Sharpton: Sanders Did Not Address How Race Affects Income Inequality
One of the things that I was saying to Senator Sanders is saying that youve got to deal with income inequality and wages is fine, but what about the race element of that? Sharpton said on MSNBCs Morning Joe.
He did not address that directly, the reverend added. Thats what I was pressing him on.
"Median income would soar by more than $22,000. Nearly 26 million jobs would be created. The unemployment rate would fall to 3.8%."
According to numerous economists--Sander's economic policies would help all people of all races and creeds in America.
This is why Sanders is running--to help all people.
His message, thus far, has been widely disseminated to those in the early primary states. And they love it. They've embraced Sanders. Additional states and their people, will do the same.
Very excited for Nevada and SC to be exposed to Sander's message and his amazing ideas--up close and personal through Sander's campaign.
but you keep on keeping on--with your robot talking points that have no basis in fact.
Whether you want to believe or not unless funds are allocated in a way that targets POC, nothing will change.
and there is no signal that Bernie is against targeting funds or African American communities.
Last edited Thu Feb 11, 2016, 12:30 PM - Edit history (1)
He pledged $200 billion a year for five years targeted to AA communities. He did it quietly, of course and in response to a question.
Of course he was then accused of pandering.
and build false narratives about Bernie and how he doesn't care about PoC.
Bernie's campaign, thus far, has been played out in states with very low minority populations. That doesn't mean that he doesn't care about minorities. It means, he's heading toward them and spreading his message.
Maybe they'll like it. Maybe they won't. We'll see. Maybe they'll kick Hillary to the curb for using minorities as a political football.
But to lie and distort and attempt to build false narratives is really twisted.
Shows how desperate the Clinton camp is.
They're constantly lying about Sanders, and they've got nothing positive to say themselves. Hollow, empty failure of a campaign they're running over there in the land of desperation.
No one speaks for POC! No one! Not Hillary. Not Sanders. Not me. Not YOU. Not any of their supporters. NO ONE!!
"In her support for the 1994 crime bill, for example, she used racially coded rhetoric to cast black children as animals. They are not just gangs of kids anymore, she said. They are often the kinds of kids that are called super-predators. No conscience, no empathy. We can talk about why they ended up that way, but first we have to bring them to heel.
I'm sure many many many people think for themselves and non other than themselves.
anyone else, and that includes Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton or any of their black supporters.
Please don't be silly and stop with the insults.
One moment you are stating what PoC think, then you say they think for themselves, then you claim not to speak for them.....
I wish you'd make up your mind
How people react to that is another matter.
I respect that you think for yourself. You decide! No one else.
However, the problem is that people are spending this horrendously inordinate amount of time telling the world that Bernie Sanders does not care about minorities or the issues facing them.
That is a lie. That is the problem I have--that Clinton builds false narratives. She's not playing fair.
No one is suggesting that you can't make up your own mind. Of course you can. And you will. And you should.
I respect that you may support Clinton or that you may not support Sanders.
My contention with all of this is that Sander's and his views are being misrepresented. That's all.
Black voters think for themselves.
Why do you have disdain for Bernie?
>> My disdain for Sanders is from my OWN mind!
Mmmm. I see.
When Bernie was asked "Black Lives Matter" or "All Lives Matter" he chose the former.
Ostensibly, the latter is more egalitarian.
But, Bernie chose the former, and the reason was something along the lines that BLM has very immediate needs. The way the police and the economic big wigs treat blacks is horrible!
I'm sorry I don't have a link. It was an interview I saw.
I won't be supporting him. Period. Get over it. Grow up. Deal with it.
There won't be any money left because his platform if implemented, will cost trillions. Taxing the rich and corporations more won't pay for it all.
toward specific communities and to specific geographic areas that need help with their schools, infrastructures and programs that would target African American needs.
I also believe that talking about these issues helps a great deal--as Obama has done. Bernie has been a civil-rights advocate since his days of being arrested for fighting for civil rights, and also marching with MLK. I believe that he truly cares about these issues and that they are at his core. Just as they are for many liberal Democrats.
As far as paying for things...Do you know how long the mega-corporations have been getting a free ride? Companies like GE make billions every quarter and they pay little to NO taxes. What happens when those companies start paying? What happens when millionaires and billionaires start paying their fair share?
Bernie's healthcare plan would be paid by an increase in the payroll tax--an extra $175 per month per family. We pay $550 per month now for healthcare. We'd save so much money. But that payroll tax is how it would be done. Bernie's college tuition for all would be paid by taxing Wall-Street speculators. A fraction of a percent. They'd finally pay. His plans and ideas are well thought out. They may not be absolutely perfect, but the foundation is there for great things to happen.
I personally, do not trust Clinton to do anything for minorities. She engages in a lot of lip service and does nothing. I believe she will say and do anything to get elected. I think she uses minorities like a political football. The clear pivot to eviscerating Sanders--right when NH was over--shows that this is nothing more than soundbites and strategy to her. How can a person respect a minority population or truly have their best interests at heart--when they try to eviscerate their opponent by using minorities to do so?
Minorities are not objects. I don't trust anyone who objectifies any group for political gain. So, Hillary for me is someone who has no ideas and uses ghastly tactics to gain minority support.
Gerald Friedman, a University of Massachusetts Amherst economics professor agrees with Sanders.
"Other economists, however, feel that Friedman's analysis is overly optimistic, saying it would be difficult to achieve that level of economic prosperity. Last week, the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget said Sanders' plan to pay for health care would fall short by at least $3 trillion."
Under Clinton, nothing will change. Your choice is laid out before you. Do you want to take the red pill, or the blue pill?
