Atheists & Agnostics
Related: About this forumIt's that time of year to find the slimmest grain of truth in the highly improbable nativity story,
so that the fact of some person or locale actually existing brings credence to a tale of angels and virgin births and wise men and baby gods.
JDDavis
(725 posts)Sorry, anything in the skies those nights, we can virtually reproduce, except for maybe a comet or two randomly striking the Earth on that date, we can't find evidence of that, which MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED.
Just saying.
edhopper
(33,556 posts)with the only observation appearing anywhere is in a book written 90 years after the event is close to zero.
JDDavis
(725 posts)unbelievable as the story of the birth of the "Christ child".
Whom no one knew (at the time of his birth) would become a leader, even of a band of 12 other rather ordinary men. And yet someone remembered such an event so clearly that they told their children, and their children's children, or their children's children's children, who would eventually write it down as a fact.
The fantastic story of the birth of one young babe later known as Jesus Christ, so well remembered and passed on orally for generations until written down. It's a miracle, or a great fairy tale or pure rubbish.
Take your pick.
edhopper
(33,556 posts)with a clear agenda, based on already established myth from several religions, and it wasn't really remembered by anyone's children's children.
(we both think it's pure fairy tale rubbish, right?)
JDDavis
(725 posts)Pure rubbish, an excuse or rationalization for a winter solstice celebration/feast; probably had been going on among many groups in the norther hemisphere for a thousand years or more.
Not that I mind a party on those dark days of winter. Just call it a party, and forget all these other excuses, the most religious holy observance we call a "Mass", dedicated to the Christ child, called "Christ's Mass".
rexcat
(3,622 posts)are irrelevant with this story. It is just a story made up by iron age men who knew they were plagiarizing from other religions. For some reason virgin births, stars aligning properly and angels and the such were important to these people when it came for them to legitimize their religion.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)OT is late bronze, NT is iron.
edhopper
(33,556 posts)[img][/img]
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)I'll agree with you though, both are iron age. Note the idiotic graphic puts the fictional moses in the bronze age.
NeoGreen
(4,031 posts)...its GANDALF!
NeoGreen
(4,031 posts)... in the Iron Age, is just so wrong....
Clearly, whomever created this is not a member of my denomination.
Iron Age
Hmmph....
Bless their little hearts, what kind of Sethian are they anyway?
NeoGreen
(4,031 posts)...depicting Mt Doom in the Stone Age, seems about right...
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts).... but not by night....especially in mid winter.
And I suppose Caesar Augustus was in charge then..... but he never made a decree that all the world should be taxed. I mean, how would the Aborigines in Australia have found out about that?
edhopper
(33,556 posts)it is always prudent to tell everyone that they must pick up an go to their ancestral town to be counted.
That seems so in character for the practical Romans.
onager
(9,356 posts)In Egypt my job-site was out past a bunch of rural farming villages in the Nile Delta. Life in those villages hasn't changed a whole lot in 2000 years. Except for electricity and internal-combustion engines, but some people don't even have those. I used to see groups of women every day, gathering at a communal village pump to get their water for cooking, cleaning etc.
I frequently saw flocks of sheep and other critters being moved around. Sometimes my car got marooned amongst a flock of the fuzzy little buggers. The driver would just stop until they got past us.
The shepherds moved them on the most direct route to wherever they were going, I guess, including right across or down the paved roads. Just FTR, those shepherds were sometimes women.
This was always during warm weather, never in the winter. Winter in the Nile Delta gets plenty cold and wet, even though much of Egypt is desert. And no shepherd with a lick of sense would try to move a bunch of animals in that weather.
Two other parts of the Nativity myth I often saw:
--Mangers, all over the place in the fields.
--Animals living on the bottom of a house, people living in the top floor. Since some of the Nativity stories talk about a "house," not an "inn."
Mr.Bill
(24,274 posts)That's all I've got. And I'm not completely sure of it.
NeoGreen
(4,031 posts)...some animals...or something...just sayin'
edhopper
(33,556 posts)how an itinerant carpenter could afford an Inn?
Didn't they travel with tents and shit, I mean where did they stay on the road before the reached Bethlehem?
And don't you think it would have been wiser to leave his pregnant, almost giving birth, wife at home and not drag her along?
Also, the wise men seem to be wealthy, do you thing they could have sprung for something to make it easy on them besides the Mihr and all?
