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daaron

(763 posts)
Tue May 15, 2012, 09:06 AM May 2012

Lying for the Lord - Relevant to Romney's campaign?

As stillwaiting pointed out in this thread --> http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002685641#post83

"Lying for the Lord" is a Mormon doctrine.

Personally, I have absolutely no idea who the hell Mitt Romney is, and I honestly don't know how any Americans could with his track record, and THAT should disqualify him from the Presidency.

http://www.mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord


This seems like a topic needing some hashing. Hope I posted in the right place.
25 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Lying for the Lord - Relevant to Romney's campaign? (Original Post) daaron May 2012 OP
Romney's Mormon faith is one of the most edcantor May 2012 #1
Why did you say in the other thread that this is not unique to Mormons? cbayer May 2012 #2
I forgot I posted this. daaron May 2012 #3
This is what you said in the other thread: cbayer May 2012 #4
Thanks for the reference. daaron May 2012 #5
Ah, you were referring to these highly secretive, cultish groups cbayer May 2012 #7
Oh absolutely. daaron May 2012 #10
I have a deep and abiding distrust of Romney, but not because he is a Mormon. cbayer May 2012 #11
The real truth is that skepticscott May 2012 #12
Certainly not unknown among traditional Christians either: dimbear May 2012 #6
You are taking this completely out of context and misrepresenting it (which some might cbayer May 2012 #8
So which is more appropriate skepticscott May 2012 #9
That is a famous verse, hundreds of gallons of ink have been spilled on it, and yet dimbear May 2012 #13
Well, if christians can't agree on what it means, then how can you cbayer May 2012 #14
As a simple nonbeliever, I read the words as they are recorded. Selecting a dimbear May 2012 #15
Wow!! So you read them exactly as fundamentalist do. Thats my opinion May 2012 #16
In a sense you are correct. I take them verbatim to mock, they take them dimbear May 2012 #17
Is not your mocking an end? cbayer May 2012 #18
Certainly. End, purpose. dimbear May 2012 #19
Pious fraud looks to be a different topic. cbayer May 2012 #20
It's too much to ask of a religion that it admittedly and openly lies. dimbear May 2012 #21
I didn't mention it at the time, but the person I speak about here is a hardcore Catholic. 2ndAmForComputers May 2012 #22
In context... jeepnstein May 2012 #24
Possibly relevant: the Utah war.......Johnston's Army.......Buchanan's folly: dimbear May 2012 #23
From the Journal of Mormon History: dimbear May 2012 #25
 

edcantor

(325 posts)
1. Romney's Mormon faith is one of the most
Mon May 21, 2012, 09:55 AM
May 2012

repressive of all the faiths when it comes to the rights of the LGBT community, and to the general freedoms and rights of young Mormons especially.

But this is not unique to Mormonism. Several Christian sects and some Jewish and, of course, many Muslims think their own religious freedom is not at all inconsistent with limiting the rights of their own followers or of millions of other American citizens.

Romney just conveniently lies about or refuses to remember anything which might be inconsistent in his background or his strong faith, as well as what actions the LDS church took to limit the rights of Californian citizens in Prop H8.

Lying is a habit Romney has learned well, probably much of it he learned from his faith.

As the second linked article points out:

For the Mormon, loyalty and the welfare of the church are more important than the principle of honesty, and plausible denials and deception by omission are warranted by an opportunity to have the Mormon organization seen in the best possible light.


Just another reason why any thought of having Romney elected President is a very frightening prospect.
 

daaron

(763 posts)
3. I forgot I posted this.
Mon May 21, 2012, 12:56 PM
May 2012

To answer cbayer's question - sure, I'm asking questions about these things. I'm certainly not one to shrink from a doctrinal debate, if I think I have an informed opinion. Often however in public forums it's useful to find out where others stand on various issues, so that a well-formed discussion can occur, rather than an inconsequential flame war.

