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Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:39 PM

What drives the extreme age division between Sanders and Clinton voters?

I think this may have a lot to do with it.

248 replies, 12841 views

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Reply What drives the extreme age division between Sanders and Clinton voters? (Original post)
Fumesucker Feb 2016 OP
hill2016 Feb 2016 #1
mainstreetonce Feb 2016 #2
peacebird Feb 2016 #4
hill2016 Feb 2016 #11
Fumesucker Feb 2016 #22
Jenny_92808 Feb 2016 #124
forest444 Feb 2016 #147
peacebird Feb 2016 #24
bettyellen Feb 2016 #42
Fumesucker Feb 2016 #61
bettyellen Feb 2016 #103
Jenny_92808 Feb 2016 #138
bettyellen Feb 2016 #146
yeoman6987 Feb 2016 #227
Fumesucker Feb 2016 #211
bettyellen Feb 2016 #225
Jenny_92808 Feb 2016 #129
bettyellen Feb 2016 #208
The Velveteen Ocelot Feb 2016 #36
Mike__M Feb 2016 #76
The Velveteen Ocelot Feb 2016 #82
Jenny_92808 Feb 2016 #111
whathehell Feb 2016 #177
kath Feb 2016 #6
hill2016 Feb 2016 #14
Armstead Feb 2016 #23
hill2016 Feb 2016 #27
Armstead Feb 2016 #35
DesertFlower Feb 2016 #45
AZ Progressive Feb 2016 #160
virtualobserver Feb 2016 #8
daleanime Feb 2016 #65
Fumesucker Feb 2016 #13
senz Feb 2016 #74
yawnmaster Feb 2016 #132
gyroscope Feb 2016 #152
yawnmaster Feb 2016 #155
gyroscope Feb 2016 #169
yawnmaster Feb 2016 #224
cali Feb 2016 #16
hill2016 Feb 2016 #33
Gregorian Feb 2016 #79
JonLeibowitz Feb 2016 #186
Gregorian Feb 2016 #192
Armstead Feb 2016 #19
JPnoodleman Feb 2016 #40
hill2016 Feb 2016 #70
JPnoodleman Feb 2016 #80
hill2016 Feb 2016 #83
jeff47 Feb 2016 #87
JPnoodleman Feb 2016 #90
d_legendary1 Feb 2016 #190
wildeyed Feb 2016 #46
Duckhunter935 Feb 2016 #72
wildeyed Feb 2016 #92
Duckhunter935 Feb 2016 #95
daleanime Feb 2016 #62
senz Feb 2016 #68
Duckhunter935 Feb 2016 #69
PowerToThePeople Feb 2016 #85
blackspade Feb 2016 #101
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frylock Feb 2016 #106
Odin2005 Feb 2016 #109
hill2016 Feb 2016 #176
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winter is coming Feb 2016 #9
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Fumesucker Feb 2016 #213
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wildeyed Feb 2016 #222
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senz Feb 2016 #194
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bettyellen Feb 2016 #209
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Fumesucker Feb 2016 #71
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frylock Feb 2016 #118
DonCoquixote Feb 2016 #201
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frylock Feb 2016 #125
bettyellen Feb 2016 #105
jeff47 Feb 2016 #113
cui bono Feb 2016 #205
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geek tragedy Feb 2016 #115
jeff47 Feb 2016 #119
geek tragedy Feb 2016 #122
jeff47 Feb 2016 #136
geek tragedy Feb 2016 #140
jeff47 Feb 2016 #145
geek tragedy Feb 2016 #167
Fearless Feb 2016 #128
geek tragedy Feb 2016 #131
Fearless Feb 2016 #133
geek tragedy Feb 2016 #137
Fearless Feb 2016 #139
geek tragedy Feb 2016 #142
Fearless Feb 2016 #148
geek tragedy Feb 2016 #156
Fearless Feb 2016 #158
geek tragedy Feb 2016 #165
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yawnmaster Feb 2016 #134
Kall Feb 2016 #154
geek tragedy Feb 2016 #162
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beachbumbob Feb 2016 #12
JPnoodleman Feb 2016 #15
ElliotCarver Feb 2016 #20
Fumesucker Feb 2016 #26
musiclawyer Feb 2016 #38
Fumesucker Feb 2016 #58
wildeyed Feb 2016 #223
orpupilofnature57 Feb 2016 #64
Motown_Johnny Feb 2016 #21
bunnies Feb 2016 #47
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kcjohn1 Feb 2016 #31
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geek tragedy Feb 2016 #97
wildeyed Feb 2016 #60
JimDandy Feb 2016 #86
Lorien Feb 2016 #32
DemocraticWing Feb 2016 #37
Dems to Win Feb 2016 #44
msongs Feb 2016 #51
hifiguy Feb 2016 #55
Kumbricia Feb 2016 #191
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jalan48 Feb 2016 #56
orpupilofnature57 Feb 2016 #57
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marybourg Feb 2016 #94
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liberal_at_heart Feb 2016 #149
Fumesucker Feb 2016 #214
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Romulox Feb 2016 #239

Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:41 PM

1. not surprisingly

 

people who don't have money want people who have money to pay for their "stuff "whatever stuff is)

people who have the money don't want to pay for the stuff

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:43 PM

2. Sanders promised

free college and help with loans

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:43 PM

4. Actually I think it is more that people in the 1% don't want to pay their fair share of taxes

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Response to peacebird (Reply #4)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:46 PM

11. it's not a 1% thing

 

looking at the graph it should be at least the top 80%.

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #11)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:51 PM

22. That would be this graph, the numbers of people start tapering off at advanced ages

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #22)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:20 PM

124. I like graphs and want to understand them

 

"the numbers of people start tapering off at advanced ages"

...tapering off from what!

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Response to Jenny_92808 (Reply #124)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:44 PM

147. Meaning that the number of Americans older than 60 or so is substantially smaller than those younger

That has to do primarily with mortality, which of course increases after 60. But it also has to with the notable increase in births during the 1950s. That is, the number of people in their late 50s and early 60s would be a lot greater than the number of people in their 70s (born around 1940) even if not a single one had died (plus, there'd be a lot of grateful grandkids).

The two factors combined to create a situation in which the number of people, by 5-year age groups, begin a pronounced decline at the 60-64 age group. Up to the 55-59 group, you'll notice, the number of Americans in each age group is roughly the same (11 million in each gender).

This, by the way, is often pointed to as the principal reason for the alleged "funding crisis" Social Security is said to be entering. It's nonsense, of course, because the number of people in each of the younger 5-year age groups is also similar to the number of people in the 5-year group nearing retirement. Social Security would be in real trouble if our population pyramid looked like this:



That's a lot of older people nearing retirement, compared to the number of younger, working-age people. The solution? Lifting the cap on taxable income!

Hope this helped!

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #11)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:51 PM

24. Except that wages have been stagnant since the recession, & that has younger voters in Sanders camp

We now have two decades of stagnant wage growth.

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Response to peacebird (Reply #24)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:09 PM

42. wages have been stagnant for a good thirty years.

 

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #42)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:19 PM

61. And the breaking point is here...

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #61)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:02 PM

103. but this now or never stuff betrays a disinterest in long term advocacy....

 

honestly when people say voters are unsophisticated, I'm thinking they are just greedy or lazy. I am wary that any movement will last past Bernie in the primaries. Let alone be there in 2 1/2 years, and 2 after that.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #103)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:37 PM

138. I think that there is great

 

hope for the future and the majority of the youth are more enlightened and will move things in the correct (avoiding the word right) direction. I am not religious, but I am spiritual (I do not believe in an old gray haired man with a p.e.n.i.s sitting on a throne in the sky). As the youth replaces the uninformed/misguided older people, the numbers for the progressives will grow and grow and grow. Example: The youth today, on the most part, couldn't care less if their friends are gay or have a certain ethnicity, if they are divorced, etc......YAY! Suggestion: Read Edgar Cayce's books.

