2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumStop Bernie-Splaining to Black Voters
Well saidIf only black people knew more, understood better, where the candidates stood now and over their lifetimes they would make a better choice, the right choice. The level of condescension in these comments is staggering.
Sanders is a solid candidate and his integrity and earnestness are admirable, but that can get lost in the noise of advocacy.
Tucked among all this Bernie-splaining by some supporters, it appears to me, is a not-so-subtle, not-so-innocuous savior syndrome and paternalistic patronage that I find so grossly offensive that it boggles the mind that such language should emanate from the mouths or keyboards of supposed progressives.
Boomer
(4,159 posts)It's embarrassing, mortifying to see this happen. I'm a fervent Bernie supporter, I reached that conclusion on my own. I assume everyone else is fully capable of reaching their own conclusions -- whatever they may be -- based on their own experience and exploration.
But you know, the same goes for Hillary-splaining too. Right?
casperthegm
(643 posts)is actually just Sanders supporters trying to spread the word about his work in civil rights. If it comes across as something else I really don't think that's the intention. Other than re-wording the message into a format that is more agreeable with you, what other choice is there to spreading the word? Just stop trying?
Boomer
(4,159 posts)If I'm detailing all the many and varied causes that Sanders supports and the policies he proposes, then civil rights is definitely one of them. But to button-hole a black person to tell them specifically about Bernie's civil rights activities is not helpful. If asked, by all means offer, but don't make the assumption that if you can just tell a black person about Bernie's involvement it will make them see the light. It's patronizing and reduces them to a single-issue voter.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)To paraphrase the geico commercials "It's what you do."
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)casperthegm
(643 posts)and I don't disagree about the need to cite his entire record.
What I guess I wasn't aware of is the perception (or maybe reality in some cases) that the Sanders supporters are focusing solely or largely on just his civil rights record, rather than his entire record when addressing minorities. It wouldn't occur to me to only mention civil rights when speaking with a friend of my mine who is black. Is this really a big thing that's happening on a large scale? I admit I could be biased but I have trouble believing it.
hack89
(39,171 posts)black voters are just as informed as every other voter. Have you considered that they heard you the first time and were simply not convinced that Bernie is the answer? This attitude that "if they only knew Bernie" is the problem - they know Bernie.
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)...except for the fact that I have shared the link to Sanders racial justice policy page and they hadn't even seen it. It's been up for months. Hillary doesn't even have one. So there is certainly still a "They don't know him" problem out there to an extent.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Last edited Thu Feb 11, 2016, 04:59 PM - Edit history (1)
I don't think POC think Bernie is a bad person. They just question how an unknown Senator from a very small very white state is the answer to their problems. A "racial justice policy" on a web site means nothing to them - they are looking for actions and not finding them. Bernie's problem is that he has never had to work for black votes. He doesn't understand them nor their culture - he simply doesn't have a relationship with black voters that engenders trust.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)How has Hillary had to work for black votes? What has she done specifically that has benefited POC and only POC?
hack89
(39,171 posts)I cannot speak for them.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)All the people of color I know support Senator Sanders.
hack89
(39,171 posts)there has been plenty of polling on the issue.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)I don't know any POC who support Hillary. Nothing more, nothing less.
hack89
(39,171 posts)notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)It's frustrating, as I admit I didn't know a thing about Sanders when he first announced his run, but I took it upon myself to do a lot of research. I wish that happened on a larger scale, people taking it upon themselves to learn, but if others won't do it for themselves then I'm happy to help spread the word (about all of his views).
mythology
(9,527 posts)It's one thing to say Sanders has done X, Y, Z which represents his commitment to black voters. It's another to say black people not voting for Sanders are voting against their self interest.
Seriously thing with Albright saying that there's a special place in hell for women who don't help women comes across really poorly to women supporting Sanders.
KentuckyWoman
(6,666 posts)"Winning the black vote" is racist to start with. As if all black people feel the same about issues, have the same needs from government and would all vote the same way.
