Religion
Related: About this forumHere's a thread where you can state your views about church-state separation
Let's not have arguments in this thread. Let's just state our own points-of-view for future reference. If your views change, or you decide they need further clarification, you can always edit your post to update your views
I'll start:
I think Jefferson got it pretty much right: there should be a wall-of-separation between church and state. I dislike politicians yammering piously. I would prefer not to have "In God we trust" on our coinage, and I omit "under God" if I recite the Pledge. I don't think officially-sponsored prayers belong at city council meeting or at public school events or in similar contexts. I'd prefer not to see religious displays on public property. I think different groups should have equal access to public facilities on an equal basis: if the coin collecting club can rent the public school gym for an event, then an atheist group or a religious group should also be able to. My concern grows if public resources are used to promote particular religious views or if there is some governmental coercion involved or if there is exclusivity. My concern diminishes when there is no substantive material issue. There's always some grey area, which depends on exact context: in my lifetime, the US courts have imo generally handled the matter pretty well, and most of the US public has generally agreed with the courts
Thats my opinion
(2,001 posts)When the framers drafted the first amendment, they left it purposely ambiguous. There will always be those who push the line from either side. Maintaining a balance between establishment and free exercise has always been tricky. When i was on a city council I objected to opening prayers, and we finally did away with them, in favor of a word about values and democracy.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)The only push I see is from religious groups trying to get their religion to play a part in government.
Just who is pushing from the "other" side of that? Can you provide an examples of what you mean, please?
Thats my opinion
(2,001 posts)should not engage in public affairs. That religion must be solely a personal matter of prayer etc.
Thus, for instance, the religious led civil rights effort that ended in the voting rights law should have been out of bounds.
The push on one side comes from those who might seek to establish doctrinal (Biblical) law, thus violating the Constitution's establishment clause. The push from other side comes from those who would deny religiously motivated people or groups--conservative or progressive-- the right to engage in public policy debates, thus violating the Constitution's free exercise clause.
The desire to codify religious law (Sabbath keeping for instance) must be resisted. But anyone, religious or non-religious, has a right to lobby for ethical rules (economic justice for instance).
As the courts have held, the line between establishment and free exercise is unclear, and there is the inevitable push from either direction. Maintaining a barrier to establishment while not prohibiting free exercise is always tricky.
laconicsax
(14,860 posts)skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Can you point us to those posts? Can you show us that they actually mean that a PERSON with a religious point of view should be barred from public affairs, as opposed to saying that public policy should not be based on perspectives that are solely religious?
darkstar3
(8,763 posts)Holy shit.
As for your claim that people here want "anybody with a religious perspective" to refrain from engaging in public affairs, that's just bull. Ask any atheist here, point blank, whether they think a believer should be able to serve in ANY public office. You'll find they'll tell you two things:
1. Yes, because this is a government of and for the people, and all of us should have the same opportunities.
2. Just remember that since this country is not entirely religious, and more importantly not entirely made up of people of your religion, and since this country's government is secular, religious reasons are not enough to base any government decision on.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)"thoughtful" discussion ring so hollow. You made a claim (an accusation, to be more accurate), and when asked to provide evidence to back it up, you disappear (again).
Things are not true simply because you say them. Useful discussion is suppose to get us closer to the truth, and winnow out falsehood, but you seem to think that doesn't matter, as long as you come out feeling warm and fuzzy about everything.
Lint Head
(15,064 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)The problem appears to come in when discussing what to do about it.
Since you don't want any disagreement in your thread, I won't say anything else.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)religions and views, it's unethical to represent any one belief or religion. This is not a Christian country, much to the chagrin of the Repukes, who spend a good chunk of their time attempting to prove that it is, which is absurd and should be nipped in the bud whenever they start with that.
No religion should be promoted, no gods, entities, nothing.
Iggo
(47,549 posts)lazarus
(27,383 posts)I object to being forced to subsidize religion in this country. I feel religions should be taxed just as any other organization is taxed.
There's no reason they shouldn't pay income taxes and property taxes, except that the government is treating them in a special manner that is proscribed by the first amendment.
MarkCharles
(2,261 posts)consideration that happened when the USA was setting up the income tax laws, as well.
At the time of the initialization if the U.S. income tax, there were relatively few pension systems, no social security, and precious few services to the poor, sick , elderly and disabled outside of church-sponsored facilities, or simple town "poor-houses" or "poor farms".
I'd be curious of someone has done some research as to what the justification has been over the years for enabling churches to escape virtually un-taxed by governments.
