I understand why so many people support Sanders.

[yardwork]

I understand why so many people feel discouraged. When I was growing up in the 1960s, people could raise a family and live comfortably on one salary. If you had a skill or did well in college, you were very likely to get a decent paying job, and if you did well at your job, you were very likely to keep that job all your career and retire with a good pension. People could take care of their families. There wasn't much of a safety net, but there didn't need to be for many people, because health care, while limited, wasn't that expensive.

Of course things sucked for people outside the mainstream power structure. If you were a person of color, or gay, or any other kind of minority, you probably didn't get the same access to these good things. If you were a woman you probably had to marry a man to get access to economic security. In terms of civil rights and greater opportunity for everybody, we've come a long way.

And yet. A lot of us are being left behind in this beautiful high-tech 21st century. It's a much scarier place for a lot of people. I have sons in their twenties. Both support Bernie, and I understand all the reasons that Bernie's messages resonate with them. I understand why they are suspicious of the Clintons and all the other politicians who have been around for so long and things just seem to get worse instead of better.

I even understand why certain kinds of people think that Trump might have the answers. After all, there's a long history of dictators gaining power by blaming "those people" for bad times. We should pay attention to that.

From my perspective, most of the problems have been caused by Republicans. They get in office and everything gets much worse. Then the Democrats get in office and they don't really fix things, they just hold the line until another extremist right-winger seizes control and jerks the country further to the right. Rinse and repeat. That's the story of the country during my lifetime.

I support Hillary Clinton even though I understand that she is a flawed and in some ways infuriating candidate. She is not perfect, but she has a long history of working within the system to try to make it better. Look, if all she cared about was herself, she could have made tens of millions as a corporate attorney. The speaking fees are chump change. Really.

I remember in the 1990s when Hillary tried valiantly, as First Lady, to develop a comprehensive health care bill. It died on arrival in the hostile Republican Congress. It's a miracle that Obama got the ACA passed, as inadequate as it is in so many ways (I am a firm believer in single payer - we should simply expand Medicare to all - don't you think that the Democrats would have done it if they could?)

I see people blaming Hillary for our foreign relations disasters in Latin America. Our bad behavior there goes back to the 19th century. That didn't start or end with Hillary. Same with the Middle East. Do you really think that Trump will make it better? Check out what Mexican leaders are saying about him. Think about the implications for the U.S. economy if we alienate all our trade partners. Did you hear what Trump said about all our trade partners last night? Mexico, China, Japan - do you really think that the U.S. will survive economically if we piss off the rest of the world? That's your job disappearing.

Vote for whichever Democratic candidate you prefer in the primaries, and then vote for the Democratic candidate in the general election.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. Your points are very valid..........until you get to Hillary.

And there we part ways.

Why vote for the person who won't make the changes we need?

And she won't.

[yardwork]

2. Then vote for Sanders in the primary. But whichever wins, be sure to support the Democrat in the GE.

That's all I'm saying.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

4. You know I will vote for Bernie in the primary.

After that, I have not fully decided.

[obamanut2012]

24. wow

[Dawgs]

32. Same here. Something has to change soon.

Voting for Clinton will do nothing but delay the solutions to our problems. By then it will probably be too late.

[nilesobek]

39. There is no other choice.

Even though I support Sanders and believe him a better candidate for me. The Republicans have already gained control of two branches of government. To lose the POTUS would be catastrophic.

Hillary deserves congratulations and our total support. I think she has to run this type of moderate or slightly right wing in order to win the general.

She might shift surprisingly left after her victory.

[yardwork]

44. You make very good points.

Hillary is not the right-wing demon she is made out to be. As senators, she and Bernie voted the same something like 93% of the time (and sometimes her positions were more to the left than his, as with gun control).

[gcomeau]

62. FFS

Even though I support Sanders and believe him a better candidate for me. The Republicans have already gained control of two branches of government. To lose the POTUS would be catastrophic.

Therefore I absolutely MUST vote for the candidate polling worse against all the possible Republican GE candidates.

Logic!

She might shift surprisingly left after her victory.

Uh-huh... and what about every single year of her entire life up until this point where she has shown no inclination to do that leads you to believe this is a possibility we should hang any hopes on?

