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Skwmom

(12,685 posts)
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 09:47 AM Feb 2016

STOP LYING: The bank bailout cost TRILLIONS.



Most people think that the big bank bailout was the $700 billion that the treasury department used to save the banks during the financial crash in September of 2008. But this is a long way from the truth because the bailout is still ongoing. The Special Inspector General for TARP summary of the bailout says that the total commitment of government is $16.8 trillion dollars with the $4.6 trillion already paid out. Yes, it was trillions not billions and the banks are now larger and still too big to fail. But it isn’t just the government bailout money that tells the story of the bailout. This is a story about lies, cheating, and a multi-faceted corruption which was often criminal.

After the original $700 billion bailout, the ongoing bailout was kept very secret because Chairman Ben Bernanke, argued that revealing borrower details would create a stigma — investors and counterparties would shun firms that used the central bank as lender of last resort. In fact, $7.7 trillion of the secret emergency lending was only disclosed to the public after Congress forced a one-time audit of the Federal Reserve in November of 2011. After the audit the public found out the bailout was in trillions not billions; and that there were no requirements attached to the bailout money – the banks could use it for any purpose.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikecollins/2015/07/14/the-big-bank-bailout/#3064ca013723

In another thread they are trying to say the government made money on the bailout.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511107164
69 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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STOP LYING: The bank bailout cost TRILLIONS. (Original Post) Skwmom Feb 2016 OP
Crazy. tazkcmo Feb 2016 #1
It is, its the new business model- How they do it! and my predictions for the next 2 trillion dollar Baobab Feb 2016 #38
They are lying intentionally. azmom Feb 2016 #2
Well, if blogger Mike Collins thinks so... SidDithers Feb 2016 #3
What's wrong with what Michael Collins wrote? Octafish Feb 2016 #6
Does he have the financial background to give an informed opinion of the bank bailout?... SidDithers Feb 2016 #8
What is your background, SidDithers of DU? Octafish Feb 2016 #10
Oh so now Hillary supporters are siding with the Banking swindlers INdemo Feb 2016 #14
Guess what? George II Feb 2016 #11
Wow... SidDithers Feb 2016 #19
That You for Pointing That Out On the Road Feb 2016 #31
And paid back with interest. ...? nt Jitter65 Feb 2016 #4
Not neccessarily ....much of the tarp loans were paid back with INdemo Feb 2016 #21
Some additional information from Senator Bernie Sanders: think Feb 2016 #5
Thank you for posting this, it's informative! JudyM Feb 2016 #7
YW. Thank you for the reply. Much appreciated. think Feb 2016 #9
I will add my thanks also rurallib Feb 2016 #13
And why don't we hear about ... aggiesal Feb 2016 #12
Swiss bank UBS received $287 Billion. Octafish Feb 2016 #16
Our sole job is to pick up the Banksters' tab FreakinDJ Feb 2016 #27
Then they used some of that money to buy the distressed properties that they caused to be distressed Dustlawyer Feb 2016 #30
Privatize the Profits. Socialize the Debt! n/t aggiesal Feb 2016 #37
^ This. AzDar Feb 2016 #58
Thank you. Big kick WhaTHellsgoingonhere Feb 2016 #15
Yup trillions UglyGreed Feb 2016 #17
a rising tide drowns those stuck on the bottom. n/t. airplaneman Feb 2016 #63
Bank of America dumped 72 TRILLION in toxic derivatives on the Feds in October of 2011 or so secondwind Feb 2016 #18
Clinton voted Yea on the Financial Bailout Bill of 2008 and Sanders voted Nay. EndElectoral Feb 2016 #20
It's a paradoxical toxic question Hydra Feb 2016 #65
Is someone failing to distinguish between trillions in LOANS and billions in outright gifts ? nt eppur_se_muova Feb 2016 #22
Hillary was showing her Caring Abuelita side she voted to bail the banks out. Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2016 #23
We wouldn't have an economy, much less Loki Feb 2016 #24
that explains why Hillary took millions from the criminals who engineered the crash virtualobserver Feb 2016 #29
Ah jeez, Loki Feb 2016 #33
I'm very familiar with the details.....which is why I find her recent behavior so objectionable. virtualobserver Feb 2016 #42
To me, the question isn't whether a bailout was necessary BernieforPres2016 Feb 2016 #39
"You have no idea what a real depression looks and feels like" On the Road Feb 2016 #41
Once again BernieforPres2016 Feb 2016 #44
I have always thought that even with the terms that were shitty Loki Feb 2016 #49
TARP as it was implemented was not the only option to deal with that. jeff47 Feb 2016 #52
TARP as it was implemented wasn't even the TARP legislation that passed Congress BernieforPres2016 Feb 2016 #57
I have an MBA in finance; TARP was an enormous subsidy to the banksters BernieforPres2016 Feb 2016 #25
In other words BernieforPres2016 Feb 2016 #32
And what do you think would have happened had TARP not passed? Loki Feb 2016 #35
I responded to you on that higher up BernieforPres2016 Feb 2016 #40
And which terms would you have proposed that they would have accepted? Loki Feb 2016 #48
What terms would they accept? BernieforPres2016 Feb 2016 #53
We don't have Teddy Roosevelt's in government anymore. Loki Feb 2016 #59
And you may not recall BernieforPres2016 Feb 2016 #55
Excellent post. kristopher Feb 2016 #34
I Have an MBA in Finance Too On the Road Feb 2016 #45
You may have an MBA in Finance BernieforPres2016 Feb 2016 #47
Obtuse? Loki Feb 2016 #50
When your other option is bankruptcy, you don't get to dictate terms. jeff47 Feb 2016 #54
Exactly right BernieforPres2016 Feb 2016 #56
They're just throwing dust and smoke into the discussion Hydra Feb 2016 #66
I agree with you 100%. Dark n Stormy Knight Feb 2016 #61
You are Right -- On the Road Feb 2016 #69
That's just the beginning. Loki Feb 2016 #51
Since when do we privatize profits and socialize loss? liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #67
"It Takes a Pillage" Agony Feb 2016 #68
Thank you for the REALITY FreakinDJ Feb 2016 #26
M3 reporting dropped by Bushies. We aren't supposed to know this!!!11!1!1 B CONservative!!1!!11 Festivito Feb 2016 #28
$7.2 trillion amborin Feb 2016 #36
Good chart/diagram BernieforPres2016 Feb 2016 #43
Interest rate comparison BernieforPres2016 Feb 2016 #46
Nomi Prins, who really knows her stuff, hifiguy Feb 2016 #60
Yes. The mega-banks have great PR teams. mhatrw Feb 2016 #62
What, no video? Mnpaul Feb 2016 #64

