist, or homophobic bone in his body.

He's just not like that.

So live with it.

[jfern]

40. WTF? Bernie voted against DADT as well, and never opposed SSM

[Demsrule86]

46. DADT

Was supposed to help gay people by making the military leave them alone...but of course, the military abused it as soon as Bush got in office. It was intended to help.

[jfern]

49. It was ridiculous discrimination

[stone space]

62. Bullshit!

It was intended to help.

[m-lekktor]

41. My gay ass says HELL fucking NO!!

jesus this place is getting too fucking batshit!

I dislike the Clintons as much as I do any republican...

[B Calm]

43. I thought rewriting history was a conservative trait.

[TheKentuckian]

59. It is. Sticking a D next to your name doesn't mean you aren't a conservative

It just means you aren't radically regressive on social issues.

[Armstead]

44. Distortion

Your contention is ridiculous.

First of all I thought Hillary was running on her own merits. If so, you can't lump what the Bill Clinton administration dis as her own record.

If you want to go for the two-for-one though, the Clinton record was mixed. Yes the administration did do some good things -- but hardly groundbreaking. Yes he did propose the gays in the military, partly as political payment to buy off "social liberals" in the election. But it was politically stupid to set out that red flag as one of his first actions in office. And the "don't ask" typified how they did something "liberal," and then when it failed, moved on rather that keeping up the fight.

Other accomplishments, were not exactly profiles in courage either. By that time everyone except the rabid right recognized the dimensions of AIDS and knew it had to be dealt with. And DOMA...well that was one of those cases where they caved rather than stood ground.

Don't minimize Bernie's commitment or attitude. He did support things as mayor to support human rights, including gay rights. In Congress he may not have been a leader on those issue, but he was certainly supportive -- and he was being a leader when he opposed DOMA. He gave the Dems a strategic option to vote against it, but the Dem's didn''t take the lifeline.

His position on gay marriage is distorted. His comment about not being ready to push for that was NOT opposing it. He was simply making a reasoned position that civil unions had made the issue contentious, and it was best to resolve that and let things cool down before the next step. UNLIKE CLINTON, he never said he was opposed to gay marriage or pushed the opinionthat marriage is "between a man and a woman."

[Bluenorthwest]

50. Dishonest bullshit, offensive and I'm forwarding it to the Clinton Campaign so they can

see what is being done in their names. She has GOT to rectify the horrible shit she has unleashed in this Party.

Your candidate is ignorant of even the most basic and vitally important facts of LGBT history. She has made enormous public displays of that ignorance and her supporters on this website have proudly stood cheering for her ignorance and you do yet again here today.

[hellofromreddit]

53. Clinton opposed gay rights for 100% of her time in elected office.

Fact. Compare that to Sanders' record.

[stone space]

55. Bill Clinton signed DOMA into law. Therefore, Bernie's vote against it was useless.

What did that vote do for anyone?

I suppose that Bill's actions really managed to Trump Bernie's vote on DOMA.

If Bernie's vote on DOMA was useless, perhaps we should ask ourselves, "why?"

Is it possible that the pro-DOMA folks are at fault here, rather than the anti-DOMA folks?

[Bluenorthwest]

66. The vast majority of Congressional Democrats voted Yes on DOMA, only 81 No votes in

the combined chambers, each no voter was a hero. Here are some quotes, things Members said on the floor prior to the DOMA vote:

Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.): “I rise in strong opposition to this ill-named “Defense of Marriage Act” and I do so on the basis of conscience, Constitution and constituency.”

Rep. Neil Abercrombie (D-Hawaii): “I understand some of the people who are sponsoring this bill are on their second or third marriages. I wonder which one they are defending.”

Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-Mass.): “Whether senators are for or against same-sex marriage, there are ample reasons to vote against this bill because it represents an unconstitutional exercise of congressional power.”

Rep. Lynn Woolsey (D-Calif.): “Let us not take part in this assault on lesbian and gay Americans and their families.”

Rep. Carolyn Maloney (D-N.Y.): “Discrimination is discrimination, and it is wrong.”

Rep. Lynn Rivers (D-Mich.): “I rise in opposition to this bill and I oppose it with both my head and my heart.”

Sen. Charles Robb (D-Va.): “I feel very strongly that this legislation is fundamentally wrong, and feeling as I do it would not be true to my conscience or my oath of office if I fail to speak out against it.”

Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-Calif): “To me, this is ugly politics. To me, it is about dividing us instead of bringing us together. To me, it is about scapegoating. To me, it is a diversion from what we should be doing.”

Sen. Bob Kerrey (D-Neb.): “These couples are not hurting us with their actions, in fact they may be helping us by showing us that love can indeed conquer prejudice and hatred.”

Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-N.Y.): “The arguments against gay and lesbian marriage are essentially the same argument that we used to hear against black-white marriages.”

Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.): “This bill isn’t conservative. It’s Big Brother to the core. My judgment is this is a subject that the federal government ought not stick its nose into.”

Rep. John Lewis (D-Ga.): “Why do you want to destroy the love they hold in their hearts? Why do you want to crush their hopes, their dreams, their unions, their aspirations? We are talking about human beings, people like you.”

Rep. Steve Gunderson (R-Wis.): “Why shouldn’t my partner of 13 years be entitled to the same health insurance and survivor’s benefits that individuals around here, my colleagues with second and third wives are able to give to them?”

Rep. Patsy Mink (D-Hawaii): “It seems to be quite apparent that our court system is going to yield a decision which will validate same-sex marriage.”

Rep. Gerry Studds (D-Mass.): “We are going to prevail, Mr. Chairman. And we’re going to prevail just as every other component of the Civil Rights movement in this country has prevailed.”

Sen. Carol Moseley-Braun (D-Ill.): “I hope that every person on this floor who is going to look at and vote on this bill considers for a moment what the judgment of history might be if 50 years from now their grandchildren look at their debates and look at their words in support of this mean-spirited legislation, and consider the judgment that will be cast upon them then.”

[inchhigh]

57. in what alternate universe is that true?

You clearly know nothing about either of their positions. He was there for us 20 years ago when she was stil still stumping for a (fillandering) man and a woman. She will sell us out in a heartbeat.

[byyiminy]

64. Answer: No.

Clinton is a flip-flopper. Sanders was consistent throughout his years.

[cherokeeprogressive]

67. LOL okay.

[jack_krass]

69. Oh dear god. nt.

[99Forever]

70. Since blatant lying is now normal for the Democratic Party...

...perhaps you're right.

Maybe it's time to say up is down too!

[polly7]

73. Whoa ....... great thread (for all the replies proving you 100% wrong). nt.

[Warren DeMontague]

76. Sure!

If we're just making shit up, it absolutely is!

[beedle]

78. Remember folks, It's not right to alert

on the reality handicapped.