HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Topics » Religion & Spirituality » Atheists & Agnostics (Group) » why shouldnt govt meeting...

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 09:57 PM

why shouldnt govt meetings start w a prayer?

give me your best arguments.

i dont think they should. just wondering how my peeps here would put it.

29 replies, 1023 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 29 replies Author Time Post
Reply why shouldnt govt meetings start w a prayer? (Original post)
mopinko Mar 2019 OP
onecaliberal Mar 2019 #1
old guy Mar 2019 #2
onecaliberal Mar 2019 #3
mopinko Mar 2019 #4
2naSalit Mar 2019 #8
elleng Mar 2019 #5
rickford66 Mar 2019 #6
needledriver Mar 2019 #7
mopinko Mar 2019 #9
elleng Mar 2019 #10
elleng Mar 2019 #15
mopinko Mar 2019 #19
elleng Mar 2019 #21
Irishxs Mar 2019 #11
mopinko Mar 2019 #12
Cartoonist Mar 2019 #13
PoindexterOglethorpe Mar 2019 #14
Lordquinton Mar 2019 #16
mopinko Mar 2019 #17
mopinko Mar 2019 #18
PoindexterOglethorpe Mar 2019 #22
mopinko Mar 2019 #23
rurallib Mar 2019 #20
defacto7 Mar 2019 #24
Boomer Mar 2019 #25
LakeArenal Mar 2019 #26
yortsed snacilbuper Mar 2019 #27
yortsed snacilbuper Mar 2019 #28
Thunderbeast Mar 2019 #29

Response to mopinko (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 10:00 PM

1. Separation of church and state.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to onecaliberal (Reply #1)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 10:02 PM

2. That is all that needs be said.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to old guy (Reply #2)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 10:07 PM

3. Indeed.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to old guy (Reply #2)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 10:18 PM

4. it should be, but it isnt.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to old guy (Reply #2)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 10:51 PM

8. Ayuh!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mopinko (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 10:20 PM

5. Because it offends me, but not too much.

As 'officiant' in my sorority (yes, me!) I read poetry.

There are many more important issues.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mopinko (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 10:33 PM

6. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results

I vote no.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mopinko (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 10:49 PM

7. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,

or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;”

Congress can’t establish any particular official religion. Congress also can’t prohibit people from exercising a religion. Government meetings are held by people - people who may wish to exercise their freedom of religion. It may be customary to open a meeting with a short speech dedicated to the success of the meeting and the well being of people both present and absent from the meeting. As long as the government does not require a specific prayer to a particular flavor of Bronze Age sky fairy - which is to say that the opportunity to give the short opening speech gets rotated among those, either religious or not, who wish to give it - I see no issue with someone offering sincere good wishes for health and success regardless whether it’s a prayer, an invocation, or whatever.

Now if I could just figure out a way to get In The Bronze Age Sky Fairy We Trust off our money…

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mopinko (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 11:18 PM

9. ok, let me be less obtuse.

i need to write a statement on the subject for when it comes up for a vote.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mopinko (Reply #9)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 11:25 PM

10. AHA!

We'll work on that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mopinko (Reply #9)

Sat Mar 16, 2019, 12:17 AM

15. Drafting:

Regarding the choice of some governments to regulate religion and thought, Jefferson stated:

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

Deriving from this statement, Jefferson believed that the Government's relationship with the Church should be indifferent, religion being neither persecuted nor given any special status.

If anything pass in a religious meeting seditiously and contrary to the public peace, let it be punished in the same manner and no otherwise as it had happened in a fair or market.

During his Presidency Jefferson refused to issue proclamations calling for days of prayer and thanksgiving. In a letter to Samuel Miller dated January 23, 1808, Jefferson stated:

But it is only proposed that I should recommend, not prescribe a day of fasting & prayer.

In a letter written to Mordecai Manuel Noah in 1818, Jefferson wrote that America was unique in that it put all religious sects "on an equal footing". This insured that no single religion had state-sponsored domination over any other. However, the state could only do so much; in the same letter, he said that it is up to individuals to behave with religious tolerance towards their neighbors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Thomas_Jefferson#Separation_of_church_and_state

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to elleng (Reply #15)

Sat Mar 16, 2019, 08:13 AM

19. great start.

never hurts to quote jefferson.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mopinko (Reply #19)

Sat Mar 16, 2019, 11:22 AM

21. was just gonna say that!!!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mopinko (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 11:51 PM

11. It's insulting to non-Christians.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Irishxs (Reply #11)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 11:53 PM

12. what if it isnt only christian prayer?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mopinko (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 11:55 PM

13. Pointless exercise

If one is looking for an inspirational opening, quote from reality. There are many wise thinkers to choose from, both men and women.