tazkcmo

(7,300 posts)
1. Crazy.
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 09:54 AM
Feb 2016

In that thread it's not just a bailout, it's a profit generating business model! Welcome to the new economy!

Baobab

(4,667 posts)
38. It is, its the new business model- How they do it! and my predictions for the next 2 trillion dollar
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 12:56 PM
Feb 2016

Bailouts.

The 2008 crisis was caused by the 1999 repeal of the Depression-era Glass-Steagall Act that was required by the 1995 WTO General Agreement on Trade in Services .

Its not well known at all but the inflexibility caused by that same 1995 WTO GATS agreement is in no small part behind the health care mess today.


Trillion Dollar Bailout #2 - estimated date- 2020-2021

That is my nomination for the next trillion dollar bailout, that one will be a huge payout to the health insurance industry, for "expected lost profits" from forever, when the country, broken by health insurance costs, which add no value, finally has a change of heart on health care. However, that will be after TiSA has already resulted in the globalization of health care (and the loss of literally millions of US healthcare jobs, due to the success of the failure of the predicted manufactured crisis at the expected four or five year mark (see "State Health Reform Flatlines" by Steffie Woolhandler, Benjamin Day,
and David U. Himmelstein, International Journal of Health Services, Volume 38, Number 3, Pages 585–592, 2008
doi: 10.2190/HS.38.3.k "a national emergency" to force the (very) long planned "services liberalisation" on us- forcing wages way down. Those jobs will be awarded to the lowest qualified bidders- via a system like the WTO GPA (Government procurement Agreement) e-tendering system - or one set up by the proposed WTO Trade Facilitation Agreement for Services - Lowest qualified bidders must win so those (often formerly public) jobs in the services sectors that fail to be exempted from progressive liberalisation - The imperative to privatize will heavily impact health care ad education workers especially. GATS and TiSA's scope is identical and the main exception pointed to by its supporters is the one supposedly afforded to what they call "public services". However, one should realize when hey say that that their definition is so very narrow that it wont apply to any of the public services we think of when we say that here in the US or in virtually any other modern country. here is the text of GATS Article I:3 (b) and (c)

"For the purposes of this Agreement…

(b) 'services' includes any service in any sector except services supplied in the exercise of governmental authority;

(c) 'a service supplied in the exercise of governmental authority' means any service which is supplied neither on a commercial basis, nor in competition with one or more service suppliers."

It turns out that the definition of exempt services is so narrow because if even a single service provider exists in a country that takes money for that service, such as one chain of charter schools, or one insurance provider for money, the entire service sector is subject to the GATS and TiSA disciplines on domestic regulation, market access rules, etc.

So, millions of jobs, as soon as the next contract renewal comes up, must be put up for competitive bidding and will likely go to foreign staffing contractors - their workers holding L1 visas, all domestic regulations must be disciplined to facilitate that) so even tough the many trillions of dollars will be to foreign insurance firms and staffing consultancy firms as compensation for expected lost profits - We stll likely will not have the freedom to set up single payer, and so will still end up keeping health care unaffordable, all because of that one signature in 1995 or 2016.