So and so candidate has built relationships with "them".
So and so candidate just needs to talk more about "them."
Can so and so candidate win the vote from "them"?
When did the DU become a hotbed of racist "us" vs "them" and why aren't every one of those posts being alerted as bigotry?
Leaves me scratching my head, that's for sure.
Mike__M
(1,052 posts)Way too much use of that third person pronoun. It's like speaking for a spouse as "he" or "she" even when he or she is standing right there. And not just explicit use of "they", "them" and "their", but the whole rampant objectification thing is repulsive. I don't like either side of it.
thereismore
(13,326 posts)Last edited Thu Feb 11, 2016, 03:15 PM - Edit history (1)
let me ask you this: do you think we should not talk about Bernie to black people, period? I don't always know where the line is between exercising our right to think and speak and offending black voters by doing so. Can you define that line a little better for us?
For instance, can you give an example of a proper sentence that communicates "This dude Bernie is great" to you without offending you? I am serious. I mean no offense. Thank you.
Boomer
(4,159 posts)As a white person, your entire post made me cringe. So here are some suggestions:
Right thing to say to anyone, black or white: "Bernie is great! Here are all the great things I like about him (followed by a varied list of his positions on many different issues)."
There is no way you can go wrong with that, and no one's "sensitivities" will be offended. By the way, I'm glad you noted you didn't mean offense, cause that really was an insulting suggestion anyway. Just telling you, as one white person to another, you need to really ponder this some more.
If someone ASKS specifically about Bernie's record on civil rights or women's rights, then by all means fill them in with what you know. Just don't walk up to a black person and say "Did you know Bernie marched with MLK?" Because the underlying assumptions of this are:
1) You as a black person must obviously not have known this fact or you'd be a Sander supporter already
2) This is the only issue you care about
thereismore
(13,326 posts)What is insulting about noting that people have sensitivities? Really, let's not pretend that there is no history of injustice to black people at the hands of white people. They have sensitivities related to that.
I was hoping to get a response from the original poster, not some white guy who knows it all.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Other than that I think you pose an excellent question and one that deserves a serious response. I have seen excellent answers to it here in the past.
Both sides currently have supporters using POC like a football. It is disgusting to say the least. That being said, many are actually having an excellent conversation. We need to ignore those using the issue in an extremely offensive manner and not be distracted by them.
thereismore
(13,326 posts)Except one from a holier-than-thou white guy.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)I think your question has great merit. Not that you care what I think but as a Clinton supporter I want to back your question. Very important.
If I remember and find time later I'm going to link to some posts in the last months that answer your question directly. Truly great responses to this exact question.
Many of those responses don't get much attention because they address the issue and don't attack anyone. Seems to be the current state of du.
Thanks for the edit. It didn't change the question you pose at all. I think people would latch on to that one aspect if it weren't changed.
thereismore
(13,326 posts)mikehiggins
(5,614 posts)White people, like me for instance, should STFU when it comes to telling Blacks and Latinos and other "minorities" (soon to be majorities in the nation, if not already) how to think. Why does anyone think these populations are somehow blind or stupid?
When the votes are counted in South Carolina a whole lot of preconceptions are going to be "reexamined", especially when it comes to young minority men and women.
As to Bernie supporters, like me, the best tactic (I can give advice to white folk cause I are one) is just to reply to the stupid attacks (Sanders isn't sufficiently Jewish, etc.) and avoid trying to tell people how to think.
Look. How much can I understand of what black parents think when, if my kid is picked up by the cops, I know I can go to court the next day and get him out.
Court, not a morgue. As a white man I live in a whole different world.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)I posted something below that explains my opinion more.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)CentralMass
(15,265 posts)While I'm not one who in trying to sell anything are you closed minded on Bernie and only interested in touting how poc are not supporting him ?
If so, you have a nice monologue going there.
