I'm not on team blue just because I dislike the color red.

[revbones]

At some point, principles and facts should matter.

Until recently, I had no problem pulling the lever for Hillary if Bernie lost. While I saw her as a corporatist, I expected I would hold my nose because she'd be better than any Republican.

Then I watched her debate Bernie and blatantly lie about both his positions and hers. She (w/ Chelsea & Bill) claimed Bernie would do away with Obamacare and start all over. That $15 was too much to shoot for. Cherry-picking votes from omnibus bills that contained bad things she herself lobbied for. Excusing her own poor judgement with the Iraq vote. Saying that she told Wall St to "cut it out" and that $675,000 directly to her and $2.5million to her campaign is anything but a bribe while she exclaims that it doesn't influence her. The list goes on and on.

No my friends. Integrity matters.

What's been most painful is the incredible willful ignorance of Hillary supporters on this site. I've watched them block people that were only interested in actual conversation, but their candidate can do no wrong and its blasphemy to insinuate that she is anything less than the messiah. If someone quotes a news story or blog post, rather than discuss why it might be false or misleading they attack the poster, or the author, or anyone to avoid confronting the facts.

Granted Hillary has suffered at the right-wing smear machine, but that's served an even more insidious purpose now. It has inoculated Hillary supporters against any consideration against their candidate. Facts be damned, it's Hillary. Anything negative is just right-wing drivel and can't possibly be true.

No, I held myself up as a proud Democrat until this election. It was something to be proud of and I chose this team because it best represented my principles. Now people supposedly on my team are just like supporters on the other team - willfully ignorant and averse to any real consideration of facts. Listening to Trump supporters deflect anything said about Trump, it's the exact same on this forum reading comments in response to someone pointing out a fact like that there are people currently in jail for less than what Hillary's team did in handling classified materials or that millions in Wall St is not just given without expectations. Oh and then follow it up with red-baiting bs. It's disgusting.

Will I vote for Hillary this fall if she wins? I don't know. I do know though that it will be extremely hard to stomach now and her supporters do her no justice by their fact-shaming.

[VulgarPoet]

1. K/R.

I'm going Independent and working with labor and socialist parties. Hillary gets no love in my household.

[mindwalker_i]

2. There is a qualitative difference between Hillary supporters and the rest

It has seemed to be that they follow the (D) blindly, without regard as to what the (D) - in this case Hillary - says or what her positions are. It's also worth noting that a lot of the rabit Hillary supporters here were adamently against Snowden because he exposed something bad that Obama was doing. They were against what Bush did earlier.

So it's a matter of faith. When people have faith in a religion, they are very much under the power of the people representing that religion. We end up with people defending preists who raped their kids because their faith is so much more important than reality. Now, there are people who ignore all the stuff about Hillary and tie themselves in knots to defend her or to be dismissive of the stuff she's done - see the thread on making a drinking game out of her Iraq war vote. Usually someone's religion just screws up their life, but political faith can screw up everyone's lives.

[Raster]

3. We are witnessing the power of the Cult of Hillary...

The entire purpose of the Cult of Hillary is to get Hillary elected, nothing else.

[mindwalker_i]

7. I think it's not just Hillary

The people who rabidly support her do so because she's the magic (D). Look at their attacks on Bernie and specifically how they indignantly say he's not a democrat. It seems to me that most people on this board support democratic ideals. Sanders supports those a lot more than Hillary, hence the huge divide between "camps." Also, a lot of us don't like government spying on us. To the people who have faith in the democratic party, they bash republicans who support government spying and absolutely loath anyone who shows a democrat doing it.

So a lot of their "arguments" are motivated reasoning. It's obvious, and it also makes it really hard for us to claim that democrats are better or more reasonable.

[Raster]

13. There definitely could be some type of cognitive dissonance at play.

[Betty Karlson]

29. Well, it is her turn...

Also 9/11 and a gender.

[Raster]

30. trifecta!

[BreakfastClub]

36. Wrong. nt

[mindwalker_i]

39. That was a really insightful comment, you have convinced me completely!

You refutation of my assertions was subtle and masterful. I can only hope to have your reasoning skills at some point, but I aspire to get them.

[Hortensis]

4. We have very different notions of what integrity is,

including our own, revbones. Maybe look up probity. Integrity -- oh, yeah; lots of people without probity are just full of...integrity, right up to their eyebrows.

IMO, honesty starts with ourselves, not only in being honest but, as this forum makes so clear, honesty in ourselves is required before we can evaluate others for it.

Here's a clue to my thinking: A lie from my mouth is just as dishonest as one from...oh, Hillary or Bernie. My standard for them applies to me too.

[revbones]

5. I"m not sure how to take that

Are you saying you and I have different notions?

I would think that the lack of integrity by Hillary would be evident in the examples I supplied regardless of whichever "notion" you used.

[snooper2]

32. you aren't very good at this yet...

You should have a couple months under your belt before starting the long winded OP...

[revbones]

35. Or the commenter just needs to be a better writer

Or maybe you could just do a personal attack instead of respond to any of the points made in the post.

[snooper2]

38. I thought about it, but blah blah, both sides in this election cycle are fucked

Worst Election Cycle EVA!

Playing Golden Tee with my bud at our local dive yesterday after work and I was messing with some republicans at the bar I know-

Who you voting for tomorrow? They all agreed, they are fucked-
They spin it back to me...I told who I voted for in early voting, but admitted, yep, Us Dems are fucked as well....