Bernie has no plan for that except a political Revolution. A detailed plan would help.
...the revolution will be right behind him. The American people will be lined up behind him, demanding change.
We are so ready for this fight.
We were ready for it with Obama. Obama had all of us ready to fight. We were lined up...fired up, ready to go!
Obama decided on to compromise and take it from there. Obama has been a great president and I am thankful every day that he thwarted more Middle East war and that he brought this economy back from the dead. He did a great job.
However, he did not leverage the power of the people that were standing behind him after his win.
Sanders will do that. He plans to do that. He is hell bent on doing that.
Can you feel this movement growing behind Sanders? I do. It's people powered, it's young and old--men and women. And it's growing stronger by the day. We're read to elect real change with Sanders and we'll be right there when he uses WE THE PEOPLE as leverage to tell Congress to get their shit together. Obama never took the fight to the American people.
And overwhelming Sanders support and unprecedented Dem turnout will help down ticket races too. We could win some key Congressional seats with Sanders at the top of the ticket.
We can do this!!!
All people would benefit.
I'm sorry that doesn't fit with the memes that you so desperately want to stick.
... basis behind it just a claim which I'm not interested in anymore.
My comment though does have history behind, the all boats rises is predicated on all people being able to afford boats or being able to at least swim.
as a candidate who does not care about the African American community. In my estimation, this is nothing more than an attack and a smear. Most notably, this smear was kicked into overdrive--the second the campaigns left New Hampshire.
A smear perpetuated by so many of you--that is a political hit job. I find it repulsive. And I'll call it out when I see it.
No doubt, this deluge of unfair posts against Sanders--is a pathetic attempt to build a narrative and make it stick and harm him as we head into South Carolina.
Damn right my statement is condescending! It was meant to be condescending. Because the tidal wave of posts, since New Hampshire are a pathetic attempt to build a narrative by using classes and races as objects to smear Sanders.
Furthermore, Sander's economic policies--which would be an economic boon to all people in this country, are the centerpiece of his campaign. Of course, there is no "historical basis" because these are his plans going forward. Raising the minimum wage to $15, saving families hundreds of dollars per month on healthcare costs and directing taxes to repairing crumbling neighborhoods, schools and infrastructure--would directly help all people--the African American community.
.... people of color on DU have been screaming this for months.
HILLARY HAS A RELATIONSHIP, IMPERFECT, BUT WE KNOW HER...
I don't know how many articles have been written about this, its like the left dismissed people of color just like they dismissed Obama and could've gave a damn about what we thought
until our votes were needed
has been largely ignored by government, and that there is a rampant dishonesty during elections.
Suddenly, everyone is pandering to you and promising you things that will never be delivered.
I get that. And I am just as appalled as you that it is happening.
In 2008, Hillary hired an PR firm that specialized in African American marketing and media relations. That is very telling. She attempts to craft messaging and use these tactics to help her win. I've seen no evidence, since 2008, of her working hard for the African American community. Yet, her entire campaign is attacking Bernie for being insensitive to African Americans.
That is so wrong!
Bernie is not the one using African Americans as an attack device! Please remember that!
belittle and condescend black people, as always.
This is why many blacks do not trust white liberals. The paternalism, the arrogance, the condescension.
I'm kindly asking for it to stop.
and I think time and time again, politicians have failed minorities.
One thing that "We The People" have in common is that our government is no longer listening to any of us. They are owned by the corporations. But wow, do they love us during campaign season. Suddenly, they care. Suddenly, they want to make our lives better.
I know how you feel, to some extent, because I have felt ignored and pandered to by all politicians during the last couple of election cycles.
I can never fully understand how you feel about this--because you have been dealing with this for a lot longer.
It's not right. It's not right for ANY of us to be used in this manner.
You think Sanders cares more, but you know Hillary better? So you know her and STILL think she cares less, but knowing that makes you support her?
Bernie's encompassing message directly addresses the African American community, and has for decades. Anyone who doesn't understand that, either doesn't wish to, has their heads stuck up their ass, or are simply dishonest.
and lies--and it is hard to combat it.
It's like David vs. Goliath.
If the Clinton camp gave the directive to smear Bernie with 3rd-grade teachers from St. Louis--the next day--the Internet would be overrun with slams, mocking, horrible hate, howling and guffawing about how Bernie just can't connect and isn't interested in 3rd-grade teachers from St. Louis.
These types of acts are not the behavior or an authentic, grounded candidate with a decent campaign behind her. These are the acts of bullies and Pez Dispenser flacks who will dish out whatever she commands.
Even if it's hateful. Even if it's wrong. Even if it's untrue. The narrative of the day must be pushed. And it must be pushed hard.
Obama used up all his political capital in getting Obamacare passed and that was when the Dems controlled both Houses.
I explained this in a previous post but I think these two things are factors:
Obama did spend his political capital on Obamacare. However, he did not take the fight to the American people. And again, I think Obama was one of our best Presidents and the damage he prevented (from the neocons who he did not appease) and the paradigm shifts in our economy--were amazing accomplishments.
Bernie plans to leverage the support of the American people after the election and take it to DC with him. Sanders has said repeatedly, no one politician can do this alone! We're talking about busting up very powerful, entrenched interests. They will not go gentle into that good night! However, they are no match for "We The People."
We're like fricking Dororthy from the Wizard of Oz. We had the power all along. We just didn't realize it. We are all traumatized! We've been lied to! We've watched our government morph into some kind of perverse corporate kow towing machine. We watched Occupy Wall Street rise, get the crap kicked out of them on the NYC streets and then we saw it wither. I think many of us have given up hope--until Bernie.
