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DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Retired » Retired Forums » 2016 Postmortem (Forum) » Listen To Hillary ...FLIP...

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:56 PM

Listen To Hillary ...FLIP FLOP In Record 3 DAYS On Universal Health Care Just Last Week!!!

HOW can anyone possibly put ANY Credibility or Trust... in ANYTHING... Hillary says?


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Reply Listen To Hillary ...FLIP FLOP In Record 3 DAYS On Universal Health Care Just Last Week!!! (Original post)
CorporatistNation Feb 2016 OP
bkkyosemite Feb 2016 #1
CorporatistNation Feb 2016 #10
ashling Feb 2016 #45
InAbLuEsTaTe Feb 2016 #55
ebayfool Feb 2016 #2
ViseGrip Feb 2016 #3
Fuddnik Feb 2016 #33
CorporatistNation Feb 2016 #4
Bread and Circus Feb 2016 #5
InAbLuEsTaTe Feb 2016 #56
RiverLover Feb 2016 #6
InAbLuEsTaTe Feb 2016 #58
WillyT Feb 2016 #7
NowSam Feb 2016 #8
ViseGrip Feb 2016 #9
nc4bo Feb 2016 #11
AtomicKitten Feb 2016 #21
InAbLuEsTaTe Feb 2016 #59
ViseGrip Feb 2016 #12
arcane1 Feb 2016 #20
thesquanderer Feb 2016 #13
Autumn Feb 2016 #14
thesquanderer Feb 2016 #16
Uncle Joe Feb 2016 #17
arcane1 Feb 2016 #23
Fuddnik Feb 2016 #35
Autumn Feb 2016 #40
CorporatistNation Feb 2016 #52
ViseGrip Feb 2016 #15
CorporatistNation Feb 2016 #19
Adrahil Feb 2016 #18
Hoyt Feb 2016 #32
D Gary Grady Feb 2016 #47
Adrahil Feb 2016 #49
Plucketeer Feb 2016 #69
Hoyt Feb 2016 #71
Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2016 #61
Adrahil Feb 2016 #64
Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2016 #66
Adrahil Feb 2016 #68
Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2016 #72
ViseGrip Feb 2016 #75
CorporatistNation Feb 2016 #22
pa28 Feb 2016 #24
Fuddnik Feb 2016 #36
Doctor_J Feb 2016 #25
Adrahil Feb 2016 #65
Doctor_J Feb 2016 #70
LonePirate Feb 2016 #26
Fuddnik Feb 2016 #39
AzDar Feb 2016 #27
DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2016 #48
bbgrunt Feb 2016 #28
Spitfire of ATJ Feb 2016 #37
Fuddnik Feb 2016 #41
ViseGrip Feb 2016 #81
Feeling the Bern Feb 2016 #29
SoLeftIAmRight Feb 2016 #30
Nyan Feb 2016 #31
lastone Feb 2016 #42
ViseGrip Feb 2016 #79
wouldsman Feb 2016 #34
hedda_foil Feb 2016 #46
SoapBox Feb 2016 #38
PoliticalMalcontent Feb 2016 #43
lastone Feb 2016 #44
InAbLuEsTaTe Feb 2016 #60
dsc Feb 2016 #50
HereSince1628 Feb 2016 #53
dsc Feb 2016 #62
HereSince1628 Feb 2016 #63
CBGLuthier Feb 2016 #51
Recursion Feb 2016 #54
restorefreedom Feb 2016 #57
Ino Feb 2016 #67
ViseGrip Feb 2016 #73
jillan Feb 2016 #74
CharlotteVale Feb 2016 #80
7wo7rees Feb 2016 #76
ViseGrip Feb 2016 #77
ViseGrip Feb 2016 #78

Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:57 PM

1. I don't understand how those that support her can deny

her flip flopping and now using Bernie's words.

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Response to bkkyosemite (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:05 PM

10. The YELLING Is Intolerable!

YELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL.... YELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL... AND YELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL SOME MORE!

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Response to CorporatistNation (Reply #10)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:47 AM

45. Now you know that is mysoginistic.



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Response to bkkyosemite (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 07:36 AM

55. Hillary has become a parody of herself... it would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:58 PM

2. And there it is! n/t

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:59 PM

3. We can watch her be exposed for lying here too, regarding Bosnia and being in harms way!

 



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Response to ViseGrip (Reply #3)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:24 AM

33. Well, the kid was a sniper.

And he had poor eyesight, so he had to get real close.

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:00 PM

4. Hillary Is A Cameleon....

She cannot help herself... It is clinically pathological.