Do you feel that Hillary has earned your support and does she meet the litmus test ? Has she done things for poc that have earned her your support ?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)mythology
(9,527 posts)Go look up the post saying black people have Stockholm Syndrome. Go look at the posts saying blacks are supporting Clinton against their own self interest.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)I can understand how some might wish to dance around it.
stonecutter357
(12,682 posts)jillan
(39,451 posts)That's what you sound like to me.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Pointing that out to anyone -- AA, white, Latino, Asian American...whomever -- is just tryibng to familiarize them with him. That's always been the nature of politics.
I have said similar things to white friends in discussion s of Bernie. "But you don;t know what he's done." Is that "whitesplaining?
The over sensitivity is getting out of hand.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)with that. It's their vote. They can do whatever they want with it.
Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)..."poc disportionately support Hillary." REAL WORLD results in N H were POC 52% Clinton 48% Sanders in the only poll that actually means something, unlike the manipulatied crap sited by Camp Weathervane and it's tools.
farleftlib
(2,125 posts)and more than a handful of POC on this site that demand a list of Bernie's civil rights bona fides and then crap all over that list. This is a lose/lose situation which I don't encounter IRL so my new position, after this final post, is to ignore the topic on this board from here on in.
Boomer
(4,159 posts)This isn't rocket science, but it does require just a moment's pause and some basic ability to empathize.
Feel free to tell ANYONE how much you love Bernie and ALL the reasons why.
Do not, however, go up to a black person and without being asked begin whitesplaining why Bernie's specific record of activity on civil rights would change their minds.
artislife
(9,497 posts)I also have to note that h supporters are given a free pass when mentioning anything race.
I am a Latina, Bernie supporter.
I am *saddened that I haven't seen any OPs directed at me and my people from either side in why I/We should vote for them.
I also want to point out that both sides of the aisle are forgetting that the group of minority that they are using to make a political point for their candidate is actually made up of individuals who have real lives, real fears, real emotions, real experiences and for the most part don't like being formed together into a brick that is used to break the windows of the other candidate's support.
That said, think about how you are posting your OP or reply and change the noun of the group you are targeting and replace it with a noun that you identify with. Then read it out loud and ask yourself if it sounds like it is talking down to you, trying to school you with "education" or admonish your behavior.
If you want to highlight say, receiving money from private prison companies...say something like "My candidate doesn't take money from private prison companies. I like this because it is a business that makes money incarcerating individuals and that leads them to want to make higher and higher profits each year. Thus they support laws and actions that would support their business plan. I don't like this for many reasons and one of them is that most people targeted are poorer and minorities. This is not the fair and wonderful country that I want to live in."
See. There is no admonishment, no "educating the audience out of their stupidity or apathy" and you highlight your views, your candidate's views and the points that are important to you to chose the candidate.
*you know I do not really mean this particular word.
mikehiggins
(5,614 posts)My wife was born in Puerto Rico and raised in NYC. Me being Irish-American we naturally hit it off right away but she thought my politics was crazy.
One afternoon she listened to one of Sanders speeches on the TV and was astonished. She'd never heard anything like that before. She intends to vote for him, not because she supports me but because he supports her and what she thinks.
One voter at a time...
artislife
(9,497 posts)Exactly!
one_voice
(20,043 posts)I was an O'Malley supporter and my husband was leaning that way as well. When he suspended he went Hillary.
He was camp Hillary in '08. I was Obama. We always had reasonable discussion. In the end he voted for Obama.
Right now he says there's nothing that can sway him to Bernie right now.. When I ask him why, he says this. 1) Foreign policy. He thinks Hillary shines here. You're not going to convince him otherwise. 2) He doesn't see a pathway for many of Bernie's policies. He says if Bernie is our nominee he will vote for him without hesitation.
I'm still undecided. There are things I like about both our candidates and things I don't.
Other family--Dad is Hillary. Mom is Bernie. as of right now.
