Kirk Cameron: On faith, those gay comments, childhood stardom and a visit to Naples

[rug]

By BILL GREEN
Posted September 7, 2012 at 3 p.m.

- snip -

Tongue firmly planted in cheek, Cameron says of his time as an atheist that he's as religious now as he was then, "only instead of serving me, I serve God."

Cameron's conversion came around age 18. He says that when he examined what the Bible said, he humbled himself, and perhaps, was literally saved.

When you grow up on TV, it's hard not to lose your way, Cameron says.

"When I look at some of my friends ... River Phoenix, Corey Haim, Andrew Koenig — they're all dead. Drug overdoses, suicides. I'm glad that God took me in a different direction."

- snip -

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2012/sep/07/kirk-cameron-on-faith-those-gay-comments-stardom/

I didn't know he was once an atheist.

[HockeyMom]

1. Well, I am old enough to his MOTHER

and live in miserable, right wing, Republican, Naples. I grew up in NYC and spent 12 horrible years in catholic school up unitl 17. Did Kirk? I doubt that since he was a child star. While he claims he was an athiest as a "kid", I became an athiest as an ADULT. I've probably seen far more of life when I was in my 20s then he has in his entire life.

He can keep his religion, Republican views, AND Naples, Florida. I prefer the REAL WORLD of NYC, and not being PREACHED at. Had enough of that for 12 years of my life.

[rug]

2. I grew up in Manhattan.

8 years of Catholic grammar school and 4 years of Catholic high school. What part of NYC are you from?

[HockeyMom]

3. Manhattan

West Village as a kid (St. Joseph's) and West 21st and 7th Avenue as a teenager (St. Michael's HS).

[rug]

4. Great place to grow up.

I went to St. Vincent Ferrer with the Dominicans, then Power Memorial for HS. The Dominicans are running St. Joseph's now.

[HockeyMom]

5. Ah, yes, Power Memorial dances

at our "brother" school. Remember them very well. That is where I met one of their most famous grads, Lou Alcindor, aka, Kareem Abdul Jabar. I was a Sophomore. He was a Senior. Really nice guy. Very shy back then. "Interesting" how so many of catholic school grads turned out, if you know what I mean. lol

[rug]

7. The Gold Star Gym!

You and I graduated the same year. Lew was two years ahead of me, class of 65. He once went to a dance which was held in the lower church at St. Vincent's. Yes he was really, really shy. It didn't help that the ceiling in the lower church was low and all these teenagers were gawking. He was already famous.

[longship]

6. Sometimes a banana is just a banana.

Unless you're Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort who note that it fits in their mouth and is curved for easy insertion.

Note: It is also... Dun, Dun, Dunnnnn!... The Atheist's Nightmare.

See it here, and realize that, yes, they are actually speaking about a banana. No! Really!

[rug]

8. I'm surprised they didn't disable the comments.

[onager]

9. Some of us have always been atheists...

See?

[rug]

10. I see. The infant is able to form a concept of god which he rejects for lack of evidence.

[Goblinmonger]

11. No, the infant has no belief in god.

Thus an atheist.

Atheists don't need to reject a concept of a god. They just don't have belief in one. If someone was raised somewhere and never even told the concept of a god, they would still be an atheist even if they weren't rejecting someone's concept of a god.

[rug]

12. Then the infant should be able to describe that which he does not believe.

Atheism is specific nonbelief.

What you describe is simply ignorance: the absence of knowledge of a concept which, after examination, has yet to become a belief or not.

[Goblinmonger]

13. "specific nonbelief"?

Is this pull a definition out of your ass day?

So you are an atheist, then, right?

[rug]

14. No, and it's not pull memes out of your ass day either.

I've posted it before.

And no, I'm not an atheist. I've examined it and rejected it.

You should know that a-theos is without . . . a what?

[Goblinmonger]

15. Well you said atheism is a specific nonbelief

Do you believe in Zeus? Mithra? Seems like you have a specific nonbelief.

Unless your definition is shitty, you're an atheist.

[rug]

16. Please, that one less god than you meme is stale.

To believe in a God, but not Zeus or Mithra, makes one a theist but not a pagan.

It also doesn't flow from the discussion.

The topic was ignorance versus nonbelief.

[Goblinmonger]

17. No, the topic is your stupid definition.

You said atheism was specific nonbelief. You have a specific nonbelief in a god number of gods. You could just say your definition was stupid and be done with it but you're too stubborn for that.