...I hear it's da' balm....
ba dum bump....
(I'm killin' myself here)....
edhopper
(33,556 posts)don't make no sense.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)(Robot Chicken is SO WRONG!)
bvf
(6,604 posts)Last edited Fri Dec 5, 2014, 12:00 AM - Edit history (1)
maintain that the methane/fart fireball is only a metaphor and not to be taken literally.
Anything Robot Chicken is always worth a look. Thanks, AlbertCat.
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)onager
(9,356 posts)TL;DR, get your scrolling finger ready.
All quotes from Matthew Chapter 2. As others have noted, most NT Nativity stories disagree with each other anyway, so it doesn't much matter where we get our source material:
Matthew 2:3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
2:4 - 2:8 Herod tries to con the Wise Men into finding Baby Jesus and bringing him back to the palace.
Ah, good ol' Herod the Great, Lex Luthor to the Xian Superman, Baby Jesus. Judeans hated Herod for several reasons - he was an illegal immigrant to Judea, originally hailing from Idumea. Herod tried to fix that problem when he married his second wife, Mariamne, one of the last surviving heirs to the powerful Hasomenean dynasty of Judea. Surviving until Herod killed her, that is, along with two of his own sons.
Herod also had very close ties to Rome, a sure way to piss off Judeans at that time. His father Antipater was one of the richest merchants in Palestine. When Julius Caesar jumped into the Egyptian civil war on the side of his girlfriend Cleopatra VII, Antipater was one of the very few people willing to help the Romans. Antipater not only collected money for Caesar, he sent him reinforcements of 3000 Jewish soldiers. (For which Caesar thanked him profusely in his book "The Alexandrian Wars."
Unfortunately, Herod was mostly written up by two historians who hated his guts - Flavius Josephus and Philo of Alexandria. But Philo got his stories second-hand from people fleeing Judea for Egypt, and Josephus was writing many years after the fact.
In his defense, Herod ruled Judea for a long time, keeping the peace and collecting the taxes. He also built one of the greatest engineering projects of his time, the deep-water port at Caesarea.
2-9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
Nah. Stars don't do that.
2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
All the rigamarole about Egypt is, like most of the Nativity story, an attempt to fulfill various Old Testament prophecies. When I lived in Egypt, I read about umpteen holy shrines, oases, mountains, camel stalls, etc. etc. etc. where the Holy Family supposedly stopped during their flight. Sort of the equivalent of the American "George Washington Slept Here" tourist con.
Everyone of these places had some long-winded quote blessing it, supposedly uttered by Jesus Himself. Who was an infant at the time, let's remember, and probably not toddling around making too many long speeches.
2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
As mentioned above, Philo and Josephus practically recorded every burp and fart of Herod The Great. They absolutely hated the guy, yet neither of them bothered to mention the Slaughter of the Judean Rug-Rats.
Also, Herod served strictly at the pleasure of the Romans. Who just wanted to keep the peace and collect the taxes. If Herod had ordered the massacre of all those babies, the Romans would have yanked him out of office in a heartbeat.
According to Josephus, the Romans nearly did that over a single death - when Herod's brother-in-law Aristobulos drowned. Since the words "accidental death" and "Herod" did not naturally occur together, Aristobulos' mother asked Cleopatra VII to intervene. Cleopatra turned it over to Mark Antony, who sent for Herod and personally interrogated him. And let him go, when Antony was satisfied the death was accidental.
2:22 But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee.
Herod Archelaus deserves a mention because he sort of disproves the Xian propaganda about the Judeans groaning under the oppressive, totalitarian rule of the Romans.
Archelaus must have inherited the Asshole Gene from his father. He managed to bring together two groups of people who loathed each other - the Judeans and their neighbors the Samaritans, who worshipped a slightly different god.
The two peoples formed a joint committee and complained about Archelaus to the Roman governor in Syria (i.e., the boss of Pontius Pilate et. al).
And what did the Romans do? According to Isaac Asimov's "Guide to the Bible," they exiled Archelaus to a spot about as far away from Judea as they could possibly put him - the Roman fortress town of Vindobona. Better known today as Vienna, Austria.
edhopper
(33,556 posts)you just mentioned, Herod, Pontius Pilate and Galilee. And it says those names in the Bible, so that proves it's all true.