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struggle4progress

(118,278 posts)
Tue Dec 13, 2011, 03:18 PM Dec 2011

Here's a thread where you can state your views about church-state separation

Let's not have arguments in this thread. Let's just state our own points-of-view for future reference. If your views change, or you decide they need further clarification, you can always edit your post to update your views

I'll start:

I think Jefferson got it pretty much right: there should be a wall-of-separation between church and state. I dislike politicians yammering piously. I would prefer not to have "In God we trust" on our coinage, and I omit "under God" if I recite the Pledge. I don't think officially-sponsored prayers belong at city council meeting or at public school events or in similar contexts. I'd prefer not to see religious displays on public property. I think different groups should have equal access to public facilities on an equal basis: if the coin collecting club can rent the public school gym for an event, then an atheist group or a religious group should also be able to. My concern grows if public resources are used to promote particular religious views or if there is some governmental coercion involved or if there is exclusivity. My concern diminishes when there is no substantive material issue. There's always some grey area, which depends on exact context: in my lifetime, the US courts have imo generally handled the matter pretty well, and most of the US public has generally agreed with the courts

39 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Here's a thread where you can state your views about church-state separation (Original Post) struggle4progress Dec 2011 OP
well put. Thats my opinion Dec 2011 #1
What do you mean by "those who push the line from either side"? cleanhippie Dec 2011 #5
We have had several posts on r/t that complain that anybody with a religious perspective Thats my opinion Dec 2011 #15
Link, or it didn't happen. n/t laconicsax Dec 2011 #24
Sorry, calling BS on this one (again) skepticscott Dec 2011 #26
The "religious led civil rights effort"? Did you happen to forget who led the fight AGAINST it? darkstar3 Dec 2011 #27
This is why your claims to want "serious" skepticscott Dec 2011 #35
I agree with you. Lint Head Dec 2011 #2
Oh I think we're all "pretty much" in agreement when it comes to our stances on the issue. trotsky Dec 2011 #3
I look at it on the basis of fairness and equality. Given that everyone has different beliefs, Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2011 #4
I'm for it. Iggo Dec 2011 #6
I go further lazarus Dec 2011 #7
There's probably a lot of history going way back behind this, and a lot of MarkCharles Dec 2011 #9
There are actually two historical justifications for not taxing religious establishments-- TygrBright Dec 2011 #25
I wish that were possible lazarus Dec 2011 #30
I accept the wording of the First Amendment as interpreted by the first 2 "prongs" of the Lemon Test Jim__ Dec 2011 #8
With reference to the third prong, which if any of these is not "excssive" MarkCharles Dec 2011 #10
The courts get to decide--and it is a tough complex set of problems. nt Thats my opinion Dec 2011 #18
I agree. There are no easy answers here. - n/t Jim__ Dec 2011 #34
The question of what is or is not a "religious" symbol is a tough one. TygrBright Dec 2011 #28
It's really not that difficult for reasonable people. darkstar3 Dec 2011 #31
You have the background nailed when you cite the Lemon Test. Thats my opinion Dec 2011 #16
I'll draw a picture so there's no confussion deacon_sephiroth Dec 2011 #11
That's exactly right. How anyone can say BOTH sides are pushing... cleanhippie Dec 2011 #12
Fixed. Iggo Dec 2011 #19
I find it bemusing that uriel1972 Dec 2011 #13
I think the reason Australia is more secular... laconicsax Dec 2011 #33
I have no problem with a large mixing of Angry Dragon Dec 2011 #14
Does your religion have dungeons as well as dragons? MarkCharles Dec 2011 #17
No dungeons ......... just dens and weirs Angry Dragon Dec 2011 #23
I agree with your stance, and I will add ZombieHorde Dec 2011 #20
I agree. Various denominations certainly incorporate Adsos Letter Dec 2011 #38
Great idea. westerebus Dec 2011 #21
Taken from Newdow vs. Congress (9th Circuit No. 00-16423) MarkCharles Dec 2011 #22
Our government is either representative of all, or it is not. darkstar3 Dec 2011 #29
My view, though it is not shared by the body of US court decisions on the matter, is that the state iris27 Dec 2011 #32
I'm for it; but don't care that much about the trappings LeftishBrit Dec 2011 #36
Yes, your position reflects my own. Adsos Letter Dec 2011 #37
For myself. westerebus Dec 2011 #39