[yardwork]

65. I think that the poster was talking about the general election, not the primaries.

[VulgarPoet]

3. I just don't want to wind up with REASON to regret my vote further down the line.

Don't get me wrong. I may need to be drunk to do it, but at least I'll be able to at least hold on. But I desperately WANT her to be able to prove my many misgivings about her wrong. I don't want to catch myself, sitting in a Network Focal Point in the sand pit with mortars coming down around server racks like "I shouldn't have voted for Hillary, I knew she'd do this".

Especially not when it's starting to look like going into the military just to go to college may have been a waste of time.

[yardwork]

6. All I can say is that a vote for Trump is something that will definitely be regretted.

I remember in 2000 when a lot of progressives said that Gore was just as bad as W. And so we got W - and things got much, much worse. Much worse than they would have if we had had Gore in the White House.

This same thing happened in 1980, when progressives got mad at Jimmy Carter and so we ended up with Reagan. Immeasurably worse. And we had 12 years of that crap.

Just as Obama inherited a mess from W and turned it around quite a bit, I remember when Bill Clinton inherited the shit storm that 8 years of Reagan and 4 of GHW Bush had created - and he turned it around quite a bit.

Weirdly enough, I trust Hillary. I trust her to be what she's always been - centrist, moderate, infuriatingly middle of the road. Just like Obama. (I grew to like him quite a bit but his cabinet appointments!! Republicans?!)

Hilly Clinton is not the demon she's made out to be.

[grasswire]

5. I hear everything you are saying...

.....but I cannot understand two things:

1. Polls show that Bernie beats Trump more significantly than Hillary might. She is only 1 point ahead of him, and Bernie is 7 points, last I saw (which were taken before the news of her aide being granted immunity). So that point of yours is moot.

2. Why do you not honor the intentions and intelligence of your sons by voting for the person they believe in? The future is theirs, not yours. Not ours. Your children will benefit significantly by the knowledge that you are open minded and respectful of their future.

[msongs]

10. vote for someone because your children are voting for that someone? tomorrow belongs to them? nt

[Lizzie Poppet]

68. Congratulations: you got away with calling a DU'er a Nazi. Bet you're proud.

This seemingly-innocuous post is actually a really vile insult. It's an obvious reference to the famous scene in the movie Cabaret in which a Nazi (Hitler Youth, specifically) sings the German folk song "Tomorrow Belongs to Me." The poster called another DU'er a Nazi, and probably think they're being clever. They're not. Please consider hiding...

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Fri Mar 4, 2016, 02:14 PM, and voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: OK, yeah - I do think they're trying to be insulting on second look, pretty clever tho'.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No, it is not obvious. This is really alert stalking at it's finest.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: umm I take the alerters point, (if its true) but I cant vote to hide because of what the alerter has seen as their intentions. Before the second explanation I had no clue why it was being alerted. So I voted to leave alone because I doubt ppl will see it the way the alerter sees it without the back story
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This seems to be a bit of a stretch. Maybe because the movie Cabaret was popular a generation before my time?

[yardwork]

11. I'll answer in reverse order. First, I would no more vote just to match my sons than I would expect

them to match my vote. I took my sons to vote with me from the time they were born. I talked to them about politics all their lives. Now they have the right to make their own choices. I'm proud that they are involved and engaged.

Your point about the polls - the media and the Republicans have not yet begun to attack Sanders. If he is our nominee, they will go bananas with his history of avowed communism, time in a kibbutz, honeymoon in the Soviet Union. None of those things bother me but they will bother 95% of America and you will see the polls change real fast.

Hillary, on the other hand, has been pre-vetted. That woman has had tons of shit thrown at her for decades (not all of it undeserved) and she just keeps trucking. She is tough as nails. Gotta admire that. Look at her presence during the Benghazi hearing alone. Wow.

[grasswire]

18. your second point is a talking point, sorry.

Americans have barely begun to hear about the excesses, crimes, and greed of the Clintons.

The difference here being that there are no excesses, greed, or crimes in Bernie's history. There's nothing except a different perspective on governance.

Hillary is under FBI investigation. That's the latest, but not the worst of it.

[yardwork]

20. We disagree on this.

I feel strongly that if the Republicans were to turn their media machine on Bernie Sanders, it would be all over. They haven't done it yet because they are hoping that he will be our nominee.

