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Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:46 PM

Dorothy Day--'a saint for our times'

From the article:

Dorothy Day died 38 years ago. Her life followed an unorthodox path – moving from rejecting religion in favor of activism to embracing Catholicism and integrating it with social action through the Catholic Worker Movement.
A hero of the Catholic left, Day found an unlikely champion for her canonization in New York’s conservative archbishop, Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan, who hailed her as “the saint for our times.” At their November 2012 meeting, the U.S. bishops unanimously supported her cause, and the Vatican accepted the recommendation, naming her “Servant of God.” If an investigation proves her life to be exceptionally virtuous, she will be declared “venerable.”


To read more:

https://religionnews.com/2018/12/05/dorothy-day-a-saint-for-our-times/

For me, this part resonates:

"moving from rejecting religion in favor of activism to embracing Catholicism and integrating it with social action"

52 replies, 603 views

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Reply Dorothy Day--'a saint for our times' (Original post)
guillaumeb Thursday OP
Cartoonist Thursday #1
guillaumeb Thursday #3
guillaumeb Thursday #2
trotsky Thursday #4
guillaumeb Thursday #5
trotsky Thursday #6
guillaumeb Thursday #9
trotsky Thursday #12
guillaumeb Thursday #20
trotsky Thursday #8
guillaumeb Thursday #10
trotsky Thursday #13
Mariana Thursday #15
trotsky Thursday #17
guillaumeb Thursday #21
Mariana Thursday #25
trotsky Friday #37
guillaumeb Thursday #22
trotsky Friday #34
MineralMan Thursday #16
Voltaire2 Thursday #18
MineralMan Thursday #19
trotsky Friday #35
Cuthbert Allgood Thursday #7
Act_of_Reparation Thursday #11
guillaumeb Thursday #23
Act_of_Reparation Friday #33
MineralMan Thursday #14
guillaumeb Thursday #24
MineralMan Thursday #26
Mariana Thursday #27
MineralMan Thursday #28
Mariana Thursday #30
MineralMan Thursday #31
guillaumeb Friday #39
Mariana Friday #40
bobbieinok Thursday #29
guillaumeb Friday #41
bobbieinok Friday #42
guillaumeb Friday #43
guillaumeb Friday #47
bitterross Thursday #32
trotsky Friday #36
Major Nikon Friday #38
guillaumeb Friday #44
bitterross Friday #49
guillaumeb Saturday #52
edhopper Friday #45
guillaumeb Friday #46
edhopper Friday #48
bitterross Friday #50
edhopper Saturday #51

Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:50 PM

1. I love Doris Day

Great voice.

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Response to Cartoonist (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:52 PM

3. Another day, for another time. eom

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 02:51 PM

2. From the same article:

Day’s keen sense of wonder at commonplace beauty remained a hallmark of being a witness to God’s love. Three years before her death, she wrote:

What samples of His love in creation all around us! Even in the city, the changing sky, the trees, frail though they be, which prisoners grow on Riker’s Island to be planted around the city, bear witness. People – all humankind, in some way.“


“the bay, the gulls, the ‘paths in the sea,’ the tiny ripples stirring a patch of water here and there, the reflections of the cloud on the surface – how beautiful it all is.”

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 03:05 PM

4. Was Dorothy Day a good person because of her religion?

Or was she just a good person?

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Response to trotsky (Reply #4)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 03:07 PM

5. She was, in my view, a good person.

As was A Philip Randolph.

Why do you ask?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #5)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 03:12 PM

6. Mainly because of this passage from the article you posted:

She went through times of deep personal sorrow. Her granddaughter, Kate Hennessy, reveals in “Dorothy Day: The World Will Be Saved by Beauty” Dorothy’s heartache of failed love affairs, including procuring an illegal abortion. The trauma contributed to her strong opposition to abortion after becoming Catholic.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #6)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 03:19 PM

9. What does this have to do with your question?

Does this strong personal opposition make her a bad person?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #9)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 03:29 PM

12. You're the one promoting her "social action."

I'm just pointing out that her "social action" included opposition to birth control and abortion.

