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Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
Wed Nov 14, 2012, 01:13 PM Nov 2012

Woman dies after abortion request 'refused' at Galway hospital.

The husband of a pregnant woman who died in an Irish hospital has said he has no doubt she would be alive if she had been allowed an abortion.

Savita Halappanavar's family said she asked several times for her pregnancy to be terminated because she had severe back pain and was miscarrying.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20321741


This intrusion of religion is outrageous. Staff at the hospital refused on the basis that Ireland is a Catholic country. She wasn't Catholic and her baby wasn't Catholic. Now they are both dead, hopefully not in vain.
28 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Woman dies after abortion request 'refused' at Galway hospital. (Original Post) Starboard Tack Nov 2012 OP
Any bets on how long it will be skepticscott Nov 2012 #1
Let them. I'm ready to debate them. MineralMan Nov 2012 #20
While this is tragic, I am not going to jump to conclusions here until there is more data. cbayer Nov 2012 #2
Here's a little more info. Starboard Tack Nov 2012 #4
What is missing here is whether they ever felt the mother's life was in danger. cbayer Nov 2012 #6
"why" appears to be that they played safe, rather than considering the woman's health muriel_volestrangler Nov 2012 #13
Well, this case is getting a serious amount of international intention. cbayer Nov 2012 #16
I believe that Catholic Hospitals Dorian Gray Nov 2012 #21
how do anti-abortionists feel about allowing a c-section to remove the threat to the mother's life, unblock Nov 2012 #3
They wouldn't even give me a SONOGRAM for a 5 week embyro in fallopian tube HockeyMom Nov 2012 #5
Did this happen in Ireland? cbayer Nov 2012 #7
NYC in 1983 HockeyMom Nov 2012 #9
I worked in a hospital that did not do abortions. cbayer Nov 2012 #10
Wow Dorian Gray Nov 2012 #22
St. John's in Elmhurst, Queens HockeyMom Nov 2012 #24
Ah Dorian Gray Nov 2012 #25
Doing a C-section on a woman whose life is in danger Mariana Nov 2012 #27
well i'm not suggesting it except where it's deemed appropriate in terms of the woman's health. unblock Nov 2012 #28
"Her husband told the BBC that it was refused because there was a foetal heartbeat." rug Nov 2012 #8
If there was a fetal heartbeat, then the fetus was not dead and it would cbayer Nov 2012 #11
Ah, I misread it. rug Nov 2012 #12
And right on cue skepticscott Nov 2012 #23
Meaning? rug Nov 2012 #26
"She spent three days in agonising pain, eventually shaking, vomiting and passing out" muriel_volestrangler Nov 2012 #14
Those that participated in that *consortium* should have their licenses revoked. cbayer Nov 2012 #17
I'm very sure they were advised by RCC MineralMan Nov 2012 #19
They should not just be struck off. They should serve lengthy prison sentences, MineralMan Nov 2012 #18
As I said in GD, A Pox on the Roman Catholic Church for MineralMan Nov 2012 #15

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
2. While this is tragic, I am not going to jump to conclusions here until there is more data.
Wed Nov 14, 2012, 01:26 PM
Nov 2012

Abortion is legal in Ireland when there is a threat to the life of the mother. While their laws are an abomination right now, the medical staff could have proceeded if they deemed her life to be in danger.

Apparently they did not. Why that is is not clear.

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
4. Here's a little more info.
Wed Nov 14, 2012, 02:00 PM
Nov 2012
“The doctor told us the cervix was fully dilated, amniotic fluid was leaking and unfortunately the baby wouldn’t survive.” The doctor, he says, said it should be over in a few hours. There followed three days, he says, of the foetal heartbeat being checked several times a day.

“Savita was really in agony. She was very upset, but she accepted she was losing the baby. When the consultant came on the ward rounds on Monday morning Savita asked if they could not save the baby could they induce to end the pregnancy. The consultant said, ‘As long as there is a foetal heartbeat we can’t do anything’.

“Again on Tuesday morning, the ward rounds and the same discussion. The consultant said it was the law, that this is a Catholic country. Savita [a Hindu] said: ‘I am neither Irish nor Catholic’ but they said there was nothing they could do.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
6. What is missing here is whether they ever felt the mother's life was in danger.
Wed Nov 14, 2012, 02:07 PM
Nov 2012

If they felt it was not, they were bound by law to not proceed.

