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Fri Sep 14, 2018, 03:50 PM

When an initial premise has no supporting evidence,

all arguments based on it also lack evidence.

Almost all religious arguments and apologia begin with a premise that has no evidence to support it.

It's logical failure from the get-go. No amount of apologetic frenzy can prove the initial premise to be true. In fact, there is no evidence to support the premise that a deity exists or deities exist. None has ever been presented.

If the initial premise is not true, the rest of the argument fails as well.

There the entire discussion is, in a nutshell.

56 replies, 1098 views

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Arrow 56 replies Author Time Post
Reply When an initial premise has no supporting evidence, (Original post)
MineralMan Friday OP
guillaumeb Friday #1
trotsky Friday #2
guillaumeb Friday #3
trotsky Friday #5
guillaumeb Friday #6
trotsky Friday #7
guillaumeb Friday #8
trotsky Friday #9
rurallib Saturday #27
Voltaire2 Saturday #23
guillaumeb Saturday #24
trotsky Monday #30
guillaumeb Monday #31
Voltaire2 Monday #33
trotsky Monday #35
guillaumeb Tuesday #37
trotsky Tuesday #40
Voltaire2 Tuesday #41
guillaumeb Tuesday #42
Voltaire2 Tuesday #44
guillaumeb Tuesday #45
Voltaire2 22 hrs ago #46
trotsky 16 hrs ago #47
guillaumeb 12 hrs ago #50
trotsky 11 hrs ago #52
guillaumeb 11 hrs ago #53
trotsky 11 hrs ago #54
guillaumeb 10 hrs ago #55
trotsky 10 hrs ago #56
MineralMan Friday #11
guillaumeb Friday #13
MineralMan Friday #14
Lordquinton Saturday #28
uriel1972 15 hrs ago #49
Major Nikon Monday #34
guillaumeb Tuesday #36
Major Nikon Tuesday #43
edhopper Saturday #19
MineralMan Saturday #20
marylandblue Saturday #21
edhopper Saturday #22
Lordquinton Saturday #29
Major Nikon Monday #32
MineralMan Friday #10
marylandblue Saturday #16
MineralMan Saturday #17
marylandblue Saturday #18
Voltaire2 Saturday #25
uriel1972 15 hrs ago #48
qazplm135 12 hrs ago #51
exboyfil Friday #4
MineralMan Friday #12
Permanut Friday #15
PJMcK Saturday #26
Act_of_Reparation Tuesday #38
MineralMan Tuesday #39

Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Sep 14, 2018, 03:52 PM

1. So, when a person believes that there is no deity, based solely

on his/her own beliefs, the argument fails?

Agreed, if by failure you mean being unprovable.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #1)

Fri Sep 14, 2018, 04:01 PM

2. Misframing.

I don't "believe that there is no deity," I do not accept your claim that a deity exists.

You keep trying to push that phony definition of atheism because it's a straw man position and much easier for you to deal with. In your mind, at least.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #2)

Fri Sep 14, 2018, 04:04 PM

3. Avoidance.

Does an atheist believe that there is/are no deity/ies?

As much as you wish to avoid it, the end result is the same whether you say:

I do not accept you claim that a deity exists, or,
no deities exist.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #3)

Fri Sep 14, 2018, 04:05 PM

5. Hell yeah I'm going to "avoid" it because it's a straw man argument. It's not my position.

I'm not going to defend the straw man that you prefer fighting.

Put up a real argument, gil. Even though I know you can't, because this is the putrid weak shit that you constantly fling in hopes that someday it will stick.

Pathetic.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #5)

Fri Sep 14, 2018, 04:06 PM

6. Yes, your position.

I understand your position, and your agenda.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #6)

Fri Sep 14, 2018, 04:09 PM

7. No, it's not.

And no, you don't.

Saying "I don't believe you" is not, and never will be, the same as saying "I assert this instead."

You really, really, WISH it was the same, but no, it's not.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #7)

Fri Sep 14, 2018, 04:12 PM

8. Okay. I understand now. eom

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #8)

Fri Sep 14, 2018, 04:15 PM

9. Great. Glad to hear you won't be putting forth that phony position anymore. n/t

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Response to trotsky (Reply #9)

Sat Sep 15, 2018, 05:54 PM

27. good job!

