I think some people want a continuation of the Clinton years

[delrem]

as if the Obama years did not happen.

Except for the email scandal. Except for Hillary.

In my opinion the difference between Obama's first and second administration is like night and day.

In his second administration Obama orchestrated a rapprochement with Cuba, and began a rapprochement with Iran.

This would not have happened if Hillary Clinton hadn't been fired.

[radical noodle]

1. I think it happened

because he was in his second term and no longer had to worry about re-election.

[delrem]

4. I think it happened because John Kerry + Barack Obama is positive,

whereas Hillary Clinton + anyone is negative.
Because she's a warmonger in the pay of investment bankers. She isn't good news.

Just my opinion.

[radical noodle]

9. And she wasn't fired either

DEC 18, 2014 12:28 PM EST
By Josh Rogin
Although President Barack Obama is taking the credit for Wednesday’s historic deal to reverse decades of U.S. policy toward Cuba, when Hillary Clinton was secretary of state, she was the main architect of the new policy and pushed far harder for a deal than the Obama White House.

From 2009 until her departure in early 2013, Clinton and her top aides took the lead on the sometimes public, often private interactions with the Cuban government. According to current and former White House and State Department officials and several Cuba policy experts who were involved in the discussions, Clinton was also the top advocate inside the government for ending travel and trade restrictions on Cuba and reversing 50 years of U.S. policy to isolate the Communist island nation. Repeatedly, she pressed the White House to move faster and faced opposition from cautious high-ranking White House officials.

More at link...

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-12-18/hillary-clinton-secretly-pushed-cuba-deal-for-years

[delrem]

14. So you're giving Hillary credit for Obama and Kerry's work. Cool.

I like your spunk.

[radical noodle]

17. Actually

It was Josh Rogin at Bloomberg View who wrote that, not me.

As far as you trashing her service as Secretary of State, President Obama said asking her to be his SoS was one of the best decisions in his presidency. But I'm sure you're far better equipped to know than he is.

[delrem]

19. Ah, you're just passing the credit along. But not owning it. Cool.

[radical noodle]

22. I wasn't there

nor were you. I did find a White House document that said they'd been working on changes in Cuba since 2009, long before SoS Clinton resigned.

[bettyellen]

32. Everyone knows the change in policy to Cuba has been worked on for many years.

[delrem]

38. Everyone knows that Obama and Kerry worked it out.

I mean, let's put credit where it's truly due. OK?

[BeyondGeography]

2. That's just goofy

[DrDan]

3. link, please, that she was fired

[delrem]

5. I used the term "fired" just to get your response.

Because everyone knows that she was going to run for POTUS in '16.
So it was a joke.
OK?

[72DejaVu]

6. Welcome to General Discussion Primaries (Fiction)

[delrem]

7. I didn't say that it wasn't my opinion, my friend.

It's my opinion. Whether you call it "fiction" or not.

I say that Hillary Clinton didn't do the country a service in her missions as "friend of" Libya and Syria, for example. She did the Obama admin a disservice compared to what was done after she was gone. Like -> gone.

Night and day.

Not that my opinion could ever change your mind

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. Saying somebody was fired is a statement if fact. It is not a matter of opinion.

This would not have happened if Hillary Clinton hadn't been fired.

Please provide a link or we are well within out rights to believe it is a prevarication.

Thank you in advance.

[delrem]

15. Prove she wasn't fired.

She fired her own ass out of there because she was aiming to run for POTUS 2016.
But I don't care how we call her departure.
I think we can call her departure miraculous.
I think we can call it wonderful.
OK?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. No, it's not "OK"

"Prove she wasn't fired."

That's not how we roll in America, delrem. We don't accuse folks of things, without evidence, and then expect them to defend themselves. That's what they do in regimes that that don't abide by the rule of law, am I right?

[radical noodle]

18. +1000 eom

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. Think of the implications

Think of the implications of a person accusing another person of something without evidence and putting the onus on them to defend themselves.