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Response to Jenny_92808 (Reply #138)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:42 PM

146. See I'm in a very liberal area and honestly I see this flipped-

 

Lots of the older people are very liberal -always have been and lots of the under 30's are not interested in politics so much. I fear like all the generations before them they won't reliably vote till they are much older. It's hard when you see such cynicism in the very young.

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Response to Jenny_92808 (Reply #138)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 02:28 PM

227. I don't know the baby boomers were very liberal in their youth

 

A good number are republican today. Nothing is guaranteed. We have no idea what the youth will vote for in 30 years or more.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #103)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 04:02 AM

211. Maybe Bernie won't shut down his people organization after he gets elected like Obama shut down OFA

Funny, I can't find that "Relax I got this" Obama poster that was so popular some years ago, I was going to post it but it's just gone.







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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #211)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 02:23 PM

225. It would be nice to see young people have a sustained interest, but I feel like it begins and

 

ends with Bernie with a lot of people. Like Bernie against the world, so if he doesn't make it, the game is over for them. To me it's a lifelong thing, not one contest. But I am odd, LOL.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #42)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:23 PM

129. I think you make

 

a very important point bettyellen.

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Response to Jenny_92808 (Reply #129)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:29 AM

208. It's rough to hear people say it's just happening now...

 

Because that's not nearly the truth. Wages stalled a long time ago, and opportunities down too. This has been since Regan, not Bush 2. I wince when I hear people who think this is new.

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Response to peacebird (Reply #4)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:00 PM

36. Some studies have shown that the richer people get,

the stingier and meaner they get.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #36)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:33 PM

76. So the result of

taking hundreds of thousands in speaking fees would be . . .

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Response to Mike__M (Reply #76)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:40 PM

82. Not all rich people are stingy and mean.

But the researchers have identified a trend in that direction. http://nymag.com/news/features/money-brain-2012-7/

"The rich are more likely to prioritize their own self-interests above the interests of other people," Piff told New York magazine. "It makes them more likely to exhibit characteristic that we would stereotypically associate, with, say, assholes."

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Response to peacebird (Reply #4)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:11 PM

111. You are absolutely correct

 

peacebird. Thank you for your post.

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Response to peacebird (Reply #4)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:06 PM

177. That is exactly what it is, peacebird

They currently pay the lowest rate in sixty years and they want to pay less.

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:44 PM

6. Wow. That answer sounds totally like a Republican talking.

Jeebus.

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Response to kath (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:47 PM

14. got a better explanation

 

that fits with the graph?

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #14)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:51 PM

23. It IS possible to have both a low income and also have larger values and ideals

 

Amazing But True

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Response to Armstead (Reply #23)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:55 PM

27. so why are all the values and ideals

 

lacking in the older generations?

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #27)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:00 PM

35. They aren't lacking

 

Some old people equate Clinton with idealism (for reasons I don't agree with, but I won't deny it is a form of idealism).

And some of us identify with Bernie style idealism. (To save myself from rewriting it, I'll plug my OP threads threads Old Farts for Bernie and Why Berne Resonates with some older Viters here on DU the last couple of days. )

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511120660

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511107202

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #27)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:10 PM

45. i beg your pardon. i'm 74 and

i have great values. i've been lower middle class, middle class and upper middle class. more than 10% of my income goes to charity.

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Response to kath (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:53 PM

160. A lot of DINOs in the party

Conservatives have no place in the party.

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:45 PM

8. yes, young people are horrible people

 

and they can't meet her $2700 minimum donation

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Response to virtualobserver (Reply #8)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:23 PM

65. +1

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:47 PM

13. 63% of Americans Can't Afford $500 Car Repair or $1,000 Emergency Room Visit

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/63-of-americans-cant-afford-500-car-repair-or-1000-emergency-room-visit-300200097.html

Only 37% of U.S. adults have enough savings to pay for these unexpected expenses. 23% would reduce their spending on other things to make ends meet, 15% would use credit cards and another 15% would borrow from family or friends.


Better hope the 63% don't vote.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #13)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:30 PM

74. Sickening. Bernie should include it in his stump speech.

 

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #13)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:29 PM

132. that doesn't mean they are poor, necessarily. It means they aren't saving...

Many are spending their money eating out or on higher cost cable, etc.
In other words, their priorities don't include saving for car repairs.

"even 46% of the highest-income households ($75,000+ per year) and 52% of college graduates lack enough savings to cover a $500 car repair"

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Response to yawnmaster (Reply #132)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:49 PM

152. If you're working long hours or multiple jobs to make ends meet

 


you don't have time to cook at home, and have to eat out a lot.

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Response to gyroscope (Reply #152)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:51 PM

155. That's not the impression I get from the article. Saving is not a priority. eom

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Response to yawnmaster (Reply #155)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:58 PM

169. Its not easy to save when you're on a modest income

 

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Response to gyroscope (Reply #169)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:36 PM

224. read the article. Not all those are on a modest income. Many are at the high income level...

"even 46% of the highest-income households ($75,000+ per year) and 52% of college graduates lack enough savings to cover a $500 car repair"

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:48 PM

16. Could you regurgitate republican talking points

 

any more fulsomely? It is truly disturbing to see that ugly shit posted here. I expect nothing more from you, hill.

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Response to cali (Reply #16)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:58 PM

33. got a better explanation

 

why richer older liberals support Clinton and poorer younger liberals don't?

Is it about guns? POC issues? Immigrant issues?

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #33)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:36 PM

79. Not to butt in, but...I'm not poor; I'm not young; but I get a kick out of helping improve society.

Clearly people are hurting in this configuration that we have with taxes, and whatnot. People don't have the dignity to but just show up at the ER. And we wonder why there's gun violence. But I digress. I actually feel glee when giving and helping. This is the joy I see emanating from people like Bernie Sanders, to name only one. Us. We. We're together in this whether we like it or not, so we might as well make it beautiful.

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Response to Gregorian (Reply #79)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:25 PM

186. +1. Exactly. n/t

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #33)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:51 PM

192. Lots of reasons. A rainbow. Just like any candidate.

I think that's one of the most important aspects of this process. That's what some use in order to change minds of voters. It can be desire for building something better, or hoping that taxes don't change enough to impact one's life too much. It could be identifying, like some of those who wanted a beer with Bush. Or I believe misguided, when it comes to Trump. And I ask myself if what I'm doing makes sense. I like to start from the point of democratic principles. It seems that's the fight we've been in as a country.

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:49 PM

19. I agree, the GOP is the best party

 

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:06 PM

40. Ah, those damn dirty millennial "TAKERS" 47% worthless leaches... Ah Vintage Romney /nt

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Response to JPnoodleman (Reply #40)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:27 PM

70. do you have a better explanation

 

why richer liberals vote Clinton and poorer liberals don't?

Sure it might not be causative but the correlation seems high.

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #70)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:37 PM

80. No, but it is nice that the true stances of Hillary and her Cohort. Ol' Mitt Romney was right?

The glorious makers, the veritable Atlas' holding the world upon their infinitely superior shoulders, being attacked upon and put upon by the inferiors. Ah, the Ubermench, why hopefully Hillary can be a right good John Galt and rescue you lot from those dirty, wretched, and wholly inferior and intolerable beasts.

*sagenod*

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Response to JPnoodleman (Reply #80)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:42 PM

83. I don't get your point

 

why do you think richer liberals support Clinton and poorer ones support Bernie?