TygrBright
(20,758 posts)--one is the one that you refer to: Churches historically did the works of charity that benefited communities, and in the absence of the Churches to do them, tax dollars would have to be expended either to do those works, or to deal with the consequences of NOT providing hospitals for the destitute ill, orphanages, halfway houses for released prisoners, "magdalens" for unmarried single mothers, etc. Therefore the tax exemption was a way of subsidizing those services without any actual expenditure of public dollars.
The second justification is more interesting, and harks back to English law and the early struggles of the evangelical Protestant denominations to enforce the separation of church and state. As the Colonies were under English rule, the Established Church (C of E) was invested with secular as well as religious power. Rather than paying taxes, taxes were allocated by the Crown to support the church, and the church could use government resources to collect its "tithes." If you didn't pay those tithes, you were unlikely to be considered for any public appointment, you were barred from holding many offices, and it was legal to discriminate against you in a whole variety of ways.
In the wake of independence, the Episcopal Church of America took over from the C of E, and was no longer allowed to use government resources to collect tithes. Nevertheless, the power structure in almost all of the Colonies was heavily based on being in good standing with the major church in your state. In spite of the separation clause, in the early days of the Republic quite a lot of institutionalized discrimination was carried out in favor of those major denominations.
It was during the early 19th Century that growing movements of small Protestant evangelical sects took on the issue of enforcing separation of church and state, as a way of leveling the playing field. Baptists, Congregationalists, and other groups were not "mainline Protestants" then-- they were outsiders, discriminated against by the Episcopal power structure. In fact, their establishments were subject to taxes and fees that Episcopalian properties and establishments were not subject to.
So in addition to crusading for the abolition of institutionalized discriminatory provisions for government appointments, hiring, contracting, etc., the evangelical Protestants demanded equity in treatment with the Episcopalians: the same freedom from certain types of taxation and fees.
I think we are more than ripe for some kind of compromise where the money raised by Churches to support hospitals and other charitable works is accorded the same deductability and tax exemption as other charities' revenue, money raised to support strictly religious functions is not taxed as income to the churches but is not subject to deductibility for the donor, and purely religious establishments (as opposed to homeless shelters and other facilities operated by churches) are subject to the same property taxes and fees as any other property owners. Multi-use structures (worship hall upstairs, soup kitchen downstairs) could be taxed on a pro-rata basis. The incomes AND emoluments (cars, houses, etc.) of church employees including pastoral workers, should be subject to individual income taxation at appropriate rates.
If churches want to put up religious displays, they can certainly do so on their own property. And if they want to buy airtime or outdoor advertising for their messages, they should be allowed to do so on the same basis as other advertisers. But such displays and messages in ANY public property should be off limits.
And if the owners of privately-owned, secularly-purposed public facilities want to display religious messages, they should be permitted to do so providing that they make equal display space available on the same cost basis to any and all faiths and to atheist groups. Owners of private property that is not a public facility (as in, my front yard) should be able to display any damn' thing they want.
With regards to religiously-based art, scholarship, and history in the public schools, there is a valid case to be made for allowing it to be studied, performed, etc., as an artifact of culture. Providing that material from all faith traditions and from atheist groups are accorded similar consideration for study as cultural artifacts, and no religious interpretation, involvement, proselytization, or other adjuncts are attached to the educational content, it's relevant and useful. You can't study human history and culture without some understanding of religious and atheist thought and practice.
And tacit as well as explicit discrimination against atheists has to be exposed and abolished, or all the cant about equal consideration for everyone's beliefs is so much meaningless hot air.
adamantly,
Bright
lazarus
(27,383 posts)I don't see our ever being able to tax churches, though.
I like your ideas.
Jim__
(14,075 posts)Jefferson's quote is itself based on the wording of the First Amendment:
His phrase is an effective metaphor for summing up the amendment; but I don't think it adds any clarification.
The Lemon Test consists of three "prongs":
- The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;
- The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
- The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.
I agree with the spirit of the 3rd prong; I just don't believe it clarifies anything.
MarkCharles
(2,261 posts)Decorating the town buildings, or schools with Christmas items, lighting a Christmas tree at the White House.
How about allowing all churches, religious schools, colleges, hospitals, etc. to pay little or no tax on their land and property, yet be afforded all services, from street cleaning to fire and police protection at no cost? Is that arrangement with city and state governments "excessive government entanglement" with religion?
Where is the line to be drawn as to what is "excessive entanglement" and does that go both ways?
Is a city's support of an Annual Santa Claus parade, or St Patrick's day parade, together the the costs of extra police and other city services "excessive entanglement"?
And, ultimately, who gets to decide these things? On what standard or basis?
