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Sat Apr 27, 2019, 12:56 PM

"Lamb of god." Ok. I've finally seen how these religions got started: Pagan Sacrifice

It sometimes takes a change in perspective to see the forest through the trees. I've had an epiphany:

I never understood why Jesus had to be sacrificed and why they say "Take away the sins of the world." It never made any sense to me. We, who live in the 20th and 21st centuries no longer practice sacrifice. Ok we pay our religious institutions, but we don't believe we're buying favor from god directly when we do it. We don't go to church and throw a hundred dollar bill in the basket to help insure a great business deal goes through. Or that a woman will fall in love with us, or that we'll have better growing weather. We really don't.

But early christians did. It is a pagan requirement to make sacrifices to the pagan gods to garner their favor for our personal needs. Ok, I have to admit, people pray before ball games, and when they win, some athletes say, "Thank you, god!" and try to give god credit. Same thing happens at award ceremonies.

But that's really not associated with sacrifice.

The reason judaism and paganism gave way to christianity was the great one-size-fits-all god sacrifice. This was the first god who made is so simple:

1. Only one god, and he's largely benevolent if you follow his simple rules, and all rules applied to everyone, so, preaching to the crowd worked, since everyone followed the same rules. Pagans had no such preaching because there were no rules, only selfish and malevolent, unpredictable, screwy gods.

2. 10 rules. That's it. Fit on a home-made chunk of clay, or easily written out on a scrap of parchment, or in church windows.

3.This is the first god to do his own sacrifice for YOU! Incredible! He sacrificed his own beloved son so we wouldn't have to keep burning up perfectly good livestock. WHAT A DEAL!!!

Maybe everyone else already got here, but I've been reading some novels and watching some viking shows, and have become accustomed to their way of thinking (don't worry, I don't buy any of it, it's just fun to hear them trash christianity). And it suddenly dawned on me that early christians demanded this idea of sacrifice: Sacrifice is entirely pagan, so, early christians needed one, too. But they needed a really, really big one. A final one, that would end all the routine little ones: They needed god's own beloved son to die, to make it sell.

Throw in forgiveness of sins, and eternal life after death, and how could it lose? Honestly! It's the most brilliant bit of marketing in the history of humanity!

When you look at it with 2nd century eyes, christianity FINALLY makes sense! Jesus is the mega-pagan sacrifice! It's all pagan, and the believers have no clue, because paganism is largely forgotten these days.

It also makes sense when you hear about sacrifices in the early bible. Didn't god tell abraham to kill his son, and he almost did? I'm not schooled at all in the bible, but I think there were lots of sacrifices going on. It was what you did in those days.

So, christianity is pagan-lite. How nice!



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Reply "Lamb of god." Ok. I've finally seen how these religions got started: Pagan Sacrifice (Original post)
lindysalsagal Apr 2019 OP
Dale Neiburg Apr 2019 #1
lindysalsagal Apr 2019 #3
cilla4progress Apr 2019 #2
lindysalsagal Apr 2019 #4
localroger Apr 2019 #5
lindysalsagal Apr 2019 #9
msongs Apr 2019 #6
Buzz cook Apr 2019 #7
lindysalsagal Apr 2019 #8
comradebillyboy Apr 2019 #10
lindysalsagal Apr 2019 #11
vlyons Apr 2019 #12
yellowdogintexas Apr 2019 #13
lindysalsagal Apr 2019 #14
rurallib Apr 2019 #15
50 Shades Of Blue Apr 2019 #16
lindysalsagal Apr 2019 #17

Response to lindysalsagal (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2019, 12:59 PM

1. But we still sacrifice what's most precious to us.

In an earlier day, children or livestock. Nowadays, money.

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Response to Dale Neiburg (Reply #1)

Sat Apr 27, 2019, 01:02 PM

3. Yes, but it's not the same mind-set. Pagans had one very specific favor in mind and they were

buying godly interference. Nowadays, it's just considered a generic obligation to support the local congregation. The preachers tell everyone they all have the obligation, and they don't promise individual metaphysical favors in return.

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Response to lindysalsagal (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2019, 01:00 PM

2. I also believe that monotheism appeals to

those of an aurhoritarian persuasion. Like so many trump cult-worshippers of today.

It's how it highjacked xtianity - the evangelical right, that is.

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Response to cilla4progress (Reply #2)

Sat Apr 27, 2019, 01:04 PM

4. Yes. This new god of rules seemed easier to contend with. One got a better sense of control

than they did in the old days which were just random anarchy. This one promised order and leverage.

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Response to lindysalsagal (Reply #4)

Sat Apr 27, 2019, 01:11 PM

5. Which is the real reason

...that Constantine thought Christianity would suit his empire better than paganism.

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Response to localroger (Reply #5)

Sat Apr 27, 2019, 01:30 PM

9. Exactly! Much more stable. He could read the handwriting on the wall.

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Response to lindysalsagal (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2019, 01:12 PM

6. instead of lambs, christians sacrificed pagans by the millions nt

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Response to lindysalsagal (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2019, 01:15 PM

7. God sacrificed himself to himself

in order to fit conditions that god had devised himself. All that to save humans from a hell that didn't exist till after Jezuz had been hanged from a tree.

We should point out that the Catholic church and probably others still sacrifices children.

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Response to Buzz cook (Reply #7)

Sat Apr 27, 2019, 01:28 PM

8. You're right: The holy trinity stuff is so confusing. But to sacrifice your own son! In those days,

that was everything.

