Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

scubadude

(3,556 posts)
Wed Jul 4, 2012, 07:33 AM Jul 2012

I don't understand how the Higgs field imparts mass on an object during acceleration, but doesn't...

slow it down while the object is coasting. How can this be? There is something very counter intuitive here. Could any of you knowledgeable in physics clue me in on how this works?

And is frame dragging just mass dragging about the Higgs field? I'm way over my head.



Thanks,

Scuba

16 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
I don't understand how the Higgs field imparts mass on an object during acceleration, but doesn't... (Original Post) scubadude Jul 2012 OP
Well, maybe Higgs just can't sit still, eternally restless, Surya Gayatri Jul 2012 #1
In over your head? How appropriate... Scuba Jul 2012 #2
Not a physicist. BadgerKid Jul 2012 #3
Also not a physicist Ready4Change Jul 2012 #4
its an act of penitence Ichingcarpenter Jul 2012 #5
What really confuses me (not that most things don't) Motown_Johnny Jul 2012 #6
That's because it's not the Higgs particles themselves giving mass. Odin2005 Jul 2012 #7
Well that clears things right up! Motown_Johnny Jul 2012 #8
here ya go Marrah_G Jul 2012 #11
This 5 minute video may help. Jim__ Jul 2012 #9
Nope, that didn't help at all. scubadude Jul 2012 #10
No, I don't think it's like water dragging on a boat. Jim__ Jul 2012 #12
A mass moving through empty space would be be pulled in all directions with a net zero effect. Eddie Haskell Jul 2012 #13
But a mass under acceleration isn't also pulled in all directions? And since motion and acceleration scubadude Jul 2012 #16
Turtles. All the way down. RagAss Jul 2012 #14
Here's my take on it. Igel Jul 2012 #15
 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
1. Well, maybe Higgs just can't sit still, eternally restless,
Wed Jul 4, 2012, 07:48 AM
Jul 2012

always on the move--hyperactivity disorder on a cosmic scale? Sorry, but I just couldn't resist.

Just love the idea of this infinitesimal, invisible particle
flitting madly around the cosmos, laying down mass on everything.

BadgerKid

(4,548 posts)
3. Not a physicist.
Wed Jul 4, 2012, 09:22 AM
Jul 2012

I believe the idea is that above a certain critical energy, all elementary particles are massless, and below which, some elementary particles are non-massless. The interaction of the latter with the Higgs field gives those particles their masses.

Ready4Change

(6,736 posts)
4. Also not a physicist
Wed Jul 4, 2012, 10:44 AM
Jul 2012

My take would be that the way the Higgs imparts mass is not equivalent to drag. It isn't 'scooping up' and accelerating this new mass. The 'added mass' is an intrinsic quality of the moving particle itself.

Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
5. its an act of penitence
Wed Jul 4, 2012, 01:18 PM
Jul 2012

A Higgs boson walks into a bar, and asks everyone to take part in an act of penitence.
"What are you doing?" asks the barman.
"Giving mass."

I've got no clue but the whole Higgs bosum story is fascinating........ BTW. I know the joke sucked.


 

Motown_Johnny

(22,308 posts)
6. What really confuses me (not that most things don't)
Wed Jul 4, 2012, 01:40 PM
Jul 2012

is that the Higgs seems to be 130 - 140 times more massive than a proton.


How can this thing be giving mass to all elemental particles if there are particles with mass only a tiny fraction of itself? Shouldn't this thing be the least massive particle in existence which then interacts with particles that don't have mass to give them mass?

I'm so lost.

I guess I need to wait for "The Higgs Boson For Dummies" version.

Odin2005

(53,521 posts)
7. That's because it's not the Higgs particles themselves giving mass.
Wed Jul 4, 2012, 01:44 PM
Jul 2012

It's the Higgs field, which can be visualized as a sea of "virtual" Higgs particles, that creates mass.

 

Motown_Johnny

(22,308 posts)
8. Well that clears things right up!
Wed Jul 4, 2012, 02:35 PM
Jul 2012


So a sea of "virtual" particles ~135 times the mass of a proton is giving a proton it's relatively small amount of mass. That makes much more sense.




Thanks for trying though. It is gonna be a while till I can wrap my head around this.

scubadude

(3,556 posts)
10. Nope, that didn't help at all.
Wed Jul 4, 2012, 04:53 PM
Jul 2012

As a matter of fact, it just reinforces the idea that the Higgs Field imparts mass in the same way that water imparts drag on a boat as it travels across the surface. We all know that when the motor stops turning, the boat slows and comes to a stop. Yet, in a vacuum when an object is accelerated, it maintains it's speed until it is operated on by another mass.

I still don't get it.