Bernie will be the figurehead that will galvanize "We The People" into affecting change. He has our backs. He will lead the charge but we have to be there too. It's the only way we win.
Bernie can't do it without "We The People" and "We The People" can't do it without Bernie. But together--we can and will!
I also believe that if Bernie is Democratic nominee he will coalesce such a force behind him--it will be mind blowing. It will bring new people into the political process and the days of only 40 percent of Americans voting will die--as it should! I think this influx of new voters and people inspired by Bernie and his ideas will help down ticket races. We could pick up key Congressional wins to help with getting a Congress that will work with Bernie and not against him. That's my take.
... the devil we don't know is coming promising the world and bashing the guy we do like as prsident ... calling him weak and hanging around people who've called him some of the most racially vile names I could ever hear for the sake of slighting one of them on SEATING ARRANGMENTS!!!
Tell me again how black lives mattered to them during that 16 year stretch. Tell me again how black lives improved.
The devil you know indeed.
... answer to this question or do you already know it and don't want to say it?
... saying why for months.
I honestly think that Sanders et al thought "momentum" would actually change things...
it would NOT.. and has not... Sanders should've known coming out of IA with a loSS of 25% of the PoC vote that he had a problem.
Obama didn't have "mommentum" going into SC... Obama developed a dialogue with blacks WAAAAAAY before SC....
Like Tracy Morgan said "Barack Husssien Obama"... THAT'S TOO BLACK !!!
Only black politico knew who Obama was and knew he wife didn't want to be involved at first... hell, it was in all the BLACK magazines
Obama started a dialogue... Sanders didn't and now he has some catching up to do
The now famous "Bring them to heal" (Black intercity youths) comment is what turned the tide for Obama.
Prior to that comment Clinton was winning 60/40 of the black vote, after that it flip-flopped in favor or Obama.
... Clinton and "bring them to heal"
"In her support for the 1994 crime bill, for example, she used racially coded rhetoric to cast black children as animals. They are not just gangs of kids anymore, she said. They are often the kinds of kids that are called super-predators. No conscience, no empathy. We can talk about why they ended up that way, but first we have to bring them to heel.
... again, there's people who keep ssaying she said something about black kids and I haven't read or heard one word of that in that speech.
Also, Sanders voted for the 94 bill ... Clinton did not
That is Sanders cross to bear and NOT Clintons
I posted a full link....there was no video, but you can read it for yourself by going to the link.
And the "Cross" We aren't debating the 1994 Bill itself...that's another topic altogether, what we are talking about are Hillaries comments about the inner city kids....the document speaks for itself
" she used racially coded rhetoric to cast black children as animals. They are not just gangs of kids anymore, she said. They are often the kinds of kids that are called super-predators. No conscience, no empathy. We can talk about why they ended up that way, but first we have to bring them to heel.
Are you trying to dispute what she said?
I get it now....this is the "I never heard her say anything" argument.
Sorry, not playing that game
if you aren't even going to acknowledge indisputable video evidence, we can banter all day and you'll still sit there with your Eyes and ears shut while singing Lalalalalalalala
I'm done, go vote for Clinton for all I care, it's your choice.
When people get like this it usually means their positions are weak
The hell Anyone has heard that before.
...from Hillary supporters, all the things you mentioned aren't going to apply to PoC
Now...."No one" said that directly, so I am quoting no one....
that supposedly helps ***everyone***.
And as long as Sanders and his friends don't want to admit or accept this as the reality, he has lost my vote.
I'm a "Tide lifts all boats" type.
PoC will benefit just like everyone else. But to hear some Hillary types you'd think it wouldn't happen that way
it seems the "most" distorted issue is the one about Race.
Bernie hasn't delved into a "protected class" type of discussion, rather, he has been talking about "All Americans"
no hyphen needed.
That's why "the particulars don't matter" to you.
... to PoC causes.
What the hell?!!?
lol... we've heard it all before...
Class over race bullshit will push more black folks away from Sanders.
He must start being HONEST about race. He and his fanatics!
he has no tangible relationship with blacks like the Clintons, even though their policies were disastrous for blacks. Michelle Alexander noted that a better way to count unemployment among blacks is to count those incarcerated. When you do that, unemployment is 42%. Maybe that's the unemployment number Trump "heard."
. . . it doesn't change the fact that African-Americans are disproportionately poorer and there is no justifiable reason for that. That is what Sharpton is saying.
We know where Hillary Clinton stands.
Deflection does not let Sanders off the hook.
I'm leaning towards Sanders. However by the time my primary comes around he may be done. No one black or white has told me who or how to vote. Your condescending tone is tiresome.
I don't like or trust Hillary, but I don't think deriding Sanders is helping.
The way you are posting, you are either going to do the following:
Not vote at all making you a hypocrite.
Vote for the Green Party candidate.
Vote for Hillary after all.
You sound like a Hillary supporter. You both stick your fingers in the wind.
support Hillary Clinton.
Thanks for helping me make my mind up.
Have a great day!
Think for yourself? Really? You seem very reactionary.
You are just ranting, and making a fool of yourself.
How easily your opinion is swayed.
REASON FOR ALERT
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We want black people to shut up about race and only concern themselves with class...this even though there are middle- and higher-income blacks who still face systemic racism and discrimination.
We Negroes just need to shut the fuck up and vote for Bernie Sanders...because...well because his fanatics say so.
That he thinks these social issues are wedge issues preventing us from achieving an economic solution.