Everyone should know the facts, don't you agree?

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Response to trotsky (Reply #12)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 05:01 PM

20. I agree.

And many people oppose abortion. Her position is in line with RCC teaching.

She was also a pacifist. Not all Democrats are pacifists.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #5)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 03:15 PM

8. Further information for those interested:

http://subcreators.com/blog/2012/11/24/dorothy-day-birth-control-and-abortion-another-form-of-genocide/

Here’s an extraordinary quote from Dorothy Day, Catholic radical lover of the poor and peace activist – who was also a post-abortive mother. It comes from a 1974 interview with Hubert Jessup on a Boston TV station.

Well, we’re living in an era of genocide. I mean, after the Holocaust…which led to the Second World War…which went on…War itself is a holocaust. And, we’re still thinking in terms of war—the whole government…how much of our taxes go for war…a greater amount this year that ever before. And, so we’re pacifist as well as anarchist…and…we do believe that there is…not only the genocide of war—the genocide that took place in the extermination of Jews—but, the whole program—I’m speaking now as a Catholic—of birth control and abortion, is another form of genocide.

There’s many theories about birth control, many theories about a population going to seed when they’re poverty stricken—a neglected orchard, for instance—it goes to seed…and, so, they claim the poor are bringing forth tremendous numbers of children, and the “solution” is to kill them off—the seed that is dead seed—by whatever methods they use: whether it’s intra-uterine devices, or the pill—about which they’re very dubious. But, I’m just saying that, when it comes to Mexicans, and Filipinos, and the Blacks in this country—they’re the ones who are multiplying. And, a great many of them believe that this is— the educated too—that the whole problem’s…the whole program of birth control and abortion, is a way of keeping down the population of the poor.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #8)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 03:21 PM

10. Did she have a right to her opinion?

And if so, you have a right to a different opinion.

She was a pacifist, and opposed to taking life, so her position is consistent.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #10)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 03:30 PM

13. "opposed to taking life" WTF?!?

Abortion is NOT "taking life."

That is a fucking disgusting anti-choice talking point and to see you promote it on a progressive site is repulsive.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #13)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 03:53 PM

15. Gil has told us before

that he believes a woman who has had an abortion has taken a life, and that she has done A Bad Thing.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1218247789#post18

I personally believe that abortion is taking life, and I believe that it is wrong, but I would not impose my beliefs on anyone who felt differently. I am prochoice and pro-life.


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Response to Mariana (Reply #15)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 03:59 PM

17. Well crap, I forgot all about that.

He puts out so much objectionable content it's hard to keep track of it all, I guess.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #15)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 05:03 PM

21. You mischaracterized what I said.

Read the excerpt that you posted.

I am pro-choice and pro-life. My position that it is wrong is a personal position. Others must make that choice for themselves.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #21)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 07:41 PM

25. I did no such thing.

You have some funny ideas, Gil. I put your own words up there for everyone to see.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #21)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 10:22 AM

37. How can someone mischaracterize a direct quote of your words?

Mariana even provided a link for anyone to go and investigate.

Add this to the long, long list of reasons why no one takes you seriously.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #13)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 05:04 PM

22. A nice call out,

for something, but my position is more nuanced.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #22)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 08:55 AM

34. Bull-fucking-shit.

Abortion is NOT "taking life."

If it is, then YOUR GOD is "taking life" every time a woman spontaneously aborts, which would make him/her/it history's most prolific abortionist by multiple orders of magnitude so how about you keep your judgmental nose in your own goddamned religious bullshit and stop trying to shame women by claiming they are "taking life" if they choose abortion?

This really disgusts me. You should be ashamed.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #10)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 03:53 PM

16. She was opposed to both contraception and abortion.

Contraception takes no lives, and abortion ends a pregnancy before birth. Not everyone agrees that it is the taking of a life. I reject her positions on both. How about you? Are you opposed to contraception? Abortion? Both? One, but not the other?

