Signs of progress in religion?

[guillaumeb]

My wife and I attended a celebration service in honor of the life of a woman who recently died. We have known the family for many years, and the service was very inspirational both in format and content.

The family, and the deceased daughter, are/were mainline Protestant, and I was prepared for what I imagined that the service would be.

There were, as I expected, Scriptural readings from the Old and the New Testament, but there were also readings from the Koran as well as Buddhist sources.

The mother read from the Koran, and spoke of how Christians and Muslims worship the same God, but in a different fashion. The sister of the deceased read from Buddhist sources, and spoke of a spiritual journey.

When the Minister spoke, he embraced and agreed with these readings and the sentiments expressed, and spoke also of our common journey as theists in search of the Creator.

I live outside of Chicago, and this particular area is an island, so to speak, of GOP officeholders, in a generally blue area, so one might have expected the Minister and the Congregation to be more conservative in worship and sentiment, but this was more like a Unitarian service than what I felt it would be.

Thoughts?

[msongs]

1. how nice of the fear based religions to cooperate now and then nt

[guillaumeb]

2. Progress?

Or do you actually expect perfection of imperfect humans?

[SCantiGOP]

52. I expect rationality

Not perfection.
And I'm not going to congratulate religion for becoming slightly less bombastic and irrational.

[randr]

3. During the VN war the only religious sect that was not out every weekend protesting

were the Southern Baptists. Every denomination made a clear stand against the war.
When I see today's versions of religious cults protesting the wanton killing around the world again I may consider that they have progressed but, in reality, they would have only regressed back to the core principles they once espoused.
It is a good thing they are embracing other faiths, as in your experience. Yet, unless they recognized the common thread deep down that unites us all, they will continue to be a part of the problem

[guillaumeb]

6. The common thread of shared humanity?

Until humanity recognizes this, and is able to progress beyond the tribalism that divides us, violence will be the norm.

[randr]

10. Unfortunately true

[Voltaire2]

4. In general Buddhists do not believe in a creator god myth.

So, perhaps unwittingly, or in other words without sufficient critical thinking, the pastor excluded Buddhists from this “common journey”.

[guillaumeb]

8. I cannot speak for the Pastor, nor can you,

nor did I discuss this with him, however, as I said, he agreed with the concept of the common journey.

[Voltaire2]

12. Dude you spoke for him right here.

You communicated what your recollection of his words were. I pointed out that rather than this great ecumenical lovefest, the words you related that the pastor spoke excluded Buddhists, despite the fact that, according to the words you wrote, Buddhist thoughts were expressed during the service.

[guillaumeb]

13. He did not specifically speak of Muslims, nor did he specifically refer to the Koran.

But he did speak of our common shared journey. And this in an area that trends GOP. But I understand if you do not feel that this is progress.

[Voltaire2]

16. You seem unable or unwilling to grasp

a really simple point.

“and spoke also of our common journey as theists in search of the Creator.”

The Abrahamic faiths are on this common journey, not Buddhists.

[guillaumeb]

17. Are you unable to grasp my point?

[Voltaire2]

18. Typical.

You obfuscate divert distort and deflect, but what you don’t do is honestly respond to people here you view as your enemies.

[guillaumeb]

20. 6 accusations in one short sentence.

Is what I wrote progress?

Or do you only insist on perfection?

If the latter, expect to be endlessly disappointed.

[Voltaire2]

21. I pointed out one small problem.

Rather than simply admitting that the pastor misspoke, you went on your usual path of prevarication.

WWJD?

[guillaumeb]

22. Another accusation. Calling me a liar.

Progress, or perfection?

[Voltaire2]

23. Maybe you should runoff and misrepresent

this exchange in a separate op, and then follow it up with yet another complaint that the Atheists Badz are wrecking this forum.

[guillaumeb]

24. No, I will simply allow you to demonstrate both your values

and your commitment to dialogue.

[trotsky]

50. JUST SAY IT'S PROGRESS GODDAMMIT!

SAY IT!! SAY IT!!!

I mean, that seems to be gilly's main thrust here.

[guillaumeb]

55. Who damned it?

[trotsky]

57. OMG YOU TOTALLY GOT ME!

OMG YOU DID AGAIN!

AND AGAIN!

YOU WIN GILLY! I'M A BELIEVER NOW! YOU DID IT!!!

[guillaumeb]

58. OM who?

So close. So very close.

[trotsky]

59. EXACTLY!!! YOU GOT ME AGAIN!!!!

YOU ARE SO AMAZING GILLY, ANOTHER DEFEATED ATHEIST WHO INTENTIONALLY USED AN EXTREMELY COMMON COLLOQUIALISM WHEN MOCKING YOUR RESPONSES ON THIS THREAD!!!!

[yallerdawg]

5. Many signs of progress!

Remember when Catholic mass was in Latin and it all took place with their backs to the congregation?