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #83)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:45 PM

87. That isn't surprising. (nt)

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #83)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:48 PM

90. I am not certain I can be more transparent,

Perhaps look at why the wealthy over all tend to like books like Atlas Shrugged, Randianism, or in general any philosophy that says their large bank account is a result of their general superiority and thus they've earned every penny and owe nothing to anyone else.

Why do the Koch's support the GOP? Why is Ayn Rand the darling of the Right?!

EDIT: Perhaps richer liberals have lost the plot and are essentially Randian Conservatives and Plutocrats were it suites them but likes the nice and easy "left wing," causes that can be solved with Hashtag campaigns and sleek business friendly issues.

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #83)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:43 PM

190. You mean like George Soros?

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:11 PM

46. Nope.

I want to pay for better education and healthcare. I just don't think Sanders' plan will work. And I don't believe he has the political skill to get much passed if he is elected. I actually think Clinton will be better at those things.

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Response to wildeyed (Reply #46)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:29 PM

72. sorry but if it is Hillary

 

You have not seen the stonewalling and gridlock.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #72)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:52 PM

92. OMG, buy a clue.

I am ON YOUR TEAM in this thread and you are going to beef with me about this bullshit? This is why Sanders cannot win in a microcosm.....

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Response to wildeyed (Reply #92)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:54 PM

95. I know

 

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:21 PM

62. Are you really happy here?

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:26 PM

68. Republicans don't want to share. Democrats do want to share.

 

That's why I joined the Democratic Party as soon as I was old enough to vote: Democrats were clearly the better people.

Is it no longer true?

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:27 PM

69. yep I do not to pay for your kids school

 

No police or fire either. Pay for your own roads, I do not want to pay for others.

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:44 PM

85. Rush Limpballs, is that you?

 

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:02 PM

101. Really?

If by "stuff" you mean an existence that doesn't involve fear, privation, and hopelessness?
Then yeah.
Christ on a crutch some of you guys are tone deaf to the plight of millions.

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:04 PM

104. Truthfully, I think it is more than older folks not wanting to pay. I think they've known Clinton

longer than most younger folks have been alive. I think they remember when they thought we had all the answers and detested the Establishment. I think older folks are a little wiser -- at least Democrats. The issues for older folks are a lot wider than what Sanders is selling, although he has tried to expand his stump speeches.

We've also seen what happens when you try to push through big legislation like healthcare reform -- saw it in 1994 and 2009. Been a supporter of universal healthcare since at least 1980s after working for a state Medicaid agency. At this point with this Congress, I believe we are better off not fighting the big fight again, but improving the ACA with addition of a public option, bigger subsidies, reduced out-of-pocket costs. If you accept 58% of Americans are for single payer, then there are 42% who don't buy into it and want more choice even if it costs them more. I also think a chunk of the 58% will still gripe about single payer when they find it won't be as cheap as they believe, at least for decades. Should have gone to universal healthcare in 1994, most of the issues would be worked out now and most people would be in government plans.

We've also lived through McGovern, Mondale, Dukakis landslides. The stakes are probably higher now, than then.

I'm perfectly willing to pay a little more to help younger folks. The fact is, they are the ones who will be paying our Social Security. And they do have some gripes, like the cost of education. I know jobs are tough, but it was tough back then too, especially if you were likely to get drafted.

I honestly believe Clinton will get more done than Sanders in today's right wing atmosphere and has a better chance to be elected. If youngsters can't get excited about avoiding a Republican administration, that's a problem they are going to have to learn for themselves unfortunately. But if it turns out Sanders is the nominee, I'm on board because the alternative is darn sure scary. I hope young people feel the same about Clinton.

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:05 PM

106. TAX AND SPEND!!1

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:08 PM

109. What kind of Republican shit is this???

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #109)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:06 PM

176. do you have

 

a better explanation for the OP's graph?

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #176)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 09:15 AM

218. The right-wing Neo-Liberal BS of the last 35 years disproportionally hurt...

...Younger people, while older people go "I got mine, FUCK YOU" and then rant about how us young people are causing the world to go to hell.

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:13 PM

116. Are you sure

 

you are not a republican? .....I got mine, to heck with the regular people......hurry, hurry, hurry, pull up the ladder so nobody else can get on board.

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Response to Jenny_92808 (Reply #116)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:06 PM

178. do you have a better explanation

 

for the OP's graph?

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:21 PM

127. Actually we'd just like what we've paid for, thanks.

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:47 PM

150. And that's unpatriotic

That attitude should be labeled as such, and the people who express that attitude should be shamed repeatedly until they have to hide under rocks like the bigots.

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:31 PM

187. "stuff"

The parents of the baby boomers, the ones with more assets now, were happy to give them "stuff" - particularly investment by the government in higher education so tuition wasn't sky high and people could reasonably work their way through. They also invested in primary schools and civil infrastructure.

Baby boomers, after benefiting from this, said: Cut government and we'll take the tax cuts and our kids and grandkids can pay the higher tuition with loans that they spend half their lives paying back (while we, meanwhile, outsource good-paying jobs and replace them with poorly paid service-sector work and refuse to raise the minimum wage)


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Response to hill2016 (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 12:57 AM

204. Which number on the Republican Talking Point list is that?

#1 or #2? I keep forgetting.

.

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 07:41 AM

216. Such an odd statement reveals your age and detachment. 50 years ago..,

 

it was a given that the government was going to pay the bulk, or close to all of, your tuition. Today, it's understood that you'll be an indentured servant to Wall Street banksters.

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 02:24 PM

226. Most in their 40's already paid off the college loans and think oh know I thought I was done.

 

Just a thought.

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 02:30 PM

228. Experience and realism vs idealism and gullibility.

Sanders is selling moonshine and rainbows.

Old people are generally more able to see through that sort of thing than younger ones.

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Response to hill2016 (Reply #1)


Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:43 PM

3. May be, but i think other than $$$ are in play

Young people are open to change in many ways,

older people are far more afraid of it, and prefer

the status quo.

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Response to sadoldgirl (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:45 PM

9. Older people are more likely to still be in the bubble and not understand

that things are not what they were when they were young.

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Response to winter is coming (Reply #9)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:55 PM

30. My friend and political sparring partner is 55.

 

He still gets his primary political information from the Sunday pundit talk shows, and sneers at Internet political thought.

The network/cable punditry are mouthpieces for the status quo, so it colors his political ideology. If he sees it on TV it's true; if he reads it on the Internet it's subjective fluff. His view are shaped accordingly.

Young people tend to go the other way.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #30)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:16 PM

54. But Sanders is old.

If the olds are so dumb, why do you guys like him so much?

And where do you get your political info from, primarily? Curious to know.

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Response to wildeyed (Reply #54)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 04:08 AM

213. DU runs pretty old too, just because olds are clueless on average does not mean we all are

I have grandchildren old enough to vote and I know the world they are living in isn't their grandfather's world by a long shot.


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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #213)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 09:39 AM

219. Yes, of course.

That is why I am curious when people make statements like that. And REALLY interested in hearing from the actual poster who made the comment I replied to as to what the thinking is there.

I am younger than you and the "sparring" partner, but not a millennial. Technically Gen X I guess..... I run a business that employs a huge number of millennials. It is true that they don't watch TV, but neither do I. And I end up doing all the social networking because no one else can figure out how Twitter works. I'm going to have to master f'ing Snapchat next, which I hate...... So anyway, my personal experience is very different than the OPs. I guess I hate generalizations like that. Makes me mad when people do it about young voters too.

And the goddamn honest truth of the matter is that in the Democratic Big Tent, ALL the interest groups and demographics are important. So slicing and dicing and making pejorative statements about the olds or youngs who are on the same team seems like a silly waste. I wish people would use better judgement.