In those days, your life was all, entirely, about securing an heir to carry on the family name. Women had continuous pregnancies because babies died so often. You needed to just keep trying to ensure someone survived you.

So, whoever thought up this stuff knew that the idea of sacrificing your own son would be monumentally impressive to a 2nd century man. I mean, when life ended in your 50's, you'd rather die than have your son killed. Every time.

Interesting, that millions of people say these words and have no idea what they mean.

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Response to lindysalsagal (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2019, 01:30 PM

10. Before the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple, animal sacrifice

was a feature of Jewish worship. Unblemished lambs were a favorite sacrifice in the Temple. So not necessarily pagan.

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Response to comradebillyboy (Reply #10)

Sat Apr 27, 2019, 01:35 PM

11. Absolutely. I believe you had to pay the jewish priest to do the sacrifice, too. But it shows

why the new religion did so well: It felt right to everyone. It made sense to them, in those days. Doesn't make a lick of sense today.

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Response to lindysalsagal (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2019, 01:37 PM

12. For some silly reason, humans have been projecting

a deity, or deities, since forever. I think it has to do with the mistaken belief that our ego, our sense of self, is a real, solid, self-existent thing. I'm a Buddhist in the Tibetan vajrayana tradition. We don't believe in a creator god. Although Tibetan Buddhism has many deities, I personally see them as an anthropomorphic symbolic projection of certain qualities, like compassion, wisdom, tranqility, etc. All qualities that each of us can develop in our own minds without the intervention of a deity. Buddhism is concerned only with how to live a happy life. What are the moral behaviors that lead to suffering and problems, and what behaviors lead to happiness and contentment?

The Old Testament Bible was written after the Jews returned to Jerusalem from captivity in Babylon. Many of the stories in the Old Testament, such as the flood were borrowed from the Gilgamesh stories. And of course the New Testament was created many years after the death of the historical Jesus,assuming there was a historical Jesus. I see the Bible, old and new testaments, as literature with many parables and moral truths. Not so much as historical truths. For example, there is no such thing as a Virgin Birth, especially for a male baby. And there is no such thing as resurrection 3 days after death. And no such thing as walking on water. Wading in shallow water, well maybe. But these fictions do not invalidate the moral truths in parables such as the good Samaritan, or the story of Jesus using his belt to chase the money changers out of the temple. I am especially fond of the story of how Judith cut off the head of Halofernes. It doesn't have to be historically true for me to enjoy the story of a woman delivering justice to a rapist.

In Buddhism, we are supposed to use our minds, use reason and logic to figure out stuff.

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Response to lindysalsagal (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2019, 01:53 PM

13. Ancient Near Eastern religion practiced regular human sacrifice

Along comes the concept of monothesim with a somewhat higher moral order ... Abraham, the patriarch of Judaism is commanded to sacrifice his son by the One Diety.....then at the last minute ordered to stop and use the goat instead.

Many scholars believe this was how the religious leaders turned the Jewish people away from human sacrifice .. makes sense to me

My Old Testament Professor referred to Genesis as the Mythology of the Hebrews, and defined mythology as the attempt of a primitive people to explain the things they can not understand. Weather, earthquakes, volcanos, etc were due to humans displeasing the god/gods who controlled them, not the naturally occuring things we know them to be.

Every mythology has a sacrificial hero of some sort, and stories of resurrection some of which seem to be a way of explaining seasonal changes. Every mythology has some sort of miraculous birth story too. One could posit that the virgin birth and the death and resurrection were absolutely necessary in order to move the populace from the old religions to the new.




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Response to yellowdogintexas (Reply #13)

Sat Apr 27, 2019, 02:26 PM

14. Exactly: move the populace from the old religions to the new.

That's what just came together for me: Our 21st century minds have no idea what those 2nd century lives were like, so, nowadays, the mythology is interpreted completely incorrectly: And look at the destruction as a result of our arguing over interpretation.

I've also read that most societies had a goddess who enjoyed the company of a male consort, who would then be sacrificed after a period of time, usually a year. So, We have Mary, jesus' mother, and Mary, jesus' girlfriend/wife, and no story at all about her death. The ancient people would not have required those two women to have different names: To them, there was always a goddess and her consort wasn't gonna make it. They would also have no need of a death story for her. Totally normal to them. Totally confusing to us.

And then, we foolishly attempt to pass laws imposing ridiculous and misunderstood values onto those who know they make no sense.

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Response to lindysalsagal (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2019, 09:19 PM

15. Will need to return to this tomorrow

I have taken and am still taking a similar journey.
Was raised catholic and realized very young that what they were selling was BS and most knew that, but few ever looked to find the reality.

Quickly a couple of the things I have come across:

1) The "one" god slowly evolved from the multiple god religions. Now instead of multiple gods we have a head god and a plethora of not quite gods including angels and saints and who knows what else depending on who you talk to.

2) Ten Commandments? Not really. I am no bible reader, but from what I have heard ancient Jews had hundreds of laws. Even now the Ten Commandments do not agree across christian sects and Judaism.

3) Blood sacrifice was the staple among the ancients. So the idea of a sacrifice to save mankind of a god had to be a blood sacrifice.

Hopefully I will have a bit of time to just add a couple of others.

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Response to lindysalsagal (Original post)

Sun Apr 28, 2019, 01:45 PM

16. K & R - great post!

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Response to 50 Shades Of Blue (Reply #16)

Sun Apr 28, 2019, 05:58 PM

17. Thank you! We really don't know anything about paganism, but it's the point of it all!

I keep thinking, "who knew?" No one!

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