Do tell.

For the good work she did, I praise her. For her opinion on a woman's right to choose, I do not. Again, what the RCC decides to do about her is completely irrelevant to anything. She is dead, and does no more with regard to any of it.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #16)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 04:01 PM

18. Which of course denies women agency over

their own bodies. It is a truly repulsive and repressive position.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #18)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 04:36 PM

19. Yes. I don't know,whether she actually acted on that, though.

I just don't.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #18)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 08:57 AM

35. But according to g-man, we should praise her as a liberal icon.

Fuck that noise.

Thanks for your pacifism, Dorothy, but you can shove your misogynistic theology where the sun don't shine.

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 03:13 PM

7. We need some miracles from her first.

Being a good person isn't enough for sainthood.

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 03:28 PM

11. So, the part that resonates with you is Day joining your little club?

Not any of the good works she might have done?

Fascinating. Not surprising. But fascinating.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #11)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 05:05 PM

23. What an interesting response.

Please let me know exactly what you mean by it. I am uncertain.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #23)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 01:26 AM

33. It's your mess, Bill. You clean it up.

If I've misinterpreted your meaning, the onus to clarify is on you.

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 03:43 PM

14. Dorothy was a good person, Catholic or not.

I don't care whether she is recognized, sainted, or anything else. She did good work. We have a Dorothy Day center for the homeless here in the Twin Cities. I very much disagree, however, with her position on contraception and abortion. I don't know if she ever prevented an abortion nor whether she stopped anyone from using contraception. If so, then I condemn her for doing those things.

Her being a Catholic, I think, had not much to do with her character, frankly. Now, she's dead and can do neither good nor harm. What the RCC does about her is irrelevant.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #14)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 05:07 PM

24. I agree with her position,

but I am also pro-choice. My view, and that of my wife, is that each person must decide for themselves.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #24)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 07:53 PM

26. So you keep saying, Guy...

OK...

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #26)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 08:07 PM

27. Gil is pro-choice

but he feels the need to make sure we know exactly what he thinks of women who make a choice he doesn't like.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #27)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 08:11 PM

28. Hmm...It's easy for men. They never face the dilemma.

They never have to decide. They just cause pregnancies.

Men's opinions about the subject carry no weight whatsoever really.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #28)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 08:37 PM

30. Men don't have to decide

but some sure feel comfortable openly judging women who make a decision they think is the wrong one. Even some supposedly progressive men feel righteous in doing that.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #30)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 08:42 PM

31. You're right about that.

I have never caused a pregnancy. That's my choice. Even if I hadn't made that decision, though, I would never cause one that wasn't mutually wanted.

Even when I was 16 years old, I knew what caused pregnancies. It takes two people.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #27)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 05:30 PM

39. Your framing is not supportable.

But you feel perhaps that you have the right to state my views for me.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #39)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 05:36 PM

40. You stated them yourself, Gil, several times.

There's no need for me to "reframe" them. On this particular issue, you've made your views very clear indeed.

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 08:24 PM

29. Michael Harrington worked with her. His 1962 book The Other America led to The War on Poverty's prog

The info in this book led to The War on Poverty's programs--medicare, medicaid, food stamps.

A fascinating later book by him is The Politics at God's Funeral.

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Response to bobbieinok (Reply #29)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 05:42 PM

41. Thank you for this reminder. eom

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #41)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 07:05 PM

42. I remembered someone important was connected to Day. His name finally came to me

Then I checked the internet.

I remember the massive attention The Other Anerica got.

Like many saidz at the time--You're just NOW discovering there are poor people in the US?!?!

Like by 62 everyone (ie, middle class and up) had forgotten James Agee's 1941 book Let Us Now Praise Famous Men* with its picyures of starving American children. Or (positive spin) they thought that was then, during the Great Depression. Things like that aren't happening today in 'the greatest country on earth, the leader of the free world, etc, etc.