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:00 PM

5. She sounds psycho for one thing. But yeah she is a flip flopper with no core principles.

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Response to Bread and Circus (Reply #5)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 07:37 AM

56. Who the hell is advising Hillary... and why haven't they been fired yet?

Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:01 PM

6. Need we say more?

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Response to RiverLover (Reply #6)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 07:38 AM

58. No... classic!

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:01 PM

7. K & R !!!

 


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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:02 PM

8. I think it's contemptuous eom

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:03 PM

9. Kick!

 

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:06 PM

11. UNTRUSTWORTHY. Period. End. Stop. nt

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Response to nc4bo (Reply #11)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:24 PM

21. And they just don't get why people think she's untrustworthy. She will literally say anything.

 

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Response to AtomicKitten (Reply #21)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 07:39 AM

59. Hillary takes voters for fools... is she ever in for a surprise.

Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:11 PM

12. Our country needs this badly. Healthcare has bankrupted our business and people. How could she!

 

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Response to ViseGrip (Reply #12)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:21 PM

20. Exactly. There is a world of difference between "universal care" and "universal coverage"

 

One is a truly progressive value, and one is the complete opposite.

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:12 PM

13. She wants universal health care...

...where most people are covered by private insurers. Not the "better" single payer or "better" Bernie plan (depending on which defense you read) that she discussed in the first clip.

I'm a Bernie supporter, and I don't see this as a flip-flop. It is consistent with her saying that she wants to build on Obamacare, and does not mean she wants single payer.

Duplicitous, misleading, okay, but not a flip-flop.

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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #13)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:14 PM

14. Coverage was the word that hit me.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #14)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:16 PM

16. Bingo. (n/t)

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Response to Autumn (Reply #14)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:18 PM

17. The for profit "health" insurance industry has got to love that. n/t

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Response to Autumn (Reply #14)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:25 PM

23. Even Frank Luntz would be proud of that wording. Sad to say...

 

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Response to Autumn (Reply #14)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:28 AM

35. Like when Obama quit talking about "Healthcare reform" and switched to "Health Insurance Reform".

Good-bye single-payer and public option.

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Response to Fuddnik (Reply #35)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:36 AM

40. Yep and the day it passed in a presser he called it Insurance Finance Reform

That hit me like a bolt of lightning. Never heard that again and yet that is the ACA, "Insurance Finance Reform".

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Response to thesquanderer (Reply #13)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 07:08 AM

52. The Conventional And Respectd Definition of Universal Health care is Single Payer/ Public Option...

Not expanding the realm of private insurers. I work with private insurers EVERY day and I can tell you with a great deal of authority on the subject... That their goal is to ensure that we all die sometime shortly after retirement... Hillary is in DEEP with the insurance industry so you can depend on her to protect the current paradigm protecting and strengthening the market for BIG INSURANCE! It is all about financing health care and the most cost effective means of accomplishing that goal is to open Medicare to people of ALL ages. I will be putting up my plan here soon which i proposed as a candidate for the house.

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:15 PM

15. BOOM! again...another video she changed a position 45 times! CNN

 

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Response to ViseGrip (Reply #15)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:20 PM

19. WHERE Do You Stand on The Issues Secretary of State Clinton?

Secretary Clinton: "Wherever I need to be on ANY given day."

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:19 PM

18. Universal coveage =! Single payer.

 

I favor universal coverage and a public option. I do not support single payer at this time.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #18)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:24 AM

32. Most folks don't know the difference. While I think single payer is ultimately better, there are

lots of people opposed to one choice. For that reason, and fact there is no chance for single payer in the foreseeable future, I think adding a public option and increased subsidies will help more people faster than standing firm for single payer.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #32)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 02:49 AM

47. I agree: Choice of insurers is a faster path to universal coverage

I personally prefer Bernie, and I agree that Hillary is no paragon of truth-telling, but there's simply no flip-flop at all in what Clinton says in those two clips.

You're right, Hoyt. Rational or not, vast numbers of Americans distrust government and the idea of having no choice. This makes it easy for Republicans to make them afraid of single payer. Fortunately, there are a number of examples of successful universal healthcare systems that don't depend on single-payer -- Germany, Japan, Switzerland, and the Netherlands for a start.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #32)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 06:55 AM

49. Well said! NT

 

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #32)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 10:51 AM

69. So....

 

if there's only ONE "CHOICE" Then there's no alternate "choice" other than to just suffer or let yourself die. And IF said "one choice" saw to it that you got treatment - as good as the treatment industry can offer - cost you less than you could ever HOPE to pay under the ACA - with no life-threatening hospital bill in the aftermath - there would be folks who'd bitch about that???