I grew up in the rural midwest. I have lived in the south for decades. I know how people think. I had to argue with my plumber in 2008 that Obama was not really a communist. You can't imagine how people will react. There would be a stampede to vote for the Republican. It's sad, I don't agree with it, but there it is.

[Dawgs]

36. Aren't you kind of arguing against yourself?

Republicans attacked Obama (an AA in racist America) by calling him a socialist (communist), muslum, terrorist, and everything else they could thing of...and yet he still won.

Why don't you think Bernie can do the same? Your argument really makes no sense. Plus, Bernie's appeal is strong with Indy's and moderate Republicans. Much more than Obama.

[yardwork]

47. Sanders' history has much more for the right-wing to attack than Obama's history ever did.

However, it's really a moot point, as I'm not opposing Sanders. If he wins the nomination I will support him in all ways. I've chosen to support Hillary in the primaries for a variety of reasons, one of which is that I personally believe that she is more easily electable than Bernie. I might be wrong, but that doesn't make me a horrible person, which, sadly, I read that I am on DU on a regular basis, even in this very thread.

[oasis]

7. Great OP, yardwork. Kicked and recommended.

[yardwork]

13. Thanks so much.

[Armstead]

8. Our age and observations sound very similar

I will ultimately yield (once again) to the "hold your nose" .......But I support Bernie and truly believe we really need more leaders like Sanders REALLY soon, or we're toast as a party and as a nation.

[yardwork]

12. I can't argue with that. And I won't.

[NurseJackie]

9. Well ... you tried.

[DrDan]

14. I can relate to your post - to include supporting Hillary

[yardwork]

17. Thank you!

[Starry Messenger]

15. K&R

[yardwork]

16. And to the person who just sent me a nasty PM:

If you don't have the courage to post your nasty response to my OP right here in the thread, don't bother to send me a PM. I will block PMs from you, as I just did.

[Lizzie Poppet]

21. As a staunch Sanders supporter...

...let me chime right in and say that sending nasty PMs is just unacceptable, period. You did right to block that person, and I find their action to be an embarrassment.

[yardwork]

23. Thank you. I appreciate it. I look at everybody as an individual.

[obamanut2012]

25. Good lord, honestly?

[jeff47]

19. Ya kinda went off the rails at this point.

From my perspective, most of the problems have been caused by Republicans. They get in office and everything gets much worse. Then the Democrats get in office and they don't really fix things, they just hold the line until another extremist right-winger seizes control and jerks the country further to the right. Rinse and repeat. That's the story of the country during my lifetime.

You've described the problem well....but then you go on to support a candidate who will continue the problem.

For example, Clinton can't tweak the ACA to make it better. She needs Congress to do that. Mostly she needs Republican-controlled state legislatures to do that. And there's nothing in her platform or plans that can shake up the status quo enough to break the Republican control of Congress and those legislatures.

So the result is going to be holding the line yet again.

Sanders's proposals won't immediately pass either. But his "ponies" have the possibility of attracting disaffected voters back to the polls, and thus might disrupt that Republican control. Gerrymandering is only about a 10% "bonus" to the Republicans, in order to get as many districts as possible. So even a relatively small shake-up of the status quo has the potential to swing a lot of districts.

My reading of your post is you want to continue playing defense, and protect what little has been won. We believe it is long past time to push for more.

And with us facing an insane talking yam on the Republican side, it is the best time to aim higher.

[yardwork]

22. I agree with much of what you say, but I don't think that Bernie Sanders is the right one.

Upthread I talk about how people will panic if Bernie were to be our nominee and the right-wing noise machine got ahold of his history.

Edited to add that I love: "insane talking yam on the Republican side."

[jeff47]

46. And I don't see the panic with voters we can win.

Republican voters would panic. But we're not going to win Republican voters with either Sanders or Clinton.

We've spent decades worrying about attracting Republican voters, and we constantly fail to do so. The side effect of those efforts has been to massively increase the number of disaffected and independent voters. (And keep in mind Democratic-leaning independents are to the left of the median Democrat, so "run to the center" isn't going to get these independents)

Let's stop trying to attract the people we can not possibly get, and return our focus to the voters we can get.