Also the damage to the job market and wages will likely be irreversible. We may still have tol pay the insurance companies to leave, however, based on their past profits cntinuing long into the future, a practical if not a legal impossibility, But before that occurrs, I predict that they will extract a sum of at least a quarter million dollars from each of us. (Very conservative estimate) . Thats is a half to a third of their take over a persons lifetime. Any less would "threaten the crdibility of the system" - the system we created! So, the bailouts have barely even begun!

That was Huge Future Bailout #2

Huge Future Bailout #3 will mostly be caused by a little known planned huge energy deal buried in TTIP, which also preemptss state and local laws prohibiting fracking- also be caused by the "investor state dispute settlement" and "indirect expropriation" clauses i trade deals, this one will be caused by the desre to reverse the huge damage which will be caused by the deregulation and export of natural gas on prices and jobs and a unintended effect of the cost increase on housing availability, causing a great many families to become homless in cities with no hope of finding replacement housing anywhere nearby that they can even remotely afford, an unintended effect of the irresponsible energy chapter in TTIP and the deregulation of (and subsequent export of) our natural gas, "until its gone". (according to the Petersen Insitute the WTO GATS may also require the dergulation, so chalk another HUGE disaster up to the Clinton era GATS)

(The price it fetches is an average of four or five times higher in Asia than it is here. )

This will be the event that spells the end of the Democratic Party which will be blamed for both the previous and this bailout. Due to our support of these horrible trade deals in 1995-1998 and today.

The cost of this will be the loss of a great deal of cheap energy dependent jobs and literally almost all of our postwar era built multifamily housing, basically almost all of our middle class and working class housing in cities and communities of all kinds all across the country, much of it rent stabilized. Rent stabilization laws exist in a precarious legal argument space - justified by the questionable justice of applying an atificially low CPI to housing rents. However, landlords have a 'legal" escape valve in sudden increases in costs and they could be expected to avail themselves of it in lage numbers should the cost to heat and cool their older buildings suddenly jump up by 60% or more. (which it will) We likely would lose rent control nationally. This will drive a huge loss of affordable housing and people who lose their place to live in a city will also have to walk away from jobs and pensions and support networks built up over their entire lives. Entire communities likely will move together to some affordable rural area. But many city dwellers dont even drive, and the countryside does not have public transport. However rural communites are not prepared for or approriate for urban dwellers, uprooted from their entire lives. Its unclear what will happen but it doesnt look good. I think that politicians will be reluctant to explain the finer points of the irreversibility of TTIP and WTO investment protection provisions, etc, so there will be a widespread push to withdraw from the hated TTIP provisions to "save affordable housing" but at that point the batle will already be lost. Still, the energy companies will be bailed out for their lost investment, at a cost of again, trillions of dollars (this is despite the fact that by all accounts, the fracking part of the resources is rapidly running out- we're being lied to about that to make us more amenable to losing most peoples only source of affordable heat and an important energy backup which would remain available even after a huge solar storm destroyed the electric power grid, something that there is a one in eight chance of happening every decade (that would also cause multiple nuclear meltdowns all around the world)

Also, we are likely to see a repeat of 2008 in some way with banks due to TiSA's attempting to re-deregulate financial markets - against the advice of almost everybody with credibility, they are STILL determined to do it. What are they hiding?

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
3. Well, if blogger Mike Collins thinks so...
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 10:00 AM
Feb 2016

then that settles it.

Mike Collins
I write about manufacturing and government policies
Prior to becoming a writer I was Vice President and General Manager of two divisions of Columbia Machine in Vancouver Washington. I have more than 35 years of experience in Manufacturing. I began my career in material handling but have spent most of my years manufacturing automated machinery and robot systems.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikecollins/#3eae41b66f35

Note: The article in the OP is not a Forbes article, but a blog entry hosted on the Forbes blog server. Literally anybody can create a blog at Forbes.

Sid

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
8. Does he have the financial background to give an informed opinion of the bank bailout?...
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 10:42 AM
Feb 2016

Or is he just some guy talking out of his ass?

See, I like to evaluate whether the source that's being used actually knows what the hell they're talking about.

For all we know, he might be a racist piece of shit, like Paul Craig Roberts.

Sid

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
10. What is your background, SidDithers of DU?
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 11:25 AM
Feb 2016

Apart from the smears, I don't recall learning anything from what you post.

INdemo

(6,994 posts)
14. Oh so now Hillary supporters are siding with the Banking swindlers
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 11:38 AM
Feb 2016

because Hillary is a Goldman girl..has said the banking collapse is the fault of the people that took out loans..
She she said that...but now you are on the banks swindlers team..how convenient

George II

(67,782 posts)
11. Guess what?
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 11:30 AM
Feb 2016

On Fri Feb 26, 2016, 07:56 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Well, if blogger Mike Collins thinks so...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1343645

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This is a smear, an ad-hom attack used as a distraction. This poster never posts anything but attacks on other DUers.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Feb 26, 2016, 08:28 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This is ridiculous. Leave it alone.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Poster is naught but snarky one-liners, usually insulting other DU'ers.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't see any smear or attack in this post. This is an abuse of the jury system. It's not meant to be used to silence posters that we don't like.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Not a smear, just an opinion.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The poster is commenting on a blogger, not any DUer. "Never posts anything but attacks"? 38,000 attacks? I don't think so, nor do I see any reason to hide this, much less even alert it.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

On the Road

(20,783 posts)
31. That You for Pointing That Out
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 12:27 PM
Feb 2016

I was wondering how Forbes would have published this:

The operating principles of the big banks is a cesspool of greed, ethics and criminal intent and they give a very bad name to free market capitalism.