None of us are ripping each others heads off over decisions & differences.
This is a very odd election year, I think.
artislife
(9,497 posts)My parents and one brother have all passed.
But he and I are full on Bernie supporters. He has always been far more left than me. I am pretty amiable, keep the peace/hate confrontation and have been pretty pragmatic in life. Lots of shit has happened and dealing with it with the idea of "It is what it is" has helped me cope for the most part.
But something has jutted out through the soil in these last few years. I think it is a passion for living instead of just surviving. And I am not willing to be in a numb, safe space anymore. I am willing to jump into the unknown because the known is just shades of beige.
one_voice
(20,043 posts)My family is so mixed, culturally & racially. We have some supporting Bernie some Hillary and some undecided. Thank goodness none are republicans.
My husband's family was/is very political. His auntie has pictures with President Obama. She worked on some sort of Latina outreach program. She's also gotten funding to open a preschool for lower income families in my state. She's a pretty big deal around here. I have pictures of my mother in law with VP Biden.
Senator Coons came to speak at my mother in law's funeral when she passed. Policies aimed to help PoC are very important to both sides of my family. Both sides are very racially diverse. My nephew could be the next Tamir Rice.
As a Latina you know what I'm talking about. Any Hispanic with darker skin gets the treatment too. My son was coming home from the gym one night. His car has rims, a booming system and tinted windows. He was pulled over. As soon as they saw him and looked at his license they wanted to search the car. He let them. I was furious. He was profiled. My son has a masters degree and has never so much as had a speeding ticket. But that's the way it goes...
I find it interesting all this talk of race who's better etc. What we need to do is get better Dems down ballot and get the baggers out. That would help immensely.
This day and age I'd bet just about all our families have a PoC, a poor person, a disabled person, someone that needs a good strong Democratic Senate & Congress to work with/put pressure on a Democratic President.
That's my take anyway.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)than past good acts. That naturally leads to questions - "But Sanders did _____, so why Clinton?"
And that question frequently does not get answered. So the question gets asked differently or more forcefully, gets no answer, and the cycle repeats.
We'd really like to know why apologizing for "superpredators" is better than opposing the bill to fight them. We'd really like to know why starting the birther movement in the 2008 primary is just as meaningless as opposing cuts that disproportionately hurt minorities due to structural racism.
And in my not-particularly-educated opinion, I think a lot of the reason why comes down to lack of trust in the electorate. That going "out on a limb" for Sanders is too risky. And that even if Sanders got elected, we would ignore our "40 acres and a mule" promise, again. So a good number of voters are overlooking flaws for safety.
Which means things could get quite interesting in the next few weeks. Historically, Clinton has responded to political adversity with kitchen-sink attacks. Those have the effect of making her look desperate, and much less safe.
We'll see what happens as time moves on. I strongly suspect this meme will be far weaker next month, given that Clinton's own post-NH campaign memo downplayed NV and SC in favor of the March primaries.
mikehiggins
(5,614 posts)AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)Give it up. The trend is the more people hear about Bernie the more support him. Period.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)to Hillary-splain to me because, frankly, I don't get it.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)SwampG8r
(10,287 posts)This guy i never heard of before today so not so much.
If curtis blow says anything let me know
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)Does this qualify?
Nedsdag
(2,437 posts)Do not assume that all black folks needed white folks to tell them who to vote for or who to support.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)For all I know, black voters want more wars in the middle east, more expensive college education, healthcare rationed by ability to pay, greater inequality, and an inauthentic president.
I'll let you be their spokesperson.
thereismore
(13,326 posts)some of the serious comments here and respond? Please.
ericson00
(2,707 posts)and yes, Charles Blow has a point!
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)But there's nothing wrong with advocating for one's candidate and promoting what he (or she) has done and can do for ANY group of people. Advocating isn't always "splaining". That's just a taunt meant to shut down the political conversation.