Certainly, health insurance companies would NOT be kept from offering alternatives, but just how many people would opt to pay (what would by necessity HAVE TO BE outrageous premiums!) for "better" (whatever the hell that might be - likely modern-day snake oil dispensers) care?

Geez - call it Universal Coverage, call it Single Payer, call it Medicare for all - call it whatever you want - EVERYBODY gets treated when they walk into a medical care facility and the only "qualification" is that you're ailing. What "choice" would you rather opt for???

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Response to Plucketeer (Reply #69)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 11:18 AM

71. Germany and France have that, but it's not single payer.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #18)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 08:07 AM

61. coverage != care

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #61)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 08:41 AM

64. possibly true...

 

But generally, I would prefer options, including a public option. There is no reason that the "medicare for all" plan couldn't be the public option, and if it's better, more people would use it, right? But we live in the USA, where idiots will oppose contraceptive coverage, abortion services under ANY circumstances, and possibly other onerous conditions in any public plan.

Just take a look at the UK NHS and how it has unraveled as the Tories have gutted it. There have even been suggestions that treatment for conditions like diabetes be withheld unless patients get bariatric surgery.

No thanks.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #64)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 08:46 AM

66. If every day is Opposite Day with the opposition what makes you think your idea will prosper?

You said it yourself, they'll fight whatever we do just because.

If there can be no peace then marching only half way to the enemy capital will not suffice.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #66)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 10:11 AM

68. Not sure that it will. But it is more practical, and likely to get more support from Democrats. nt

 

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #68)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 11:45 AM

72. So now the problem isn't the GOP but a Democratic party that won't support a President Sanders.

A thousand excuses for failure are sure to succeed.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #72)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:34 PM

75. This is what's really going on ................corporations are running both parties and our country

 

Just like Bernie says!

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:25 PM

22. Hillary "Flip Flop" on TPP!

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:41 PM

24. Wow, she drives the lies in like a staple gun.

Pew, pew, pew.

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Response to pa28 (Reply #24)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:30 AM

36. Staple gun?

More like a pile driver. Only faster.

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 12:07 AM

25. her supporters cheer the fact that she doesn't want healthcare without the profiteers

 

More losses nationwide coming in November. The party has no principles

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #25)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 08:42 AM

65. If a public option is better, wouldn't more people choose it?

 

I support a public option. And if it is better, the private plans should die on the vine, right?

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #65)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 11:13 AM

70. Of course it's better. She won't fight for that either. Big Insurance won't let her

 

Medicare for all is better still, and she doesn't want that. She wants to "expand Obamacare", meaning make everyone pay the death merchants. No thanks. It's already jacked my premiums 50%, and my copays and deductibles 1700%. One more "expansion" and I won't be able to afford to work.

You live in some fantasy world where Clinton is a populist instead of a corporatist.

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 12:10 AM

26. She's either accused of being against the idea or she's being a flip-flopper if she supports it.

There is just no pleasing some people I guess.

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Response to LonePirate (Reply #26)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:34 AM

39. She's kind of like the weather joke in Cleveland.

Don't like the weather? Hang around a couple of days and you'll get what you like.

Don't like her stance on issues or policies? Hang around a couple of hours and you'll get what you like.

She's reminding me more and more of Marco Rubio.

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 12:13 AM

27. I don't understand how *anyone* could support her... ANYONE.

 

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Response to AzDar (Reply #27)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 02:57 AM

48. I don't either--I really don't.

 

I don't understand how anyone who knows enough about her would support her. I have this thing about people looking into my eyes and lying to me. I kind of detest it, and I don't forget it, and I'll "never, ever" support anyone who does it.

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 12:14 AM

28. I think she has lost her bearings. She is beginning to sound quite mad.

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Response to bbgrunt (Reply #28)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:31 AM

37. Her supporters have a hard time keeping up.

 

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Response to bbgrunt (Reply #28)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:36 AM

41. Those are called marbles.

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Response to bbgrunt (Reply #28)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 06:10 PM

81. The yelling is terrible!

 

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 12:56 AM

29. Camp Weathervane strikes again. She feels the burn from Iowa and is now fighting Bernie

 

First, they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win!

We are getting to step four now!

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:12 AM

30. This post must stay on top

 

Where are the Hillary supporters???

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Response to SoLeftIAmRight (Reply #30)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:19 AM

31. They don't care about these things.

They got other things to worry about. Like coronation.

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Response to SoLeftIAmRight (Reply #30)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:37 AM

42. Hiding

 

Under their bubbles!

Lol - I made myself laugh!

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Response to SoLeftIAmRight (Reply #30)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 05:06 PM

79. This is the one thing that would change our country for the better in so many ways from health to

 

business!