Thats my opinion
(2,001 posts)Jim__
(14,075 posts)TygrBright
(20,758 posts)A six pointed star might be a Star of David, or it might be a decoration with no religious significance at all. Is a Christmas tree put up by atheists and decorated with shiny baubles and icicles and lights but no manger scene items a "religious" symbol or just a holiday symbol? Is drinking green beer and puking in the gutter a display of religious sentiment for a Catholic saint, an expression of ethnic/nationalist pride by an atheist of Irish descent, or an opportunity to behave outrageously for a neo-Pagan adolescent?
uncertainly,
Bright
darkstar3
(8,763 posts)First, every major religious group has a symbol they use to represent themselves, and I know that because they all keep showing up on "coexist" bumper stickers. But that's not even the point. If it's completely unclear as to the origin or purpose of the decoration/symbol, then it's probably not an attempt to recognize one religion over another. Reasonable people can agree that a christmas tree, sans angel, is too vague to be a religious symbol, and it is the same with a Santa, an Easter Bunny, a turkey in a Pilgrim hat, and many other decorations you'd find on an elementary school wall. In the same vein, reasonable people can agree that a cross, a star of david, and so on are widely recognized as religious symbols, and should be treated as such.
Thats my opinion
(2,001 posts)Interpreting the implications of Lemon Test has always been tricky.
deacon_sephiroth
(731 posts)State <----------------> Church
Somewhere on the let's say "right" side of the "wall" you have a massive army of jackoffs that think schools should be religous indoctrination camps, constatnly trying to smash the wall or "pushing on it" to use the wording of a previous poster.
On the, shall we call it, "left" side of that wall, they are not pushing on it at all, they are actually trying to plug all the holes that the army of jackoffs keeps putting in it.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Is beyond me.
Iggo
(47,549 posts)Church <--| |--> State
uriel1972
(4,261 posts)In Australia that does not have the "Separation of Church and State" we have a much more secular society it seems than the US which does. Any pollie that goes on excessively about their 'God' is regarded as a bit strange, rather than admired by the general populace.
laconicsax
(14,860 posts)Australia got the criminals, the US got the religious wackos.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)church and state
as long as it is my religion...........
MarkCharles
(2,261 posts)Count me in if there's dungeons for those little kids at public schools!
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)church-and-state separation protects both those who belong to minority-religious positions, and the religion itself.
I think most Christians wouldn't want Congress deciding what is Christian, and what is not Christian.
Adsos Letter
(19,459 posts)"what is Christian, and what is not Christian" in their doctrinal stance, and association is voluntary.
Having Congress decide between positions is an absolute deal breaker.
westerebus
(2,976 posts)When are they planning to accomplish this?
MarkCharles
(2,261 posts)"[T]he phrase 'one nation under God' in the context of the Pledge is normative. To recite the Pledge is not to describe the United States; instead, it is to swear allegiance to the values for which the flag stands: unity, indivisibility, liberty, justice, and since 1954 monotheism."
From the majority opinion of Judge Goodwin.
darkstar3
(8,763 posts)Complete and utter separation is the only way to acheive universal representation.
iris27
(1,951 posts)has an interest when a religious belief causes one person to harm or limit the opportunities of another.
I wish for an America that went after known women-oppressing, child-marrying groups like the FLDS with the full force of the law, instead of allowing local police forces in places like Colorado City to be staffed entirely with FLDSers and become the prophet's personal enforcement squad.
I wish for an America that would've decided the other way in Wisconsin v. Yoder, and allowed all our children the same opportunity of education regardless of the faith of their parents.
I wish for an America in which things like "conscience clauses" were illegal, and those with strong views on the sanctity of embryonic life became podiatrists instead of obstetricians and pacemaker sales reps instead of pharmacists, because the law would prevent them from allowing their personal beliefs to ever endanger a woman's life or health.
I also know that wishing is as far as it will ever get.
LeftishBrit
(41,205 posts)Britain doesn't have official church-state separation, and while I'd prefer if it did, I'm not intensely bothered - because in practice we are much more secular nowadays than many nations.
What I would prefer *not* to have, is political interference by people who are religious right-wingers, of any religion. There is less here than in many countries, but more than I'd like. It has rather little to do with the official church-state overlap IMO; the worst offenders tend either not to be Anglicans at all (Catholics, Nonconformists, Muslims, some Jews), or are rebels against the 'left-wing' Anglican establishment.
Adsos Letter
(19,459 posts)westerebus
(2,976 posts)I wouldn't go to a church to vote or to a court house to pray.
I'm mindful that Patrick Henery gave one hell of a speech in Saint John's Church in 1775.
I'm also mindful Martin Luther King gave just as great a speech at the foot of the Lincoln Memorial in 1963.
Some how we have managed to muddle thru with "shall make no law"...