Even if an editor agreed with the sentiment, this should have been blue-penciled: "The operating principles...is a cesspool...and they give...."

INdemo

(6,994 posts)
21. Not neccessarily ....much of the tarp loans were paid back with
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 11:51 AM
Feb 2016

funds from other Government loans at very low interest rates.Much lower than Student loan interest.Elizabeth Warren talked about this and wanted Student Loan interest reduced to the rate the of Government loan rates to banks.....




But 48 percent of the banks that have repaid the CPP used money they'd gotten from other federal programs, according to the GAO report. Those programs include the Community Development Capital Initiative -- another TARP program -- and the Small Business Lending Fund, a program designed to encourage lending to small businesses. Both of those programs have more favorable borrowing terms for the banks than the original CPP.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/09/bank-tarp_n_1335006.html

 

think

(11,641 posts)
5. Some additional information from Senator Bernie Sanders:
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 10:34 AM
Feb 2016

Last edited Fri Feb 26, 2016, 11:47 AM - Edit history (1)


The Fed Audit

Thursday, July 21, 2011

The first top-to-bottom audit of the Federal Reserve uncovered eye-popping new details about how the U.S. provided a whopping $16 trillion in secret loans to bail out American and foreign banks and businesses during the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. An amendment by Sen. Bernie Sanders to the Wall Street reform law passed one year ago this week directed the Government Accountability Office to conduct the study. "As a result of this audit, we now know that the Federal Reserve provided more than $16 trillion in total financial assistance to some of the largest financial institutions and corporations in the United States and throughout the world," said Sanders. "This is a clear case of socialism for the rich and rugged, you're-on-your-own individualism for everyone else."

Among the investigation's key findings is that the Fed unilaterally provided trillions of dollars in financial assistance to foreign banks and corporations from South Korea to Scotland, according to the GAO report. "No agency of the United States government should be allowed to bailout a foreign bank or corporation without the direct approval of Congress and the president," Sanders said.

The non-partisan, investigative arm of Congress also determined that the Fed lacks a comprehensive system to deal with conflicts of interest, despite the serious potential for abuse. In fact, according to the report, the Fed provided conflict of interest waivers to employees and private contractors so they could keep investments in the same financial institutions and corporations that were given emergency loans.

For example, the CEO of JP Morgan Chase served on the New York Fed's board of directors at the same time that his bank received more than $390 billion in financial assistance from the Fed. Moreover, JP Morgan Chase served as one of the clearing banks for the Fed's emergency lending programs.

In another disturbing finding, the GAO said that on Sept. 19, 2008, William Dudley, who is now the New York Fed president, was granted a waiver to let him keep investments in AIG and General Electric at the same time AIG and GE were given bailout funds. One reason the Fed did not make Dudley sell his holdings, according to the audit, was that it might have created the appearance of a conflict of interest.

To Sanders, the conclusion is simple. "No one who works for a firm receiving direct financial assistance from the Fed should be allowed to sit on the Fed's board of directors or be employed by the Fed," he said.

The investigation also revealed that the Fed outsourced most of its emergency lending programs to private contractors, many of which also were recipients of extremely low-interest and then-secret loans.

The Fed outsourced virtually all of the operations of their emergency lending programs to private contractors like JP Morgan Chase, Morgan Stanley, and Wells Fargo. The same firms also received trillions of dollars in Fed loans at near-zero interest rates. Altogether some two-thirds of the contracts that the Fed awarded to manage its emergency lending programs were no-bid contracts. Morgan Stanley was given the largest no-bid contract worth $108.4 million to help manage the Fed bailout of AIG.

A more detailed GAO investigation into potential conflicts of interest at the Fed is due on Oct. 18, but Sanders said one thing already is abundantly clear. "The Federal Reserve must be reformed to serve the needs of working families, not just CEOs on Wall Street."

To read the GAO report, click here.

Fed Audit



http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/the-fed-audit

aggiesal

(8,907 posts)
12. And why don't we hear about ...
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 11:33 AM
Feb 2016

foreign governments also bailing out the banks?

Why are only the American taxpayers funding all this money?

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
16. Swiss bank UBS received $287 Billion.
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 11:40 AM
Feb 2016

They even could lend the money BACK to the US Treasury -- at interest.



According to the GAO audit, $16.1 trillion in secret loans were made by the Federal Reserve between December 1, 2007 and July 21, 2010. The following list of firms and the amount of money that they received was taken directly from page 131 of the GAO audit report….