She died of septicemia several days later, which might indicate that they did not properly remove all the fetal contents after she miscarried. Either way, had she been here, the pregnancy would have been terminated much, much earlier.

I hope this provides some impetus for Ireland to revise their laws.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,154 posts)
13. "why" appears to be that they played safe, rather than considering the woman's health
Wed Nov 14, 2012, 04:07 PM
Nov 2012

Irish politicians have, extremely cowardly, refused to lay down in law under what circumstances doctors can act to save the life of the woman by performing an abortion. Because they don't care that much about the occasional woman dying, if it helps them avoid a political fight with a bunch of mad extremists (among whom arethe Roman Catholic bishops). And some craven doctors, like this collection of wastes of oxygen, can't be bothered to stand up for saving lives.

Here's hoping they have criminal charges laid against them. And here's hoping the group 'Precious Life' with their sanctimonious "thoughts and prayers were with Ms Halappanavar's family" get shunned by all right-thinking Irish people, and they spend the rest of their lives regretting their decision to support the death of women.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
16. Well, this case is getting a serious amount of international intention.
Wed Nov 14, 2012, 04:34 PM
Nov 2012

Do you think it might promote some movement in the legislature?

Do they ever perform abortions to save the life of the mother?

Dorian Gray

(13,469 posts)
21. I believe that Catholic Hospitals
Thu Nov 15, 2012, 08:38 AM
Nov 2012

in the US would induce if the mother's life was deemed in danger. What happened there was a travesty. Her final moments in life were followed by losing her pregnancy. It's terribly sad. The doctors and the hospitals should reconsider. The law should be reconsidered.

unblock

(51,974 posts)
3. how do anti-abortionists feel about allowing a c-section to remove the threat to the mother's life,
Wed Nov 14, 2012, 01:27 PM
Nov 2012

then working like hell to try to save the life of the baby?

and if the baby then dies, so be it, at least you tried?

or is the thinking that if it's too early for there to be any real chance of the fetus surviving outside the womb, then the mother has to take her chances?

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
5. They wouldn't even give me a SONOGRAM for a 5 week embyro in fallopian tube
Wed Nov 14, 2012, 02:06 PM
Nov 2012

No IV, No BP monitoring, Only a pregnancy test. My tube had already ruptured, not that there was ANY chance of c-setion on a fallopian tube to "save the baby".

"We don't do ABORTIONS" is what they told me. A simple sonogram would have shown my condition. You cannot abort something that is DEAD already. Plus, even if the embyro was still alive, it simply cannot BE saved. So, I should die, leave my already born daughter motherless, and my husband a widower? For a DEAD EMBRYO?????? "God's Will"? Well, heart attacks are "God's Will" and nothing should be done for them either.

Don't get me started on the Catholic Church.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
7. Did this happen in Ireland?
Wed Nov 14, 2012, 02:09 PM
Nov 2012

That sounds like malpractice, if those are the facts. An ectopic pregnancy clearly threatens the life of the mother.

Did you have any options other than a Catholic hospital?

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
9. NYC in 1983
Wed Nov 14, 2012, 03:23 PM
Nov 2012

I know many people said I should have sued them. My doctor had ordered all these procedures but they ignored his orders. He had a delivery at the time and came to the hospital after that, SCREAMING at the hospital staff for not following his orders, and leaving me unattended in that bed.

Before he ordered me to get to a hospital ASAP, he tried to get me into his other non-religious hospital but they had no beds. "I hate to do this to you (Catholic Hospital), but you HAVE TO GO ASAP". I had no clue at the time why he said that. Learned very quickly.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
10. I worked in a hospital that did not do abortions.
Wed Nov 14, 2012, 03:28 PM
Nov 2012

But we had an absolute policy that a woman who needed one for her own health would be transferred immediately. If a transfer could not take place, then there would be an emergency ethics/physician/administrative meetings. If the mother was in imminent danger, the procedure would take place irregardless of the "rules".

Glad you came out of that ok. Whatever staff did not follow the physicians orders for a sonogram was beyond negligent. A sonogram has nothing to do with abortion.

Dorian Gray

(13,469 posts)
22. Wow
Thu Nov 15, 2012, 08:40 AM
Nov 2012

Which hospital was it? (St Vincents?) I only ask bc I live in NYC and am curious.

