"God exists outside of space and time"

[Ninjaneer]

This was given as rebuttal to a debate I was having, went something like this:

"Something can't come from nothing!"
"Then what created god?"
*drum roll*
"God exists outside of space and time, and thus is not bound by our rules and laws"

What is a good rebuttal to this?

I've heard a few, but none of them seem to have the sort of..."debate ender" quality I'm looking for.

What do my fellow heathens think?

[rrneck]

1. Prove it.

If God exists outside of the universe, there is nothing in the universe that can prove his existence.

[laconicsax]

2. There's always this inconvenient (to them) fact:

According to "our rules and laws," you will always get something from nothing. This is not only been a theoretical underpinning of modern physics, but has been confirmed experimentally multiple times.

If the theist insisting that "something can't come from nothing" is anything like the theists here who have pushed that old idea, they'll twist themselves up so tight in contradiction trying to maintain their dogma that they'll inadvertently prove that you'll always get something from nothing as shown in the sub thread here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/121816533#post21

The implications of "existing outside space and time" are pretty straightforward. There's the "not bound by our rules and laws," but "existing outside space and time" also prevents a god from doing anything "inside space and time." If they want to let their god come and go, then that god must obey the "rules and laws" while here because if they don't have to, then the "outside space and time" argument is superfluous.

Of course, asking them how they know any of what they claim is a good way to show the intellectual poverty of their position. They either have to rely on logical fallacies or admit that they're just guessing. Either way, they wind up being forced to concede that their position is possibly false. Opening minds to the possibility that their assumptions about the existence of a god is a charitable act.

[dmallind]

10. And on the science side, it's not that the universe CAN come from nothing. It HAD to.

Nothingness is unstable as far as quantum probability is concerned (Christ I used the Q word! But hey at least I used it about subatomic elementary particles where quantum mechanics actually applies, not about our very much macroscopic brains or very much imaginary souls).

[DetlefK]

3. "If God is not fully in this universe, how can you be sure, that the thing you found is God?"

[skepticscott]

4. If god is outside of time and space

then they cannot possibly have experienced him in any way whatsoever, other than as an utter fabrication of their needful imagination.

[Ultraviolet Cat]

5. Two things . . .

There are two issues with this short argument:

1) You can stop the person at the statement "Something can't come from nothing". This is a knowledge claim and has to be supported. Here is the issue: a) the universe is something (even empty space is something with its own creative properties), b) all of our observations are of the universe, c) therefore, we don't know anything about the properties of "not universe" or "nothing". We cannot say that "nothing" does not have creative properties as we have never actually seen it or been able to test it. (

2) The rest of the argument is "special pleading" - you aren't allowed to say that something comes from nothing first statement), but this person can (second statement).

Sorry -- neither of these are debate enders but they can at least keep the ball rolling.

[dmallind]

6. This - and all the others - are very helpful.

To add some jargon to it the issue is whether God is immanent (not a typo and means part of/in physical reality) or transcendant (outside and not part of it). As others have said there is no explicable or even logical way for a transcendant being to interact with immanent reality. A transcendant god would not even be the god of the Deists but a truly and eternally uninvolved mystery.

Their standard responses are:

a) God is both eternally. To which the answer is how do we know this, even theologically "know" this; if God is immanent in some ways he would be bound by physical laws in those same aspects would he not; as above, how can we possibly interact with or have any knowledge of his transcendant aspects

b) God can simply decide what rules apply to him and whether he is transcendant or immanent at any given time. A howler of a special pleading fantasy that is intellectually identical with answering a kid's query on how Santa gets to every house in one evening with "well. he's magic".

[Gore1FL]

7. The easiest rebuttle is that if HE exists outside of space and time

Then he therefore has no effect on the universe so praise and religion are useless wastes of time.

Also edited to add. Of course the universe can come from nothing, that's how quantum physics works.

See also:

and

http://www.amazon.com/Universe-Nothing-There-Something-Rather/dp/145162445X

[JNelson6563]

8. Otherwise known as "the realm of your imagination"

[Starboard Tack]

9. There is no need for a rebuttal, except maybe the word "Exactly!"

God exists only in the imagination of the believer. Has nothing to do with space and time. Nobody's thoughts are bound by anybody else's thoughts. Belief has no "rules or laws".
My question to you is "Why have the debate at all?" It's nigh on impossible to convince a believer not to believe. They have to get there on their own. Trying to dispel the beliefs of others is an exercise in futility. For me, atheism is the default position. It's how I started out. How we all start out. Then we get taken to Disneyland. Some of us stay there, reveling in the fantasy. Some of us come back home to reality.

[HopeHoops]

11. "Man created God in his own image."

That's about it.

[Starboard Tack]

12. +1 Sums it up precisely.

Creation itself is a human concept. Doesn't occur in nature, where nothing is created and everything just happens.

[HopeHoops]

14. Yeah, but remember - the earth is only 6,000 years old and dinosaurs were on the ark.

Curiously, the carnivores managed to avoid eating anything else on the ark except for the unicorns.

[Starboard Tack]

15. Reminds me of an old joke about all the shit piling up on the ark.

Noah finally had enough of it. So he ordered his sons to get the shovels out, which they did and they shoveled and shoveled for days and days until finally they were done and the ark sailed away from that pile of shit, which sat there for millennia until this Italian guy discovered it. I heard the joke in Italy, btw.