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Response to wildeyed (Reply #219)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 10:36 AM

220. I'm the goto IT guy for my crowd, some of whom are twenty and thirty years younger

Most people of any age don't have brilliant computer skills on the nitty gritty level, my kids and grandkids are better at the social networking thing than I am but I understand the actual computer systems better than any of them. I have the deep knowledge that comes from trying to understand the systems since the early 80's when I got my first computer.

If the Democratic party wishes to remain a viable organization into the future it won't shut out young voters like I think is about to happen in order to get Clinton elected.

It has been and is going to be an interesting election season.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #220)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 12:34 PM

222. I don't think anyone is really interested in shutting

out young voters. They are an important part of the coalition and the future of the party. Honestly? ANY candidate who can convince them to participate REGULARLY (every year, people, there is an election every year)in the democratic process is doing good work.

They were integral to Obama's victory, but then left us all high and dry in 2010 and 2014. And those losses account for a great deal of the suck that they blame on Clinton and "The Party", IMO. So maybe some of the bitterness from more establishment Dems comes from that. I dunno for sure, but that is a possibility.

And they do need to understand that they are just one small part of a big coalition. Olds, more conservative Dems, Blacks and the growing Latino and immigrant groups are just as important. That is the MATH part that I am always screaming about. No one cares who wins the "most progressive" award if they can't win an election and then pass some legislation. And that requires coalition building.

But the online supporters on both sides can be pretty dumb. Plenty of young Sanders supporters yelling slurs at "older" females. It is pretty hilarious what they have called me. I suspect they don't know who Ruth Bader Ginsburg is and think that is me? I dunno. I have been called "old-ass" and accused of not understanding how the internet works. Lucky I have a sense of humor.....

On the other side, I see Clinton supporters discounting the young voters in ways that I don't think are fair.

And both sides treating the AA vote as an object in their partisan wars. Sigh..... I'm going to ask the admins for a special primary edition smilie of the circular firing squad.....

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Response to wildeyed (Reply #222)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 02:39 PM

230. "but then left us all high and dry in 2010 and 2014"

And the question is, why? We know Democrats tend to vote in lesser numbers overall during non-Presidential years, so that might be one factor. But for the youth in general I think it was due to the Democrats actually delivering on the Hope & Change Obama ran on.

By 2010, the sort of large Change of Hope & Change fame had not materialized as Obama for some reason thought he could compromise with Republicans. In 2014, Democrats seemed intent on running candidates that tried their hardest to be indistinguishable from Republicans. In neither case was the youth vote inspired or energized.

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Response to LondonReign2 (Reply #230)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 02:55 PM

233. Yep.

Things don't change overnight. But also, maybe you were not paying attention.

Because the Supreme Court caused a bunch of the bullshit and there is nothing Obama or anyone could do about that. We just have to wait for that MF Scalia and a few of his cohort to die and hope we have a Dem in office when that happens before THAT changes.

We got ACA passed after a huge throw down with the GOP who were more horrible and obstructionist than most of us expected. The Tea Party was a new thing then. No one really understood what we were up against at first. But we are way better at fighting them now.

We had some AMAZING campaign finance laws passed in my state. Identical to much of what Sanders talks about. In a purple state with "DINO" Dems at the helm, no less.

And then y'all took your ball and went home because either you were too bored to show up or mad about a thing. And the GOP KILLED all that good legislation and we couldn't make the states properly implement the ACA, so that is mostly still screwed up. But still salvageable.

And now you think it is Obama's fault? WTF? If you don't show up to do the most basic thing which is voting, you can't complain. And if you don't show up, NO ONE in your political coalition takes you seriously as an ally and your issues may not get addressed to your satisfaction. It is not OUR job to provide candidates who are sufficiently interesting and fun to keep you engaged. And frankly, finding them is harder than you seem to think.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:43 PM

5. Pragmatism. Wisdom. Experience.

 

Paying high middle class taxes with no desire to pay any more. Take your pick. The middle class need wage hikes not tax hikes.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:48 PM

17. Gimme more? You know, sharing what you have actually makes one happier. nt

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:48 PM

18. wisdom and experience?

The same wisdom and experienced used to flush down many FDR era reforms, and letting the Clinton/Bush era be known for hard hippie punching and welfare mother demonizing, none of which you repented from?

It is so funny that the generation that said "don't trust anyone over 30" have become exactly the people who are hard to trust, especially as at least their elders gave them a decent economy to work with, while these folk have already spent the grandchioldren's inheritance, much less those of any of we Gen Xers.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #18)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:55 PM

29. I'm part of that generation



To be fair it was only a minority of my generation who rebelled, most of us just went along with the system as it existed and played the game.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #29)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:00 PM

34. I know there are those still fighting the good fight

and I really admire you for it, but

Bill defined where he stood the day he made fun of Jerry Brown:



Just another hippie punching jerk.


PS, this was 1992: isn't it sad that in 20 years, we still have to swallow the idea that Bill and Hill can do whatever the hell they want to, because they are Bill and Hill? That scandal could have been ripped from a 2016 headline. Hey Hillary, if Bill can give up the Cigars and Big Macs, why can't you give up this habit of doing clandestine quasi/outright illegal crap, and then hiding behind Bill?

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #34)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 12:11 AM

194. Bill really does look like a smartass jerk there. So does the audience.

 

Jerry Brown would have made a far better president than Bill Clinton. And we would never have had to even think about Hillary Clinton as a possible president.

I voted for Bill. After 8 years of Reagan and 4 of Bush the elder, Bill Clinton, a Democrat, seemed such a breath of fresh air. I'd only known of Brown as California's "Governor Moonbeam." Slogans and caricatures just make people stupid. Repartee and the quick comeback are not leadership qualities.



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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:31 PM

75. how are going to pay for Hillary's

 

Wars?

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:53 PM

93. or Alzheimers.

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Response to frustrated_lefty (Reply #93)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:29 AM

209. Not funny

 

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:01 PM

173. You must think boomers are stupid. my middle class taxes would go up $100/year. my healthcare

 

expenses would go down $10,000/year. Morons at freeperville and in the hrc group probably can't get their brains around this, but some of us are still lucid.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #5)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 02:41 PM

231. Was it Hillary's Wisdom or Experience that lead her to vote on Iraq?

Was it Pragmatism that caused her to urge others to also vote for Bush's war?

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:44 PM

7. Oooh! ooh! Let me guess. "Misogyny and racism"

And something to do with volvos and a "bro" prefix or suffix.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:45 PM

10. Yes, young people feel like they have nothing to lose.

 

Heaven forbid they, ya know, work to build up their household wealth. Like their parents and grandparents did. Everything should just be handed to them.

"Your parents should pay for it" is a very attractive theme for young voters.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #10)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:51 PM

25. hahahaha

the milennials did not have grandpa pay for college like he did for their dad. Working to build wealth is not the same in an economy that has a lot less wealth to begin with, because a group of people that cannot fill a Movie theater keep most of it. With every day, it become so hard to believe Hillary's generation was the one that wanted social change, all they wanted was the keys to the family car, which they crashed.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #25)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:05 PM

39. Only 10% of boomers completed 4 year degrees in their 20's.

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #39)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:08 PM

41. and they had a better economy, period

where those degrees could get an actual JOB.

The solace I get from Hillary's ascent will be the whining and scream of the people who thought they were her friends, as they get crushed under that bus.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #41)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:09 PM

43. So you wish harm to everyone who votes for her in the primary.

 

Pretty toxic mindset.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #43)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:12 PM

48. I do not need to wish it

Hell, i will not be able to stop it, because by the time the bus rolls over many, we will be squashed roadkill, and I do not wish ill on all, just the most vocal people who like the demonize the young and who act so much like the mean nasty conservatives.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #48)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:13 PM

50. So Hillary is like some rightwing deity with the power

 

to destroy hope itself. Gotcha.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #50)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:28 PM

71. Better ideas will NEVER EVER COME TO PASS! YEAARRGHH!

Her best strategy now is to suppress the under 45 vote as hard as she can.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #71)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:30 PM

73. Clap louder for Tinkerbell! nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #73)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:33 PM

77. OK

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #77)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:38 PM

81. That was the "new kind of politics" guy who said

 

he would bring Democrats and Republicans together.