What he doesnt get is there are different reasons for these inequalities. Bernie believes he is right and people are focusing on the wrong thing.
This will not serve him well.
he has lost my vote forever.
Addressing women's issues is seldom viewed as a wedge issue.
Addressing issues that affect the Jewish population are seldom viewed as wedge issues.
Addressing issues that affect the LGBT **used** to be viewed as wedge issues, but...
When it comes to race, no one can talk about this.
This is the problem that Eric Holder identified when he rightfully referred to this nation as one of "cowards" on the race issue.
We simply refuse to accept that racism exists and permeates every aspect of American life.
and take our attention and action away from the "real" issue that will help everyone. Never mistake what it is they are really saying.
Cause that everyone as we know doesnt include everyone.
an epiphenomenon designed to obscure class oppression.
I think Sanders people just have to eat that belief system (most believe it themselves - though I've seen exceptions). Sanders "Together" ad is a good example: if only we can see past all the ways "they" divide us, we can deal with the "real" oppression, which is class. Hey, it's fine as a belief system, but it's not particularly complex intersectional thought, and it's not surprising that minority communities that rejected that line of reasoning in the 60's and 70's continue to reject it. The notion that if you solve the class problem, the race (or gender, or LGBTQ, or etc.) issues will clear themselves up is silly. But it is a core New Left belief, largely unmodified in the Sanders' program.
Sanders basic belief system privileges class as the primary site of oppression / political action. It is the economic base, upon which the "cultural" superstructures of those other oppressions rests. Again, fine. If that's your belief system, fine. It's classic New Left. If that's what you believe, then vote that way.
... deal with it doesn't make that any better.
I don't how this is not a practical thing to see
Economic policies that benefit everyone (which is what Sanders is fighting for), and racism--are two separate issues.
Sanders clearly is a fighter on both counts.
I'm sorry that this doesn't fit with the nasty, erroneous talking points that you're dishing out today.
You're simply wrong.
... problem any honest person would.
My point is if he doesn't have a practical way around it then don't bash other people who have...
Right now his campaign is trying to tie Clinton to a vote he made in the 90s...start a dialogue with people is a lot more ....
than chiding them for not picking him as a candidate
in this gun / militarized cop culture that we live in. Ask Henry Louis Gates, Garrick and Carl Hopkins, Trayvon Martin, or others who were assaulted or killed at or near their homes by cops or neighbors. These victims weren't in "bad" neighborhoods.
Neither Bernie nor Hillary can singlehandedly eradicate racism, but as Hillary often states, you can create and/or change laws.
How can Bernie create or change laws in a meaningful way if he doesn't even acknowledge that there's a problem?
I don't think Sanders uses those phrases. They sound kinda pointy headed. Does he seem like an activist professor?
It's pretty obvious from your post that you have no clue what left means. Not old left, not new left, not any left. Your entire post is backwards on every point of contention. There is no line of actual leftist analysis that doesn't address capitalist social relations and class as part of any discussion of racial justice. That is not "a belief system" in the subjective. That is objective material and historical reality.
Even the radicals of the Black Nationalist and Black Power movements who didn't particularly care for working with radical whitey... firmly understood the role of class, capitalist social relations, the relationship between the ruling class capitalist power structure and institutionalized racism, and political economy.
Your post is the poster child for neoliberal identity politics drivel in defense of the capitalist power structure. That you imply that institutionalized racism can be addressed in the "changing of thoughts and attitudes" without addressing the power that the capitalist ruling class (steeped in white supremacy) wields is very amusing.
" If a white man wants to lynch me, thats his problem. If hes got the power to lynch me, thats my problem. Racism is not a question of attitude; its a question of power."
Now do tell where that power derives from alcibiades_mystery.
The fact that you can rehearse the classic left analysis in its own terms doesn't invalidate my point at all. Like I said, some people actually believe it. That's you. Good on you.
Needless to say, the fact that people involved in anti-racism activism recognize class as a problem doesn't invalidate my point either. They function in complex ways together. The problem with Sandersesque New Left analysis is that it tends to ignore those complexities in favor of the class analysis.
neither is liberalism or the Democratic Party. That said...Sanders understands the role that economic class plays even if his vanilla solutions of capitalist reform can never be the answer in the long run. The connectedness between race and class under the capitalist power structure is not a New Left construct. Neoliberalism is a New Left construct. You're not kidding anyone who has even a cursory understanding of the terms you're using.
Last edited Thu Feb 11, 2016, 02:51 PM - Edit history (1)
construct in the 1960s, in order to distinguish it from the "Old Left" of the 30s and 40s. In that sense, I don't believe Neoliberalism is a "New Left construct," although many of neoliberalism's current adherents may be disillusioned New Leftists.
I disagree that Neoliberalism is not a New Left construct. The New Left was always steeped in the identity politics of ignoring class analysis classical Marxism. All of the ideology of the New Left (mostly dominated by liberals ) movements was steeped in "Capitalism as the end of history" while working around that and an ignorance and denunciation of the class analysis of the Old Left. Equality FOR ALL was never the rallying cry. "Equality of opportunity" under capitalist social relations was the rallying cry for most of those movements. Neoliberalism was the natural procession of that New Left ideology. Maybe I'm missing something.
But haven't read him since undergrad so that may be wrong (Marcuse? Sartre? Somebody French at any rate).
(EDIT: always Google first, not second! Marcuse, not Sauvy. My bad.)
see the shit he gets from some of my Socialist and Communist comrades (those of the Marxist-Leninst-Maoist ilk, that is).
I had to leave a couple of their groups because I'm supporting a bourgeois Social Democrat!