[A HERETIC I AM]

19. Same joke, different punch line ;

Ohio

[Starboard Tack]

20. I wonder if that's because Columbus is the state capital

or is it just because it's Ohio.

[awoke_in_2003]

22. I will take Ohio...

over Texas any day of the week, and twice on Sunday. If I could find the job I have here in Cleveland, I would be gone in a heartbeat.

[Kolesar]

25. Well thanks

I love it here. I would only move to some place with more mountains and more skiing.

[awoke_in_2003]

26. I was born in Steubenville...

but lived in Cleveland from the age of 13 to 24. I love the North Shore. What I really miss is autumn- we don't get that down here. When I lived in Boliver, seemed that some little town close by would have festivals on different weekends. One weekend it was Amsterdam, the next weekend it was another town. I have been on one hay ride since I moved down here- I took the grandchildren last halloween. Hay ride and 80 degree whether just don't go together in my mind.

[Ninjaneer]

13. Lot of great points here,

I think my mistake was going the "who created god" route. I should have just asked to see proof right away that he/she/it even exists. That's the less entertaining route though as they obviously can not present any such thing.

[cynatnite]

16. Doesn't that mean he doesn't give a shit about us? n/t

[Gore1FL]

17. I could see an argument either way about caring.

He'd be pretty powerless to do anything about it if such an interest existed.

[AlbertCat]

18. How about:

"Well, since we and everything we can perceive and everything that effects us exists IN space and time, if god is outside that, he can have no effect on our universe and might as well not exist."

Then there's:
"Explain what you mean by 'being outside space and time'."
"How could something outside our space and time have any effect on us?"

Of course being IN space and time simply means it exists. How else would we, also being in space and time be able to perceive or interact with something outside our realm? Things in this space and time effect other things in this space and time. We cannot see Dark Matter or detect it in any other way but for its gravitational effects on galaxies. If not for that, it might as well exist outside of space and time.... or not exist. But it does exist because it has an effect we can measure in this space and time..... yadda yadda yadda...


And could you even imagine a universe where something could "break the rules"? That would just be chaos.

[daaron]

21. "Nothing is impossible."

About the most ambiguous a speculation one could make about nature. Does it mean that anything is possible? Or does it mean that the concept of nothing can have no possible existential manifestation? What kind of idea is "Nothing," anyway?

It could always be the vacuum of a thing, but then it needs some Thing about which to be vacuous in order to have any meaning. Nothing has no intrinsic identity in what we might call the existent cosmos - the empirically verifiable shared reality of everything that exists (whether we've measured it or not). So given this definition of Nothing, it's an idea like 'triangle' or 'circle': geometric, and having no corresponding basis in nature, but rather confined to realm of higher thought and visualization.

Consider zero in a zero-dimensional basis: zero has no meaning, here, because there's no dimension against which to multiply it. But give zero even one dimension of freedom, and multiply it times X in any field, and abracadabra, you've got a one-dimensional zero: 0*X. Want a three dimensional zero? Use a 3D basis: 0 = (0*X + 0*Y + 0*Z). 4D? 5D? OK. A bazillion-D zero? Not a problem, though one will run out of symbols to represent each dimension, rapidly.

My point is that Nothing has no mathematical meaning outside of space and time (a mere 4D basis, X,Y,Z of space, and T of time). Never mind the additional, rather damning lack of empirical meaning outside of space and time. Consequently, it's just sort of a doofus thing to say, "God exists outside of space and time." In fact, deconstructed in this way, this translates to, "God does not exist." This is not, I imagine, the position that a proponent of the proposition intends to take.

[salparadise1000]

23. They want to hold you to rules that they don't ....

...have any intention of following themselves.

Someone who uses:

"God exists outside of space and time, and thus is not bound by our rules and laws"

as part of rebuttal in a debate about religion has no interest in a true debate. If they are allowed to get away with that as a logical argument then there is really no reason to continue the debate. I am of the opinion that as an atheist it is not my job to disprove god. I put the onus of the theist to prove that their god exists. Logic like that quoted above is not going to do it.

Also I mostly think those sort of arguments are futile. A person of 'Faith' is never going to be persuaded by even the most rational of logical arguments, it's the very nature of faith. If someone is having a 'crisis of faith' I tend to think that the best just to show how comfortable you are with your atheism. It's not a matter of trumping the others persons arguments or 'winning' the debate. It's about showing them that you are happy with the choices you have made. Letting them know that you are fine knowing that death is the end. You are not concerned about your immortal soul. And most importantly, you don't need any commandments in order to be a good person.

[AlbertCat]

24. And most importantly, you don't need any commandments in order to be a good person.

My sister and her friend were staying with me and we started the god-argument. My sister's friend came up with the "So, why don't you murder people?" nonsense. I said "How do you know I don't?.... sleep well tonight."
Then I gave her a real answer.
I don't murder, steal and lie because I don't want to be known as a murderer, thief and a liar. I'd get ostracized from society in no time.... and as most religious people should know, that's not good. So bad, many will even pretend or convince themselves Stone Age mythologies are very important! At least at Christmas and Easter.

[sakabatou]

27. "So, you're arguing upon special pleading? Really?"