"You are arrogant!"

[Stuckinthebush]

My wife is an Episcopalian. We rarely discuss religion because she gets extremely angry with me. I have found it best, therefore, to eliminate this conversation topic in our lives.

Last night we had friends over and the discussion turned to middle school coaches who have a need to bring religion into their jobs as teachers. I've never understood this but it seems that coaches get away with a lot of crap that other teachers couldn't. My rather liberal friends said that while they agree it was wrong, that at least the coach in question was providing some morality education to kids who may not have it.

Well, everyone in this group can probably recite my response to these friends. I did so in a logical and thoughtful manner, but didn't back down. I thought we had a wonderful discussion that ended with them agreeing that it was unacceptable.

After they left my wife jumped down my throat with the comments that I was arrogant and thought I was the smartest guy in the room. This bothered me since I didn't think I was either of these things. I was simply presenting a critical argument against the practice of proselytizing by public school employees.

In the light of day I am saddened by her response and will have a discussion later, but I wanted to know if any of you have ever received a similar response - that you are arrogant. If so, how do you respond?

Non-theism can be a very lonely place at times especially for those of us in the Deep South. I don't post much but I do use this forum as a source of centering. Thank all of you for that.

[Scuba]

1. Accusing you of arrogance is a good way to avoid addressing the issues you raised.

Kind of like labelling anyone critical of Hillary as a hater, rather than addressing the criticism.

[Stuckinthebush]

2. Ad hominem

Exactly. It is used to attack the messenger instead of addressing the issue.

[Gore1FL]

3. Applying logic to sensitive subjects is not an act of arrogance.

People often hate to have their beliefs examined and exposed as nonsense.

[yellerpup]

4. You did win the debate, so

all of a sudden she was the 'other' or odd-man-out in the conversation(instead of that role being played by the house atheist. That had to be uncomfortable for her, and you already avoid these subjects when it's just the two of you. Yes, it's a very lonely situation. Hopefully, she will have done some deep thinking by the time you discuss it. (and not just crafting zingers)

[Stuckinthebush]

5. Good point

I'm used to being the other. She's not.

I find it interesting that a logical, reasoned argument makes one arrogant. I guess if we don't act deferential to the dominant paradigm then we are labeled as arrogant. How dare we question?

[yellerpup]

7. The shift in dynamic probably unnerved her.

People who lose arguments because the facts are irrefutable do resort to name calling. To some, all intellectuals are arrogant, anyone who is right more often than they are is arrogant. It has nothing to do with you but more with their emotional reaction to being wrong/bested/challenged. You, as an athiest, are allowed to question. She is not allowed to question.

[Arugula Latte]

8. You should tell her that.

"I'm used to being 'the other.' You're not."

[Stuckinthebush]

11. I will

I'll let you know how that goes.

[dangin]

6. Atheists always win

But winning based on critical thinking and logic does not sway the religious. They have turned off critical thinking and logic in that part of their lives and likely others.

[LiberalAndProud]

9. Confidence of being correct is often interpreted as arrogance.

If you didn't take a scornful, contemptuous, disdainful attitude, your wife's accusations probably aren't warranted. Evidently we leave humility behind as soon as we stop believing in God. Given that, surely it is arrogant to say so aloud.

I'd be interested to hear if you're able to turn this into a constructive, mutually respectful dialogue.

[Stuckinthebush]

10. I think I was respectful

Her take was that I was not. I find that by simply questioning then one is being disrespectful.

Sadly, I don't have much hope that this will result in a mutually respectful dialogue. It'll likely be a stalemate with me walking away from future conversations in order to maintain peace. As I said ... Lonely

[LiberalAndProud]

14. Maybe it helps to understand that the anger your wife feels isn't willful.

I have said, and do think, that there is a hard-wired rage response when our core beliefs are challenged. If you didn't talk over her, or shout her down, or fail to listen to her ideas, it wasn't your arrogance that she was responding to. I would suggest that the best thing to do is to ask the question, "Why do you think it is arrogant?" and then listen, attentively, to what she has to say without turning it into an argument. As soon as she feels that you have actively heard her, agreement becomes less important. Also, by asking the question, you've asked her to examine her own reaction, which can be a powerful, if subtle, attitude changer. If change occurs, it will be an internal, often difficult, usually slow process. I think it might be a good thing to let her know that you are feeling lonely and restricted in expressing your view of the world.

It is possible (if difficult) to have friendly and productive dialogues about these ideas within religious/atheist relationships. I've seen other couples do it. The first requirement, always, is arriving at a mutually respectful starting point. Emphasis on mutual.

[Stuckinthebush]

15. Fabulous post

Thank you

[theHandpuppet]

22. Well, when you think about it...

... a substantial amount of fundamentalist religion is based upon the assumption that we humans are hopelessly flawed, weak and undeserving of God's love and/or mercy. From childhood we are indoctrinated to abandon our self-esteem, to believe that we're basically worthless creatures who must bow and scrape, begging for forgiveness for every perceived transgression or for even being born as constant reminders of God's disappointment in his own creation. Anything less than unquestioning worship is considered blasphemous, perhaps because part of the questioning process involves discovering that self-worth is not a sin. It's not rational to suppose that you must spend a lifetime in supplication to prove to some invisible deity that you're not the unworthy worm of the religious texts.

Once you (re)discover that feeling of self-worth and confidence in your being, of course you're going to seem arrogant to anyone still burdened by the guilt. It's rather sad, really.

[LiberalAndProud]

23. Our failure to acknowledge our own sinful nature may be in the mix, to be sure.

Have you read any of Dawkins' The God Delusion? I haven't, but mean to because I have been told that Dawkins is arrogant, I assume, based on this book. The astounding thing, to me, was that a woman who has been an atheist years longer than I have agreed with that assessment of Dawkins' character.

I am still puzzled.

[onager]

12. My usual response...

Is something like this:

"You claim to have a close personal relationship with an all-powerful creator and ruler of the entire universe. And you accuse ME of arrogance?"

Not sure you want to try that in this case. Insurance companies probably don't pay for broken dishes/furniture. Or husband's heads...

I sure can sympathize with your argument about the coaches, coming from the Deep South myself and visiting back there occasionally. This kind of "stealth proselytizing" by govt. employees goes on all the time and it usually gets a pass.

Though when it comes to arrogance, IMO it's hard to beat that argument that the coaches are "providing some morality education to kids who may not have it." WTF? In the DEEP SOUTH? Srsly? The most god-soaked part of the USA?

Just imagine what would happen if the coaches were providing some Islamic morality education...

Both things you describe - the coach's behavior and attitudes of your wife/friends - come under something I'd call the "hidden costs" of religion. Costs not "hidden" to atheists because we have to deal with them all the time. I've been in a couple of relationships myself where religion reared its ugly head and became a big deal.

But "hidden" in that they are seldom mentioned by believers, when they are trying to sell us on all the wonderful benefits of religion. Just another blind spot on their part, I guess.

Here's a goofy idea, but you and your wife might enjoy it. Have a Movie Night and watch the 1999 Irish flick "A Love Divided." True story of a mixed Irish Catholic/Protestant couple in the 1950s and how religion affected their family. And eventually their entire town. As a nice bonus, one character is a well-respected "village atheist."

IMdB link: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0198668/

[Stuckinthebush]

16. Ha!

I think I would have some broken bones after that one! I might hide behind the door and say it just for fun.

I concur about the hidden costs. "Just deal with it!" I hear that all the time. Hidden costs, indeed!

Great idea about the movie!

[R0ckyRac00n]

13. sorry :(

I avoid these conversations with other family, but never had to when I was married. I assume there are positives to the marriage as well, or otherwise...

[Stuckinthebush]

17. I think so...

Otherwise I'll be looking for Atheist Mingle dot com!



It's good. There are just certain places we shouldn't go.

[wyldwolf]

18. If your wife attacked you like that, there may be something else bothering her.

[LostOne4Ever]

19. I am part of a gaming/popular culture group on facebook

They have all sorts of discussions there. The majority of it is related to MMO's like world of warcraft (from where we started the group) but there is no real limit on what is discussed there.

After Sandyhook, one group member posted a thread about how this was happening because "we took god out of the schools." Despite the massive insult nested in that comment I tried very nicely to explain how that was offensive and how things are much better now where everyone is treated equally, and how immoral things were back then when god was in schools and Jim Crow was the law of the land.

Next thing I know, I am getting an ass eating by another member about how we atheists are hateful bigots who hate white people and then threw every atheist stereotype in the book at me...

-_-

Since then I found out this particular group member is a FAR right wing reactionary who thinks that the most persecuted group in the US is white male christians. I tried to co-exist with him for a while, but ended up blocking him. He was an insufferable bigot who called Sandra Fluke a, lets just say a very nasty and sexist term for a promiscuous woman, who felt whites are discriminated by African Americans, loves Rush, and all sorts of shit that turned my stomach.

He is the only person I have blocked from FB and life in that group improved 100% after I finally got rid of that asshole.

[Curmudgeoness]

20. We are called arrogant because

we are sure of our position. They are NOT called arrogant because they are just as sure of their position. They are pious or saintly or good Christians....and that is not arrogance. Hmmmmm.

I would find out from her what it was that she considered arrogant, I would let her know that I enjoyed the discussion about religion in the schools, and if she has a valid reason for thinking you were arrogant, apologize and try to avoid doing the same thing next time. (Valid reasons could be things like a total dismissal of the other peoples' points, and if that were the case, it is possible that the other people just said that they agreed with you in the end to stop the discussion.)

Good luck. I don't know that I could be married to someone who was a believer. Unless they were one of the lukewarm believers who never went to church and didn't show any real interest in religion, but just said they "believe".

[Warpy]

21. You do deserve an apology for that.

You're not likely to get one, though. Your arguments might have penetrated her own core defense system and made her feel horribly threatened.

