Re: Accepting a conqueror's religion... after they're gone

[NightWatcher]

I've been wondering for many years why people would accept the religion forced on them by an invader or conquistador after that invader has left or been defeated themselves.

African slaves that were forcibly brought to the Americas were forcibly converted to Christianity and the Spanish Conquistadors forced Catholicism on the original inhabitants of Mexico and South America. Plus lets not forget about the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades.

I understand why the people would go along with the invaders while the threat of death or injury is present, but my question is why, after they've left, would you continue to honor the religion that was forced on you? If you conquered my people and made me pray to your gods while you stood above me with a gun, I'd give lip service to make you believe I was playing along. But as soon as you were gone, so to would be the pictures or your deity along with all the references to the religion you had forced on me.

Why then are African Americans and Hispanics some of the most religious people in the US? Why did they keep the religion that brutal murderers and slave owners forced on them?

[cbayer]

1. I think some populations that had particular religions foisted upon them,

adopted and altered those religions to suit their own needs and beliefs.

If the African slaves found comfort and hope in the religion they were adopting, then it makes sense that they built upon it to make it their own. The christian message that all people are equal in god's eyes most likely resonated with them, despite what their supposedly christians owners were saying and doing. They also got the message that the least of us would receive the biggest rewards. The secret churches they established often became places to organize rebellion or help those who escaped.

In light of this, I don't find it surprising that the vast majority of African Americans identify as christian.

I would guess that there are similar reasons for what happened under other religious regimes.

[NightWatcher]

3. the brand of religion often forced on people is to accept their place and wait for the next world

and after they've lived a quiet complacent life on earth they will be rewarded with mansions and streets of gold. It's a handy way to keep a population from rising up to fight same said conquerors.

I'd like to think that more people could/would be aware of when they are being hosed and would not accept it.

You are 100% right however.

[cbayer]

8. But, in the case of African slaves, they rejected much of what they were told and used

it to strengthen themselves and their communities (as well as endure the torture they were being subjected to).

In the end, is that such a bad thing? Certainly did backfire on their captors to some extent.

[NightWatcher]

10. true, they did adapt it to serve their needs

I didnt think so much about that

[cbayer]

11. It's a great question and I thank you for posting it,

particularly since you didn't seem to have a specific agenda in doing so.

Welcome to the religion group (I say this because I haven't seen you around here that I recall).

[Nay]

5. What cbayer said, plus the fact that most of these people were subjected for generations, which

made the newest generations unacquainted with the 'old' religion. Most conquerors know that once you've beaten up a population for several generations, the younguns go along with whatever program was put in place.

Hell, look at the U.S. Wingerism has only taken one generation to stink up the place to the point that it's considered normal to say out loud that you shouldn't have to give a damn about anyone else but yourself.

[dimbear]

2. Although your question is rhetorical, I don't mind giving the obvious answer.

Your gods were defeated since they couldn't repel the invaders. The new gods are better.

Probably most Christians don't realize the tremendous effect this had on them. When the Jews returned from slavery in Babylon, they radically rewrote their religion to adopt the patriarchal stance of the the religion of their captors. Sweeping away the feminine side of their popular religion, they bowed from then on only to a male god. So does most of the world now.

[1StrongBlackMan]

4. Because ...

Why then are African Americans and Hispanics some of the most religious people in the US? Why did they keep the religion that brutal murderers and slave owners forced on them?

1) After the systematic stripping of all cultural moorings, including language and tradition, what was left?

2) In neither case of has the oppressor left or been defeated.

[freshwest]

9. +1

[cbayer]

12. Great points here.

[Vehl]

25. +1

[gaspee]

6. Because they are religions of slavery

Be good in this life and all of your suffering will be rewarded for all eternity!

Kind of convenient...

for the invaders...

Not to mention the elites.

[rrneck]

7. One's as good as the other.

They are all designed to do the same thing

[EvilAL]

13. I live next to a large MicMac Indian reservation

in Quebec and I have asked that question of quite a few of my friends there that are religious. Basically asking, even though they fight for everything they have lost or has been decimated; like language, customs, land and other things. Why are they Catholic and go to Catholic church? The one thing they don't try to get back is their religion, they see it as spirituality and believe in a lot of old tales and superstitions. I asked why they think the story of Jesus carries more weight than that of Glooscap when you break it down. They don't have an answer.