[yardwork]

50. It's been very difficult for us to win any elections. To do so we have to attract independents.

For a variety of reasons, the voters in the U.S. are all fairly conservative right now.

You and others are correct in that my strategy is to "hold the line" against the far-worse Republicans, and I do see why that is frustrating to people who believe that we can have an important shift to the left now. I wish that I agreed, but Sanders has not persuaded me that he can do this.

[jeff47]

54. No, voters really aren't conservative.

For a variety of reasons, the voters in the U.S. are all fairly conservative right now.

And polling shows this is not the case.

For example, a majority of all voters wants single-payer.

Democrats have just accepted as truth that voters are conservative, and only offer conservative Democrats. When they lose, the argument is our candidates were not conservative enough.

In the meantime, Democrats have gone from about 50% of the electorate to about 30% of the electorate. Those people didn't become Republican. They became Democratic-leaning independents.

And polling shows Democratic-leaning independents are to the left of the median Democrat. Saying "we need to go right to get independents" is exactly the wrong thing to do.

It isn't 1984 anymore. It hasn't been 1984 for a long time. Let's stop running as if it is still 1984.

[yardwork]

56. I agree with a lot of what you are saying.

The proof of what you are saying is that Bernie Sanders - an open Socialist of all things - is doing as well as he is doing. It is a very good sign. I don't think that he can go all the way this time, but I think it's a very good sign that he's gotten this far.

His campaign needs to work on messaging and outreach to people of color. That has been a big problem, and it's made me mad. I'm white, but my spouse is Latina, and we are mad as fire about what happened with Dolores Huerta. Things like that may seem small, but they're not.

[Jitter65]

26. Bernie will be as lost as Trump on what to do as President.

Both are great cult figures with devoted, energetic followers with the same enemy. But neither is who or what we need as President.

[yardwork]

33. Well, I wouldn't say AS lost as Trump. Nowhere near as lost, in fact.

If Sanders could get elected I think he might be an interesting president, although I suspect he would be much more like Jimmy Carter than FDR.

Really, I will happily vote for whichever one of them is nominated, for different reasons. But anybody who votes for Trump - or sits out the election and lets Trump win - earns my scorn.

[Bluenorthwest]

27. I don't presume to know the hearts and minds of others as you so freely do but I can speak for me

and I'm not voting for Hillary in the Primary because of her heartless opposition to marriage equality for so many hurtful and very personal years. That was her choice, her hypocrisy and I do not play that game.

[yardwork]

29. Trump will be marvelous for our kind. He said so last night.

[Bluenorthwest]

31. So you demand my Primary vote with threats of Trump? You used to be a person.

nt

[yardwork]

34. Take a chill pill. I'm not demanding anything from you.

And stop with the ad hominem attacks. "Used to be a person." Oh the drama.

[Bluenorthwest]

38. Your response to me was rude, dismissive and not a response at all. You and I used to get along.

Your OP is about the two primary candidates and voting for the nominee. I told you why I made my choice and you said TRUMP at me. AT me.

You did not offer an actual response to what I said to you. You bit my head off instead and it hurts. So enjoy your snippy little trip. You scored. It hurt. That's what you folks dig. Drink it in. Your arrow struck, oh joy for your side.

[yardwork]

59. Actually, I think that your first post in this thread to me was rude and dismissive.

Your subsequent replies have gotten ruder and ruder. "You used to be a person" is a terrible thing to say to somebody.

"That's what you folks dig" is also really mean, and totally off the mark. I don't even know what "folks" I'm supposed to be allied with here - Hillary supporters? We're all horrible people?

My first response to you was not intended as an insult in any way. I'm pointing out that the prospect of Trump is sobering for me as a gay person. Also, my wife is Latina so there's a concern as well. In other words, I too have personal reasons to literally fear the outcome of this election.

I'm sorry that you felt attacked and I wish that I could salvage this somehow. I do not want to hurt you, score points, or do any of the other terrible things you're accusing me of here. Please consider how this looks from my point of view.