ETA: There are certainly any number of Christian sects - Christian Identity springs to mind - which adhere to similar doctrines. I have even encountered New Agers positing that aliens placed each race on its own continent. All of these religious justifications for racism are abhorrent to modern Western social norms, and should be repudiated piecemeal.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
4. This is what you said in the other thread:
Mon May 21, 2012, 01:10 PM
May 2012

"It's not just a Mormon doctrine, and is another aspect of religion in American that is relevant to this election."

To be honest, I sometimes have trouble following you, so I may have read this wrong. But the way I read was that "Lying for the Lord" was an aspect of religion in America not unique to Mormon doctrine, and wasn't sure what you meant by that.

 

daaron

(763 posts)
5. Thanks for the reference.
Tue May 22, 2012, 12:48 AM
May 2012

Wasn't sure exactly what you were referring to before.

Technically, "Lying for the Lord" is specifically a Mormon doctrine, but the concept itself is echoed in similar doctrines in other sects and cults - for instance the "Fellowship" (Family) is known to advocate a similar doctrine. Then, too, any fraternal religious order based on secrecy, from the Penitentes (Brotherhood of Jesus Christ, one of the oldest such orders in existence) to Opus Dei relies on lying to maintain coherence. Mormonism, historically influenced by Freemasonry, is merely an exemplar of the phenomenon.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
7. Ah, you were referring to these highly secretive, cultish groups
Tue May 22, 2012, 12:31 PM
May 2012

and not to the religions that most people identify with, then?

 

daaron

(763 posts)
10. Oh absolutely.
Tue May 22, 2012, 02:04 PM
May 2012

As far as I know, Mormonism is the only mainstreamish religion with such a doctrine. What I'm wondering in the OP is whether or not y'all think the fact that this doctrine exists is politically relevant - especially in light of the additional Mormon doctrine that prophesies that Mormonism will take over America by electing a High Priest to POTUS?

Combine these two - is there any reason to worry that Romney might actually be Lying for the Lord in order to become POTUS so that he will have fulfilled the prophecy? It's far out, I know - but then so are many Mormon doctrines. Do we take it seriously or dismiss it - or something betwixt?

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
11. I have a deep and abiding distrust of Romney, but not because he is a Mormon.
Tue May 22, 2012, 02:10 PM
May 2012

I have worked in highly politicized trade organizations that had Mormons in positions of authority.

My experiences with them were very positive. I could have been missing it, but it seemed to me that they were scrupulous about keeping their religion out of their politics.

And I'm not much into conspiracy theories, as I basically think most humans and human organizations are too inept to actually carry out these kinds of *mega-plans*.

My bottom link, I guess, is that it is worth being educated and aware about Mormonism and how it might effect Mormons in elected leadership positions, but I am with the Obama team in thinking we should not make it an issue at all.

Those who opposed Obama used it, and it was ugly. I prefer the high road here.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
12. The real truth is that
Tue May 22, 2012, 02:21 PM
May 2012

Mormons are about the worst at separating their religion and their politics:

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home2/53110048-183/mormons-utah-lds-party.html.csp

Their religion is about as strong an influence on their political behavior as it gets. Blatant sexism is only one facet.

dimbear

(6,271 posts)
6. Certainly not unknown among traditional Christians either:
Tue May 22, 2012, 02:05 AM
May 2012

Romans 3 7

"For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?"

Paul showing his actual cards..............



cbayer

(146,218 posts)
8. You are taking this completely out of context and misrepresenting it (which some might
Tue May 22, 2012, 12:36 PM
May 2012

consider a kind of lie).

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
9. So which is more appropriate
Tue May 22, 2012, 01:10 PM
May 2012

in a "meaningful discussion"?

A. Demonstrating exactly why the quote is taken out of context, and misinterpreted.

B. Calling the poster a liar.

dimbear

(6,271 posts)
13. That is a famous verse, hundreds of gallons of ink have been spilled on it, and yet
Tue May 22, 2012, 05:39 PM
May 2012

Christians can't agree what it means.

Excuse me for reading it literally. I'm a simple soul.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
14. Well, if christians can't agree on what it means, then how can you
Tue May 22, 2012, 05:54 PM
May 2012

make such a sure footed conclusion?