Thats my opinion

(2,001 posts)
1. well put.
Tue Dec 13, 2011, 03:56 PM
Dec 2011

When the framers drafted the first amendment, they left it purposely ambiguous. There will always be those who push the line from either side. Maintaining a balance between establishment and free exercise has always been tricky. When i was on a city council I objected to opening prayers, and we finally did away with them, in favor of a word about values and democracy.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
5. What do you mean by "those who push the line from either side"?
Tue Dec 13, 2011, 04:08 PM
Dec 2011

The only push I see is from religious groups trying to get their religion to play a part in government.

Just who is pushing from the "other" side of that? Can you provide an examples of what you mean, please?

Thats my opinion

(2,001 posts)
15. We have had several posts on r/t that complain that anybody with a religious perspective
Tue Dec 13, 2011, 07:40 PM
Dec 2011

should not engage in public affairs. That religion must be solely a personal matter of prayer etc.
Thus, for instance, the religious led civil rights effort that ended in the voting rights law should have been out of bounds.

The push on one side comes from those who might seek to establish doctrinal (Biblical) law, thus violating the Constitution's establishment clause. The push from other side comes from those who would deny religiously motivated people or groups--conservative or progressive-- the right to engage in public policy debates, thus violating the Constitution's free exercise clause.

The desire to codify religious law (Sabbath keeping for instance) must be resisted. But anyone, religious or non-religious, has a right to lobby for ethical rules (economic justice for instance).

As the courts have held, the line between establishment and free exercise is unclear, and there is the inevitable push from either direction. Maintaining a barrier to establishment while not prohibiting free exercise is always tricky.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
26. Sorry, calling BS on this one (again)
Tue Dec 13, 2011, 09:27 PM
Dec 2011

Can you point us to those posts? Can you show us that they actually mean that a PERSON with a religious point of view should be barred from public affairs, as opposed to saying that public policy should not be based on perspectives that are solely religious?

darkstar3

(8,763 posts)
27. The "religious led civil rights effort"? Did you happen to forget who led the fight AGAINST it?
Tue Dec 13, 2011, 09:30 PM
Dec 2011

Holy shit.

As for your claim that people here want "anybody with a religious perspective" to refrain from engaging in public affairs, that's just bull. Ask any atheist here, point blank, whether they think a believer should be able to serve in ANY public office. You'll find they'll tell you two things:

1. Yes, because this is a government of and for the people, and all of us should have the same opportunities.
2. Just remember that since this country is not entirely religious, and more importantly not entirely made up of people of your religion, and since this country's government is secular, religious reasons are not enough to base any government decision on.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
35. This is why your claims to want "serious"
Sun Dec 18, 2011, 09:59 AM
Dec 2011

"thoughtful" discussion ring so hollow. You made a claim (an accusation, to be more accurate), and when asked to provide evidence to back it up, you disappear (again).

Things are not true simply because you say them. Useful discussion is suppose to get us closer to the truth, and winnow out falsehood, but you seem to think that doesn't matter, as long as you come out feeling warm and fuzzy about everything.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
3. Oh I think we're all "pretty much" in agreement when it comes to our stances on the issue.
Tue Dec 13, 2011, 04:01 PM
Dec 2011

The problem appears to come in when discussing what to do about it.

Since you don't want any disagreement in your thread, I won't say anything else.

Sarah Ibarruri

(21,043 posts)
4. I look at it on the basis of fairness and equality. Given that everyone has different beliefs,
Tue Dec 13, 2011, 04:07 PM
Dec 2011

religions and views, it's unethical to represent any one belief or religion. This is not a Christian country, much to the chagrin of the Repukes, who spend a good chunk of their time attempting to prove that it is, which is absurd and should be nipped in the bud whenever they start with that.