[cbayer]

14. What do you mean by "they don't have an answer".

I'd be interested in what they say to you in response to your question.

I would suspect that they either don't want to share that with you or you are not hearing what they have to say.

[EvilAL]

15. They mostly shrug their shoulders

because I think they realize that the Glooscap story is just a myth now, but don't want to admit that their ancestors believed in such nonsense. This is speculation, I don't press them for answers. They were raised to believe in Jesus instead of Glooscap and that's good enough for them. I've asked it of a quite a few people and always the same thing. They never blurt out stuff about Jesus being the king and stuff, they just don't have an answer for why Jesus makes more sense in reality as opposed to Glooscap.


http://en.wikipedia.org/glooscap

edit.. bad linkage

[EvilAL]

16. gargh...

havin a rough time with it..
hahah
glooscap
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glooscap

[hunter]

17. There's places all over the Americas where both the old religions and Catholicism coexist.

The people you talked to may have an answer, they're just not telling you.

I've attended Mass in places with a strong "Don't ask, don't tell" vibe about the native religion; in places where the two religions seem to be practiced openly and concurrently; and in places where the local native American religion and Catholicism almost seem to be hybridized.

It's not so different in the different cultures of "white" USA. Cosmopolitan Catholic Churches will be liberal and progressive, but in conservative areas the church almost seems to be competing with local evangelicals for political right wing dominance. My parents used to live in a conservative Republican community and the Mass there was not the same as it is in, say San Francisco or generally Hispanic California communities. I don't think I could stomach attending Mass more than a few times in a right wing community.

[cbayer]

18. I have found that most people don't talk about their religion or lack thereof.

Particularly when they perceive that a person asking them about it may be hostile to their perspective or not truly interested, just pursuing an agenda.

Those who wear their religion or atheism on their sleeve generally are not interested or have another agenda.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

19. The Caribbean is a great example

Santería and vaudun (voodoo) are African religions with each African deity disguised as a Catholic saint. Go into a Latino neighborhood in the U.S., and you're likely to find so-called botánicas, which have statues of saints in the front window and statues and ritual paraphernalia for the African religions in the back, as well as herbs and charms.

In Japan, you had the phenomenon of the underground Christians. They were converted by the Portuguese in the sixteenth century, when the notion of equality before God held great appeal for people living under a brutal feudal system. After Christianity was banned by shoguns afraid of being colonized, the converts went underground and held services in houses while outwardly practicing Buddhism. They even had statues of Jesus and the Virgin Mary that they kept inside statues of the Buddha or Kannon.

[Leontius]

24. Same type of thing happened in South and Central America

The Spanish thought that by building churches over native sacred sites they were destroying them while to the native population they could worship Christ in public while honoring their ancient religious practices without the priests being aware of it.

[EvilAL]

20. They have them

but they call them traditions, sacred fires and other things that were their older customs. They do not worship their old gods anymore because they prefer the Jesus story and they don't have an answer for why the Jesus story makes more sense. Like I said, I don't press them for answers, I'm not gonna try to bully them into a response in order to shove an agenda down their throats, I don't have an agenda, it's just an honest question that I think they never really considered. I only ask my friends these kind of things because they know I'm not trying to be an asshole to them.

[cbayer]

21. I believe you. You come across as an upfront person who wouldn't

try to bully or embarrass your friends.

However, I think their not answering question does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that they don't know. They might just choose not to share.

Hey, it doesn't sound like they are trying to convert you at any rate.

[EvilAL]

22. Maybe they try to

infuse the 2 into their life by keeping their traditions and their new religion, some are atheists, but still perform the traditions of their ancestors. The thing is I don't really think that after all they've been through since the colonizing of North America, their older religion means anything other than tradition to them. I'm sure their ancestors fought to keep their traditions and religion but lost, and through the generations they have taken our traditions and religion in, which I think is bad and I try to understand why they think it's ok that they lost their religion when they fight everyday for other things they have lost. Maybe they see it as the best of both worlds and that's why they don't really have an answer because it was never asked and they never really had to question it.

[EvilAL]

23. hah, no they aren't trying to convert me,

but that statement made me think of something. Even if they wanted to go back to their old ways they'd have to convert all the catholics on the reserve back to the old ways and that won't happen. The only hope they would have would be to discredit Catholicism, tear down the church and start fresh with the next generation, hoping they wouldn't see Glooscap as a myth.