It probably won't last, but at least for now the nonsense is ending.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #5)

Sat Sep 15, 2018, 11:47 AM

23. Fuck this. Fine I believe the stunning lack of

any evidence that your gods exist to be highly convincing. In all likelihood your gods do not exist.

You sir, on the other hand, appear to view the same complete lack of evidence for the existence of your loathsome gods to be a confirmation of their existence.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #23)

Sat Sep 15, 2018, 04:09 PM

24. Thank you.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #24)

Mon Sep 17, 2018, 09:59 AM

30. He was replying to you.

LOL

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Response to trotsky (Reply #30)

Mon Sep 17, 2018, 03:28 PM

31. Read the thread.

See your name in the replied to section.

Laughing indeed.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #31)

Mon Sep 17, 2018, 04:10 PM

33. Yet another example of confirmation bias.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #31)

Mon Sep 17, 2018, 04:50 PM

35. Read the thread, INDEED.

Yes, he clicked "Reply" on my post.

But he was CLEARLY replying to you. Why would he refer to "your gods" replying to me, when he knows I'm an atheist?

Laughing even more now... at you.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #35)

Tue Sep 18, 2018, 01:37 PM

37. Your reply is a classic.

The poster responded to me. If that was an error, admit it. Or you can fabricate a scenario to avoid the admission that I was correct.

Your choice.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #37)

Tue Sep 18, 2018, 02:27 PM

40. Read. The. Post.

Here it is, to make it extra super easy for you:

Fuck this. Fine I believe the stunning lack of any evidence that your gods exist to be highly convincing. In all likelihood your gods do not exist.

You sir, on the other hand, appear to view the same complete lack of evidence for the existence of your loathsome gods to be a confirmation of their existence.


At no point in this thread, anywhere in this forum, or anywhere on DU have I *ever* advocated for the existence of gods. Voltaire2 knows this. His reply was meant for you. He cleared up the confusion in post #33, re-asserting that the claim of confirmation bias was directed at YOU.

If this is the hill you've chosen to die on, so be it. This is probably one of your most humiliating defeats, and that's saying something.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #37)

Tue Sep 18, 2018, 03:58 PM

41. I was commenting on your post Gil.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #41)

Tue Sep 18, 2018, 05:38 PM

42. Here is your entire response:


Response to trotsky (Reply #5)
Sat Sep 15, 2018, 10:47 AM
Voltaire2 (3,979 posts)
23. Fuck this. Fine I believe the stunning lack of

any evidence that your gods exist to be highly convincing. In all likelihood your gods do not exist.

You sir, on the other hand, appear to view the same complete lack of evidence for the existence of your loathsome gods to be a confirmation of their existence.


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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #42)

Tue Sep 18, 2018, 06:25 PM

44. Very good. That is my comment on your post.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #44)

Tue Sep 18, 2018, 06:28 PM

45. trotsky thought otherwise. As indicated here:

trotsky (47,241 posts)
30. He was replying to you.

LOL

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #45)

Wed Sep 19, 2018, 03:38 AM

46. Very good. Yet more confirmation bias.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #45)

Wed Sep 19, 2018, 09:33 AM

47. He was replying to you, gil.

I was right.

You were wrong.

And you've humiliated yourself once again.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #47)

Wed Sep 19, 2018, 01:14 PM

50. I can only assume that you did not read my response.

And I am making that assumption for your benefit.

If he were to reply to me, why would he address it to you?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #50)

Wed Sep 19, 2018, 01:57 PM

52. I've explained this already.

It has happened to pretty much anyone who's been on DU for at least a little while, I imagine. Why, it's probably even happened to YOU. He clicked on the wrong post to Reply to. His reply was for YOU, not for ME, as he admitted in post #41. Read it.

Now do I need to explain this again? Do you really want to humiliate yourself further? I am not so stupid as to expect any kind of apology or contrition for your error and subsequent harassment of me, but we can draw this out as long as you like. You know how much I love to see you make a fool of yourself, so please, decide what you want to do.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #52)

Wed Sep 19, 2018, 02:06 PM

53. He never admitted to an error.

But nice attempt at defending a fellow member.