I remember that the info in the book apparently came as a great surprise to a lot of peoplr.

BTW, his book The Politics at God's Funeral is really good.

*I think I first heard of/saw the pictures in this book when people were discussing The Other America.

Agee's son went with his mother and her 2nd husband to live in East Germany after WWII. Her husband was apparently idealistic and like many thought that the communists were going to create a new, progressive Germany. Agee's son wote a fascinating book about his life there with his mother and step-father and their
growing disillusionment with their adopted country.

The book is Twelve years: An American Boyhood in East Germany.

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Response to bobbieinok (Reply #42)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 07:13 PM

43. Poverty in the US was ignored, as poor people continue to be ignored.

And poor people do not contribute to politicians.

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Response to bobbieinok (Reply #42)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 08:02 PM

47. Thank you for the 2 recommendations. eom

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Thu Dec 6, 2018, 09:40 PM

32. I find it difficult to believe anyone the RCC thinks is Saintworthy is a good person.

Perhaps the woman did good deeds. Perhaps she did a lot of good deeds. She still supported the RCC and all its regressive teachings and ideologies.

We sit here on DU every day and say that people who still support Trump and the GOP cannot truly be good people because they support such evil people. That even if they believed in Trump's message during the election there is ample evidence now that proves they were wrong.

The same standard should go for Ms. Day and anyone else. She supported an evil institution. A men's club that oppresses women and anyone different than them. With Trump we're two years into his reign. With the Roman Catholic Church we're well over a millennia and a half (I subtract the first 300-400 years before the Council of Nicaea). We know the history of the institution and how it has treated, and still treats, people.

Need I mention the RCC's handling of pedophile priests to make my point?

In case you're wondering, I think Mother Teresa was not really a good person either.

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Response to bitterross (Reply #32)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 08:58 AM

36. Great post.

Thank you.

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Response to bitterross (Reply #32)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 10:34 AM

38. The RCC uses the process as a PR move

Whenever they are getting a lot of bad press about the evil shit they are doing, they trot out a "saint" to try to change the conversation. It gives their apologists some ammunition.

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Response to bitterross (Reply #32)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 07:16 PM

44. She died in 1980.

So the part about the RCC cover up hardly relates.


As to her faith, she obviously saw the good and might well have accepted and understood that the bad must be changed.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #44)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 11:25 PM

49. That makes it SO much better.

She only had to look the other way with regard to the misogyny, the holy wars, the inquisition, the RCC wiping out entire cultures in ancient times.

In modern times there is the pervasive, physical and mental abuse of children in Catholic schools that goes back decades and decades. The fact the RCC signed an agreement a pact with the Nazis rather than vehemently oppose them.

No one in her lifetime, based on such things, could have possibly seen the fact the RCC is a criminal organization whose only purpose, for quite a number of centuries, has been to perpetuate itself and not much else. Pretty much the same as today's Trump Organization.

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Response to bitterross (Reply #49)

Sat Dec 8, 2018, 05:16 PM

52. That is your opinion.

I do not share it.

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 07:59 PM

45. What miracles do they say she performed

to play the Sainthood Game?

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Response to edhopper (Reply #45)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 08:01 PM

46. The title is an opinion.

And what you ask is covered in the article.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #46)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 08:05 PM

48. Ok

no miracles yet. I am sure they will find find them. They always do. Even for Saints that didn't exist.

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Response to edhopper (Reply #48)

Fri Dec 7, 2018, 11:30 PM

50. Someone, somewhere had an ingrown toenail cured, I'm sure of it.

When you write the rules for the game, are the only players in the game, are the referees, and judges in the game, you seldom have to worry about the accuracy or veracity of the calls in the game.

The whole idea of miracles is preposterous anyway. Belief in supernatural acts is just not reasonable in this century. Or the last one either.

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Response to bitterross (Reply #50)

Sat Dec 8, 2018, 11:20 AM

51. very true

And the level of "miracle' has gone from raising the dead to back pain relief.

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