Many would say that it is a hypothetical in which Paul says that you might think that god permits you to lie, but in fact, god does not.

Proverbs 14:5
An honest witness does not deceive,
but a false witness pours out lies.

dimbear

(6,271 posts)
15. As a simple nonbeliever, I read the words as they are recorded. Selecting a
Tue May 22, 2012, 05:59 PM
May 2012

fine tuned explanation why there is no fault to be found there is beyond me.

Thats my opinion

(2,001 posts)
16. Wow!! So you read them exactly as fundamentalist do.
Tue May 22, 2012, 08:31 PM
May 2012

You may be a simple non-believer, but you deal with the Bible texts as if they were holy and pure.
I invite you to reread--if you have already in fact read it--my longish bit on the Bible.

A very different reading would not be beyond you if you are willing to use the good mind you obviously have.

dimbear

(6,271 posts)
17. In a sense you are correct. I take them verbatim to mock, they take them
Tue May 22, 2012, 09:00 PM
May 2012

verbatim to achieve their own perhaps worse ends.

Since you are a Protestant, you no doubt sympathize with my even having a Bible. For many centuries Bibles were kept out of the hands of the unworthy. Christendom would probably be better off if all my Bibles were burnt--it would be quite a fire.

dimbear

(6,271 posts)
19. Certainly. End, purpose.
Tue May 22, 2012, 09:30 PM
May 2012

BTW, while we're on the topic of deception, check the Wackypedia article on pious fraud. Quite a bit of good info.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pious_fraud

Interesting historical sidelights......

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
20. Pious fraud looks to be a different topic.
Tue May 22, 2012, 09:34 PM
May 2012

Those that use religion and lie to captivate others who actually believe are charlatans.

This OP speaks to an actual religious tenet apparently held by the Mormon church.

My objection here was to those who said this could be found in other religions.

Other than the reference to secretive, cultish sects and a single bible quote taken out of context, I have yet to see anything to back that up.

dimbear

(6,271 posts)
21. It's too much to ask of a religion that it admittedly and openly lies.
Tue May 22, 2012, 11:02 PM
May 2012

We have to judge them by their works. It's only here and there that we see through the cracks, into the inner mechanism. Like that slipup by Paul.

There are innumerable examples. A good one is the testamentum flavinium, or testamonium flavianum, infamous long maintained forgery which was exploded by a little good research. Even more outrageous, the ridiculous "Donation of Constantine." That shouldn't have fooled a child.

Yet -- you can still hear that very same falsehood (the testamentum) quoted today.

(Nobody has the brass the stand up for the Donation.)

jeepnstein

(2,631 posts)
24. In context...
Wed May 23, 2012, 08:08 AM
May 2012

Romans 3

New International Version (NIV)
God’s Faithfulness

3 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.

3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written:

“So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge.”[a]

5 But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6 Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7 Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” 8 Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!


Paul is condemning those in the Church who claim that their ends justify their means. Yeah, it was happening even in the early days of the Church.

dimbear

(6,271 posts)
23. Possibly relevant: the Utah war.......Johnston's Army.......Buchanan's folly:
Wed May 23, 2012, 01:40 AM
May 2012

In that little known corner of American history, which is the only time the United States of America has gone to war against a religion, it is almost a lead-pipe cinch that the Romney family sided with the Mormons against America.

It was a nasty little war, and all the casualties were completely innocent bystanders. That's the war which contains the infamous Mountain Meadow Massacre. Wackypedia has an article. Another interesting sidelight is that Brigham Young swore bloody revenge on the invading armies and then ran like a rabbit.

It's in the books.

dimbear

(6,271 posts)
25. From the Journal of Mormon History:
Wed May 23, 2012, 08:31 PM
May 2012
http://hickmanmuseum.homestead.com/Lonely_Bones.pdf

A grave indictment of the character of Mormonism's chief. In a notoriously fair and respected journal.

Long 2.2 M PDF, but an eyeopener for history buffs.
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