Silly but possibly illuminating thought experiment - atheist martyrs

[dmallind]

Popped up as an aside in an RT thread. Can't see the point myself but somebody may.

So, given a theocracy, would any of you refuse to publically abandon atheism and worship (in deed that is, not thought) the official national god, to save either your a) possessions b) freedom or c) life? Would anyone have different answers to a through c, or is it the same?

Again for my part I would see no point in martyring even my lifestyle, let alone my life, for the sake of lacking a belief in public. I would still be an atheist of course, but I'd certainly pretend not to be. Different POVs out there?

[immoderate]

1. Would I have access to the temple nymphs?

Makes a difference.

--imm

[BiggJawn]

2. Really interesting proposition.

One one hand, it's all baloney, so if me saying "Oh, YES! I LOVES me some JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEBUSSSSS!" will preserve my life, freedom, and possessions, eh, why not? Since you could say Atheism is a "belief" in nothing, who wants to die for nothing?

On the other hand, if it's not worth fighting for when the cheese gets binding and your life and lifestyle's on the line, then why even mention that you're an Atheist if there's no personal cost? Life would be a lot easier for some of us if family and friends thought we believed the same bullshit they do, yet some of us chose to be "out".

Then on the third hand, not being mistaken for one of those faerie-tale believers is somewhat important to me, but not important enough to go to prison or get thrashed for.

If we were living in a Theocracy, you better believe I'd be in the Resistance...

[PVnRT]

11. Three hands? WITCH!

[PassingFair]

3. No martyrdom for me.

I would fake it like crazy.

I would have to be turned in by an informant.

[Warpy]

4. Well, since giving lip service to something we think is total horseshit

doesn't matter in the long run, I doubt most of us would bother being martyred unless such martyrdom constituted an easy out for those of us with horrible diseases. There is simply no comparison with religious martyrdom, when the soon to be dead are absolutely certain of an immediate reward for their self sacrifice.

However, most of us have suffered small martyrdoms of losing friends, family and even jobs if people find out our dread secret, that we don't believe a word of it.

My mother once asked if I'd learned anything through the religious education in Catholic school. I said "Sure, hypocrisy is an essential part of succeeding through life."

After she picked her lower jaw off the floor, she said I'd learned the correct lesson and so it hadn't been a total waste.

[GliderGuider]

5. I can understand why people might choose to die for a belief

But dying for no belief at all? Doesn't make sense.

The reason people choose to die for their beliefs is they think those beliefs somehow make them who they are, and if they violate or deny those beliefs they are in some way negating their existence. If one doesn't have a belief, it has no role in forming one's sense of self, so there is no threat of self-extinction in lying about it.

No threat of self-extinction, and lots of promise of self-preservation - I don't see that there's any real discussion to be had. Lie like a rug.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

6. I'd fake it to make it, if it saved my life

But I'm not sure how much I'd fake it to save my freedom, because 't faking it, by definition, would deny me a freedom?

I already fake it to a certain extent to keep my job and family. It's a survival skill I learned early on in my atheist years. I guess that's almost like pretending so I can keep my possessions since, without a job, I wouldn't be able to own things.

[Kalidurga]

7. I already sort of fake it around religious types...

I pat them on the head or what not and go about my day. If they caught wind that I think it's all a buncha hooey, I would be at it all day trying to convince them that I really really don't believe and defending that position of not believing. I will pass on that.

[AlbertCat]

8. I'd fake it

It's not like I'd go to hell for doing so. Since this is the only life I get, I'd lie to keep injustice out.


Of course I'd be real bad at it.

[cleanhippie]

9. Seems easy enough for most others to fake it, I guess I could too.

[PVnRT]

10. People who seek to martyr themselves are fools

You're not proving anything except the ability of the regime to kill you.

To quote from Patton: No son of a bitch ever won a war by dying for his country.

[dmallind]

12. For those who missed the RT reply I got - turns out there was such a one back in 1697

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aikenhead

His opinions as reported are remarkably attuned with modern atheist speech, but I have no clue why he thought them worth dying for. Or perhaps he was never given a chance to recant. Chances are we would not get that chance either frankly.

EDIT - on further reading I find he did recant, and even reminded the court that the blasphemy laws called only for imprisonment in sackcloth for the first offense. He begged for mercy on account of his youth too. The judge said he would only commute the sentence if the church appealed.

Their answer? They urged "vigorous execution" to curb "the abounding of impiety and profanity in this land".

[frogmarch]

17. Interesting!

Thanks for posting this.

From a link provided in the Wiki article whose link you posted:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Aikenhead,_Thomas_(DNB00)

AIKENHEAD, THOMAS (1678?–1696–7), executed for blasphemy, was the son of an apothecary at Edinburgh. He is described as ‘not vicious and extremely studious.’ His religious opinions became unsettled by the perusal of ‘some atheistical writers,’ put into his hands, as he asserted, by a fellow student who afterwards informed against him. He was accused of ridiculing the Scriptures, and of declaring that Ezra had invented the Old Testament, that Moses and Christ were impostors, that the doctrine of the Trinity was self-contradictory, and all theology a ‘rhapsody of ill-contrived nonsense.’ Persistent assertion of such opinions was punishable under one statute with death upon a third conviction. Aikenhead made a full recantation before his trial, in which no counsel was assigned to him. His case was brought, by a strained interpretation, under another statute, which made the ‘cursing God or any persons of the Blessed Trinity’ a capital offence. He was accordingly sentenced to death, and hanged 8 Jan. 1696–7, declaring, in his dying speech, his full acceptance of the christian faith. Whilst he was in prison, one of the witnesses, Mungo Craig, published a ‘Satyr against Atheistical Deism … to which is prefixed an account of Mr. Aikenhead's notions, &c.’ A letter published in the ‘State Trials’ from the King MSS. shows that Locke was shocked by this perversion of justice.
[State Trials, xiii. 917–939; Macaulay's History, iv. 781; Arnot's Celebrated Scotch Trials, p. 326.]

[2ndAmForComputers]

13. I'd join La Résistance, but with the intention of surviving.

If they catch me... ah well, I knew the risks.

But I don't want to be caught.

[iris27]

14. I'd fake it while trying to get the fuck outta Dodge. n/t

[amyrose2712]

15. I suppose it depends on how much injustice was the result of such a theocracy.

I would hope that I would have the nerve to stand up for human rights. I mean if they were killing homosexuals in the street, for example, I'd have to fight. To me a theocracy would not only affect whether we claim to believe or not. But it would change the dynamics of our lives entirely. However, faced with death or life in prison. I don't know if I would have the guts.

[frogmarch]

16. I'd fake it and

live to blaspheme another day.

[sakabatou]

18. Same

[2ndAmForComputers]

19. See post 13.

[Ninjaneer]

20. Depends on what religion

and how strictly it is enforced. As an ex-muslim I can seriously say that I would rather die than go back to Islam. No sex, drinking, pork, or scantily clad women? life not worth living.

[rexcat]

21. But being out of the closet...

what are the chances of surviving since there would probably be a "witch hunt" and in the past those who were not considered the faithful did not do well. Of course my survival instincts would kick in and it would not be too hard to "renounce" my ways but I don't know how convincing I would be. If I did survive I would fight the system until my last breath.