Hope in one hand, shit in the other, see which fills up first.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #81)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:00 PM

100. Is that a slam on Obama?

Because I understand that's not a good political move for Democrats.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #100)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:02 PM

102. The original premise for his campaign was disproven.

 

He became much more effective when he abandoned it.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #102)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:14 PM

118. Abandoned it? He never implemented it.

It was a slick marketing campaign. Have a Barack and a Smile do-do-do-dooo-do.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #77)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 12:51 AM

201. dont bring that out Fume

don't you know that three months in, we are going to have to read obligatory stuff about how hope was bullshit and we shoulda voted Hillary in 2008, so that 2020 will be cleared for Debbie. Krugman is already pissing on the same Obama legacy that the AA voiters want to defend, that Hillary pretends to defend while her pundit ninjas like Joan Walsh and Krugman are busy making sure Obama barely gets a library, much less the Monument that Bill Clinton would never deserve.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #73)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 12:48 AM

200. oh yes

coming from the person supporting a candidate that killed FDR policies that were laughed at, before they became successes (like Glass Steagall.) How does it feel to know that Hillary is saving the right wing from itself, ensuring that anti government, pro plundering thought stays alive even though it's champions on the right still have to drag religion into it to save themselves?

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #200)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 12:51 AM

202. I am not a Hillary supporter. She's a war hawk whose

 

interest in economic populism is largely driven by the political cycle. But like any national Democratic pol she is susceptible to pressure from her left.

What saves the right from itself is the fact that our base turns out only in presidential years and is (from an electoral point of view) inefficiently concentrated in urban areas.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #202)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 12:55 AM

203. inefficiently concentrated in urban areas.

OH God, I am so tempted to show this to the AA group so that they can tell me if I just read what I did.

and pray tell, how is she going to get pressure from her left when way back in 2015, the mere notion of putting any pressure to lean left was branded sexism bigotry ratfucking or any number of words that were ABUSED. Frankly, what pressure to go leftward is there without Sanders? After super tuesday Mark Penn and Lynn Rothschild might as well write her daily do to list.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #71)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 12:45 AM

199. fume

Thank you for responding far far better than I could

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #43)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:20 PM

125. Nice dodge.

$40,000 adjusted right out of high school.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #41)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:04 PM

105. Oh jeez, that is a very ugly thing to say.

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #39)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:11 PM

113. And boomer high-school graduates got jobs starting at inflation-adjusted $40k/year (nt)

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #39)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:00 AM

205. I work with a millennial who is $100,000 in debt for having gone to college.

Not even in her 30s yet.

Is that what you mean by millennials wanting someone to just give them something?

.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #10)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:09 PM

110. Clearly, I should have organized my third grade class to stop the Greenspan commission. (nt)

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #110)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:12 PM

115. A start would be to convince white milennials to not vote

 

Republican.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #115)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:14 PM

119. Already done.

http://www.politico.com/story/2012/11/study-youth-vote-was-decisive-083510

Now, tell me how electing Reagan when I was 6 was totally my fault.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #119)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:20 PM

122. Nope. 51% of white Milennials voted for Romney.

 

http://www.people-press.org/2012/11/26/young-voters-supported-obama-less-but-may-have-mattered-more/

The margin was ALL from milennials of color.

P.S. You are, as am I, Gen-X not millennial.

You're not young unless you were born after Reagan's re-election. Scary, huh?





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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #122)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:34 PM

136. And far more white Boomers voted for Romney.

So yes, it is actually "already done".

P.S. You are, as am I, Gen-X not millennial.

You're not young unless you were born after Reagan's re-election. Scary, huh?

I assure you, the Boomers still consider us young.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #136)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:38 PM

140. I'm happy to have anyone consider me young.

 

I'm usually the oldest person in the restaurant when we go out to eat.

Unless some milennials brought their parents.


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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #140)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:42 PM

145. I grew a beard. My parents are displeased.

Not because of their dislike of facial hair, but all the white in their youngest kid's beard.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #145)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:56 PM

167. My claim to youth ended when my pastimes became

 

gardening and birding.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #10)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:22 PM

128. Your ageism is staggering.

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Response to Fearless (Reply #128)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:26 PM

131. I'm critiquing a mindset.

 

I was young and broke once. I paid off very large student loans that I signed up for. I didn't blame my mom and dad.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #131)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:29 PM

133. You are categorizing youth as a whole, it is ageism.

Youth is not lazy. Youth deserves to be paid equally for equall work.

How is it today we work an average of more than 40hrs a week, have no pension, no employer healthcare, no vacation time, and we are the ones being called lazy??

We demand fairness.

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Response to Fearless (Reply #133)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:36 PM

137. Do all of those conditions apply to all milennials?

 

Younger people get crappier, lower-paying jobs than do people with more experience. It's always been that way.

Good jobs aren't just given away.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #137)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:37 PM

139. Equal pay for equal work.

Regardless of age.

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Response to Fearless (Reply #139)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:39 PM

142. Inexperienced people don't do the same work as

 

those with more job experience.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #142)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:45 PM

148. Experienced lousy employees are still lousy employees

Equal pay for equal work.

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Response to Fearless (Reply #148)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:51 PM

156. How do you feel about labor unions? nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #156)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:52 PM

158. I believe unequivocally in the right to form and maintain unions.

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Response to Fearless (Reply #158)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:56 PM

165. How about union pay scales and rules re: seniority? nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #165)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:58 PM

170. Again, I believe in equal pay for equal work.

Why is this a difficult concept?

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Response to Fearless (Reply #170)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:01 PM

172. work is rarely equal if the experience levels are different nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #172)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:03 PM

174. Do you believe a person should be paid more

Simply because of age of all other factors... skill for instance... Are equal?

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Response to Fearless (Reply #174)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:05 PM

175. Age? No. Experience and acquired skill? Yes. nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #175)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:14 PM

181. Age was the argument we are having and you agree with me.

The other poster either doesn't or needs to clarify.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #10)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:30 PM

134. Belief in a Utopia fades as one ages. eom

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #10)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:51 PM

154. Young people aren't living in the same economy

that their parents and grandparents did. And being lectured by people who grew up with strong unions, pre-globalization, regular wage gains, and where an education was the ticket to a steady job rather than the hope for one, is just the height of condescension.

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Response to Kall (Reply #154)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:55 PM

162. That was the economy that white men--and only white men--enjoyed up until

 

the 1970s and thereafter nobody enjoyed it.

People act like everyone over 30 was just handed everything.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #162)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:56 PM

166. Oh brother

Goodnight.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:47 PM

12. Youthful idealism....vs experience

 

I take experience eveytime....we VOTE....all the time..not just when it fancies us

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:47 PM

15. A somewhat nihilistic generation is willing to dream?

Look, I hold no illusions that the likely still GOP held congress would allow much of any Sanders policy through but its the policy I support.

> A National Health Service
> Infrastructure spending
> Getting the college debt crisis under control
> Shift against privatized Prisons and Justice.
> A guy who won't misuse our army.
> No to TTP
> A Labor oriented leader.

These are important issues, and millennials are facing the Grimdark reality of knowing WE will be taxed, burdened worked, and destroyed by an economy unlikely to recover to any historical level of strength, whom may be too debt ridden to ever have children, and honestly for whom death is about as productive as anything else we might hope to accomplish....

And with this sort of morbid thoughts we have Hillary and our illustrious Elders whom are somewhat responsible for our permanent crisis telling us "Yes you are worthless, stupid and F' off!" * shrug * Sanders is a glimmer of hope, however futile it might actually be.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:49 PM

20. News from Internet vs. news from MSM

 

Older wealthy Dems read the NYT religiously and watch MSNBC while they cook dinner. They haven't watched the debates live because they're ludicrously timed.

Just a hunch

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Response to ElliotCarver (Reply #20)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:53 PM

26. Totebaggers

Basically defined as people who think they are liberal because they listen to NPR.

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Response to ElliotCarver (Reply #20)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:05 PM

38. The graph is meaningless

The schism is a function of how news and information is consumed, not income. Virtually no one under 35 has a TV ( other than as a computer monitor) much less watches cable news or network news. Youngsters also don't trust MSM newspapers
You know the Young Turks was seen by more viewers than most cable news outlets!
MSM is dead man walking because it's propaganda. It's neither fair, balanced, accurate, nor complete. MSM talking heads live in a bubble and what most have to say is inaccurate or just wrong. There are HRC supporters who watch Chris Matthews like he's a trusted source. Meanwhile Twitter regularly hands Matthews his head every day, like every broadcast, for having his head up the establishments' ass. MSM pushes HRC, youngsters look for themselves and say, yikes, no thanks. We don't want a DINO.

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Response to musiclawyer (Reply #38)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:18 PM

58. Eh, I'm of SS age and I don't have a TV, find it painful to watch and have for a while

Getting weaned from the M$M helps your perspective a lot.

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Response to musiclawyer (Reply #38)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 12:57 PM

223. Wait, you are arguing

that news you get from Twitter is fair and accurate?

There is no such thing as "fair and accurate" news source. There is only critical thinking skills and the ability to synthesize information from a variety of sources.

The problem is, many people, of all ages, just read and post the news sources that say the things they like.

And I have been watching political debates on my laptop and talking hashtag smack on Twitter since before many of the Sanders supporters were knee-hight to a grasshopper. This is not actually a new thing for seasoned political junkies. 2012 GOP debates were EPIC

Now get off my lawn :shakescane:

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Response to ElliotCarver (Reply #20)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:23 PM

64. + 1000000000000 !!!!!!!!!!!

 

The need to be excepted is as important to older people as young, and young people have sold -out less, and aren't as taken to intimidation from TPTB .

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:50 PM

21. Optimism v Pessimism n/t

 

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Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #21)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:11 PM

47. ^^^ yep ^^^ nt

 

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:55 PM

28. Maybe the health of the planet should be included

 

They are the ones who will not outlive their parents' ages. They are going to face a hostile enviroment form the crap we did in the last 100 years to destroy this amazing host we had. They poisonous food, water, air and oceans. We failed them.

I cannot think anyone but Bernie actually gives a flying eff about this in real terms. No one.

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Response to artislife (Reply #28)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:24 PM

66. Good point.

Spot on.

I like to say, this century belongs to those born in it. The rest of us are just guests with a late check-out time.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:56 PM

31. This Map Will Tell

You favorably and unfavorable Sanders states. Forget this meme about POC and firewall in SC/NV. Anywhere with high 65+ population is a lost cause.

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Response to kcjohn1 (Reply #31)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:12 PM

49. Good thing Bernie's Iowa team didn't listen to you. nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #49)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:15 PM

52. optimism...

He did well even with a larger glut of the old.

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Response to JPnoodleman (Reply #52)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:19 PM

59. should old people be discouraged from voting in Democratic

 

primaries?

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #59)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:22 PM

63. did JPnoodleman say or imply anything of the sort?

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Response to JonLeibowitz (Reply #63)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:25 PM

67. "larger glut of the old" was the quote, so yes.

 

A glut means there are too many.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #67)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:34 PM

78. No, it simply means there are an "excess" number, relative to the population.

Which there are in Iowa.

Still not seeing the issue

Full Definition of glut

1: an excessive quantity



http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/glut

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Response to JonLeibowitz (Reply #78)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:43 PM

84. which is the same as saying there should be fewer old people--that

 

their current numbers are "excessive."

So, in order to curb this glut of excessive numbers of old people, what should be done? Tell them to vote Republican? Population control?

P.S. Here's a suggestion: get Generation X-Box off its ass to vote in every election just like that "glut of old people" do.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #84)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:48 PM

89. No it's not the same thing since the poster was referring to Bernie doing well in Iowa specifically

which does have an excess of older voters relative to the rest of the country. That is all that the poster said, and it is not in any way equivalent to what you said.

P.S. Generation X-Box got off its ass in Iowa and delivered Bernie a 70 point margin in Iowa. Thanks for the concern? Maybe if the democratic party ran candidates which represented their values they'd give a damn and vote for them.

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Response to JonLeibowitz (Reply #89)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:51 PM

91. You need to learn the definition of "excess"

 

It means "too many" or "too much."

It is accurate and objectively true as fact to say Iowa runs older than the rest of the country.

It is a personal opinion-based on values--that there are too many old people in Iowa.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #91)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:59 PM

99. See #96 and #78. I am clear about the definition intended. n/t

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #84)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:54 PM

96. Not exactly saying what level should exist...

I am not a demographer so I can't say if there is a "correct number of elders."

What I guess I mean is "X place has a proportionally more older people, and Bernie did very very well in-spite of latent skepticism of change or more radical politics."

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Response to JPnoodleman (Reply #96)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:56 PM

97. Ah. That is a much better way of saying it. Peace. nt

 

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Response to kcjohn1 (Reply #31)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:19 PM

60. This is just wrong.

All the shades of wrong.

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Response to kcjohn1 (Reply #31)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:44 PM

86. Yikes...That data is 23 years old! n/t

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 08:57 PM

32. That, and the fact Boomers know that they won't live another 40 years

so they don't care if Hillary helps to destroy most life on this planet with her rabid anti-environmental policies. Short term profits are *everything* to some people.

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/09/hillary-clinton-fracking-shale-state-department-chevron

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:04 PM

37. We're all starting our adult lives $50,000 in debt

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:10 PM

44. Young people see no possibility THEY will acquire any assets ever

 

That curve is somewhat the natural order of life -- I have a lot more in savings and assets at age 55 than I did at 35, mainly because I made enough house payments to now own my home outright.

And there's the rub. I have assets now because I got on the upward-mobility train when I was in my 20s, had a decent job and bought a house.

Young people today truly don't have the same opportunities I did. I didn't graduate college with a home mortgage worth of student loan debt. Young adults choking on student loans can't buy houses or start families.

Go Bernie Go.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:15 PM

51. their whole lives youngun's have heard repubs and sanders-type dems dumping on hillary endlessly nt

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Response to msongs (Reply #51)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:16 PM

55. HUH?

 

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Response to msongs (Reply #51)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:47 PM

191. For good reason

Remember the Iraq vote?

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:15 PM

53. Younger people are looking straight down the barrels

 

of an economy that is completely rigged by and for the 1%. And Bernie is the only one talking about systemic change.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:17 PM

56. There are number of my friends who are big Hillary supporters.

They are also people who got good city and country jobs back in the day and were able to retire with a great pension. I think it's great they were able to do that but those jobs just aren't there today and young people are aware of this. Times have changed and the new TPP/NAFTA world we live in isn't the same one Hillary and people like her came of age in.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:17 PM

57. Information and Courage vs Ignorance and Cowardice

 

Last edited Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:03 PM - Edit history (1)

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:47 PM

88. Hope for change VS. Fuck it. nt

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:53 PM

94. I haven't seen anyone mention

the fact that, not having lived through the heart of the cold war, "socialism" has a different, far more benign, connotation to the young, than it does to their elders.

Socialism was very popular among those who were young in the 1920's and many were avowed socialists until well into the 50's and 60's when communism gave socialism a bad name.

So when I was young,the oldsters were the liberal folks and the youngsters the more conservative ones.

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Response to marybourg (Reply #94)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:59 PM

193. the 1950s red scare

Also, I think, in the 1950s, for all its flaws, the alternative to socialism was a form of capitalism that was less brutal and more distributive because of unions and public investment and a strong manufacturing sector. Taxes and government weren't yet dirty words. So you might reasonably expect capitalism to be a positive alternative to pure socialism and expect a decent middle class life if you worked hard and played by the rules.

These days, with the balance shifted so far to the right and to the benefit of the ultra-wealthy, with less and less of a safety net, capitalism isn't looking so great. And when sensible proposals like single-payer government insurance is derided as "socialism", it doesn't seem like such a bad thing. So at least the more educated and woken-up among us aren't going to be deterred by the socialist label and may even embrace it.

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Response to Kumbricia (Reply #193)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:59 AM

210. Agree. n/t

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 09:57 PM

98. I think it's more to do with older folks understanding the reality of politics...

versus idealistic youthful exuberance.

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Response to DCBob (Reply #98)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:24 PM

130. Bernie is sprightly for a septuagenarian and doesn't seem to drink.

 

I don't want my President to cut ties with the world at the end of the day and sink into a glass of scotch or wine. I want my President to never stop feeling and working for the people. Like a fucking super hero.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:06 PM

107. Young people have hope of a better future

And the courage to believe they can mak a difference.

Some older people are afraid of change and lose the courage to try.

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Response to Nanjeanne (Reply #107)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:17 PM

121. Not anymore.

Today, young people know their future is screwed. So they have little to lose by disrupting the entire system.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #121)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:20 PM

123. I believe young people know their Congresspeople have disappointed them and screwed their future

so they have lots to gain by engaging in the process and making it better.

Sort of like my generation did for civil rights, Vietnam War, women's rights and more.

You should engage with young people and maybe you'll find some who aren't the lousy losers you seem to think they are.

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Response to Nanjeanne (Reply #123)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:32 PM

135. Hi. I'm one of these mysterious "young people".

GenX, technically.

When we talked about our high tuition and credit-card-interest-rate student debt, we were told it was time to shut up and gut welfare.

Though the party finally did finally work to cut the interest rate...after our scheduled payments were done.

So I'm well aware of what "engagement" wrought. And I'm well aware how the massive political apathy of my generation was created. There's a reason there's basically no GenX Democrats taking over for the Boomer Democrats, and it wasn't for lack of engagement. We're a small generation, and we weren't needed for Democrats to win. So that engagement went nowhere.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #135)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:49 PM

151. Well don't be discouraged - be active. You are the future.

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Response to Nanjeanne (Reply #151)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:50 PM

153. No, I'm not. We're still a small generation.

Millennials have power. We do not, and will not.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #153)


Response to Nanjeanne (Reply #159)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:54 PM

161. It's not at all easy. But after you lose enough times

you figure out that enthusiasm will not overcome counting.

The options are try to lead the Millennials, or serve the Boomers. We simply aren't big enough to get attention on our own.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #161)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:55 PM

164. I deleted my comment. You are depressing me too much.


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Response to jeff47 (Reply #121)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:38 PM

141. So just blow it all up because you haven't found a way to succeed??

Sounds awfully selfish.

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Response to DCBob (Reply #141)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:41 PM

144. Not even close. But not at all surprising from you.

Boomers have assets. They are at risk if we try to change things.

Millennials do not, and a whole lot of them will never own a house under our current system.

Therefore, Millennials are more open to shaking everything up. That doesn't mean they are nihilists out to destroy everything.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:07 PM

108. GenX will be the first generation in US history to die poorer than their parents

and Millennials are even worse off.

There's lots and lots of people who don't want to face the world they created for their children and grandchildren. So there's going to be lots of "they're lazy", "their faces are stuck in iPhones!" and "we're just pragmatic!".

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #108)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:11 PM

112. We already are poorer than they were at our age.

 

The only advantage I see for GenX and later is that with all the overproduction that has occured (At the cost of our environment) that there is a glut of second hand goods for cheap.

We are the thrift store generations. So long Macy's and other retailers, we can not afford you.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #108)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:12 PM

114. A destructive side of me wonders if we should all lurch hard right....

If we Millennials will never collect a dime of Social Security but toil away to prop it up, if we can have no medicare, why support these older ones getting it?

Spite can be a powerful motivator towards hatred and destruction.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #108)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:21 PM

126. Maybe that's why they want things to change with Sanders

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:14 PM

117. And Boomers wonder why they are hated by Millennials...

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:16 PM

120. First off, a lot of older people

 

are with Bernie. Like me. 67 years old, and the thought of Hillary as our nominee or as President makes me quite depressed.

On my FB page, every single person who shows up there and has mentioned a candidate, every single one of them are for Bernie. And a lot of my FB friends are my age, plus or minus. What has me so astonished is that I'm not even seeing mention of Hillary, let alone O'Malley or any one of the Republicans. Yeah, my FB page is not exactly an accurate polling site, but it's still somewhat astonishing, the skew to Bernie.

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Response to SheilaT (Reply #120)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:46 PM

149. That's great SheilaT. Glad to hear there are still some people out there willing to fight.

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Response to SheilaT (Reply #120)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 04:19 AM

214. I'm of SS age also...



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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:40 PM

143. Where are the Boomers who fought so hard during the 60's? How did we go from

fighting the system to change things to we can't change things? Did people just get tired or is it the money? What happened to the generation I had such admiration for and looked up to?

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #143)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:51 PM

157. When you are greedy and acquire wealth, you are pretty focused on defending it

Boomers became greedy in the 80s and the ones that are part of the "haves" don't want people taking away their money.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:55 PM

163. Serious Question re: single-payer

So what happens to the approximately 500k people who work for the health insurance industry if we were able to somehow get single-payer through congress?

This is a serious question, not a repudiation of the concept. I just haven't heard an answer to this yet, and would legitimately like to know.

Thanks to anyone who might have an answer to this.

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Response to NewHampshiriteGuy (Reply #163)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:59 PM

171. Considering that Canada has about 1/10 the population of the US,

There is probably 50K people working in healthcare administration, it employs a lot of people with good paying, many of which are unionized jobs.

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Response to NewHampshiriteGuy (Reply #163)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:34 PM

188. They could job share, take early retirement, start their own business, change careers,

 

go back to school, and so on. The idea that we have to have the bloodsucking insurance companies taking 20% of our healthcare dollars off the top just so half a million bean counters can have jobs they hate is preposterous. Amazing what malignant thoughts we have been conditioned to believe.

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Response to NewHampshiriteGuy (Reply #163)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 02:57 PM

234. Undoubtedly some lobs would be lost. Our health care system is highly inefficient

Yet many jobs would still remain; consider that the Medicare system still needs to employ many people, and then extend this out to the entire U.S. population under single payer.

However, "some people will lose their jobs" is no reason to keep around an horribly inefficient system. We don't have tens of thousand of people employed using push brooms to clean the streets anymore either.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 10:57 PM

168. Don't know where you got the chart but as a 70s YO voter...

...it is pure BS.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:07 PM

179. Huh? How many people younger than 35 are earning upwards of $180K? Can you elaborate?

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Response to George II (Reply #179)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 03:00 PM

235. I would say reading is fundamental, but I don't think it is a reading comprehension issue

so much as intentional obtuseness.