[Zorra]

28. Third Way, New Democrats ENABLED Republicans to get in office.

Have you not heard us screaming for decades at Democrats for not legislating like Democrats? Have you not seen and heard our warnings day after day, year after year, about Third Way New Democrats destroying the Democratic Party? Do you not see that Republicans have huge majorities in Congress and State legislatures? Have you never seen us post this repeatedly on DU:

"I've seen it happen time after time. When the Democratic candidate allows himself to be put on the defensive and starts apologizing for the New Deal and the fair Deal, and says he really doesn't believe in them, he is sure to lose. The people don't want a phony Democrat. If it's a choice between a genuine Republican, and a Republican in Democratic clothing, the people will choose the genuine article, every time; that is, they will take a Republican before they will a phony Democrat, and I don't want any phony Democratic candidates in this campaign.

But when a Democratic candidate goes out and explains what the New Deal and fair Deal really are--when he stands up like a man and puts the issues before the people--then Democrats can win, even in places where they have never won before. It has been proven time and again." ~ Harry Truman, May 17, 1952

I think I first posted this on DU over 10 yrs ago:

"Democrats moving to the middle is a double disaster that alienates the party's progressive base while simultaneously sending a message to swing voters that the other side is where the good ideas are.' It unconsciously locks in the notion that the other side's positions are worth moving toward, while your side's positions are the ones to move away from. Plus every time you move to the center, the right just moves further to the right." ~ George Lakoff

[yardwork]

30. I've heard screaming all my life. /nt

[Zorra]

35. Then please vote for Bernie, and help us make the screaming stop. nt

[forjusticethunders]

37. Thank you for trying to understand

From my perspective, most of the problems have been caused by Republicans. They get in office and everything gets much worse. Then the Democrats get in office and they don't really fix things, they just hold the line until another extremist right-winger seizes control and jerks the country further to the right. Rinse and repeat. That's the story of the country during my lifetime.

After decades of this, you start feeling that it's rigged, that the Dems don't really WANT the system to get better, they are just fine with the little people getting fucked over, that it's some WWE kayfabe shit. And Bernie is the only politician that SEEMS like he isn't okay with that.

Also a lot of us came out of being young/youngish those Clinton 90s where we actually thought that we would be able to do good in school, work reasonably hard, and have a comfortable life - even if you were black or Hispanic or female. The hope was economic security and prosperity would be extended to everyone. But instead the opposite is happening, we've had to get more education and take on more debt and taking on more pressure (did you know that our rates of mental illness/anxiety/depression are WORLD HISTORIC?) and it happened whether the Dems or Repubs were in power. That's why working within the system isn't good enough for us anymore, because the system is broken regardless.

Bernie supporters are desperate. We are desperate. Half my friends are working two jobs to survive. I have friends, both white and POC, scraping by on the scraps the system gives them, while the rich and powerful get break after break. I have people in school who often have to choose between books and food, and the only choice they have is to take jobs which only look good compared to overseas sweatshops. Meanwhile some broker in NYC presses a few keys and makes another million. And for a lot of people, Bernie is the only chance this situation improves. Why do you think people are literally sending this guy money out of their pittance wages or their meager disability checks? Desperate.

Now, I understand that without Obama, it would have been *even worse*. As bad as things are, the Republican would likely deliver the coup de grace. But "things suck but they could be worse" isn't really uplifting. And it just felt like Obama was more about restabilizing the status quo than doing anything that might shake things up. Like, no jailing bankers was never going to get the racist right and the racist "indies" behind him but it would have shown that he wasn't in league with the people who trashed the economy. So Hillary might make some gains within the system, but how much will she compromise with the system? How much will she give away to the Republicans to get something passed? And most importantly, when do we make the systemic change? 2020? 2024? 2032? When we lose a few cities to sea level rise? When we actually have no middle class because the last good jobs got replaced by robots?

If Clinton wins and appoints NOBODY from Wall Street, nobody as regulators from the industries they're supposed to regulate (unless they got fired from said industries for being too ethical), holds to the progressive positions that Bernie has pushed her too, then maybe I'll have hope, maybe we can move the Overton window further leftward (not as much as Bernie) and maybe by 2020 we can push for something big. The left is on the ascendancy, my generation is the most left-wing generation this country has EVER produced, we're the most diverse generation this country has EVER produced, we're the most socially tolerant generation this country has EVER produced (even the evangelicals in my age group are cool with marriage equality) and we're going to be voting against Dubya until the day we die. But things are so shitty right now it feels like we just cannot wait.