If you touched or chewed the host you were desecrating the Body of Christ?

No meat on Friday was actually a public school standard?

Just a couple things.

Remarkable change!!!

[guillaumeb]

9. I do, and I participated.

In our area, the Mass was generally in French, except for the High Mass.

[MineralMan]

25. Those are all very, very minor changes, I think.

The Mass is still the same, regardless of language.
The Host is still a dry wafer that barely resembles bread.
There are fish fries here every day of Lent.

I don't really see any real change in any of those things.

[yallerdawg]

26. After centuries of tradition?

In one of the most rigid religious institutions of all time?

Next you'll tell me the Guttenberg Press made no impact.

[MineralMan]

27. Especially after centuries of tradition.

The RCC has been almost unbelievably stable, actually. Internally, at least. The Reformation splintered off part of it, of course. Now that has led to real change. The RCC hasn't changed in any material way, really.

[yallerdawg]

28. Second Vatican Council?

The Council was instrumental for renewal in the self-understanding of the Church, its inner life and its relationship to other Christian traditions, other religions and the world. Those participating in or who lived through the time of the Council felt a profound, exhilarating sense of renewal and virtually experienced a new Pentecost. Pope John XXIII set the tone when opening the Council:

The Church should never depart from the sacred treasure of truth inherited from the Fathers. But at the same time she must ever look to the present, to the new conditions and the new forms of life introduced into the modern world.

http://vatican2voice.org/default.htm

[MineralMan]

29. Yes, I remember that well.

I didn't see a lot of change in it then, either.

But, I look at the RCC from outside of it. Maybe that makes a difference....

[yallerdawg]

30. From the 'outside'...it might make all the difference in the world.

[guillaumeb]

33. The symbolism of the Mass and the host have not changed.

Real change is evident.

[MineralMan]

36. That's great. So, now, women will have

the right to reproductive choice and representation in church hierarchy. LGBTQ marriages will be celebrated by priests, too. Terrific...

[SCantiGOP]

54. and,

you still get to eat your god at every service!

[MineralMan]

56. No, thanks. I gave up cannibalism for Lent decades ago.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

32. Catholics are still supposed to give up meat on all Fridays.

If they do eat meat, they are supposed to give up something else. Most just remember or pay attention to the "you don't have to give up meat on Friday" and don't bother with the other part of the rule change.

[yallerdawg]

35. As Captain Jack Sparrow often says:

"They're more guidelines than rules."

It was easier to abstain when everybody did it!

Besides, what good is the confessional if you have nothing to confess?

[MineralMan]

7. No secular readings? Little progress, then...

I've given those at funerals held in Lutheran churches. One of the ones I use often is by Margaret Mead:

Remember Me
by
Margaret Mead

Remember Me:
To the living, I am gone.
To the sorrowful, I will never return.
To the angry, I was cheated,
But to the happy, I am at peace,
And to the faithful, I have never left.
I cannot be seen, but I can be heard.
So as you stand upon a shore, gazing at a beautiful sea - remember me.
As you look in awe at a mighty forest and its grand majesty - remember me.
As you look upon a flower and admire its simplicity - remember me.
Remember me in your heart, your thoughts, your memories of the times we loved,
the times we cried, the times we fought, the times we laughed.
For if you always think of me, I will never be gone.

[guillaumeb]

11. Khalil Gibran was read, as well as some poems.

The example, the poem that you provided, is a very nice one indeed.

We do indeed live on in the memories of those we leave.

[MineralMan]

14. I see. You didn't mention those.

Oh, well...

[guillaumeb]

15. No, I did not claim to present a transcript.

Nor did I. I gave an edited version of a one hour service. And spoke of what I personally see as progress.

[MineralMan]

19. Yes, OK, then...

[njhoneybadger]

31. You are right it is progress. But this tolerance of other faiths and beliefs are not embraced

By the religious right and never will be. It is a type of Humanism.The progress you speak of is for the turning away from religious dogma and embracing a shared common life experience.

[guillaumeb]

34. One can hope that the religious right,

and conservatives in general, will embrace this tolerance.

I have a friend who is a Baptist minister. He is more tolerant and open than his father.

[Act_of_Reparation]

37. Signs of progress in religion?

No. One church in one community in one state is hardly predictive of a general trend.

[guillaumeb]

40. An oak tree grows from an acorn.

But it does not grow overnight. Except in fairy stories of Jack and a bean stalk.

[trotsky]

61. FFS your religion in particular has had almost 2000 years to get its shit together.

How much longer is it gonna take?

[guillaumeb]

63. An eternity?

How long will it take for humans to evolve beyond violence?

[trotsky]

73. So your religion doesn't help at all, huh?

Might even make it worse - hardening hearts because people sincerely believe they are doing what their creator wants, and that their faith trumps anything else. That their behavior is justified, because their god will reward them for their atrocious behavior.