It's not personal. The divide between Bernie and Marxists and the anti-capitalist left is one that would be hard to reconcile. I post elsewhere. I've been mostly in the leftist camp. The Bernie supporters have been pretty rough on the leftists and Marxists also. The Democratic Party is a dead issue for most leftists. There are no possible redeeming qualities in support of the two-party circus for many. I've been torn for a little while now. On the one hand Bernie has opened up a narrative that has some potential to raise leftist demands. On the other... a lot of it flies in the face of leftist (anti-capitalist) analysis.
lets here your proposed solutions for lifting poor Black communities out of poverty stricken conditions. Let's here how the policies of neoliberals like Obama and the Clintons have been such a smashing success
All said with nothing but good intentions, I am sure.
the race-baiting of reactionaries of any stripe rolls off the shoulder of leftists like melting meaningless ice. You're gonna need more than that to make your case. You've injected yourself in my comments on more than one occasion now but you've offered nothing in response of any worth. As I told you yesterday. This is not an argument you can win. Black leftists and white leftists and leftists of all colors and creeds laugh at the memes you provide. There is full agreement that class and race can't be separated in the fight for Social and Economic justice. The only people who say they can are those who don't want to confront the capitalist power structure and capitalist social relations as a problem.
HA. Good luck with that.
to the dead end that is the cognitive dissonance of your thinking... in ignoring class relations under the capitalist power structure while trying to fight institutionalized racism.
lots of us are used to that. Can you guess why?
reactionaries of all stripes don't like to hear the truth about their complicity in the continuation and defense of business as usual. There are many here who could give a shit less about their brothers/sisters living in abject poverty as long as they get to preserve their own economic self-interests and political comfort zone.
"1-2-3-4 we don't want your fucking class war. We got Hillary and Obama... GO team. LMFAO
Many have described my need for full reproductive freedom and equal pay as a "distraction" or "wedge".
You say that's silly. Do you have a basis for that claim? Putting a phony label on it (New Left) is less than persuasive when it is consistent with virtually every theory of culture I know.
The fact is the Economic Class Issue and creating a strong economically-homogeneous middle class and social safety net for all is essential to defusing the misdirected anger behind these other issues.
the other half is a problem from a leftist perspective. "The Middle Class" is the bait and crumbs the capitalist ruling class throws the workers to keep us neutered and under the illusion that any gains and concessions won are our final destiny. The "Middle Class" is an illusion that can never be a permanent state of prosperity that the workers ( present and future) - AS A WHOLE - can depend on. It is an aberration under the capitalist modes of production that can never be attained or maintained for the whole of the workers going forward. Leftists view that as a problem.
Of course the leftist perspective is vastly outnumbered here and everywhere else, but clarity is needed. Clarity matters. When the leftist perspective is marginalized or co-opted everything moves further right. This is not knocking Sanders or his efforts for some relief for the working class. That said... the Democratic Party and Bernie Sanders should not be trying to redefine leftism for their own liking and mold it into the capitalist power structure that guarantees the continued existence of a ruling class. That is the greatest of insults to genuine leftists of the anti-capitalist variety.
Any accurate vision of the actual nature of conflict must include the internal tug of war over resources between the political economy and the domestic economy. That is what is at play here. We have energy resources and technology that make obsolete the nature of production as it was when Marxist theory emerged.
Democracy makes obsolete the Guilded Age model of "ownership" by enabling regulatory control that unbundles the rights of ownership and allows effective sharing of "ownership".
A blurb from Facebook that I agree with:
You can't have socialism without capitalism or it becomes communism, nor can you have capitalism without socialism, for it becomes fascism.
but it then becomes subjective word-salad. Classical Marxism does not deal in the subjective. Classical Marxism is the study of scientific Socialism based on analysis of historical material reality.
The blurb you provide has zero to do with historical material reality. Is is nothing more than a twisted caricature to defend capitalism that exists only in the mind of the person who provided it. A form of red-baiting. Your correspondent does not understand what capitalism, socialism, or communism is in regards to Marx. Your correspondent is a reactionary who can not let go of the idea of "private property" sans capitalist social relations. The idea of social ownership of the means of production and the commons going forward is something your correspondent wants to avoid. Hence the word-salad to defend capitalism.
"Classical Marxism" is a theoretical construct to explain observed reality. It has a couple of gaping holes in it that cultural materialism does an excellent job of plugging.
Word salad would be an excellent description of your verbose style of expression attempting to deny the progress of knowledge. There is no attempt to deny capitalism. There is not attempt to "red bait". There is just a simple statement of observed reality.
what are your views on the question of private property in regards to (who controls the means of production and resources) and the existence of a ruling class of private capital under the capitalist power structure. What are your views on class struggle.
"The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles. Freeman and slave, patrician and plebeian, lord and serf, guild-master and journeyman, in a word, oppressor and oppressed, stood in constant opposition to one another, carried on an uninterrupted, now hidden, now open fight, a fight that each time ended, either in a revolutionary reconstitution of society at large, or in the common ruin of the contending classes."
-- Karl Marx
Further...there is no statement of observed reality in this utter nonsense. "You can't have socialism without capitalism or it becomes communism, nor can you have capitalism without socialism, for it becomes fascism."
Do you even know what the end game of Marxism is ?
"The society that will organize production on the basis of a free and equal association of the producers will put the whole machinery of the state where it will then belong: into the museum of antiquities, by the side of the spinning wheel and the bronze axe."
-- Friedrich Engels
That is the end game of Marxism and the "scary communism" that your correspondent envisions.