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:26 AM

34. early onset?

Ok, I don't mean for this to be any more rude or disruptive than those who have previously called her a chameleon or liar, but seriously I am starting to wonder if she is showing signs of early onset Alzheimer's or dementia. She moves so quickly from one "truth" to another as if she has forgotten what she just said in the very recent past.
Her most recent week of flip flopping is beyond anything I have ever witnessed out of any politician in my life. From her healthcare positions to whether she is a proud progressive or a moderate to whether she wants more debates or not. Where is she at on anything anymore? Does she even know?

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Response to wouldsman (Reply #34)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 02:03 AM

46. It sounds plausible but I think she's taking these cartwheeling flip flops because polling.

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:34 AM

38. Cred? Zip. Trust? Zip.

No more Clintons.

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:41 AM

43. Hillary is consistent in flip-flopping.

There was a poll here months back that asked if every person should vote or only those who were educated. If people educated themselves I don't see how Hillary would be a viable candidate. I can't even count how many times she has taken both sides of an issue, but it undercuts her credibility.

She's not a very good candidate and the DNC tried as hard as they could to clear a path for her because "It's her turn" or something. Absolutely ridiculous.

I'm glad Bernie Sanders is giving people a choice. I just hope they educate themselves to all of their options.

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:42 AM

44. ^^^^^ please people, can't you see the obvious?

 

Bernie is a career public servant.
Hillary is a career politician.

... and that difference is most of what your need to know ...

Bernie Sanders For President!


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Response to lastone (Reply #44)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 07:42 AM

60. You pretty much summed it up... the choice is clear.

Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 07:01 AM

50. Single payer doesn't equal universal care

France, Belgium, Denmark, The Netherlands, Finland, Sweden, and a whole host of countries have universal coverage without it being single payer. The fact the reporter doesn't know that doesn't make her a flip flopper it makes him an idiot.

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Response to dsc (Reply #50)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 07:11 AM

53. Maybe not so much an idiot, but a person caught in a conflation of terms

back 8 years ago universal and single-payer were pushed as a single thing.

This confusion still exists. In a campaign season where single payer is one candidates desire, it's a confusion that I expect is more likely to be exploited to reduce seeming between candidate differences than it is something to be explained.

I'd like to be wrong about that, we'll see.

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Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #53)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 08:09 AM

62. It is his job to know the difference

he is paid to know the difference. It isn't a sin for a non math teacher to not know some mathematical principle but it a sin for me not to know that principle.

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Response to dsc (Reply #62)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 08:33 AM

63. Has the discussion progressed to sinners are idiots?

Many things become conflated across discussions...usually unintentionally

I think universal healthcare and single payer lived together as a conflation long enough to create some lasting confusion.

Communication requires shared meanings behind terms...when things being discussed are muddled by common conflations what's to be expected but confusion?

It seems intent often finds itself begging for a word that matches a need, grabs the first one encountered from previous experience and a person ends up meaning what it said, but not saying what the words used actually mean.

At the same time, a person knowing the distinction and choosing it to muddle the difference is a word weasel.

Is weasling a sin? Does that make a weasling weasle an idiot?

Probably not. The weasling weasle seems more of a clever conflator.

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 07:06 AM

51. No No, she doesn't flip flop, she "evolves."

She used to not give two shits for gay rights but once she found out most of the country does, she evolved.

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 07:13 AM

54. Only if you are mistakenly thinking universal health care and single payer are the same thing

Universal health care does not need to be single payer (most universal health care systems aren't), and for that matter single payer wouldn't theoretically need to be universal.

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 07:37 AM

57. me too!

its so transparent they are not even trying anymore to pretend this hillary's platform

people can see this, and will vote accordingly

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 09:05 AM

67. After widespread ridicule on "never, ever"...

Hillary quickly evolves to the opposite position. Her followers give themselves whiplash pivoting to defend her new platform whilst claiming it's no different from the old one.

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Response to Ino (Reply #67)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:29 PM

73. This is short, sweet, and tooooooooooooooooo the point!

 

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:33 PM

74. Have you ever noticed that when she is going to flip-flop her voice goes up?

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Response to jillan (Reply #74)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 05:10 PM

80. Lol, yes.

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Response to CorporatistNation (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:40 PM

76. WTF!!! I am so confused!!? And conflicted!?

What is she saying? We can or we can't?

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Response to 7wo7rees (Reply #76)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 03:36 PM

77. So many don't remember what she said last week, was just for the purpose of bashing Sanders b4 Iowa.

 

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Response to ViseGrip (Reply #77)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 04:00 PM

78. keep kicking....

 

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