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cbayer

(146,218 posts)
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:35 PM Aug 2012

God at the Bedside and in the Boat

I spoke yesterday with one of my closest friends who talked to me about losing a friend and neighbor last week. He had been struggling with pulmonary fibrosis, a tortuous disease, for several years. It was a terrible loss for her, her wife, his wife and the couple's daughter, all of whom sat around his bedside massaging his limbs and talking to him as they withdrew supportive measures and titrated his morphine.

She told me that he smiled at them all and told them how blessed he felt to be surrounded by so many beautiful women. He talked of being at peace and believing that he was moving on to someplace where he would continue to exist without the suffering that had plagued him for so long. He left them peacefully, but all felt he remained in the room after he stopped breathing.

This man had done a remarkable thing for my friend. A year ago, she had acquired a pontoon boat as part of a camp purchase and was terrified of it. He slowly and calmly introduced her to the water. He taught her to captain the boat. He taught her to fish. He taught her to gut, filet and, finally, cook her catches. She marveled at his willingness and ability to invest so much time despite his rapidly failing health.

As he lay dying, he told her that he wanted her to have his small fishing boat. The pontoon boat, while good for a party, is not the ideal vessel to take out fishing. It is large, moves slowly and is difficult to maneuver. The fishing boat would be a new challenge which she would have to face without him, but was a wonderful gift.

With much trepidation, she went to retrieve the boat several days later. This would mean removing the boat from the water, trailering it and relaunching it near her camp. As she slowly proceeded, she sensed him there. She felt his encouragement, his love and his belief in her. And she was grateful.

While not generally a religious person, my friend feels that God was intervening on her and his behalf, allowing them some time to say goodbye again and share the thing that they both loved.

Now, it could be said that my friend's experience was a result of what she wished for. But, then again, who can say that she did not truly experience a blessed intervention.

Certainly not I.

To my dearest friend, I am so sorry for your loss and for all who are also grieving now. I hope your friend was right about where he is going and I hope he revisits you when you need his shoulder to lean on.

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trotsky

(49,533 posts)
1. I am sorry for your friend's loss.
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 12:59 PM
Aug 2012

But to use this incident as a way to essentially say "shut up, you rude atheists" to score a "win" for your side, as you are doing, is at least as rude and insensitive as what you think atheists might say.

IMHO.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
3. The Wisconsin neo-Nazi shooter may very well have felt god's presence...
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 01:19 PM
Aug 2012

as he carried out what he almost certainly believed to be god's will. Do you think it's rude and insensitive to bring that up?

Jim__

(14,074 posts)
4. A beautiful story.
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 02:05 PM
Aug 2012

We certainly don't understand death, and we can always learn from the loss of someone who is close.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
5. Thanks, Jim. I was very moved when talking to her last night and
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 02:08 PM
Aug 2012

in a way it was hard for me to explain.

Her description of his leaving was both heartbreaking and beautiful. One can only hope to have a similar experience, whatever it is.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
6. People delude themselves
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 03:29 PM
Aug 2012

in all sorts of ways when they need comfort and security. This is not news. REAL evidence for the existence of a god (which is what you're pretending this is) would be.

rexcat

(3,622 posts)
14. God sure was nice to this guy...
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 07:08 PM
Aug 2012

making sure he suffered horribly with pulmonary fibrosis. Nice to see the morphine was titrated (aka - euthanasia).

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
15. It was all part of God's plan
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 07:31 PM
Aug 2012

and we poor mortals can't be expected to understand it...except when we can.

rexcat

(3,622 posts)
16. It is such a lovely story...
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 07:44 PM
Aug 2012

all the way to the point the person had to be euthanized because of the suffering. Surely gods plan!