No religion should be promoted, no gods, entities, nothing.

lazarus

(27,383 posts)
7. I go further
Tue Dec 13, 2011, 04:45 PM
Dec 2011

I object to being forced to subsidize religion in this country. I feel religions should be taxed just as any other organization is taxed.

There's no reason they shouldn't pay income taxes and property taxes, except that the government is treating them in a special manner that is proscribed by the first amendment.

 

MarkCharles

(2,261 posts)
9. There's probably a lot of history going way back behind this, and a lot of
Tue Dec 13, 2011, 05:11 PM
Dec 2011

consideration that happened when the USA was setting up the income tax laws, as well.

At the time of the initialization if the U.S. income tax, there were relatively few pension systems, no social security, and precious few services to the poor, sick , elderly and disabled outside of church-sponsored facilities, or simple town "poor-houses" or "poor farms".

I'd be curious of someone has done some research as to what the justification has been over the years for enabling churches to escape virtually un-taxed by governments.

TygrBright

(20,758 posts)
25. There are actually two historical justifications for not taxing religious establishments--
Tue Dec 13, 2011, 09:24 PM
Dec 2011

--one is the one that you refer to: Churches historically did the works of charity that benefited communities, and in the absence of the Churches to do them, tax dollars would have to be expended either to do those works, or to deal with the consequences of NOT providing hospitals for the destitute ill, orphanages, halfway houses for released prisoners, "magdalens" for unmarried single mothers, etc. Therefore the tax exemption was a way of subsidizing those services without any actual expenditure of public dollars.

The second justification is more interesting, and harks back to English law and the early struggles of the evangelical Protestant denominations to enforce the separation of church and state. As the Colonies were under English rule, the Established Church (C of E) was invested with secular as well as religious power. Rather than paying taxes, taxes were allocated by the Crown to support the church, and the church could use government resources to collect its "tithes." If you didn't pay those tithes, you were unlikely to be considered for any public appointment, you were barred from holding many offices, and it was legal to discriminate against you in a whole variety of ways.

In the wake of independence, the Episcopal Church of America took over from the C of E, and was no longer allowed to use government resources to collect tithes. Nevertheless, the power structure in almost all of the Colonies was heavily based on being in good standing with the major church in your state. In spite of the separation clause, in the early days of the Republic quite a lot of institutionalized discrimination was carried out in favor of those major denominations.

It was during the early 19th Century that growing movements of small Protestant evangelical sects took on the issue of enforcing separation of church and state, as a way of leveling the playing field. Baptists, Congregationalists, and other groups were not "mainline Protestants" then-- they were outsiders, discriminated against by the Episcopal power structure. In fact, their establishments were subject to taxes and fees that Episcopalian properties and establishments were not subject to.

So in addition to crusading for the abolition of institutionalized discriminatory provisions for government appointments, hiring, contracting, etc., the evangelical Protestants demanded equity in treatment with the Episcopalians: the same freedom from certain types of taxation and fees.

I think we are more than ripe for some kind of compromise where the money raised by Churches to support hospitals and other charitable works is accorded the same deductability and tax exemption as other charities' revenue, money raised to support strictly religious functions is not taxed as income to the churches but is not subject to deductibility for the donor, and purely religious establishments (as opposed to homeless shelters and other facilities operated by churches) are subject to the same property taxes and fees as any other property owners. Multi-use structures (worship hall upstairs, soup kitchen downstairs) could be taxed on a pro-rata basis. The incomes AND emoluments (cars, houses, etc.) of church employees including pastoral workers, should be subject to individual income taxation at appropriate rates.

If churches want to put up religious displays, they can certainly do so on their own property. And if they want to buy airtime or outdoor advertising for their messages, they should be allowed to do so on the same basis as other advertisers. But such displays and messages in ANY public property should be off limits.

And if the owners of privately-owned, secularly-purposed public facilities want to display religious messages, they should be permitted to do so providing that they make equal display space available on the same cost basis to any and all faiths and to atheist groups. Owners of private property that is not a public facility (as in, my front yard) should be able to display any damn' thing they want.