Do you or your correspondent understand what the "withering away of the state" means ? Do you or your correspondent understand what "super abundance" means ?
Now why don't you address these questions instead of finding ways to defend capitalist social relations as a must, and "mixed systems" with a ruling class of private capital, running the show.
A more comprehensive and far more workable theory of culture is Cultural Materialism, the work of Marvin Harris.
BTW, it is 'cut to the chase' not, "cut through the chase".
I didn't ask you if you subscribed to Marx. I asked you about private property, class struggle, and your thoughts on capitalist social relations. You don't have to subscribe to Marx to discuss that. You've also devolved into playing the part of elitist grammar police...a glowing example of why well educated liberals and liberal academics gain no traction with the blue-collar working class. A long topic for another day. You really should read the writings of the late Joe Bageant.
You just don't like the answer that I have no use for Marxist theories. Let me play the role of mirror. You insist I discuss a the elements of a theory that I told you I do not accept. That leads to charges that I'm "avoiding questions" that you are extracting as meaningful solely on the basis of that theory. Even though you have no idea of what my belief structure consists of, your certitude related to Marx apparently enables you to categorize me as someone outside of and unfamiliar with "the blue-collar working class".
You are an incredibly brilliant analyst and astute observer of human nature. So much so that you can discern over the internet things that would be impossible for mere mortals.
I'm humbled to be in your presence.
when you're ready to go there let me know.
and black people, faced with injustice- well now they can afford great lawyers!! And that actually represented some sort of bent equality. Because civil rights ain't as important as what's in his wallet.
Of course, that's because you start with the proposition that you want to besmirch Sanders in any and all things. You could therefore come to no other logical conclusion.
However, those of us who like to start with the template that modern day culture in the US provides are able to see that most of the anger is being inculcated by people who strive to divide those who would otherwise be economically aligned and operating in political solidarity.
here has heard about the "divide and conquer" thing that reduces our lives to inconvenient (for you) wedge issues. We know a lot more than you are capable of giving us credit for. We do not know how he plans to raise taxes with the current congress. His entire campaign depends on it.
There wasn't much solidarity when I needed it, so your self interest does not move me the way you imagine it might. How is that for a wedge?
proportion of the black vote.
He lost mine on this issue.
endorsed him. There's a trust barrier for me when it comes to Bernie. Where was this version of him 4 years ago? I guess he was too busy trying to primary President Obama, but I digress...
Say what you want about Sharpton, but he is a realist who can sift through all the bullshit. He's fair and practical. I trust his judgment.
It'll be interesting to see how his meeting with Clinton goes next week.
If he'd have asked for specifics Sanders didn't address, I'm sure he'd have gotten answers to them, or at least an acknowledgment by Sanders that they were important and needed to be addressed. I really don't understand why people just don't come out and ASK the questions they have.
and listen to black people and then black people ask white people a question .... and white people answer and black people say I told you to shut up and listen.
it is fucked up bullshit on here.
I told this story here before.
I am white...My friend who is black and I were building a door and a door case. He built his own home. I couldn't even assemble a vacuum cleaner with a manual. I digress...We went to the Loews store is Sanford, Florida to buy the materials. He is a millionaire. He made a small investment in a black owned community banks whose assets spiraled. He also was retired career military and civilian. While we were shopping we saw this woman and her husband shopping. She had her bag in the cart which couldn't have been more than a couple of feet away. When she saw us she instinctively grabbed her bag, not even trying to be discreet, as to not offend us. My friend said "I guess she doesn't trust us." His wealth still didn't prevent him from petty indignities.
He had two homes, one in NC and one in FL. When my gf and I went to visit him in his NC home which was a couple of miles from Fort Bragg where he was stationed he was telling us he wanted to buy land on the other side of the road but the owners wouldn't sell it to him because he was black.
But he believed In America's promise. He joined the military when he was seventeen. I asked him how he could serve a country that discriminated against him. He said he believed in America's promise.
It is a snapshot in time that reflects the existing push to divide us with false memes that resist any direct solution by government.
You can't legislate the racial issues away by making racism illegal. You can, over time, defuse the mistrust by bringing the entire population of the country into the realm of economic security and ensuring real access to the benefits that society offers.
A true living wage.
Educational opportunity at all levels unfettered by lack of funding.
Universal and fair access to health care.
These form a foundation for a degree of opportunity for EveryOne that no amount of legislation targeted at race could ever possibly achieve.
.... during her "Maybe I should only talk to white people" argument, didn't she acknowledge you don't change hearts but you can change laws and policies?
Among my African American friends, I have two friends that are textbook examples of families who, and this is based on their own telling of the story, made it in to the middle class via affirmative action and pressure to integrate unions.
One friend is a son of a cop and the other is the daughter of an Anhueser Bush union member. These friends don't know eachother that well but both tell similar stories of their fathers being among the first African American workers in their respective jobs. Both families led middle class lifestyles and sent all their kids to college. Both families have successful children with kids (at least the kids I know) earning six figure incomes. The son of the cop is a republican, btw. So there's that.
There are always going to be old white people who grab their purse or cross the street when they see a black person. I don't know what we will ever do about that but watch them die off. In the mean while, lifting all boats, while being mindful of racial issues, is a hell of a lot better than nothing.
just makes sense, after all men don't leave their wallets 10 ft away in a shopping cart , do they?
So before he endorses Clinton (publicly) it can be seen that Sharpton gave both equal opportunity to make their case.
My prediction is that moments after he meets with Clinton he'll come out and endorse her. They might even go before the cameras together.
