2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumI've seen a number of these "switched to Hillary" posts.
Does anyone have a comparative count of "Switched to Hillary" vs "Switched to Bernie?" This is a good one.
https://medium.com/robinalperstein/on-becoming-anti-bernie-ee87943ae699#.avb3lmmz8
smiley
(1,432 posts)Whoever wrote that has never been a Sanders' supporter.
AgerolanAmerican
(1,000 posts)Last one of those I saw, I checked out the person who claimed he just switched to Hillary (last week) but his opensecrets records showed donations to Hillary going back to August and none to Sanders.
Given that there's zero reason for a Sanders supporter to switch (people support Sanders basically because Hillary is exactly the kind of politician they don't want), I'd expect that every last one of these stories is a fabrication.
Baobab
(4,667 posts)I feel the same way about it.
all american girl
(1,788 posts)just a gut feeling or do you have any facts to back that up? Just asking, because you seem pretty positive about it. I'm a Hillary supporter now, but spent a long time going back and forth before I decided on her...sometimes people do that.
smiley
(1,432 posts)all american girl
(1,788 posts)but something along those lines. I guess I'm willing to believe her.
Baobab
(4,667 posts)Last edited Wed Apr 20, 2016, 06:15 PM - Edit history (1)
For example, the backdrop to her much hyped health care program was a trade deal that was quietly and systematically making affordable health care FTA-illegal, bit by bit. It was signed in 1995.
"her health care program" was contemporaneous with negotiations running up to the world trade organizations trade in services agreement which made most health care cost savings methods FTA illegal- basically - For example, creation of new "nonconforming monopolies" or "state owned enterprises" etc. FTA illegal.
the best work on the issue is a paper by a gentlemen named Nicholas Skala, in the International Journal of Health Services, Volume 39, Number 2, Pages 363387, 2009
smiley
(1,432 posts)Sorry, but you were right in your first post. Gut feeling.
It seems to be what you're going on with your opinion also, correct?
Baobab
(4,667 posts)If so, you should set up focus groups and pay people. Time is money.
all american girl
(1,788 posts)a nobody.
Bill USA
(6,436 posts)piece and prove that they are invalid.
Having a feeling in your gut, doesn't prove anything.
Baobab
(4,667 posts)verified facts and indisputable.
For example, "her health care program" was a diversionary tactic so that Americans would not look at the negotiations running up to the world trade organizations trade in services agreement which made creation of new "nonconfrming monopolies" or "state owned enterprises" etc. FTA illegal.
the best work on the issue is a paper by a gentlemen named Nicholas Skala, in the International Journal of Health Services, Volume 39, Number 2, Pages 363387, 2009
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)I am very skeptical of a person switching either way. I'm sure it happens, but I believe almost nothing of what I read in a political context.
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)...is what happens when he endorses and stumps for her.
boomer55
(592 posts)Baobab
(4,667 posts)on the street. Do you want to see what the hot news in his section of the world was at that time?
It was this paper: https://www.clear.rice.edu/comp551/papers/HalloyEtAl-RobotsAndRoaches-Science2007.pdf
he claimed it was interesting because it proved that deep pocketed clients could literally throw money at a problem and influence human behavior, exactly like they did with roaches, quite similar.
the fake bloggers just have to "smell right".
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)The accounts I have seen all follow pretty much the same plot line, and use similar language, hit the same talking points, etc. Obviously, there is a bin of these somewhere, and some posters have access to the bin.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)vimeo.com/163178551
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Just how deep into the sewers are the Bernie people going to swim? I would think any real progressive would be thoroughly embarrassed at using this video - let alone posting it multiple times on this site.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)Her war hawk attitudes.
This comment comes in response to a possible Iranian nuclear attack against Israel. Jesus!
I think this clip is absolutely right on her attitude toward our military, regime change and support of more war. She almost acts like she looks forward to a chance to use our nuclear weapons again. As if we haven't learned from the first time.
She has always shown how power hungry she is personally, and as POTUS, she would be playing battleship in real life, with the power of our MIC. She lives for power...the power of the US to do anything it wants against anyone, any time, if it makes us appear stronger. Problem is, it does not really make us stronger. In the eyes of the world it makes us weaker. Less of a leader.
People who are cowards are war hawks. True bravery is working for peace in the midst of turmoil.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)would do anything differently if Iran hit Israel with nukes shows the level of your fantasy about the man.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)SMH
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)shoving words into my mouth is a replacement for intelligent, cogent argument. I didn't say anything like that. I said US President would roast Iran for nuking Israel and you'd have to be delusional to think otherwise. Is that too difficult an argument for you to follow?
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)Hillary said she would use nukes. I don't think Bernie would.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)entirely different things...as President, you can't take anything off the table. It gives the perception of weakness.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)if she is not actually willing to do it, bluffing, is not good policy. Look at the countries that do that...Always authoritarian or dictatorships and war aggressive countries do this kind of bluffing...Putin, Netanyahu, Kim Jong-un, the ayatollah, and Republicans in the US.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)the pearl clutching. I didn't say she was bluffing - willing to consider something and actually doing it are two entirely different things and has nothing to do with bluffing. When al assad ran over the "red line" that Pres Obama made, he made Pres Obama look like a neophyte weakling. It was an embarrassment. REAL leaders don't take anything off the table.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)You are OK with her going nuclear, like she said she might.