Citigroup – $2.513 trillion
Morgan Stanley – $2.041 trillion
Merrill Lynch – $1.949 trillion
Bank of America – $1.344 trillion
Barclays PLC – $868 billion
Bear Sterns – $853 billion
Goldman Sachs – $814 billion
Royal Bank of Scotland – $541 billion
JP Morgan Chase – $391 billion
Deutsche Bank – $354 billion
UBS – $287 billion
Credit Suisse – $262 billion
Lehman Brothers – $183 billion
Bank of Scotland – $181 billion
BNP Paribas – $175 billion
Wells Fargo – $159 billion
Dexia – $159 billion
Wachovia – $142 billion
Dresdner Bank – $135 billion
Societe Generale – $124 billion
“All Other Borrowers” – $2.639 trillion

This report was made available to all the members of Congress, but most of them have been totally silent about it. One of the only members of Congress that has said something has been U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders.

-- http://www.globalresearch.ca/have-you-heard-about-the-16-trillion-dollar-bailout-the-federal-reserve-handed-to-the-too-big-to-fail-banks/28006



It's like a casino, only We the People can't get in on the action. Our sole job is to pick up the Banksters' tab.

Dustlawyer

(10,494 posts)
30. Then they used some of that money to buy the distressed properties that they caused to be distressed
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 12:19 PM
Feb 2016

for bargain basement prices. They bought up Florida resorts, hotels and marinas after the BP oil spill in 2010, and are now the largest landlords in the country! Want more of this, vote for Hillary!

EndElectoral

(4,213 posts)
20. Clinton voted Yea on the Financial Bailout Bill of 2008 and Sanders voted Nay.
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 11:50 AM
Feb 2016

Quite surprised this hasn't been a big debate question. A significant moment in history and polar opposites.

Hydra

(14,459 posts)
65. It's a paradoxical toxic question
Sat Feb 27, 2016, 12:37 AM
Feb 2016

Which is why it hasn't been brought up. The official narrative is that the bailouts saved everyone, so Hillary's campaign should be shouting the yea vote from the rooftops...except that it was and still is a highly unpopular position to have taken.

Loki

(3,825 posts)
24. We wouldn't have an economy, much less
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 12:06 PM
Feb 2016

the ability to post on this blog without that bailout, whatever you think of it. You have no idea what a real depression looks and feels like. Maybe you should talk to someone who has gone through it. It might change your perspective. It wasn't perfect, it will never be perfect, but it was all we had, unless you wanted to watch the US, and the world economy slide into the abyss. We wouldn't have to even worry about too big to fail anymore.

I wasn't for it originally, but after reading and educating and talking to people in the industry, "29 would have been a cake walk.

 

virtualobserver

(8,760 posts)
29. that explains why Hillary took millions from the criminals who engineered the crash
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 12:19 PM
Feb 2016

and why she is being funded by them today.

Loki

(3,825 posts)
33. Ah jeez,
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 12:46 PM
Feb 2016

it does not good to try to explain what would have happened. You obviously aren't interested in anything buy what your ideological political persuasion will allow you to think. Try reading, it might help.

BernieforPres2016

(3,017 posts)
39. To me, the question isn't whether a bailout was necessary
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 12:57 PM
Feb 2016

but under what terms? The terms were a sweetheart deal for the banksters, something that would have never happened in an arms length transaction.

But of course, we have to keep in mind the guy who was at the center of structuring the terms of TARP for the taxpayers and selling it to the Congress was Hank Paulson, who had gone through the revolving door in 2006 from CEO of Goldman Sachs to U.S. Treasury Secretary. It was Wall Street "negotiating" with Wall Street, followed by the old Mad Magazine cover of a gun pointed at a dog's head and the title "Buy this magazine or we'll shoot the dog".

On the Road

(20,783 posts)
41. "You have no idea what a real depression looks and feels like"
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 01:08 PM
Feb 2016

This is what leads me to discount most of the complaints about the bailout. It really seems that people think there would just be a few vacant banks in town and things would go on normally otherwise.

Bank of America has millions of small business accounts not covered by FDIC insurance. A bank failure would make it impossible for most of those business owners to pay their employees, suppliers, taxes, or personal expenses. The ripple effects of that on top of the rest of the crash would very likely made the economy unsalvageable.

Any analysis of whether TARP was a gain or a loss has to include the effects of lost tax revenue from allowing the banks to fail. Cumulatively, that overhwhelms any losses taken on the loans.

BernieforPres2016

(3,017 posts)
44. Once again
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 01:18 PM
Feb 2016

It wasn't the bailout that I object to, it was the TERMS of the bailout, which were an enormous subsidy to banksters and industry from taxpayers that took on all the risk. The returns to taxpayers for making these investments should have been enormous. The senior executives that put the global economy at risk through incompetence and criminal behavior should have been removed from their jobs and many of them should have been prosecuted.