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Response to LondonReign2 (Reply #235)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 03:16 PM

236. Thanks for the insult, I appreciate it!

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Response to George II (Reply #236)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 03:36 PM

240. Is being accurate an insult?

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Response to LondonReign2 (Reply #240)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 03:37 PM

241. Not at all, which is why..

......I thanked you for the insult.

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Response to George II (Reply #241)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 08:15 PM

244. Feigning ignorance with the intent of distorting an argument? Getting called on that is not getting

insulted.

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Response to LondonReign2 (Reply #244)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 08:33 PM

246. Check the chart and then check my comment. No feigning or ignorance involved on my part...

....have a great evening.

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Response to George II (Reply #246)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 10:49 PM

247. Point to me where you see earnings on the chart

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Response to George II (Reply #246)

Tue Feb 9, 2016, 02:51 PM

248. So then, was it actual ignorance or feiging ignorance?

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:08 PM

180. The idiological media propaganda machine

...didn't really become what it has until the 1990's when mergers and consolidations started giving it power and a Republican Congress started giving it a pass. At the time anything anti-Clinton got media legs, then Fox News was born in 1996 and the rest is well--obvious.
These young people you point to cut their teeth on propaganda and marketing strategies--they have been interpolated as subjects their whole lives without even realizing it.

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Response to pandr32 (Reply #180)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 12:25 AM

195. Millennials

were too young to be watching political TV, and adopted the internet and social media as it rolled out. As a 44 year old X-er (who was all for the Battle of Seattle), at the time, I saw the 'fix' and embraced the internet too. TV and hate radio have dwindling effect on those under 55-60.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:16 PM

182. Also, Bernie is urging us to build a better future while Hillary likes the status quo

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:21 PM

183. Well, My husband and I are pretty old,

retired and relatively comfortable financially, but we're for Bernie all the way. I've been hoping for a candidate like him for about 50 years.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:21 PM

184. Free college

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:22 PM

185. Makes me proud to stand with Bernie Sanders.

I am 62 years old and my income ~$120,000 per year. I fit right into that graph, but I am a Bernie supporter. I don't know what that says about me, but I'm really glad that I am in line with the young people in this country.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 2, 2016, 11:38 PM

189. Young people are impatient for change, old people don't want change - want to protect

what they've got. Change is scary - might lose out on their assets, property values, stock. The great recession of 2008 taught a valuable lesson - everyone I know lost money and they never want to have that happen again if they can stop it.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 12:29 AM

196. Cynicism. k/r

 

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 12:31 AM

197. Damn. I never knew old people were so rich.

 

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Response to Cheese Sandwich (Reply #197)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:09 AM

206. I think that figure is inflated,

or maybe they're figuring in the value of home equity and so on.

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Response to Blue_In_AK (Reply #206)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 05:23 AM

215. Home equity is usually considered part of net worth

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 12:44 AM

198. That and fear. Age makes cowards of us all.

I totally get it. You worked hard, and you want to hold on to that little bit you have.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:11 AM

207. Free stuff is definitely the ticket.

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Response to kennetha (Reply #207)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 03:34 PM

238. Thanks for your input Speaker Ryan

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Response to LondonReign2 (Reply #238)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 03:46 PM

242. Well, he is promising a lot of stuff

and mostly making the billionaire class pay for it. He does say he will raise taxes on the middle class to pay for healthcare, but he promises that the taxes will be offset by much lower premiums. '

You can have all this free stuff if the wealthy would just pay their fare share -- is more or less what he is saying.

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Response to kennetha (Reply #242)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 08:13 PM

243. And you disagree with which part of that?

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 04:04 AM

212. I think it is where people get their information and what their

work history has been.

Younger people get their information from the internet. If they want to know something they look it up on the internet. They search around until they find the truth about something, or something that rings true.

Also, while it is true that older people have money and maybe own property, maybe own their home or something like that (are more likely to have saved assets over the length of their lives) younger people are more likely to have STUDENT DEBT.

Younger people are more likely to have the newer jobs that don't last long and don't pay much.

Older people are likely to have kept at least some job at some time longer than their equivalent in terms of social standing and education who is younger.

Young people are not being paid well. They are competing with other workers across the world who live on less income and are willing to work in what we would find unacceptable conditions.

Older people may have lost jobs but still somehow fool themselves into believing that there is some hope that they will get a real long-term job somewhere.

The big split started in the 1980s when people started losing jobs and we started international trade and taking down import barriers.

I had a babysitting job in 1985 (had just returned to the US and that was the only job I could get). I watched C-Span while the baby slept. They had a discussion in Congress about getting rid of import duties. The Republicans were all for it. I recall that one of the Democrats warned that if we agreed to free trade, we would soon be "serving each other hamburgers" instead of doing real jobs.

That Democrat was right. Somewhere in C-Span's archives, sometime between the end of August 1985 and the middle of November that same year there is a video of that I suspect. Anyway, that is what has happened.

The polite term for it is "the service economy." It's a cruel joke. We are basically serving each other hamburgers and not much more in our economy.

And now they want to push the TPP on us. It is going to mean less money in the pockets of the young (and as they grow older, the old), less independence for our democracy and country, a lower living standard and misery.

"Free" trade is not good for America. It is good for the 1% and the 1%ers are the only people it is good for in America.

It's the people who recognize just how bad free trade and all the mythology that goes with it really are for Americans as individuals and America as a country who are for Bernie. Age is significant because older people still think free trade might have its redeeming qualities and because they are not as frequently looking to start their careers. Older people are OK with the status quo. They can buy what they need with what they have because they don't need as much as the young who are starting careers and families.

This is ALL about jobs and the economy. Jobs, jobs, jobs. We lost our industrial jobs. That's what this is about.

The Clintons are responsible for the loss of a lot of American jobs. The young know that. Their elders do not.

The internet teaches the young what is going on. Their elders rely on the mainstream news which is the news of the uneducated and incurious.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 07:52 AM

217. I have to call BS on the graph.

I don't believe for one second the medial wealth for 65-74 is $180000 plus. Granted that's a little low if you throw in a paid for house , car and maybe some 401K money but I highly doubt there are enough people in America who are over that amount to make the median that high. The vast majority have closer to zero... or will very quickly after one short illness. To get that amount I think they threw in the few 5%ers which hold most everything.

Maybe it's just everyone I know but I can't believe half of seniors have close to 200 grand squirreled somewhere.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 12:27 PM

221. Affluenza - Senescence - Right of Center Dino's

 

Those with higher incomes, more age, and views more to the right voted for Hillary.

Republican Lite

That is not my cup of tea.

I am happy to be in the young - visionary - hopeful crowd.

An old man who can still imagine.

Clean Air
Healthy Waterways
Sustainable Food Production
Affordable Housing
Single Payer Healthcare
Commitment to Education for All
Green Energy and Transportation

And Relationships With Self And Others
and Between All Beings and Entities Based on Understanding

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 02:38 PM

229. Young people have everything to gain

and nothing to lose from his proposals. For the most part, they're not paying any taxes, so they only see upside.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 02:47 PM

232. No one under the age of 25 has lived at a time when Clinton wasn't smeared in the media

Since 1992, Hillary Clinton has been under a constant GOP smear campaign, and no one under the age of 25 has ever not lived hearing those smears. Of course many of them are influenced - they may not even realize it, but every time a Bernie supporter calls Clinton "Shillary" they show how profoundly brainwashed (and misogynistic) they are.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 03:24 PM

237. I don't understand why older voters aren't drawn in by his ideas for expanding Social Security.

As a person on it, I know I am. Of course, mostly I support Bernie and his plans because they will be most beneficial to younger people. Once you age into the "sacred old person" category, politicians pretty much don't screw you over much because they know you vote.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Wed Feb 3, 2016, 03:34 PM

239. Severe I-got-mineism. nt

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