Meeting with Bernie Sanders yesterday was just a dog and pony show so that when he does endorse Hillary Clinton it will be lauded by the ma$$es as Hillary's breakthrough moment.
time? Sharpton is full of shit. I saw the video and accompanying article and there was a timeline, they were in and out . it seemed like just a long photo op and then it was over.
He's a good man that's never had to win African American votes. Vermont is 0.87% African-American, after all. Maybe in Vermont it's impolite to place civil/economic issues within a racial framework. He's probably trying to be nice and inclusive of all people, but he's going to have to learn quickly to address issues of race head on.
It's not CLASS! It's RACE!!!!!!
Bernie does not understand this. He keeps arguing this class bullshit. Wealthy blacks get falsely accused of shit and thrown in jail! It's not class, Bernie!! It's RACE!!
Sanders is no leftist but at least he understands the connection between class and race. You don't seem to have a clue. The education begins with an understanding that the foundations of institutionalized racism are completely connected to capitalism. It begins with the understanding that institutionalized racism and murderous police brutality can not be addressed without addressing capitalist social relations and issues of class simultaneously. It begins with the understanding that the identity politics of fighting for "Social Justice" while ignoring Economic Justice and class distinctions is a meaningless dead end. It requires an understanding that the Black bourgeois political class of the Democratic Party and their tools are complicit in the destruction of Black communities.
Here is a link that might help you on your journey. No.. I don't give a shit who you vote for and no I don't give a shit if you ever get it. That is your responsibility to recognize that class and race are inseparable in regards to challenging the capitalist power structure that thrives on institutionalized and structural racism.
and Sanders is far from a Marxist so you have even less. You've just proven you have no interest in discussing anything but your obsession with painting Sanders as "racially insensitive" to score points for your preferred status quo candidate. Who do you think you're kidding ?
I believe that class matters, however, African Americans face issues that many other disenfranchised peoples have not had to face, especially over such an extended period time. Would a level economic playing field matter to African American voters? Hell, yes! However, many other civil justice issues have to be addressed, too. Perhaps, they can be addressed within a discussion about "class only," but I sure don't see how.
It's a very painful subject to talk about, but if we search our collective memory we see that a lack of attention to "race" has resulted in horrific consequences, think police brutality, Flint MI, and the response to Katrina. I imagine we can all see how these issues are related to class, but to deign that they are also deeply entrenched in race would be insane. Granted, an economic shift is perhaps one of the largest keys to solving this problem, but that takes a long time, there has to be something done right away to begin to assure people's safety and civil rights.
Bernie is willing to return to these issues again and again until he gets it right. After the BLM protests, he met several times with BLM representatives who helped him hone his message and bring BLM issues to the forefront. I've no doubt he will continue to try and get it right. This man is tenacious and he's proven that time and again.
Although, I'm a giant Hillary supporter, I think Bernie is a very good man. He's super smart and he cares, so I'm sure he'll eventually get it right.
here at DU but many refuse to understand or accept!
1) Sanders needs to more specifically describe how his framework will help Black folks, in particular
2) you don't believe that his framework will help Black folks, in particular.
Again, because middle class blacks still face systematic racism and discrimination.
Because I could be dressed in my suit and still be denied a job, even with 3 advanced degrees.
Race and class intersect at some level, sure. But RACE came first!
Bernie Sanders and many of his supporters do not seem to understand this. Or, in my view, they are deliberately denying race as a central factor that overlays class--not the other way around.
Even if we got rid of class altogether by redistributing income, RACISM PERSISTS!!
to show that he gets it?
Or is Clinton actually offering some concrete solution in her proposals that you like better?
question, as I've addressed this issue seemingly hundreds of times.
Go to the AA discussion board and see what we POC have to say on this issue.
I'm tired of typing the same explanation over and over again.
including on the AA board. The reason I raised Clinton is that she is the only alternative and I want to understand what she is doing that strikes you as more tuned in to PoC.
I so understand that you'd get sick of typing.
and over again!
People just refuse to listen. And so I am done.
bernie tends to see wage as the great equalizer...he is from the studs terkle generation...I am the child of that gernation...my mothers generation was barb eirenreich....but this is the thing money helps but does not really heal the race class divide unless there is true equality in housing education and health care and truely where everyone is of equal value and egalitarian...that is sort of utopia...so how to get from wage equality closer to utopia...(which can never be reached.) one thing happening on the gender front is men getting paternity leave...again...some men ..the privileged....the theory in america is it should come from the top down when really it should be from the bottom up....for a solid middle class foundation....
One of the things that I was saying to Senator Sanders is saying that youve got to deal with income inequality and wages is fine, but what about the race element of that?
I thought we were done with separate but equal...
Does Al think the proposed $15 an hour minimum wage only applies to whites? What exactly would Al suggest?
he wI'll get behind Bernie. When Al ran in 04 he was the sharpest at the debates and said a lot of what Bernie is saying now.
and while i respect sharpton immensely, the issues of economic injustice affect all of us 99% ers. any of you been to the rural white south? the poverty and class discrimination is just as damaging, just as soul crushing as discrimination against any group. sure, a poor white appalachian can "pass" because of their skin color. until they open their mouth. their accent and clear lack of decent education puts them into the "white trash" category as fast as any discrimination based on appearance.
of course there are issues of institutional racism that have to be addressed. and bernie is the one to address them best imo.
but lets not kid ourselves that the 1% are only trampling on poc. they are trampling on all of us.
I could have a billion dollars in the back and another billion stashed in the Cayman Islands, I'm still going to worry about one of my boys becoming the next Tamir Rice or Trayvon Martin.