Loki

(3,825 posts)
49. I have always thought that even with the terms that were shitty
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 02:28 PM
Feb 2016

they realized at the brink, just what a catastrophe they had on their hands, and took whatever they could get to keep this economy and our country afloat. Otherwise, disaster doesn't quite cover what the consequences would have been.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
52. TARP as it was implemented was not the only option to deal with that.
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 02:42 PM
Feb 2016

The legislation that passed TARP could have been legislation that seized the bank and paid those accounts out of the treasury.

Well, that would never have been proposed by W nor would it have passed, but it's an extreme example of "we didn't have to save those businesses in exactly that way".

BernieforPres2016

(3,017 posts)
57. TARP as it was implemented wasn't even the TARP legislation that passed Congress
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 03:01 PM
Feb 2016

The program started out as a program to buy the most toxic securities off bank balance sheets. But how to price them and buy them quickly proved impractical, so Paulson and his subordinates who were implementing TARP decided to head off in another direction.

BernieforPres2016

(3,017 posts)
25. I have an MBA in finance; TARP was an enormous subsidy to the banksters
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 12:10 PM
Feb 2016

The government made enormously high risk investments and charged the banksters virtually nothing for them at a time when the banksters could have never borrowed those quantities of money from anybody else, and when they would have had to pay much higher interest rates to any normal lender. As an example, shortly before the bailout, Goldman Sachs raised $5 billion in a deal with Warren Buffett. Buffett received convertible preferred stock in Goldman that paid 10% interest AND was convertible into shares of Goldman common stock at a strike price of $115/share for the next 5 years. That gave him significant upside on top of the 10% he was collecting as interest while waiting on the common stock to recover. So the expected rate Goldman paid on the loan from Buffett was not 10%, it was more like 15-20% based on the very valuable option on Goldman's common stock.

And the only reason that Buffett was even willing to invest in Goldman at those terms was that he was well connected to both government and Wall Street and was all but certain that the government was about to make enormous capital infusions into banks and basically put the full faith and credit of the U.S. government behind them:

<But the legendary investor said his faith in the financial markets' recovery is contingent on Congress passing the $700 billion bailout, which would buy troubled mortgage assets from banks.

"If I didn't think the government was going to act, I would not be doing anything this week," Buffett told CNBC Wednesday morning. "It would be a mistake to be buying anything now if the government was going to walk away from the Paulson proposal. Last week will look like Nirvana if they don't do something.">

http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/23/news/companies/goldman_berkshire/

5 years later, Buffett later converted the Goldman preferred investment into Goldman common stock at prices roughly 30% above the $115 strike price. So he made in excess of 15% a year for 5 years, basically doubling his $5 billion investment to $10 billion, on a deal that was backstopped by virtually unlimited loans at a near zero interest rate from the U.S. taxpayers.

If your next neighbor who was a meth head and lost his job approached you for a loan so he could keep from going into default on his mortgage, would you loan him money at a 1-2% rate, or would you loan on Buffett like terms, say 10% plus his house (assuming the house was worth more than the mortgage balance) as collateral?

What kinds of rates and terms do the banksters get when they lend money to high risk borrowers? What is the typical rate on unsecured credit card loans? What do the payday lending operations charge?

For the taxpayers to make trillions of loans to high risk borrowers during an enormous crisis, to assume the risk of enormous losses that under a worst case scenario could have essentially wrecked the full faith and credit of the U.S. government, then to say "Hey, it turns out that we made a 2% return!" is ludicrous. The U.S. taxpayers should have received full ownership of the TARP institutions, they should have been taken over by emergency managers, broken up, and then sold back to investors via common stock offerings with all proceeds of the offering going to the U.S. taxpayers.

BernieforPres2016

(3,017 posts)
32. In other words
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 12:28 PM
Feb 2016

When you make an investment that comes with enormously high risk, you should have the potential for enormously high returns if it works out. But the terms offered to the banksters were designed to give the taxpayers at best a tiny return and at worst catastrophic losses. Such terms would have never been offered in a true arms length transaction with one entity (the government) holding all the cards and the other side in desperation, as Buffett's investments during the financial crisis showed. He also made another $9.5 billion in investments in Bank of America, GE and Dow Chemical during the financial crisis of 2008. He had to sell some of Berkshire Hathaway's common stock positions to raise the $14.5 billion in cash to make all these deals.

He did not provide capital to any of those companies for a 1% to 2% interest rate as the U.S. taxpayers did.

Loki

(3,825 posts)
35. And what do you think would have happened had TARP not passed?
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 12:47 PM
Feb 2016

I'm curious. Since you state that you are an expert in this area. would you please explain your ideas or predictions to me. I'm interested.

BernieforPres2016

(3,017 posts)
40. I responded to you on that higher up
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 01:00 PM
Feb 2016

and also indirectly in the post you're responding to.

I think some sort of bailout had to be made to avoid a complete collapse of the global banking system. But the terms should have been onerous, which would have wiped out bank common shareholders and provided much larger returns to the U.S. taxpayers for taking on the risk. Banksters should have been swept out as part of the deal and then investigated and prosecuted when warranted.