Your side is fucked, my side is fucked-

We are all fucked!

Then went back to Golden Tee and some shots of




Rumpleminze makes you less fucked in comparison LOL

[MelungeonWoman]

6. For me it was the Robert Kagan endorsement.

That is a dealbreaker for me. I'm over Hillary.

[geardaddy]

11. I had to look him up

That would be a dealbreaker for me too.

[SoapBox]

8. I am sick of...

Hill and her "scold mode".

30+ years of Clintons and their baggage.

Corrupt the Record and Brock's filthy dirty political lies/tricks.

Being lecture, no ORDERED, to vote as I am TOLD.

Fuck that shit.

[Blue State Bandit]

10. So I guess we should start asking ourselves....

do we call ourselves "the Progressive Party" or go all in with "Berniecrats".

[TheSocialDem]

22. Berniecrats

That has a good ring to it

[Glamrock]

26. I'm down with Berniebros....

And I give a fuck less about the negative connotations. But, then I call myself a Liberal. The more that word is used as an insult, the more it becomes my personal badge of honor....that's just me though.

[Blue State Bandit]

9. She did come around on $15 an hour @Town Hall before SC...

thought it was a bit cynical till I realized, she was just working on her "Bernie" out of costume.

[stupidicus]

12. indeed -- at what point does excessive pragmatism kill any claims to principles?

that's what I struggle with, and with her, far more than any before her.

The 3rdwayers here and elsewhere share more with their rightwing cousins than their abysmal and dishonest "debating" ways and means you noted here.

[Yurovsky]

14. Her & Bill aid and abet the GOP's Operation Incarceration....

and we're supposed to smile, pull the lever for H->, and then STFU.

My conscience is more valuable than wins and loses. If America is so far gone that the best option I have is voting for a candidate who is a wholly owned subsidiary of Goldman Sachs, well, maybe it's time to leave.

[Enthusiast]

15. Kicked and recommended to the Max!

[JCMach1]

16. Principles and facts should also tell you Bernie, or Hillary are the only alternative to fascism

theocracy, or kleptocracy...

[revbones]

17. So you're saying if the one honest person running isn't picked

then it's a choice between corporatism with more wars (Hillary) and fascism with possibly less wars (Trump)?

[gollygee]

33. You think there would be fewer wars with trump than with Hillary?

That's a big assumption.

[revbones]

34. Well, aren't Hillary supporters making big assumptions too?

And that was just going off of their statements and Clintons war-mongering actions.

[gollygee]

37. There are lots of people making lots of assumptions on DU lately

Which is typical during primary season. But he doesn't seem like a peacemaker to me.

[valerief]

18. I don't understand how your favorite group is Hillary Clinton. nt

[revbones]

20. Weird. Didn't see that until you pointed it out.

[revbones]

19. Hillary supporters are like Trump supporters

Last edited Mon Mar 14, 2016, 09:26 PM - Edit history (1)

in their willful ignorance of facts and steadfast inability to consider their candidate might have a flaw.

[FailureToCommunicate]

21. Sad but true.

And belated welcome to DU. Its been a busy few weeks.

[revbones]

24. Thanks nt

[ChiciB1]

23. This Of Us Who Have Stood With Him From The Beginning, Didn't

blindly do so. I endorsed him very early on because I watched Thom Hartmann and he had him on his show on Fridays called
Brunch With Bernie. Even I didn't know much about him, but what he was saying appealed to me. I don't even think there was even a consideration by him to run but I remember thinking I wish we had MORE of him in The Democratic Party. I NEVER thought of him as anything more than a Democrat because he caucused with them all the time. But I liked the fact that he was willing to be up front and say who he was and how he defined himself as he did repeatedly.

Then he announced and began to be attacked with such vehemence that really shocked me. I didn't quite understand it at first because his message was one for ALL the people and I never thought it as one that EXCLUDED anyone. But here we are with a mountain of attacks being slammed against him for anything he might have done that even "looked" suspicious when there's a MOUNTAIN of evidence that clearly shows Hillary isn't who she says she is.

Regardless of what happens I will always remember that we had this chance to change the STATUS QUO and there were too many who were willing let it slip through our hands. However, I have already seen the younger generation refusing to buy the same policies that have been proven to be going the WRONG WAY and want something different!

Hillary is at the core of what has been going on for years and years and has been part of what has even been making things much worse for "we the people" and yet it's Bernie who gets attacked with such venom because he really does want to see "we the people" to have the voice that our Constitution was formed for.

I have to console myself with the fact that real change takes time, but we should have been ready to JUMP ON THE TRAIN much quicker because of all we've seen going wrong for so many years!

Our Congress Critters haven't given a damn about us for so long and too many here seem to feel this is fine and are very comfortable with this, and are also willing to accept more of the same as opposed to be looking forward and realizing that BAND AIDS simply won't work because the WOUNDS are much to huge for them.

Seeing so much refusal by those who simply refuse to see this simply makes no sense to me.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

25. Facts and principles do matter, and you have made a compelling case for that.

I agree with everything you've said here. And I applaud you for having done so.

Thank you!

[GoneFishin]

27. K & R

[bbgrunt]

28. k and r!

[Lorien]

31. Hilary has survived all the scandals for the same reason that the Banksters that caused the

recession remain free and unaccountable; she serves the elite.