And, a nice demonstration of your own character.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #53)

Wed Sep 19, 2018, 02:47 PM

54. The post again:

Voltaire2 (3,981 posts)
41. I was commenting on your post Gil.


How long do you want to keep the humiliation going, gil? I'll go as long as you want to.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #54)

Wed Sep 19, 2018, 02:49 PM

55. Do you understand the difference between

"commenting on" and "replying to"?


Voltaire was commenting to you about my post, not replying to me.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #55)

Wed Sep 19, 2018, 02:53 PM

56. Alright, we'll keep your humiliation going.

There is no doubt he posted his reply to me. I have never disputed that. He clicked "Reply" on the wrong post.

But his REPLY is TO YOU. Read the reply, gil. He's addressing YOU because he talks about the god(s) that YOU believe in. I know this might be difficult to recall, but I don't believe in any gods.

Here's his reply again:

Fuck this. Fine I believe the stunning lack of any evidence that your gods exist to be highly convincing. In all likelihood your gods do not exist.

You sir, on the other hand, appear to view the same complete lack of evidence for the existence of your loathsome gods to be a confirmation of their existence.


Exactly what sense does it make to assume his reply was to me? Keep in mind, I don't believe in any gods, and Voltaire2 knows that.

Please continue.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #3)

Fri Sep 14, 2018, 04:18 PM

11. No. An atheist believes nothing with regard to deities.

Lacking evidence, atheists do not believe that deities exist. All you need do is produce some real evidence that they do exist. But, lacking that, the belief does not exist, either.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #11)

Fri Sep 14, 2018, 04:22 PM

13. Your first and second sentences contradict each other.

In the first, "No. An atheist believes nothing with regard to deities.", you claim that belief is not involved.

In the second, "Lacking evidence, atheists do not believe that deities exist.", you frame a belief in the non-existence of deities as being somehow different from a belief.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #13)

Fri Sep 14, 2018, 04:25 PM

14. No, sir, they do not contradict each other.

Goodbye.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #14)

Sat Sep 15, 2018, 08:42 PM

28. It's pure weasel words

And bad faith arguments.

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #28)

Wed Sep 19, 2018, 10:15 AM

49. I love the smell of Intellectual Dishonesty in the morning...

It's the smell of complex theology.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #13)

Mon Sep 17, 2018, 04:16 PM

34. Absence of belief is the polar opposite of belief

This probably wouldn't be so funny were you capable of being more wrong.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #34)

Tue Sep 18, 2018, 01:36 PM

36. Of course.

I accept that you convinced yourself.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #36)

Tue Sep 18, 2018, 06:20 PM

43. I accept you offer nothing more than canned responses

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #3)

Sat Sep 15, 2018, 10:14 AM

19. No

I don't "believe" there is no deity. It is not based on belief.
I see no evidence for it. I don't accept one exists based on facts.
I see no evidence for bigfoot or UFOs or ghost or ESP or Touch Therapy or many other things for which there is no proof.

These are not matters of belief or faith.

What i see is a Universe that is explained more accurately without any of the deities of any religion.

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Response to edhopper (Reply #19)

Sat Sep 15, 2018, 10:48 AM

20. It serves a purpose, I guess. Claiming that atheism is a belief

is a common thing among religionists. No amount of explanation seems to help them understand. That's why I think it is a deliberate claim on their parts.

All a guy can do is shrug and move on.

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Response to edhopper (Reply #19)

Sat Sep 15, 2018, 11:00 AM

21. The word "believe" should be banished from the English language

It's too ambiguous so it acts as a cover for fuzzy thinking. Unfortunately, we are stuck with it, so people will continue to take advantage of its ambiguity.

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #21)

Sat Sep 15, 2018, 11:45 AM

22. I believe

you are right.