You can't have it both ways.
matt819
(10,749 posts)Does anyone believe them?
Are they legit?
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,676 posts)They seem awfully similar.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)But it's important to read what they say and how they say it.
If someone writes "I supported Hillary until I saw what an oligarch she was!" then I'm immediately suspicious.
bvf
(6,604 posts)Why would anonymous posters on the internet LIE about such things?
This is definitely one of the stupidest questions ever asked, at least since the internet's been around.
What's just as stupid is the supposition that anyone would want to hide such a gloriously idiotic string of words.
Lucinda
(31,170 posts)anotherproletariat
(1,446 posts)it turns out that they are just a politician trying to gain power for themselves by saying whatever it takes to get the voters. Unfortunately the young voters are the most easily swayed, and not yet set in their ways politically. When it's all over, and they finally realize that the emperor has no clothes, they are either disillusioned and turn away from politics, or decide to try and work within the system we have to institute incremental change. Like it or not, this is how our democracy was set up by the men who wrote the rules almost 250 years ago.
I think one of the reasons we have such a low voter turn-out rate historically is because of those who were idealistic and then come to realized that our system is designed to work slowly, and that sudden change just doesnt happen. People want instant gratification, and if they dont see it coming, they withdraw. I expect that will happen to a fair number of Sanders supporters, but hopefully they will be able to put the blame where it belongs and not sabotage the Democratic nominee.
eastwestdem
(1,220 posts)I know you are right about how things really work (and how things will probably turn out this year) but it is nice to see so many people getting involved. Hopefully they are not being filled with too much hate (on all sides), because either way there will be many more candidates and many more elections that need passionate supporters. I'm with Bernie until the end, but if he pulls out it may take a few weeks, but I'm sure I'll eventually support Hillary.
ThePhilosopher04
(1,732 posts)By the same token, I doubt there are many hardcore Hillary supporters who will switch to Bernie, though my guess is that's a more likely scenario considering he was relatively unknown as late as last May. Most minds are made up. It's a fight for soft leans and Independents, most of which are already with Bernie.
shadowandblossom
(718 posts)just pointing it out.
ThePhilosopher04
(1,732 posts)They don't change barring a major turn of events which hasn't happened in this instance.
shadowandblossom
(718 posts).
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and you find Hillary support going back to 2008 and before-really it's insulting to intelligence
delrem
(9,688 posts)Betrayals and worse.
Like stop the clocks, I want to get off this ride.
But it isn't possible. So there's that for a kicker.
It's post citizens united, post internet and post social media, where both sides have learned how to coordinate PACs funded by unlimited dark money with their campaigns.
I tell ya, we've still hardly started seeing the fireworks as this money-bomb goes off and it isn't pleasant to be hit by it.
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)And don't fool.anyone. they were never for Bernie. Would I settle for Hillary? It would be a Sophie's Choice...
betsuni
(25,472 posts)Bernie Sanders is intellectually lazy.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)shadowandblossom
(718 posts)It seems like nobody can disagree with you. Other people have other views. It's just life.
Baobab
(4,667 posts)that was why I voted for HRC. now, it seems she has them.
They may work for some third party, I can think of several industries that likely want Sanders to fail.
BlueMTexpat
(15,366 posts)nails it, as does this description of his "work" in the Senate.
I want someone who will work hard to address the problems we have, not pull stunts like last week's visit to Rome. That's why I support Hillary and have from the beginning, although at the beginning, I too liked SBS and was glad to see him in the race.
Now I absolutely do NOT. No way. No how. Nevermore. Enough.
Eric J in MN
(35,619 posts)He cast one of the 60 votes needed to give us Obamacare.
Regarding the trip to the Vatican, if HRC had given a speech there about world poverty, would you call it a "stunt"?
BlueMTexpat
(15,366 posts)simply an amendment here or there. Further, these amendments are certainly not specific to women's issues. Casting one of the 60 votes needed for Obamacare is laudable on Bernie's part, but hardly a maverick political gesture since he had plenty of good company. In fact, it seems somewhat hypocritical now when all he wants is to start over from scratch with health care instead of strengthening and building upon its good aspects as Hillary wants to.
Making a difference includes a long list of pro-women's and children's rights accomplishments such as Hillary accomplished - even before she was First Lady of the US - and has continued to accomplish since, even on a global level. Do you have any idea how courageous it was for her to go to Beijing, China in 1995, for example, to declare that "women's rights are human rights" and stand up to the Government of China's one-child policy and dowry rights? http://time.com/4125236/hillary-clinton-beijing-speech-video/ This speech, btw, is considered by American Rhetoric to be one of the top American speeches. See, e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_Rights_Are_Human_Rights and http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/hillaryclintonbeijingspeech.htm It also helped to provide the impetus for the creation of UN Women (http://www.unwomen.org/en) in 2010.