With regards to religiously-based art, scholarship, and history in the public schools, there is a valid case to be made for allowing it to be studied, performed, etc., as an artifact of culture. Providing that material from all faith traditions and from atheist groups are accorded similar consideration for study as cultural artifacts, and no religious interpretation, involvement, proselytization, or other adjuncts are attached to the educational content, it's relevant and useful. You can't study human history and culture without some understanding of religious and atheist thought and practice.

And tacit as well as explicit discrimination against atheists has to be exposed and abolished, or all the cant about equal consideration for everyone's beliefs is so much meaningless hot air.

adamantly,
Bright

lazarus

(27,383 posts)
30. I wish that were possible
Tue Dec 13, 2011, 10:11 PM
Dec 2011

I don't see our ever being able to tax churches, though.

I like your ideas.

Jim__

(14,075 posts)
8. I accept the wording of the First Amendment as interpreted by the first 2 "prongs" of the Lemon Test
Tue Dec 13, 2011, 05:07 PM
Dec 2011

Jefferson's quote is itself based on the wording of the First Amendment:

"... I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."


His phrase is an effective metaphor for summing up the amendment; but I don't think it adds any clarification.


The Lemon Test consists of three "prongs":


  1. The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;

  2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;

  3. The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.


I agree with the spirit of the 3rd prong; I just don't believe it clarifies anything.

 

MarkCharles

(2,261 posts)
10. With reference to the third prong, which if any of these is not "excssive"
Tue Dec 13, 2011, 05:42 PM
Dec 2011

Decorating the town buildings, or schools with Christmas items, lighting a Christmas tree at the White House.


How about allowing all churches, religious schools, colleges, hospitals, etc. to pay little or no tax on their land and property, yet be afforded all services, from street cleaning to fire and police protection at no cost? Is that arrangement with city and state governments "excessive government entanglement" with religion?

Where is the line to be drawn as to what is "excessive entanglement" and does that go both ways?

Is a city's support of an Annual Santa Claus parade, or St Patrick's day parade, together the the costs of extra police and other city services "excessive entanglement"?

And, ultimately, who gets to decide these things? On what standard or basis?

TygrBright

(20,758 posts)
28. The question of what is or is not a "religious" symbol is a tough one.
Tue Dec 13, 2011, 09:31 PM
Dec 2011

A six pointed star might be a Star of David, or it might be a decoration with no religious significance at all. Is a Christmas tree put up by atheists and decorated with shiny baubles and icicles and lights but no manger scene items a "religious" symbol or just a holiday symbol? Is drinking green beer and puking in the gutter a display of religious sentiment for a Catholic saint, an expression of ethnic/nationalist pride by an atheist of Irish descent, or an opportunity to behave outrageously for a neo-Pagan adolescent?

uncertainly,
Bright

darkstar3

(8,763 posts)
31. It's really not that difficult for reasonable people.
Tue Dec 13, 2011, 10:20 PM
Dec 2011

First, every major religious group has a symbol they use to represent themselves, and I know that because they all keep showing up on "coexist" bumper stickers. But that's not even the point. If it's completely unclear as to the origin or purpose of the decoration/symbol, then it's probably not an attempt to recognize one religion over another. Reasonable people can agree that a christmas tree, sans angel, is too vague to be a religious symbol, and it is the same with a Santa, an Easter Bunny, a turkey in a Pilgrim hat, and many other decorations you'd find on an elementary school wall. In the same vein, reasonable people can agree that a cross, a star of david, and so on are widely recognized as religious symbols, and should be treated as such.

Thats my opinion

(2,001 posts)
16. You have the background nailed when you cite the Lemon Test.
Tue Dec 13, 2011, 07:44 PM
Dec 2011

Interpreting the implications of Lemon Test has always been tricky.

deacon_sephiroth

(731 posts)
11. I'll draw a picture so there's no confussion
Tue Dec 13, 2011, 05:58 PM
Dec 2011

State <----------------> Church

Somewhere on the let's say "right" side of the "wall" you have a massive army of jackoffs that think schools should be religous indoctrination camps, constatnly trying to smash the wall or "pushing on it" to use the wording of a previous poster.

