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Fri Oct 12, 2018, 08:35 AM

Do religious quotes count as arguments if a non-believer uses them?

I just read an article about the Evangelicals and how they sold out their belief to Trump. The article started with quotes from the Bible how the Evangelicals have ignored all sorts of commandments and advise from the Bible.

And I thought to myself... Do Evangelicals actually give a shit about this?

Does a quote from the Bible really carry any weight if a non-believer uses it to show to YOU that YOU are doing YOUR religion wrong?

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Reply Do religious quotes count as arguments if a non-believer uses them? (Original post)
DetlefK Oct 12 OP
marylandblue Oct 12 #1
guillaumeb Oct 13 #10
Bretton Garcia Oct 15 #11
MineralMan Oct 12 #2
Doodley Oct 12 #3
tymorial Oct 12 #4
thucythucy Oct 12 #5
Act_of_Reparation Oct 12 #6
TlalocW Oct 12 #7
Mariana Oct 12 #8
The Genealogist Oct 12 #9
Iggo Oct 15 #12

Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2018, 08:51 AM

1. No, quotes do not matter, because religion is not a collection of Bible quotes

It is a set of beliefs and practices. They may claim to follow the Bible and use it as a jumping off point, but in reality, they are following the beliefs and practices of their particular denomination.

Which is how you got Southern Baptists who believed in slavery to split from Northern Baptists who didn't. Their practices were different due to economics, their beliefs followed, and when the divergence got too great, they split.

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #1)

Sat Oct 13, 2018, 06:55 PM

10. A good answer.

Actions tell us far more than stated beliefs about anyone.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #10)

Mon Oct 15, 2018, 06:15 AM

11. Quoting the Bible to Evangelicals, showing their sins, can have SOME useful effect

They claim to follow the Bible, but typically don't.

So when you point that out? At least a few will probably notice their own errors, and hypocrisy. At least, especially say, some of the ministers.

And? Other Christians will be more and more angry at Evangelicals. For their stupidity and hypocrisy.

Can't hurt.

By the way, I was a Christian for about 14 years or so (age 0 to 14); and I now blog with/against many famous PhD professional scholars, theologian, priests and popes, of Christianity. Where my experience - and a few Bible quotes - still go a long, long way.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2018, 08:53 AM

2. Probably not to most.

Non-believers quoting scripture are typically told that they don't understand the Bible, and that only believers can properly discern what it means.

That's just an excuse, though, of course. Those who are already ignoring scriptural guidance will just continue doing so.

You can quote the supposed words of Jesus, himself, to some, and they will come up with an excuse for not behaving the way their supposed Savior advised.

Still, it is useful to quote scripture to make a point about things, particularly hypocrisy, which runs rampant in evangelical circles. They won't listen, but others might.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2018, 09:24 AM

3. Yes, it is valid to use quotes, because it is about values.


Do they believe in the values of Jesus as told by the New Testament? Yes or no? You do not have to believe in Jesus to understand that the stories about him are parables to give examples of how we should treat others.

Do they believe that they should try to embrace those values or not?

Do Evangelicals agree with Jesus that we should cross the road to help others in need, like the good Samaritan? If so, they should believe that we should go out of our way to help others in need.

Do they believe it is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God than for a camel to enter through the eye of a needle? If so, they should reject excessive wealth and Trump's boastful claims.

Grill them about each lesson we can learn from the stories and quotes of Jesus, and how they have applied those values to their lives or their political beliefs.


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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2018, 09:32 AM

4. No of course not. Its the same as when someone with an opposing political or social view

presents you with facts to prove you are wrong. It doesn't matter if the facts are true, we will always dismiss them. This has been discussed and examined often by psychologists and social scientists. And no, party really doesn't matter. This is a human failing not a social/political one.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2018, 09:34 AM

5. It depends on the person with whom you're arguing.

I've had it go both ways: dismissed as not knowing the "true" intent or--and this is always popular--"that's a mistranslation of" the Greek or Aramaic or whatever.

But I've also clearly had an impact. Don't know if at the end of the day it changed any minds, but I definitely saw some wheels turning as it dawned that maybe THEY were the ones in spiritual peril.

One discussion in particular stands out--a long cross-country ride on a Greyhound with someone sitting next to me. It began innocuously enough until he asked "Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ?" I told him to stop right there, this conversation would only end with his beliefs shaken, not mine. He persisted anyway, and back then I was conversant enough with Scripture to take him on point by point. He was your typical conservative Evangelical--well, maybe not so typical in that he clearly was shaken by our discussion.

Finally, in exasperation, he asked, "How do you know that God didn't put me next to you on this bus to show you the Light?"

To which I answered, "How do you know that God didn't place me next to you to show YOU the Light?"

That shut him up for the rest of the trip. He was, I think, clearly shaken.

So like I say, it depends on the person.

Best wishes.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2018, 09:58 AM

6. No. But the beautiful thing of it is...

...they don't count when religious people use them, either.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2018, 10:29 AM

7. No, it doesn't, and it's wonderful

I have told so many evangelicals online and in person that if they want to know what the reason is for so many people declaring themselves "nones" and flat-out atheists, all they have to do is look in their bathroom mirrors. That their hypocrisy and often hatefulness, is forever enshrined on the internet for all to see, claiming to speak for God when it's most convenient and worshiping at the altar of Trump the rest of the time. I tell them to keep up the good work. With their continued help, we might just move on from bronze-age goat-herder morality stories.

TlalocW

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2018, 11:33 AM

8. I think it's best to assume they're living their lives

exactly as they believe they should do according to their religion. Anyway, the hatefulness and hypocrisy of Evangelicals didn't start with Trump. They've been hateful and hypocritical for a very long time. Remember, these are the same people who made guys like Pat Robertson and Jerry Fallwell so rich. It's only natural that the vast majority of them would support Trump. I wasn't the least bit surprised when it happened.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Fri Oct 12, 2018, 10:11 PM

9. I'll take your headline as a rhetorical question

as I am guessing you know the answer. The religious argument with the Evangelical will eventually end with "this person is here from the devil to test me." Seen it too many times.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Mon Oct 15, 2018, 02:24 PM

12. Yes.

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