[Dawgs]

41. Great points.

We can't afford another Obama/Clinton because in another 4 to 8 years it will be too late.

[yardwork]

51. I understand and sympathize.

In many ways, your post reflects how I felt in 1999. And then we got W and we saw how much worse things could get. That's what I fear with a Trump presidency.

But that sounds like I'm dismissing your very real points and your very real concerns, and I don't mean to dismiss them.

[Kittycat]

58. Thank you for your post.

[Dawgs]

40. Interesting because I can't come up with one reason why anyone would support Hillary.

And, I don't mean that to be snarky. I just don't see what other people see.

[bigwillq]

42. Hillary is more of the same broken government

That this country has endured for generations. Sure, she has some good qualities, and she's better than the repubs for the most part, but she doesn't represent the change I am looking for.

Folks shouldn't settle if they have an option where they don't have to. I am glad I live in CT.

[Katashi_itto]

43. Not voting for the lesser of two evils again.

Let it all burn.

[yardwork]

53. "Let it all burn" is not my choice.

If you want a revolution, you can count me out.

[Katashi_itto]

67. Well you want status quo and continued decimation of the middle class.

[forjusticethunders]

45. Also it's important to note

No in 1960-1970 people who weren't cis white males didn't have the same access and that needed to change, obviously. I really would not have wanted to live in even 1970s level race relations, let alone during the Reagan era. But things were trending upward for everyone.

However what people miss in these race versus class arguments is that when the working class gets fucked, the black working class gets fucked first and fucked harder. Union and government jobs were and are critical to uplifting black people into economic security because they are more inclined to protect their workers against discrimination and racism. I'll give you 3 guesses who gets fucked first when neoliberals/free market fundamentalists successfully gut government services and destroy unions.

[yardwork]

57. Well, Sanders' campaign's outreach to people of color has sucked. Really, really sucked.

It's been embarrassing, to be blunt. We can't win if we alienate the base.

[forjusticethunders]

60. Oh I absolutely agree

I support the guy and it's a cringefest a lot of the time. But a economic class analysis does not preclude a direct appeal to black voters, it just requires a better, stronger synthesis, and much better messaging and outreach. Black people are more sympathetic to socialism than white people, not less.

Even then, Bernie had closed to 65-35 with SC AAs and rising then he just kind of blew it.

I actually have a sneaking suspicion that it wasn't so much him, or even his official campaign, but it was the Reddit bros, who brigade anyone who disagrees (and they DO exist and they ARE a problem and while the Hillary camp overplayed it to the level of a smear against all the Bernie supporters, it WAS and IS a problem), that really killed it for him.

Even with all the misseteps he's probably tied with black people my age group - and if POC are the base of the party (and we are), then young POC are the future (again, millenials are 40% POC, and we just hit majority-minority births about 4 years ago).

I really hope any future progressive insurgents read the stuff that's been posted recently about where it went wrong for Bernie.

[yardwork]

64. Totally agree on all points.

The left has long had a fatal flaw when it comes to listening to minorities. Sexism, racism, homophobia - it's been a big problem among the left's leaders for a long time.

The Reddit-style bullying - I don't think the Sanders' campaign anticipated that. I think that they were not prepared for how rude their most fervent supporters could be, or how much this would turn off other core Democratic constituencies.

Also, Susan Sarandon is not a good messenger. Very bad optics to see her yelling at Dolores Huerta. "English only!" = not good at all. I don't for one minute believe that Sanders approved that message, but his campaign let it unfold and never apologized.

[tularetom]

48. I liked a lot of what I saw in your post although I disagree with your conclusion

If you accept the premise that Hillary Clinton represents a continuation of the Obama term, that in itself is sufficient reason to vote against her. Under Obama, the Democrats have lost control of both houses of congress, many governorships, and innumerable state legislative offices. Obama is an eloquent orator, and a very effective campaigner - for himself. He hasn't done squat to help other Democrats get elected.

Hillary lacks the personal charisma of either Obama or Bill Clinton, and she will have even smaller coattails. We won't see any Democratic majorities in congress during her term, and I doubt that she will even work that hard at attempting to get more Democrats elected.