What programs has Bernie initiated and seen through to fruition that have specifically helped women? What has he said about the outrageous and consistent GOPer efforts to overturn Roe v Wade and initiate personhood legislation, etc.? You should be able to find at least something if he is so much the better candidate for women.
In re your query about the Vatican, yes, I would indeed have called it a stunt, if Hillary had done it. I would possibly have called it something even worse.
But HRC has the great good sense not to get herself invited to any program in a foreign country that could possibly be misconstrued while she is in the middle of a campaign for President of the US; certainly she would never attend a program that was sponsored in a foreign country by a religious institution that has a long history of interference in internal governmental politics (although not so much in recent centuries) and certainly not one with severe anti-women reproductive rights policies. Not only is this mixing up Church and State - a REAL no-no per the US Constitution - it is against protocol, period. Foreign leaders, etc. tend to want to keep on the sidelines during political campaigns so that they don't inadvertently make an enemy of the person who ends up being elected. Hillary knows that and any candidate who has an actual glimmer about foreign policy also knows that. Bernie's doing this showed what an abysmal chasm there is between Hillary's knowledge and experience and Bernie's.
Bernie was under the mistaken impression that the document under discussion was written by Pope Francis. It was not, but rather by Pope John Paul II and he even had to be corrected while at the conference. Bernie also deliberately gave the impression to those who asked that his invitation had come from the Pope. It had not.
The Pope and foreign Heads of State (assuming they are compos mentis) will bend over backwards NOT to give the impression that they favor any particular candidate over another - especially during a US election. This is an unwritten role. Bernie and his campaign either didn't understand it or did understand and simply ran roughshod over it. Bernie's practically forcing a meeting with Pope Francis when the Pope's focus was on the serious humanitarian situation with refugees from various ME conflicts who are trying desperately to get to Europe and are currently in dire circumstances was a major faux pas.
From Bernie's own account of their meeting, he didn't even acknowledge the Pope's mission to Lesbos. Per CNN"s account,
"I just wanted to let him know how appreciative I was and the extraordinary role he's playing throughout the world in raising consciousness about massive levels of income and wealth inequality," he said. http://edition.cnn.com/2016/04/16/politics/bernie-sanders-pope-francis-vatican-visit/
democrattotheend
(11,605 posts)I saw a post over the weekend that busted the Clinton campaign for doing that before.
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
(107,922 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)Traditionally they have followed the 1_2 pattern of:
1. Post an op swearing some kind of loyalty to Sanders in the Sanders group;
2. one week later or maybe a bit longer, if the troll has that much restraint, post an OP to GD: P explaining why they're switching to Clinton.
Preferred, but optional, is some poetry explaining that the switch was because "Bernie supporters" are racist, misogynist, totally awful "Berniebros".
That's the tradition according to Brock, circa 2015-6.
So, where ya been, bro'?
LAS14
(13,783 posts)If they are any way in public life you can do similar research.
Can you point to one where there is no history to back up the story? I'm sure there are some, but there are a lot where history proves their story.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Every supporter of Sanders who regularly reads the Sanders group knows the names of those posters who waltzed in there, declaring their loyalty to Sanders, and who then in a few moments of random 1's and 0's, of random pixels, posted their official creed of conversion to the HRC camp, thereafter to go for the nads of "Sanders supporters" as being the nastiest of vermin. There were enough of these lovelies to form a pattern.
Hey, perhaps it fooled you?
Every supporter of Sanders, even though they might not read the Sanders group very much, knows the Rovian fill_in_the_blanks hand outs of the "I'm a Bernie supporter but..." posters, and who they are.
But perhaps they fool you?
This is standard stock at this point in time, and your pretense that it has to be proven to you to exist, with call-outs of posters, before it can be admitted to exist, is going nowhere. You're just trolling for a "hide".
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)Its like watching a bad movie.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)Kittycat
(10,493 posts)They stand within 2 pts of each other. A statistical tie.
longship
(40,416 posts)It's made up shit.
Bill USA
(6,436 posts)Last edited Tue Apr 19, 2016, 06:38 PM - Edit history (1)
This woman must be an attorney or professional writer - or BOTH.
I have thought some of the points she made .. but she expressed them so well!
thanks for this EXCELLENT post!
recommended, bookmarked.
jack_krass
(1,009 posts)Eric J in MN
(35,619 posts)...was persuaded to vote against Bernie Sanders by EVERY criticism of him.
No matter how fair or unfair, big or small, about what he did or his supporters did, EVERY criticism of him combined supposedly got her to vote against Sanders.
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)pat_k
(9,313 posts)Eric J in MN
(35,619 posts)The authors of the "I used to be for Bernie Sanders but then I realized he's terrible" essays can never point to a prior essay in which they tried to persuade people to vote for him.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)Eric J in MN
(35,619 posts)...in which an anonymous writer claimed to be a guy in a photo cheering Bernie Sanders in a crowd at one of his rallies, and the one by a woman who is a Daily Kos front-pager. None of them wrote previous essays urging people to vote for Bernie Sanders.
bobbobbins01
(1,681 posts)And in it he was hanging out with Chelsea in 2015.