Scuba

Jim__

(14,056 posts)
12. No, I don't think it's like water dragging on a boat.
Wed Jul 4, 2012, 06:00 PM
Jul 2012

He does use the word drag; but he is constrained by using natural language. However, at one point, when he is talking about the conversion between mass and energy, he says, "The more the particles were slowed by the Higgs field, the more of their energy has been condensed into a super-concentrated form of energy known as mass." It's the energy of the particle itself that is being converted to mass. Drag on a boat is not changing the mass of the boat (ignoring miniscule relativistic effects) - it's caused by friction with the water and (simplistically) the dissipation of energy through the creation of the bow wave.

Here's my non-physicist take on it: when the particle is accelerating, it is gaining energy and part of that additional energy is converted to mass; but, when it is moving at constant speed, it is not gaining any energy and so there is no additional conversion going on.

Eddie Haskell

(1,628 posts)
13. A mass moving through empty space would be be pulled in all directions with a net zero effect.
Wed Jul 4, 2012, 06:32 PM
Jul 2012

Therefore, there is no drag and momentum is conserved.

scubadude

(3,556 posts)
16. But a mass under acceleration isn't also pulled in all directions? And since motion and acceleration
Thu Jul 5, 2012, 05:33 AM
Jul 2012

are relative to an object, isn't that also relative to the Higgs field?

That also doesn't make sense.

So, if there were only one object in all of space, it would have mass imbued upon it by the Higgs Field. Yet because acceleration is impossible in a one object universe, the mass would be impossible to measure.

I guess I'm babbling...

Scuba

Igel

(35,268 posts)
15. Here's my take on it.
Thu Jul 5, 2012, 01:53 AM
Jul 2012

Maybe it's right. Maybe it's not. (Lots more ways for it to be wrong than right, so take that for what it's worth.)

The Higgs field simply is. It has certain energy states, it has certain properties. It's everywhere in the universe. If you kick it just right, you give a bit enough energy and a Higgs boson pops out. It's a real particle, it has actual energy. I personally keep wanting the fields to just be mathematical abstractions, things that we need to make the math work. Wanting doesn't make it so. It just gives me a headache.

Anyway, even if you don't produce Higgs boson, the energy in the field is such that there's a chance of a Higgs boson happening, of one just popping into existence for a brief moment. This would create a problem--it would take up more energy than the field has, violate energy conservation, and that's a no-no. So it can't exist and vanishes again. But if there's a chance of its happening, then it happens about that often. These are virtual particles: They exist for an instant and then vanish because they shouldn't really exist. So while they have real effects the particles themselves can't be measured or tested. (Check out the Casimir effect.) Note that this is another headache maker, but since virtual photons are predicted, if they existed they'd be able to be entangled in the right way so you could figure out their properties. In fact, in the last year somebody's managed to get a virtual photon to be "copied" and produce a real photon. Virtual photons exist, virtual other things exist. If a real Higgs particle exists, the virtual ones should exist.

So let's say you're an neutrino and are massless. You enter a Higgs field. I.e., you join the universe. You don't interact with the Higgs field. That means you don't interact with the virtual Higgs bosons. You don't care much about them, moving or standing still. Well, being massless you can't really be standing still--you have to have momentum. So off you go at the speed of light.

If you're an electron and enter the Higgs field you don't have much mass. But you interact with the Higgs field a little bit and so you have some mass. It's easy to move fast. But you can stand still.

You're a proton. You enter the Higgs field and you interact with it. Virtual Higgs bosons are everywhere and force you to convert most of your energy to mass. It doesn't matter if you're moving or standing still, you're interacting with the Higgs field and the Higgs bosons. They pop into existence and you're there to interact with them. If you move, they pop into existence as you go along and you're still there to interact with them.

I have to imagine that if you're moving fast enough you might wind up imparting some energy to the Higgs field. But its the nature of the Higgs particles' interaction with your particles that gives you mass. It's not like you have mass because you're imparting energy to the Higgs particles. You keep your energy. It's just become mass.

This is the opposite of drag in water. In water, you're imparting energy to the water molecules. This means you have less energy and less velocity. (My analogy is with water and wetness: If you're oil, you don't get wet; you don't interact with water; if you're Goretex, under some conditions you get wet, but generally you don't interact much with water and don't get very wet; if you're cotton, well, you get wet. You interact a lot.)

The result is that in a Higgs field you have an invariant mass. If you move faster, your energy contributes to your momentum--but your invariant mass is the same. You move through a sea of virtual Higgs particles, but the amount of time spent interacting with them, the sum of the interaction for any second, is a constant. You can interact with those that pop up in your position over the course of 24 hours or be in orbit around the Earth for 24 hours and interact with the Higgs that pop up in the near vacuum around the Earth.

Now, I suppose there might be some energy lost to the Higgs field as you rush at near-light speeds. I mean, they may be virtual particles, but could a proton actually interact with it by running into it? Well, they're small particles and even a proton is mostly nothing. My guess is that the energy loss, if theoretically possible, would be small. Negligible. Probably not measurable these days. Stay tuned.

(If I'm wrong, somebody, let me know.)

Latest Discussions»Culture Forums»Science»I don't understand how th...