Finally, trade deals. The only value the US has to the rest of the world is as consumers. The way we can continue to be consumers is if Americans have money to spend. The only way we will have money to spend is if we have jobs. Real, long term jobs, not fake "service" jobs. We have sat here and watched our manufacturing sector disappear to Asia and now we want to enact another treaty that will work to prevent it ever coming back.

Obama has been a disappointment. Hillary Clinton will be Obama on steroids with the added benefit of more wars in more places. Apparently we have not yet learned that mushy middle of the roaders are not going to reverse the trends that have damn near destroyed the American middle class over the past 50 years. Hopefully a Hillary Clinton term will wake people up to what a mistake it is to keep voting for more of the same, but maybe it has to get worse before it gets better.

[yardwork]

52. The Clintons are better at supporting down-ticket races than Obama has been.

Hillary is expected to have coat-tails in my state, where we have a chance to get rid of our teabagger governor and elect a moderate Democrat, which is the best we can hope for here now.

[SheilaT]

49. I won't bother to enumerate all the things I think

are wrong with Hillary, but I was rather struck by this statement you made:

Look, if all she cared about was herself, she could have made tens of millions as a corporate attorney. The speaking fees are chump change. Really.

Poor poverty stricken Hillary. Instead of making tens of millions as a corporate attorney, she's made a hundred million or more in those chump change speaker fees.

[sarath749]

55. rule with love

who ever rules..If they rule with love...i hope amazing changes may happen for everyone

[bigwillq]

63. Hello

Welcome to DU!

[Dems to Win]

61. No, Hillary didn't face a hostile republican Congress when she was in charge of Health Care

Bill had a Democratic Congress his first 2 years. Hillary putzed around with her secret health care task force, couldn't develop a coherent plan, threw it into the lap of the committee in the House, and nothing even got brought to a vote. THEN the midterms happened and the Repubs took over, and the issue was dead for the rest of Clinton's presidency and we had to wait 22 years for Obamacare to finally come into effect.

An awfully long wait, when we elected Clinton and a Democratic Congress believing we were going to get universal health care in 1992. NOT a good recommendation for Hillary, when she failed so miserably in her trial run at being president for health care.

No, I don't believe Hillary would or will try to pass single payer health care.

Hillary: " I never seriously considered a single payer system."

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2008/march/hillary_clinton_on_s.php

From a transcript of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton’s interview with Kevin Sack of The New York Times about health care.

The New York Times
March 27, 2008

Q: Let’s talk for a minute about the formulation of your plan. I’m interested in how seriously you considered proposing a single payer system and at what point in that discussion did you decide to propose an individual mandate?

MRS. CLINTON: You know, I have thought about this, as you might guess, for 15 years and I never seriously considered a single payer system. Obviously, I listened to arguments about its advantages and disadvantages, and many people who I have a great deal of respect for certainly think that it is the only way to go. But I said, as you quoted me, that we had to do what would appeal to and actually coincide with what the body politic will and political coalition building was. So I think if you look at most public opinion surveys, even from groups of people who you would think would be pretty positive towards single payer, Americans have a very skeptical attitude. They don’t really know that Medicare is a single payer system. They don’t really think about that. They think about these foreign countries that they hear all these stories about, whether they’re true or not, which they’re often not. And so talking about single payer really is a conversation ender for most Americans, because then they become very nervous about socialized medicine and all the rest of this. So I never really seriously considered it.

No, I don't agree that $20million in speaking fees is chump change. Nor Bill's $200million haul. It's called cashing in on their public service. It's greedy and sleazy and corrupt, and the Democrats are crazy trying to return them to the White House after they've let their greed run amok.

Bernie Sanders 2016!

[yardwork]

66. Hillary's words below your boldface first sentence explain why, and she's right.

You can say that she putzed around and squandered an opportunity to bring a plan to the Democratic Congress, and then the mid-term "contract on America" happened and she lost her chance, and there is some truth in that, but I remember watching all the steps unfold and it was a messy, difficult, infuriating process.

Saying "I want single payer health insurance" doesn't make it happen.

Remember the ad campaign that the private insurance industry ran? Remember how "socialized medicine" was made into the worst thing imaginable? And people ate it up, just like the people cheering at Trump rallies.