On the, shall we call it, "left" side of that wall, they are not pushing on it at all, they are actually trying to plug all the holes that the army of jackoffs keeps putting in it.

uriel1972

(4,261 posts)
13. I find it bemusing that
Tue Dec 13, 2011, 06:09 PM
Dec 2011

In Australia that does not have the "Separation of Church and State" we have a much more secular society it seems than the US which does. Any pollie that goes on excessively about their 'God' is regarded as a bit strange, rather than admired by the general populace.

 

laconicsax

(14,860 posts)
33. I think the reason Australia is more secular...
Tue Dec 13, 2011, 11:51 PM
Dec 2011

Australia got the criminals, the US got the religious wackos.

 

MarkCharles

(2,261 posts)
17. Does your religion have dungeons as well as dragons?
Tue Dec 13, 2011, 07:46 PM
Dec 2011

Count me in if there's dungeons for those little kids at public schools!

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
20. I agree with your stance, and I will add
Tue Dec 13, 2011, 08:01 PM
Dec 2011

church-and-state separation protects both those who belong to minority-religious positions, and the religion itself.

I think most Christians wouldn't want Congress deciding what is Christian, and what is not Christian.

Adsos Letter

(19,459 posts)
38. I agree. Various denominations certainly incorporate
Sun Dec 18, 2011, 03:37 PM
Dec 2011

"what is Christian, and what is not Christian" in their doctrinal stance, and association is voluntary.

Having Congress decide between positions is an absolute deal breaker.

 

MarkCharles

(2,261 posts)
22. Taken from Newdow vs. Congress (9th Circuit No. 00-16423)
Tue Dec 13, 2011, 08:13 PM
Dec 2011


"[T]he phrase 'one nation under God' in the context of the Pledge is normative. To recite the Pledge is not to describe the United States; instead, it is to swear allegiance to the values for which the flag stands: unity, indivisibility, liberty, justice, and — since 1954 — monotheism."

From the majority opinion of Judge Goodwin.

darkstar3

(8,763 posts)
29. Our government is either representative of all, or it is not.
Tue Dec 13, 2011, 09:40 PM
Dec 2011

Complete and utter separation is the only way to acheive universal representation.

iris27

(1,951 posts)
32. My view, though it is not shared by the body of US court decisions on the matter, is that the state
Tue Dec 13, 2011, 10:30 PM
Dec 2011

has an interest when a religious belief causes one person to harm or limit the opportunities of another.

I wish for an America that went after known women-oppressing, child-marrying groups like the FLDS with the full force of the law, instead of allowing local police forces in places like Colorado City to be staffed entirely with FLDSers and become the prophet's personal enforcement squad.

I wish for an America that would've decided the other way in Wisconsin v. Yoder, and allowed all our children the same opportunity of education regardless of the faith of their parents.

I wish for an America in which things like "conscience clauses" were illegal, and those with strong views on the sanctity of embryonic life became podiatrists instead of obstetricians and pacemaker sales reps instead of pharmacists, because the law would prevent them from allowing their personal beliefs to ever endanger a woman's life or health.

I also know that wishing is as far as it will ever get.

LeftishBrit

(41,205 posts)
36. I'm for it; but don't care that much about the trappings
Sun Dec 18, 2011, 02:53 PM
Dec 2011

Britain doesn't have official church-state separation, and while I'd prefer if it did, I'm not intensely bothered - because in practice we are much more secular nowadays than many nations.

What I would prefer *not* to have, is political interference by people who are religious right-wingers, of any religion. There is less here than in many countries, but more than I'd like. It has rather little to do with the official church-state overlap IMO; the worst offenders tend either not to be Anglicans at all (Catholics, Nonconformists, Muslims, some Jews), or are rebels against the 'left-wing' Anglican establishment.

westerebus

(2,976 posts)
39. For myself.
Sun Dec 18, 2011, 05:19 PM
Dec 2011

I wouldn't go to a church to vote or to a court house to pray.

I'm mindful that Patrick Henery gave one hell of a speech in Saint John's Church in 1775.

I'm also mindful Martin Luther King gave just as great a speech at the foot of the Lincoln Memorial in 1963.

Some how we have managed to muddle thru with "shall make no law"...

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