[radical noodle]

25. We could say anything we wanted about someone

let them prove us wrong.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. Our friend seems to be basking in this elementary lapse of logic, and more importantly fairness.

[radical noodle]

31. It seems to be a pretty common problem in GD-P these days eom

[delrem]

41. we're evil, I tell you. Evil!

eta: I think the night/day difference is exactly the same as war/co-existence, in this context.

I think this is important. I wish you did too.

[delrem]

20. ooooh! That's not how we roll in America, delrem!

I'm shivering in my timbers!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. I wear your patronizing of me like a crown.

I'm shivering in my timbers!

-delrem

ROFL

[delrem]

30. Cut the melodrama DemocraticSinceBirth.

It's cloying.

Quoting your own lines isn't good repartee? I'll agree with that.
But do you want to talk about issues?

I know, you're four-square standing with Hillary Rodham Clinton on every military adventure that Hillary Rodham Clinton can imagine, and then some. You can always find an excuse.

Do I want to debate with that? No. I don't.
I'm just going to let that go.

But all the rest of it? The war profiteering?

Doesn't it make you even the least little bit queasy?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. No melodrama, sir

You made an allegation, ergo:

This would not have happened if Hillary Clinton hadn't been fired.

I asked you to prove it and this was your response:

Prove she wasn't fired.

I merely pointed out the lapse in logic and fundamental unfairness of your demand.

No need to get upset.

[delrem]

35. Heh. OK! She wasn't fired. I lied.

My respects, sir.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. I don't believer you are a liar. That's unduly harsh. I do believe you got carried away.

[delrem]

39. thanks. I did.

eta: and so I lied.

[John Poet]

21. She should have been fired.

Or better yet, never hired.

[delrem]

26. OK, I admit it, I was throwing bait with that line.

But look what happened in the threads. Some people wanting to give Hillary Clinton credit for what John Kerry did.
That's a fact - just read upthread.
But none of them addressing the issue, of war and war profiteering, of the difference between that and trying to pursue peaceful co-existence.

Jeez.

The fools.

[deathrind]

8. Maybe...

I think it is more that people just want to be able to say that they were a part of history by voting for and seeing the first woman president, no matter where she stands on issues.

It really is confounding to me. For the first time in my life of 40+ years we in the Democratic Party actually have a candidate who is campaigning on the issues that have been central to the Dem platform for decades. Healthcare for all, education for all, economic equality, environment, civil liberties, immigration etc, etc. A candidate who wants to change the status quo and gain back some of the losses the middle class has lost to the right in the last 40yrs. One would think the DNC would be doing everything it could to advance those issues but it has done the exact opposite. The contrast between Clinton and Sanders is amazing in position and track record yet. none of this seems to matter, all because of a couple of chromosomes. Republicans routinely vote against their best interests...this will be the first time I have seen the Dem's do it.

[delrem]

12. People in general aren't that shallow.

[MaggieD]

10. I just like her approach and her competence

[delrem]

13. cool.

[Cheese Sandwich]

24. Keystone pipeline was rejected too after Hillary left

She encouraged the President to pursue regime change policies in Libya and Syria as well. That was another huge oopsie.

[delrem]

33. Yes. A president is as good as the people in the inner circle.

What I most dislike about the "private server" business is that it cut Obama from her own circle.

She was not positive.

[onecaliberal]

29. We would definitely not be making peace agreements like Kerry is.

Not when there are weapons to sell and countries to invade.

[snowy owl]

36. I think Obama got tired of being treated like a back-door guest at the WH

He's showing some gumption. Had he but shown it earlier.

[delrem]

40. I don't like your post.

[snowy owl]

42. That's okay. I'm not looking for like.

I appreciate your feedback.

[PowerToThePeople]

43. I agree that Obama has greatly improved recently.

He has not dropped all his right wing ways yet though.

TPP