[rug]

18. "stupid"?

A definition that upsets your neatly ordered concepts is hardly stupid.

I'll keep it simple for you.

A Theos is a specific concept. Zeus, Mithras, etc. are all concepts within it.

Now, you confidently assert you're an atheist and so is everyone who never encountered the concept of a god. By that logic, King James was a nonbeliever in radio waves: he never encountered the concept.

To return from the realm of startled absurdity you've led us to, the nonbelief here that is specific is the notion of a deity, not any particular deity. To have a nonbelief in god, there must first be a notion of god.

"What about Mithras?" is a stupid question. If you know what a Mithras is, and do not believe it, you're simply an a-mithrasist; it has no bearing on theism or a-theism.

It's elementary.

Be careful tossing around the word stupid, it can backfire.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

20. I'm reminded of a story from Quentin Crisp

“When I told the people of Northern Ireland that I was an atheist, a woman in the audience stood up and said, 'Yes, but is it the God of the Catholics or the God of the Protestants in whom you don't believe?”

[Goblinmonger]

22. No, A Theos is NOT a specific concept.

It is a general statement that the person has no beliefs in any gods.

YOU said it was a specific non-belief.

I am an atheist because I do not believe in any gods. Not the gods I know and not the ones I don't know. That is how A Theos applies to me. But that same A Theos would apply to someone that has never even encountered the concept of a god. Like an infant. Different paths and pasts to get there, but both A Theos.

Your statement that it is specific non-belief is just your own bluster to try an win an argument. And now, rather than just admit that you misspoke or whatever, you are digging in further and looking more foolish in the process.

[rug]

23. God is a specific concept.

To be without god, i.e., a-theist, you are without that specific concept. You lack that specific belief.

You continue to equate ignorance of god with nonbelief in god.

It's not me looking foolish.

And, while I see a persitent stamping of feet here, I don't see any bluster.

[Goblinmonger]

24. OK, now we are closer together.

Why isn't ignorance = nonbelief? If, as you state in your first sentence, you are a-theist if "you are without that specific concept (of god)," then why wouldn't someone who is ignorant of that specific concept also be a-theist?

It seems to me that you want to have atheism be a specific rejection of the concept which isn't the case. I've always felt that that definition puts too much credence on the belief rather than putting the emphasis on the fact that the person that is a-theistic just lacks any of the beliefs that the theistic person has.

[rug]

26. Simple. One is the lack of knowledge, the other is the lack of belief.

It is impossible to believe, not believe, or disbelieve that which you don't know.

On the other hand, if presented with an idea, a statement, or an assertion, one will either believe it, not believe it (a more passive stance than disbelief), or actively disbelieve it.

Whatever the conclusion, it is in response to that specific idea, statement, assertion - or belief. Hence, it is a specific nonbelief or, a specific disbelief.

If you hold that anyone, either actively rejecting a notion of god or completely unaware of the idea of a god - the infant - is an atheist, then you hold that anyone unaware of an idea is perforce a denier of that idea.

Ignorance does not equal nonbelief. An acceptance or rejection of an idea follows the idea; it cannot precede it.

[Goblinmonger]

27. I think the main difference between what each of us is saying

is that you want to see an a-theist as a "denier" of god whereas I am seeing an a-theist as one that just lacks the belief. It is not about denying the god but about just not having a belief in the concept.

[rug]

28. I accept this:

"It is not about denying the god but about just not having a belief in the concept."

That, I think, is the difference between nonbelief and disbelief. The former is one who remains unpersuaded, unconvinced. The latter is one who understands the concept and decisively rejects it for whatever reason.

In either case, though, the concept first has to be presented.

That's all I'm saying.

[Goblinmonger]

29. I can understand your position better, but I'm still not persuaded.

Though I think the difference between our positions is not that great.

I think that being without the belief can come from ignorance of the concept or from exposure and not being convinced/persuaded. A person who has never been exposed to the concept of a god is still a-theistic because they lack the belief.

But, again, we aren't too far off on this one.

[onager]

19. I just thought the baby was cute, grumpy.

Jebus. You seem even crankier than usual lately.

Try a long walk after meals. And maybe some prune juice.

[Tyrs WolfDaemon]

21. I get it now, Kids are waterboarded into religion - it makes so much sense

[cbayer]

25. Kirk who??