Invoking a supernatural being is rather passé.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mopinko (Original post)

Sat Mar 16, 2019, 12:15 AM

14. Because Protestants simply don't understand

that "non-denominational" prayer is simply generic Protestant prayer. Those of us raised Roman Catholic can tell it's not what a Catholic would say. And Jews and Moslems would be genuinely horrified because that "non-denominational prayer" doesn't remotely speak to them.

So let's do a few non Protestant prayers and see how people respond. Maybe then they'd FINALLY understand to what extent government meetings, school board meetings, boy scout meetings, and on and on, have ZERO business starting with a prayer.

Just a few throat clearings and a calling to order is all that's needed.

Oh, and no Pledge of Allegiance, either. That's simply a secular prayer some of us don't appreciate.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #14)

Sat Mar 16, 2019, 06:30 AM

16. I didn't think of it until now

But I led meetings for a good while and we didn't open the meeting with anything but a 10 minute delay while.the board shuffled in.

Kept things short and flowing, and respect everyone's time.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #14)

Sat Mar 16, 2019, 08:09 AM

17. i had a friend, a good lefty, who was elected alderman of a small town.

notorious at the time for opposing the iraq war, and W in general.
so, at his first meeting, they decided it was time to start the meetings w the pledge.
he said he would say the pledge if they let him make a statement about the american taste for was and destruction.
they did, so he did, then he did.

he had a house and a business on the main drag through town. people started driving by and cursing at him and throwing eggs.
so yeah.

good times.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #14)

Sat Mar 16, 2019, 08:11 AM

18. also, they have been inviting other faiths.

one of the new board members is a muslim, so when this came up, they started doing this right away.
but they have been overwhelmingly xtian prayers up to now.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mopinko (Reply #18)

Sat Mar 16, 2019, 12:16 PM

22. Inviting other faiths isn't the right solution.

Even if they have an atheist to an occasional opening statement.

Again, there's that silly thing about separation of church and state.

Generic non believers like me find such things incredibly annoying and unnecessary. Unnecessary being the key word.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #22)

Sat Mar 16, 2019, 12:21 PM

23. unnecessary and useless.

a waste of everyone's time. i agree.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mopinko (Original post)

Sat Mar 16, 2019, 11:09 AM

20. I think all government meetings should start with a prayer, in fact many prayers.

Every religion and sect thereof should be allowed a prayer at every governmental meeting. There is what 10 or 20,000 maybe many times more sects and religions in this country.

All that praying should slow down Republicans from making more ridiculous laws while they enjoy their favorite hobby of doing nothing and praying. A new cycle starts every 24 hours.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mopinko (Original post)

Sat Mar 16, 2019, 12:25 PM

24. It's the word separation that was carefully chosen and it's correct.

It's not inclusion of all religions and conditions in state. They knew that would be both impossible and divisive.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mopinko (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2019, 08:51 AM

25. I don't understand the need for prayer

Government meetings are like business meetings: there is an agenda and purpose to the gathering. And that has nothing to do with religion. For me it's discordant because it's irrelevant. If I'm attending someone's funeral, I'm not surprised or disturbed by a prayer, but when I attend a government meeting, a prayer just seems out of place and a non sequitur.

I feel the same way about hearing the national anthem at a sports event. Hello, NOT RELATED.

A pledge of allegiance makes sense at a government meeting, more so than a prayer. If you're about to launch a discussion concerning government business, then reminding everyone what that government is all about is relevant. A little melodramatic, perhaps, but at least in the same conceptual bucket.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mopinko (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2019, 11:13 AM

26. It's useless, divisive, and not government.

Why not read passages of the Constitution?

No one seems to know it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mopinko (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2019, 02:16 PM

27. Because the taxpayers have to pay the cost of the lawsuits!

lawyers make $100.00 an hour!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mopinko (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2019, 02:26 PM

28. Jeebus's advice,

do not pray in public!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mopinko (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2019, 06:26 PM

29. I do not want public officials to take their information

from their invisible friend in the sky. I will be blunt. Prayer and worship are not just a waste of precious human capital. It is a destructive tool that concentrates power in the hands of corrupt preachers, politicians, and theologians.

It is alarming to me that in this modern era, ignorant sheep still follow the teachings of a book written by bronze-age nomads trying to explain their place in the universe using the very limited tools available.

We now know better. I ask believers this: If there were a God, why did said God not provide better evidence of his/her existence? Why is faith the only tool used to "find God"?

So NO! I want to spend ZERO time humoring believers in their silly fantasy. I do not wish to follow those guided by visions they see while closing their eyes and folding their hands.

I don't believe in Santa or the Tooth Fairy either.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread