"No just God..."

[RussBLib]

Using a different acronym for the militant group, Obama said: “ISIS speaks for no religion. Their victims are overwhelmingly Muslim, and no faith teaches people to massacre innocents. No just God would stand for what they did yesterday and what they do every single day.”

Read more: http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/james-foley/obama-journalists-killing-no-just-god-would-stand-what-they-n185076

That is a strange construction ... "No just God would stand for what they did yesterday and what they do every single day."

Looks to me like Obama is admitting there is no God and he is an atheist.

Or I'm really reading it wrong.

[Warpy]

1. No, he's saying they've got a false god

and not thinking it through to the logical conclusion that his own god is standing by and letting the slaughter happen.

[ZombieHorde]

2. I suspect President Obama is simply not thinking very deeply

about theology, and is instead thinking about political rhetoric.

[AtheistCrusader]

3. Last time god flexed his justice, he wiped out 99.999999% of humanity in 40 days.

Or so I am told.

[defacto7]

14. Ironic...

The ocean has done that 5 times in earth's history... as well as being the source of all life on earth. I think the ocean makes for a more just god. Sounds like the ocean has out done the Judeo/Christian god too.

[AlbertCat]

4. He's speaking to all those theists out there....

.... and not expressing his personal views as far as we know. His intention is to undermine any religious authority ISIS might have or seem to claim. It's for the crowd.

[mr blur]

5. Two things: I really think he's speaking to the christian base here

"We've got Jesus, they've got the wrong god."

But he's a politician, he's never going to say that any religion would support murder. No votes in that, not in the US. No matter what he really believes (if anything).

Makes one wonder if he's ever read the Old Testament, of course.

[Arugula Latte]

6. So is he admitting the One True God is NOT omnipotent? Or is He just an asshole?

Why doesn't The All-Powerful Christian God just put an end to this nonsense? Oh, right, Free Will...and Free Willy.

[Iggo]

20. He's saying He's not a just god.

I don't think he meant to say that, but that's what he's saying.

[Tobin S.]

7. Without Islam, would there be an ISIS?

Those men clearly think they have God on their side.

[Curmudgeoness]

8. Let's not give the right wing a talking point

in giving them something to sink their teeth into---no matter what Obama is really saying here.

But if I were to guess, I would say that he is "trying" to say that these people are not doing god's work and god is not with them. And since the god of the Christians and the god of the Muslims is the same god, it does sound odd if you think much about the wording.

By the way, did you just dump this post in here to cause problems and then leave? Doesn't look like you wanted discussion.

[mr blur]

9. No-one would do that!

By the way, did you just dump this post in here to cause problems and then leave? Doesn't look like you wanted discussion.

Would they?

[Curmudgeoness]

11. I guess I am just overly suspicious.

I'll have to work on that.

[RussBLib]

13. I didn't intend to "dump this post in here to cause problems and then leave"

I made the post because I was really struck by his wording and noticed that the story hadn't already been posted in this space. And about as soon as I posted it, I had a flurry of "work" (at my job) and only now am I getting onto the computer at home. Life has been a bit hectic lately.

[Curmudgeoness]

26. I understand. It happens.

You must understand the there are people who do post things and run, just to stir the pot. It looked like that might be what this was, but glad to hear the reason.

Now, what do you think of all the discussion regarding your post?

[RussBLib]

27. Sure, I understand. I'm not on the site all that frequently.

And I have a funky job that goes nuts now and then.

The discussion regarding the post was just what I was hoping to see: a great mash-up of wit, analysis, wisdom, erudition, cynicism, history, snark, ridicule, mythology, philosophy, science, realpolitik, quoting of Scripture, humor and crassness. Perfect!

It's wonderful being around other atheists, even if only electronically. I'm not a regular contributor but I do skim a lot.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

10. It looks like a classic No True Scotsman fallacy to me

Just because he's a liberal doesn't mean that he can't also sometimes be an idiot.

And Mr. President? If there WERE a god, why would he allow ISIS to do the shit they're doing? Is he deliberately cruel, or does he simply not have the power to do anything about it? God's either a cruel asshole or an incompetent asshole.

[Cartoonist]

12. So where do I find a "just" God?

If there is one, it looks like he's "just" standing around letting them do what they did yesterday and what they do every single day.

[defacto7]

15. The ocean.

5 almost total extinctions as well as creating all life on the planet. Now there's a god!

[defacto7]

16. 2 main themes to deal with.

1. A religious group that does things in the name of their myth.
2. Same said religious group committing ethically unacceptable acts.

It appeals to the vast majority of Americans who believe in a deity and who want to separate themselves from uncivilized acts.

As a secondary advantage, it gains public sentiment creating a presidential pulpit.

I'm not trying to belittle the speech, I'm just minimizing its basic form.

There are a lot of people in this world who are perplexed at the uncivilized and ruthless acts that can now be seen immediately every day. It's shocking to some, but it is humanity at its ugliest to most. Seeing religious warring acts in vivid "Technicolor" is a new thing for most Americans. Though it may not be new for much of the rest of the world it was always part of terrible moments in history, not a video extravaganza between advertisements.

To me, it all just represents the worst in humanity and the depths of depravity we are capable of as a species, and how far we have to go. I don't personally need a sermon but I understand the need to feel separate from "evil" people.

[trotsky]

17. "no faith teaches people to massacre innocents"

1 Samuel 15:3
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.

[RussBLib]

18. indeed

Perhaps Obama hasn't read the Bible either, like millions of Christians.

[trotsky]

19. Ain't that the truth. n/t

[AtheistCrusader]

21. Some days, I think Atheists are the only people that ever actually read that fucking book.

[NeoGreen]

22. An excellent and dramatic presentation of this verse...

... can be seen in the BBC production of "God on Trial".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_on_Trial



I've posted/recommended this production before, and cannot do it often enough.

Riveting.

Rabbi: No. The promised land was empty and a new place, uncultivated.

Judge: No. There were...

Rabbi: When the Lord thy God shall bring you into the promised land you shall cast out many nations before you, nations much greater and mightier than you are. You shall smite them and utterly destroy them. Make no covenant with them and show no mercy to them.

Inmate: It shows us his favor. We are his people.

Rabbi: And he gave us a king in Saul. Now when the people of Amalek fought Saul's people, what did the Lord God command? I'll ask the scholar.

Scholar: Crush Amalek and put him under the curse of destruction.

Rabbi: Was Saul to show any mercy to spare anyone?

Scholar: Do not spare...

Rabbi: Do not spare him, but kill. Kill man, woman, babe, and suckling, ox, and sheep, cattle and donkey. So Saul set out to do this and on the way he met some Kenites. Now these were not Amalek's people, he had no quarrel with them. He urged them to flee. And the Lord our God was he pleased by the mercy of Saul, by the justice of Saul?

Scholar: No. No he wasn't.

Rabbi: And when Saul decided not to slaughter all the livestock and to take it to feed his people, was God pleased with his prudence, his charity?

Scholar: No.

Rabbi: No, he was not. He said, you have rejected the word of Adonai, therefore he has rejected you as king. And then to please the Lord our God, Samuel brought forth the king Agar and hacked him to pieces before the Lord at Gilgar. After Saul there came David who took Bathsheba the wife of Uriah the Hittite to himself after arranging to have Uriah killed -- against the wishes of God. Did God strike David for this?

Scholar: In a manner of speaking...

Rabbi: Did he strike Bathsheba?

Scholar: In the sense that when they had...

Rabbi: Adonai said, since you have sinned against me, the child will die. (Turning to the judge) You asked earlier, who would punish a child? God does.

Rabbi: Now did the child die suddenly, mercifully, without pain?

Scholar: In a...

Rabbi: Seven days. Seven days that child spent dying in pain while David wrapped himself in sack and ashes and fasted and sought to show his sorrow to God. Did God listen?

Scholar: The child died.

emphasis is mine

[deucemagnet]

25. The entire movie is available on YouTube.

I highly recommend it as well.

[NeoGreen]

31. I would have posted the link...

...but I can't do YouTube at work.

[AlbertCat]

28. I like:

1 Samuel 18:25

"And Saul said, Thus shall ye say to David, The king desireth not any dowry, but an hundred foreskins of the Philistines, to be avenged of the king's enemies."

I don't suppose David JUST circumcised them.

[Warren Stupidity]

23. I never expect expressions of religiosity to make sense.

It is all just mish-mash. The OT god certainly would be fine with retributive slaughter. I see no statement in the NT that such slaughter is forbidden.

[Lordquinton]

30. When you reduce the bible to the sermon on the mount

you have to exclude a lot of things god and Jesus said, like how he wasn't there to replace the laws, rather to uphold them.

[LiberalAndProud]

24. I understood it to mean that God is not just.

Last edited Fri Aug 22, 2014, 05:48 PM - Edit history (1)

Of course, I also understood what Obama meant ISIL to hear.

Still Epicurus defines the God dilemma all too well.

[font size="1"]Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” [/font]

[AlbertCat]

29. Still Epicurus defines the God dilemma all too well.

Indeed.

The "mystery" of "mysterious ways" disappears if god disappears too. He's just not there. It all makes sense.