When the Cleveland PD rolled up on Tamir Rice they only saw one thing, and it's not the same thing they would have seen had Tamir Rice's parents been poor white Appalachians.
criminal justice reform is a major problem, clearly. and bernie wants to address it by diversifying police departments, better training, decriminalizing pot, having jobs and education available for all people, including poc, getting rid of the dp, eliminating the scourge of profit prisons, rebuilding communities, and keeping jobs here, for starters.
i am not suggesting a poor white person is as likely to be shot as a poc. but the issues of economic disadvantage and all its effects play a role in the lives of poverty stricken of every color.
^ That is simply not true. POC in this country face discrimination in this country that has nothing to do with their economic standing, and everything to do with the fact that their skin isn't white.
but the people who suffer discrimination based on factors other than their skin color can be just as crushed, just as demoralized, just as painstricken as poc, the difference is what prompted the discrimination.
its not a contest. discrimination in all forms sucks and is a scourge on society.
My opinion is that discrimination based on race is distinct and far worse because race is an immutable characteristic, the discrimination transcends class lines, and very often is literally a matter of life and death.
i just think that wherever it comes from or why, it destroys equally, like a virulent cancer.
Why doesn't anyone ever talk about the real way Bernie can make a difference in people's lives?
Treasury, DOJ, SEC, FCC etc etc.
This is the real area of power for any President. Its THE reason money is in politics.
If you don't think this is why the Establishment is scared of a Bernie Administration you haven't been paying attention to whats happened over the last 40 years.
Congress has become kabuki theater to provide cover for where the real damage is being done to Americans. Appointed positions.
I wish the Bernie people would open up this line of reasoning in response to the "But he cant get his free stuff through congress" nonsense.
for some , the concept of free just isn't free enough
can't please everyone, no matter how many promises
I'm getting the feeling that a lot of people, here, have written off economic populism because they assume that because Blacks were often deliberately excluded in the past that they always will be. That is a rather sad attitude to have.
Sanders wants to address income inequality and low wages across the board. Sharpton wanted some sort of statement about how racism keeps us in the situation of income inequality and low wages.
Had Sharpton's attempt been an honest one with open dialogue, he would have offered Sanders some legislative ideas to correct what he felt allowed racism to effect wages. They could have discussed those remedies. Instead, Sharpton wanted a way to paint Sanders as unconcerned about racism.
In addition to the physical violence faced by too many in our country we need to look at the lives of black children and address some difficult facts. Black children, who make up just 18 percent of preschoolers, account for 48 percent of all out-of-school suspensions before kindergarten. We are failing our black children before kindergarten. Black students are expelled at three times the rate of white students. Black girls are suspended at higher rates than all other girls and most boys. According to the Department of Education, African-American students are more likely to suffer harsh punishments suspensions and arrests at school. Black students attend schools with higher concentrations of first-year teachers when compared with white students. Black students are more than three times as likely to attend schools where fewer than 60 percent of teachers meet all state certification and licensure requirements.
Communities of color also face the violence of economic deprivation. Lets be frank: neighborhoods like those in west Baltimore, where Freddie Gray resided, suffer the most. However, the problem of economic immobility isnt just a problem for young men like Freddie Gray. Despite hard-work and the will to get ahead, millions of Americans spend their entire lives struggling to survive on the economic treadmill.
We live at a time when most Americans have less than $10,000 in savings and millions of working adults have no idea how they will ever retire in dignity. An unforeseen car accident, a medical emergency, or the loss of a job could send their lives into an economic tailspin. And the problems are even more serious when we consider race.
Let us not forget: It was the greed, recklessness and illegal behavior on Wall Street that nearly drove the economy off of a cliff seven years ago. While millions of Americans lost their jobs, homes, life savings and ability to send their kids to college, African-Americans who were steered into expensive subprime mortgages were the hardest hit.
Most black and Latino households have less than $350 in savings. The black unemployment rate has remained roughly twice as high as the white rate over the last 40 years, regardless of education. Real African-American youth unemployment is over 50 percent. African-American women earn 64 cents for every dollar white men make. This is unacceptable. The American people in general want change they want a better deal. A fairer deal. A new deal. They want an America with laws and policies that truly reward hard work with economic mobility. They want an America that affords all of its citizens with the economic security to take risks and the opportunity to realize their full potential.
ADDRESSING ECONOMIC VIOLENCE
We need to give our children, regardless of their race or income, a fair shot at attending college. Thats why all public universities should be made tuition free. We should pay for that with a tax on Wall Street speculators.
We must invest $5.5 billion to create 1 million jobs for disadvantaged young Americans who face high unemployment rates and job-training opportunities for hundreds of thousands of young adults. We should pay for that by ending the loophole allowing Wall Street hedge fund managers to pay a lower tax rate than nurses or truck drivers.
We must increase the minimum wage to a livable wage of $15 an hour by 2020 which will increase the wages of about half of African-Americans and nearly 60 percent of Latinos.
We must invest $1 trillion to put 13 million Americans to work rebuilding our crumbling cities, roads, bridges, public transportation systems, airports, drinking water systems and other infrastructure needs. We should pay for that by closing offshore tax loopholes.
We must pass federal legislation to ensure pay equity for women.
We must prevent employers from discriminating against applicants based on criminal history by banning the box.
We must promote policies to give the formerly incarcerated an opportunity for education, including expanding the Second Chance Pell Pilot Program and reentry programs.
We need to ensure access to quality affordable childcare for working families, especially for parents who work non-traditional hours.
We must fundamentally re-write our trade policies and rebuild factories that were closed as a result of bad trade deals.
Especially from the back.
See you under the Bernie bus.