Loki

(3,825 posts)
48. And which terms would you have proposed that they would have accepted?
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 02:24 PM
Feb 2016

They weren't interested unless there were no restrictions, which most got, and these weren't used as Bernacke and Paulson had told them they wanted them to be used. By then it was too late, but I think that if restrictions were demanded, they would have been stupid and revolted, and then you and I wouldn't be having this conversation. Our economy would have been worse than Greece and the world would be in a world wide depression of which we would still be trying to dig our way out of. I don't know if that's what people would have preferred had happened, just to prove a point. We will never know, but I'm glad it didn't. We paid a price and now we have to come to terms with it. Fix Wall Street, or we will go through this again, just at a later date. No one has been prosecuted except the one low man on the totem poll. Not since Enron have we taken the big guys to court. Do you really think the Republican's in congress would ever let that happen. . I have to laugh at that thought. They are very successful at keeping the corporations protected and it's not going to change. Changing one man won't get it done. It needs to start from the bottom up, everywhere. People have to accept that premise or nothing will change.

BernieforPres2016

(3,017 posts)
53. What terms would they accept?
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 02:47 PM
Feb 2016

I don't care what they would have accepted. Anything but a corrupt government would have dictated the terms to them.

Do you think it's reasonable that Warren Buffett got 5 year convertible preferred stock with a 10% yield plus upside from the common stock for a $5 billion investment and the U.S. taxpayer came in right behind him and loaned Goldman many multiples of that at 1% to 2%?

Loki

(3,825 posts)
59. We don't have Teddy Roosevelt's in government anymore.
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 03:20 PM
Feb 2016

No nothing was reasonable, but a complete and total collapse of the system was not in anyone's interest. We got what we got, not perfection, but you seem to think that intelligent compromise would seize the day. It didn't and it won't unless we change the system. If we can, if it is still possible, then these corrupt deals will no longer happen. It's like you think that just a snap of the finger's would have made everything wonderful. At that time, this economy was going balls up, and fast. Nobody was going to make a competent decision and have it come out benefiting everyone. It just wasn't going to happen. We whistled past the graveyard and here we are, doing the same shit, with the same banks, and no one is going to do or disrupt the system unless we elect people who will get this crap under control. I know that. I'm not an idealist anymore. I live in the real world and I know what we are up against.

BernieforPres2016

(3,017 posts)
55. And you may not recall
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 02:57 PM
Feb 2016

That in the first TARP meeting, Paulson and Bernanke called in the CEOs of 9 major financial institutions and laid out the terms of what was going to happen. Your firm is taking this much money and here are the terms. Your firm is taking this much money and here are the terms. At the conclusion of the meeting, an "offering" was handed to each CEO and they were told to sign them and agree to the terms before they left.

Richard "Dick" Kovacevich, CEO of Wells Fargo (another big Warren Buffett long term investment) squealed like a pig afterwards, saying that Wells didn't want or need the money and shouldn't have been required to take it. But he signed like everybody else.

Do you pretend not to understand that banks are regulated by the U.S. government, who can shut them down or take them over if they think it's necessary? You pretend that the U.S. government has to negotiate with banksters and get them to accept their terms?

On the Road

(20,783 posts)
45. I Have an MBA in Finance Too
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 01:18 PM
Feb 2016

What is your estimate of the cumulative effects of allowing the banks to fail in these areas?

- Businesses unable to pay wages when their bank fails
- Businesses unable to pay suppliers...
- Businesses unable to pay taxes...
- Small businesses unable to pay their own salaries ...
- Failure of commerical landlords from tenants unable to pay
- Reduction of business tax revenue
- Reduction of personal tax revenue from lost wages
- FDIC insurance coverage for personal accountholders (up to $250,000 per acct)
- Increase in unemployement claims
- Increase in food stamps and other forms of government assistance
- Secondary failures of banks and other businesses due to the effects of all the previous

Can't be that much, right?

BernieforPres2016

(3,017 posts)
47. You may have an MBA in Finance
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 01:26 PM
Feb 2016

But you get an F in reading comprehension.

I have said multiple times in this thread that a bailout was necessary, but the TERMS of the bailout should have been much more onerous to the recipients of the bailout and rewarding to the U.S. taxpayers who took on the risk. But with Hank Paulson, former CEO of Goldman Sachs and a bought and paid for Congress "negotiating" on behalf of the taxpayers, that wasn't going to happen.

Is there one Hillary Clinton supporter that isn't obtuse?

Loki

(3,825 posts)
50. Obtuse?
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 02:30 PM
Feb 2016

They weren't going to accept any terms except what they got. They were willing to let it go down. Both sides took what they wanted, otherwise we would be a third world country right now. Too bad you weren't in the room to twist their arms and make them behave.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
54. When your other option is bankruptcy, you don't get to dictate terms.
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 02:48 PM
Feb 2016

At least, we mortals would not.