The best strategy in this case might be to develop a short memory and have discussions like the one you won out of her presence since she finds them painful.

I was a gawky kid with braces, thick glasses, high topped post polio shoes, a fondness for science and math, and turned atheist in a sea of Southern Baptists. I do know your loneliness since I had so many disqualifiers for being a southern belle. I was out of there like I was shot out of a cannon as soon as I was old enough and had saved enough to leave.

Other than deists, I find Episcopalians among the easiest to get along with. I just argue religion as little as possible and only when somebody starts talking real smack against atheists.

[cleanhippie]

39. "penetrated her own core defense system and made her feel horribly threatened."

That's most likely it. I know we see that right here in DU, usually coming in the form of "your tone...", or being called rude.
Lashing out like that is a defense mechanism, it's to be expected. I like to look at it as a win for reason; I know it got through to the person and while they may be uncomfortable, they are thinking now. And that's a good thing.

[Warren Stupidity]

24. Yikes.

I think that "arrogance" in this context meant that most people don't think about and don't want to think about religion and the role of religion in society. Instead they just want to, more or less mindlessly, do as they have always done, not question or analyze what goes on around them, and especially with religion, defer always to all expressions of mainstream Christian religiosity.

You made your wife uncomfortable by making arguments that called into question her world view and did so in public, so she got angry with you in order to defend and reinforce the way she sees the world.

[Lordquinton]

25. Search DU for Arrogant+Atheist

more often than not it's the Atheists being called arrogant. It's a common trope, and deliberately used to silence our voices without any sense of irony. Hope you can work it all out, sounds like trouble is in more than just the religious aspect.

[ZombieHorde]

26. Sometimes

being supportive is better than being right when it comes to your life partner. However, you should also be allowed to be yourself and speak your mind.

You're in a tough spot. I say be true to yourself, avoid rehashing the debate when you talk to your wife about the party, and try to listen to not just the specifics of what she says, but also the general theme.

[defacto7]

27. I understand there is an ancient Hebrew word

for arrogance that is more properly translated, "is unteachable or unwilling to learn". I always think about that definition when I hear the word arrogant and it usually turns the label in the opposite direction. I agree with this definition much more than the trite English definition which is thin and ambiguous. I think the modern idea of arrogance comes from a twisted biblical Christian interpretation of scriptures that deal with "false pride" and of course the idea of mankind being dirt and "wise in their own eyes". If you get enough religion injected into civilization over long periods of time, many unrealistic ideas become memetically engineered into life. Suddenly self confidence, intelligence and positive argumentation becomes arrogant.

Think about it... what better way to define "arrogant" than a person who is unteachable or is unwilling to learn?

[AtheistCrusader]

28. I can only help you make it worse.

"You realize you're just attacking me, personally, and not presenting an actual argument, right?"

Hope your couch is comfy.

[Stuckinthebush]

29. You made me guffaw!

I chose not to use that line, but it would have felt SOOO good!

[Duppers]

30. this Bertrand Russell quote won't help at all but

I'm posting it anyway:

“There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man who cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths. Almost inevitably some part of him is aware that they are myths and that he believes them only because they are comforting. But he dares not face this thought!

Moreover, since he is aware, however dimly, that his opinions are not rational, he becomes furious when they are disputed."

- Bertrand Russell


Good luck! And congratulations for being more tolerant than I could be.

(Btw, Hubs and I just celebrated our 47th wedding anniversary, Sept. 2; our first ~20 years were full of arguments. )

[Stuckinthebush]

31. Congrats on the anniversary!

So, I have a few years of arguing to look forward to, I guess.

My wife is a bit explosive at times. She blows up and then we have a more calm conversation afterwards. I think I will continue to skirt the religion issue but I did let her know that I felt she was over the line with her comment to me.

Wish me luck!

[Duppers]

32. Yes, dear, good luck!

And use patience, dear. People can change, perhaps only slowly - they can and do.

If you love her to pieces, be stubborn about holding on to the marriage...and tell her how much you love her! Often too.

[Warren Stupidity]

33. what a great quote. Thanks for that.

[Duppers]

35. glad to contribute

Bertrand Russell was brilliant.

[trotsky]

34. That is a pretty amazing quote.

And the bolded part proves itself over and over and over...

(And congrats!)

[Duppers]

36. Thanks! This quote sums up my feelings..

in a nutshell. I suppose I'm one of those "arrogant" atheists.

I'd like the whole world to trust nothing but the facts, on every subject. It's not that we atheists don't have the same fears that those who rejects the facts do, it's that facts mean more to us.


Russell nails subjects on all levels. There's a free online book of his writings; I hope this link still works (on my ph, so I cannot check it at the moment):
http://sufibooks.info/Integral/Russell_on_religion_selections_from_the_writings_of_Bertrand_Russell.pdf

[AlbertCat]

37. I was the smartest guy in the room.

Obviously.... you were!

[Stuckinthebush]

38. Ha!

Well, I just enjoy engaging in critical discussions. I guess that makes people think we think we are the smartest in the room.

People are fun....and funny