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #21)

Sat Sep 15, 2018, 08:44 PM

29. I just posted a whole thing about this

Should be substituted with "accepted without evidence" because that's what it means. Also strips out the religious overtones.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #3)

Mon Sep 17, 2018, 04:08 PM

32. No

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #1)

Fri Sep 14, 2018, 04:15 PM

10. Why would anyone state that as a premise?

I would say, instead, "No evidence exists showing that any deity or deities exist."

A negative statement requires no proof and cannot be proven. If you have evidence of the existence of a deity, you can simply present it, and my statement will be false.

It is the same as if I said, "There is no such real animal as a unicorn." Unless you can produce evidence of a unicorn, the negative statement is true. However, if you state that Unicorns exist and live in deep dark forests, the burden of demonstrating the truth of your statement is on you. Negative statements have no such burden of proof.

Here's the thing: I would not base a logical argument on a negative premise. If I say there are no deities, nothing about deities follows from that, because no deities exist. There is no substance on which to base a logical argument. If you wish to have an argument about deities, you must first produce evidence of them. Otherwise there is no substance to your argument, either, since you begin with a different premise.



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Response to MineralMan (Reply #10)

Sat Sep 15, 2018, 08:45 AM

16. There is a difference between a scientific mind and a non-scientific mind

In science whatever statement of "belief" you make is always based on evidence or lack of it. It's usually implicit because there is usually a lot of evidence to look at. If someone with a scientific mindset says, "I believe in the theory of general relativity," he is make an implicit reference to the 100 years worth of evidence behind it. Likewise, "I do not believe in any deities," refers to the lack of evidence. In both cases, the evidence comes first.

In a non-scientific mind, belief comes first. "I believe in God" is a statement without reference to evidence. Supporting evidence, is either not required or comes afterward. Such people have a hard time understanding the scientific mindset that requires evidence first, they just assume everyone believes first. Their "belief in belief" is itself without evidence, and so they can't be convinced there is another way to handle beliefs and evidence.

This is not to say that all scientists use their scientific minds in religion. Many just leave it at the laboratory and are no more scientific in their religious life than non-scientists.

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #16)

Sat Sep 15, 2018, 09:49 AM

17. Yes, but reality is reality and truth is truth.

I know that's inconvenient, but oh, well...

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #17)

Sat Sep 15, 2018, 10:03 AM

18. Yes, believing without evidence is a bad guide to reality

I tried to believe that Trump is the greatest president ever, but the darned evidence kept getting in the way.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #17)

Sat Sep 15, 2018, 05:10 PM

25. Truth ends up, outside of closed sets and meta

languages about those sets, being remarkably difficult to define. In practical terms it means, for most of us, something like: beliefs about the real world that other people we respect have confirmed.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #17)

Wed Sep 19, 2018, 10:12 AM

48. Reality is Reality sure...

But "Truth" is a perception I find...
As long as there are two or more people I don't think there will be one "Truth"

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Response to uriel1972 (Reply #48)

Wed Sep 19, 2018, 01:20 PM

51. Reality is

A perception more than folks want to believe. Your eyes and brains don't take perfect pictures of reality there's a lot of stitching and filling in going on. We don't even agree on what color something is.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Fri Sep 14, 2018, 04:05 PM

4. Hitchen's razor

"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

Latin proverb quod grātīs asseritur, grātīs negātur ("What is freely asserted is freely dismissed",

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor

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Response to exboyfil (Reply #4)

Fri Sep 14, 2018, 04:20 PM

12. Thank you for that quote and link.

Last edited Fri Sep 14, 2018, 05:00 PM - Edit history (1)

When someone says, "First, assume God," one can answer, "I do not accept your assumption. Present your God for examination. What? you cannot? This discussion is over."

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Response to exboyfil (Reply #4)

Fri Sep 14, 2018, 04:25 PM

15. Great post..

And not just relating to discussions about religion.

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Sat Sep 15, 2018, 05:37 PM

26. I've always felt that Bill Maher says it best

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Response to MineralMan (Original post)

Tue Sep 18, 2018, 01:58 PM

38. Some think their positions don't REQUIRE supporting evidence.

It's like a Get Out Jail Free card for terrible ideas.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #38)

Tue Sep 18, 2018, 02:01 PM

39. Well, that is most certainly true.

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