They were willing to let it go down

Ok. Seize them out of bankruptcy, make the accounts whole, and run a "Bank of the United States" for a while. Eventually divest it into other institutions.

We made new law to create TARP. That new law did not have to look exactly like TARP.

Both sides took what they wanted

There was only one side in these negotiations, thanks to the massive corruption of our government. Again, it did not have to be this way, but we let it be this way.

Hydra

(14,459 posts)
66. They're just throwing dust and smoke into the discussion
Sat Feb 27, 2016, 12:42 AM
Feb 2016

To create a sense that it's not clear-cut. The Bush admin had people here doing the same back in the day.

Dark n Stormy Knight

(9,760 posts)
61. I agree with you 100%.
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 06:32 PM
Feb 2016

Well, take away whatever percent that last sentence makes.

There is something more at play with Hillary supporters than obtuseness. A number of things more, in fact.

Anyway, yes! Good grief, those who caused the problems made out like bandits! Which is no surprise, considering that's what they are.

On the Road

(20,783 posts)
69. You are Right --
Sat Feb 27, 2016, 11:25 AM
Feb 2016

I responded to an indivdual comment without checking history. That should have been directed elsewhere.









Loki

(3,825 posts)
51. That's just the beginning.
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 02:35 PM
Feb 2016

It would have become the collapse of an economy like we have never seen before. Joblessness, lol. I can't even imagine what this fubar would have looked like. It was a shit sandwich, but were still here and my retirement pension is still viable.

liberal_at_heart

(12,081 posts)
67. Since when do we privatize profits and socialize loss?
Sat Feb 27, 2016, 12:46 AM
Feb 2016

And if that is how we are now operating then shouldn't banks now help the very tax payers that bailed them out? Shouldn't they invest in tuition free college? Not only would they be paying back the tax payers but they would actually be investing in future employees.

Agony

(2,605 posts)
68. "It Takes a Pillage"
Sat Feb 27, 2016, 09:02 AM
Feb 2016

by Nomi Prins lays that all out in an illuminating fashion. Her newest book "All the Presidents Bankers" fleshes out the depth and breadth of the corruption.

Festivito

(13,452 posts)
28. M3 reporting dropped by Bushies. We aren't supposed to know this!!!11!1!1 B CONservative!!1!!11
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 12:15 PM
Feb 2016

... and conserve not a thing.
________________________________________________
Arghhh! What idiots those conservative voters are.

BernieforPres2016

(3,017 posts)
43. Good chart/diagram
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 01:15 PM
Feb 2016

There was much more to the bailout than just the banksters that everybody talks about. The U.S. taxpayers effectively backstopped the commercial paper market for all industries.

GE is an interesting company to look at. GE, which had historically been primarily an industrial company, had morphed into a conglomerate with a huge financial services arm during the era when Jack Welch was CEO. It was considered the gold standard of U.S. industry, one of only a half dozen or so non-banks with an AAA credit rating. Under Welch and his successor as CEO Jeff Immelt (who still runs GE today), GE became increasingly reliant on the commercial paper market for financing its business. Commercial paper is very short term financing, typically from 30 to 90 days. Why do that not just for short term cash needs but as a replacement for longer term financing? Because in the years before the crisis, GE could issue 90 day commercial paper at perhaps 2% versus having to pay maybe 5%-6% on 10 to 30 year bonds.

Then when the financial crisis hit, supposedly AAA rated GE faced the very real possibility of running out of cash and going into default because the commercial paper market effectively disappeared. Investors were no longer willing to loan GE money for 90 days at 2%. Had GE and other companies in similar situations started to default, that would have caused enormous losses for money market funds, which were held by ordinary investors and financial institutions.

So as part of TARP, the government also backstopped the commercial paper market. And Warren Buffett made a distressed investment in AAA rated GE.

Of course, how the government sanctioned ratings oligopolists Standard and Poors and Moody's (which Warren Buffett was a large investor in and loved because it was an extraordinarily profitable near monopoly) gave GE an AAA rating, and how they rated securities backed by subprime mortgages that later turned out to be worth pennies on the dollar as AAA is another story.

BernieforPres2016

(3,017 posts)
46. Interest rate comparison
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 01:22 PM
Feb 2016

Rate charged by the U.S. government (i.e. taxpayers) to distressed and in many cases criminal enterprise financial institutions during the TARP bailout: 1% to 2%

Rates charged by the U.S. government (i.e. taxpayers) for subsidized loans to college students in 2014-15: 4.66%

Is something wrong with this picture?

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
60. Nomi Prins, who really knows her stuff,
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 03:32 PM
Feb 2016

pegged it at $14 trillion. I believe her. See he book "It Takes A Pillage."

mhatrw

(10,786 posts)
62. Yes. The mega-banks have great PR teams.
Fri Feb 26, 2016, 07:03 PM
Feb 2016

"Investing in our huge bonuses was the best investment US taxpayers ever made!"

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