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
9. Thanks Cordelia. She's had a rough couple of years, but I think she is going to
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 03:49 PM
Aug 2012

be fine. She's a loving and kind person who has surrounded herself with other loving and kind people.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
8. That's a nice story.
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 03:48 PM
Aug 2012

That your friend felt that God was involved, though, isn't evidence of anything, really. The man had shown her about boats and very kindly gave her his fishing boat, which she loaded, trailered, and launched again. Perhaps she had been on his fishing boat at other times, and had observed the process. It's not a very complicated one.

She felt something, and attributed it to a deity. That's fine, and causes no harm. But, it's not evidence that such deities exist, other than in the minds of those who believe in them.

Similar things happen to people who have no belief in deities. People often feel the presence of someone they care about after that person's death. People also believe they feel a deity at work. Why would that be a surprise, really? The human mind is capable of creating almost any possibility and what the mind creates feels real enough. Religion is based on that. Deities are, I believe, based on that as well. We create the things we need, in our own minds and they have a certain reality to us.

The man who was dead was not there as she loaded his boat on the trailer, but her memory of him was. For many people who have religious beliefs, their deity is with them in the same way. There may well have been a real, living Jesus, too. The image of that Jesus varies very, very widely and is different in everyone. Evidence of that can be seen in the countless thousands of images created by people to depict that person. Each is unique. Each is different. Would it not be a simple matter for a real deity to provide an accurate internal image in everyone? I'd think that would be child's play to a deity. Yet, every image of Jesus is different from every other.

In one, he looks a lot like a Middle Eastern Jewish man. In another, he has blond hair and blue eyes, contrary to any possible reality. All of those images, however, represent the artist's internal image of Jesus. To that extent, Jesus is represented.

If you feel that a deity is with you, looking after you, you will have an image your mind created of what that deity is. It may not be a visual image, but it is an image, nevertheless. The existence of that image is not a representation of any real thing, necessarily. If I mention unicorns to you, you have an image of what a unicorn is. That image does not imply that unicorns actually exist.

So, yes, it is a very nice story, and the man influenced your friend in a very good way. He might have done exactly the same without a belief in any deity at all, and she might have felt his presence with her without believing in any deity at all. That both he and she did have some sort of deity image does not indicate that any deities exist. The images exist, but not the deity, necessarily.

Belief is not evidence. Images are not evidence. They may provide comfort or peace of mind, but those are not evidence, either.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
17. Sure it was
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 08:00 PM
Aug 2012

Otherwise, why the need for this:

But, then again, who can say that she did not truly experience a blessed intervention.

Certainly not I.


trotsky

(49,533 posts)
18. If not for that line, I wouldn't have felt a need to say anything.
Wed Aug 8, 2012, 07:06 AM
Aug 2012

But clearly it was quite passive-aggressively intended.

locks

(2,012 posts)
11. the tumultous waves
Tue Aug 7, 2012, 05:37 PM
Aug 2012

Thank you for reminding us that when death and suffering come to us and our loved ones, or our neighbors in Colorado or Wisconsin or Africa or Syria, we are often blessed and comforted by family and friends who support and love us no matter what "religious" (or no) beliefs they or we hold. And if they sing "Eternal Father, strong to save, whose arm hath stilled the restless wave; Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee for those in peril on the sea" we who are in peril will want to say Thank You.

pinto

(106,886 posts)
19. The night my partner Greg and I sat up together by the deck window as he died -
Wed Aug 8, 2012, 07:38 PM
Aug 2012

We shared grape popsicles. As the sky just got light Greg said, "He's here."

I said, "Who?" "Luke", he said. "Luke?" "It's Luke Skywalker...I'll miss you, Jamie."

"Bye Greg."

**********

I remember that as a beautiful echo of who he was, his world view as hard as it was at times, his success and his unconditional love for me. Thanks Luke Skywalker for welcoming Greg to whatever...



cbayer

(146,218 posts)
20. Aww, pinto, that is so beautiful,
Wed Aug 8, 2012, 07:44 PM
Aug 2012

particularly knowing how he struggled.

I sat with far too many friends who died of AIDS. Each went differently. Some were believers, others not.

And some, like Greg, had wonderfully creative things to say at the end.

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