I'm so sorry you went through that. The whole experience must have been painful and heartbreaking.

Dorian Gray

(13,469 posts)
25. Ah
Thu Nov 15, 2012, 10:58 AM
Nov 2012

My husband is from queens and used to teach in Elmhurst. So sorry you went through this at all. It's terrible. I'm glad your doctor came back and reamed out the staff. Going through a miscarriage is difficult. Going through it with a hospital staff who won't help you in your pain is inconceivable to me.

(I had a miscarriage in 2009. I know how much it sucks. Luckily, the hospital where I was seen by doctors performed a D&C without any questions.)

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
27. Doing a C-section on a woman whose life is in danger
Sat Nov 17, 2012, 10:06 PM
Nov 2012

is probably extremely dangerous to the woman in most cases. A C-section is major surgery. It really can't be a good idea to go cutting into someone with, say, a raging infection, or wildly high or low blood pressure. Not that I'm an expert, but that sure sounds like malpractice to me.

unblock

(51,974 posts)
28. well i'm not suggesting it except where it's deemed appropriate in terms of the woman's health.
Sun Nov 18, 2012, 06:07 PM
Nov 2012

presumably at least the risk of the woman dying without either c-section or inducing would be taken into account.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
8. "Her husband told the BBC that it was refused because there was a foetal heartbeat."
Wed Nov 14, 2012, 03:15 PM
Nov 2012

If the fetus was dead, it would not be an abortion.

I don't get it.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,154 posts)
14. "She spent three days in agonising pain, eventually shaking, vomiting and passing out"
Wed Nov 14, 2012, 04:09 PM
Nov 2012
"This is a Catholic country," was what Irish doctors told Savita Halappanavar after she learned she was miscarrying her pregnancy and asked for an abortion to avoid further complications. She spent three days in agonising pain, eventually shaking, vomiting and passing out. She again asked for an abortion and was refused, because the foetus still had a heartbeat.

Then she died.

She died of septicaemia and E Coli. She died after three and a half days of excruciating pain. She died after repeatedly begging for an end to the pregnancy that was poisoning her. Her death would have been avoided if she had been given an abortion when she asked for it – when it was clear she was miscarrying, and that non-intervention would put her at risk. But the foetus, which had no chance of survival, still had a heartbeat. Its right to life quite literally trumped hers.
...
Just two months ago, a consortium of Irish doctors got together to declare abortion medically unnecessary. They claimed that abortion is never needed to save a pregnant woman's life, and stated: "We confirm that the prohibition of abortion does not affect, in any way, the availability of optimal care to pregnant women."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/14/savita-halappanavar-medically-unnecessary-death


Those doctors should be struck off. They are a literal danger to their patients.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
17. Those that participated in that *consortium* should have their licenses revoked.
Wed Nov 14, 2012, 04:43 PM
Nov 2012

What they concluded is blatant bullshit.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
19. I'm very sure they were advised by RCC
Wed Nov 14, 2012, 05:04 PM
Nov 2012

hierarchy on this. It should go beyond license revocation, in my opinion. The woman begged for her life and they refused and watched her die of septicemia. How can any decent human being do that? And the woman was neither Irish nor Catholic. They murdered someone over dogma. Utterly reprehensible and untenable logically. Inhuman.

The entire thing is an obscenity.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
18. They should not just be struck off. They should serve lengthy prison sentences,
Wed Nov 14, 2012, 04:50 PM
Nov 2012

along with any church officials who advised them in their consortium. This is the 21st Century, not the Middle Ages. We know how to save the lives of women like this Hindu woman. She was murdered, even after begging for her life. Obscene.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
15. As I said in GD, A Pox on the Roman Catholic Church for
Wed Nov 14, 2012, 04:28 PM
Nov 2012

this travesty. Their dogma has killed yet another woman who was not even a Catholic. It is obscene, un-Christian, and the people involved in this should be charged with murder. Her life could have been saved. Now she is dead, at the hands of dogmatic hypocrites.

A Pox on the Dogma That Killed This Woman!

Please. If any Catholic on this forum wishes to debate this, I will be happy to take them on. These abominations should result in prison terms for everyone involved, including any church leaders who advised that women who were dying from a miscarriage should not have the fetus aborted. Whether that advice was for this particular case or general, they share responsibility for this poor Hindu woman's death. Her death is an obscenity, and is due purely to Roman Catholic dogma.

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