[guillaumeb]

77. Your constant theme.

It does not improve with repetition.

[trotsky]

78. Since you can't refute it, you're going to see it again.

And again.

[guillaumeb]

79. No need to refute the indefensible.

But feel free to repeat it if it makes you feel that proves something.

[trotsky]

80. In that case it should be the easiest thing in the world to refute.

Quite telling that you can't.

You'll see it again.

[Act_of_Reparation]

75. "Evolve"?

I thought we had free will.

[Act_of_Reparation]

70. Most acorns don't become oak trees.

Most get eaten. Maybe you should choose another analogy.

[guillaumeb]

72. No, the analogy works.

Except for those who demand perfection of others.

[Act_of_Reparation]

74. "Perfection"

I don't think it means what you think it means.

[trotsky]

38. What a sad, sorry state for religion...

that simply acting like decent human beings to each other needs to be celebrated as "progress."

Want to know why so many of us don't like religion? That's it, right there.

[MineralMan]

39. You are correct.

Extreme Southern Baptists have stopped regularly lynching people of color. They're still racists, but that's "progress..."

Sounds like bullshit to me.

[trotsky]

45. But see that's not what our friend gilly demands.

To him, the Religion forum is where everyone must chime in to support positive news concerning religion. We must all clap and be so proud of the progress being made. Anyone not properly genuflecting is targeted.

[TwistOneUp]

76. They have stopped lynching people of color..

Instead, they now lynch LGBT peeps.

Hate is hate,. Racism, bigotry, misogny, anti-semitism/islam, and homo/transphobia all have one thing in common: prejudice. And *most* religious institutions use some forms of prejudice as fundraising topics.

Consider, if you will, how religious institutions raise funds: weddings, funerals, and the occasional speech won't make payday. The majority of their funds come from the membership, many of whom attend services because they are "troubled". Why? Because either they are or their kid is gay/trans, their daughter is pregnant, or there is some other "immoral/sinful" thing happening. If being gay/trans is not a sin, if abortion (before the blastocyte/foetus becomes viable) is not "taking a life", then THEY LOSE FUNDING. By dividing peeps over "topics" and using 2000 year old phrasing to buttress their allegations, they can manipulate peeps to donate.

A church in Wheaton fired a female minister of color because, when she wore a hijab to school and they complained, she replied, "we all worship the same god". No, they said, the christian god is not the same as the muslim god.

It's time for the various religions to unite peeps, rather than divide peeps. But of course, that will also cut into their funding, so that's also "off the table".

"Aye, there's the rub."
--Shakespeare

Follow the money and you'll eventually conclude that faith/belief in diety/-ies is best practiced as an individual, without a formal "religion". It's analogous to Lite beer: More fulfilling, less troubling.

[guillaumeb]

41. So it is NOT progress?

Or do you expect perfection?

[trotsky]

42. As you have claimed in the past, religion gives people an IDEAL morality.

You've defined it as perfection. So yes, I expect perfection. You promised it.

[guillaumeb]

43. So it is NOT progress?

[trotsky]

44. You asked if I expect perfection.

It is your claim that religion gives people an ideal morality.

So based on your claim, yes, I expect perfection.

[Mariana]

46. We don't know if it's progress.

Do you think the minister is unique? Do you imagine this is the first kind, loving, tolerant, and inclusive clergyman ever to exist? Perhaps it has been your experience that all members of the clergy are unkind, hateful, intolerant, and exclusive, but it has not been mine. I have known many kind, loving, tolerant and inclusive clergy. Therefore, I fail to see how the existence of this particular one is indicative of progress in religion.

[guillaumeb]

47. From the post:

I live outside of Chicago, and this particular area is an island, so to speak, of GOP officeholders, in a generally blue area, so one might have expected the Minister and the Congregation to be more conservative in worship and sentiment, but this was more like a Unitarian service than what I felt it would be.

A GOP area. And THAT was what I referred to as "signs of progress".

[Mariana]

48. That's nice.

I've lived in places like that, in Alabama, Georgia, and Texas. In all of them, it was possible to find kind, loving, tolerant and inclusive clergy. The hateful and intolerant certainly had much bigger congregations and much more political clout, but they never had a monopoly.

[guillaumeb]

49. True.

Regrettable, but human nature.

[brokephibroke]

51. Get out of Wheaton! LOL

You can find progress in religion if you look. The problem is fundies, they need to be marginalized for us all to progress.

[guillaumeb]

53. Professor Hawkins?

Yes, an excellent example.

[Mariana]

71. Marginalized by whom?

Other Christians don't seem to be much interested in doing it. So many are loath to "condemn a brother of the faith" under any circumstances.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

60. One service incorporating readings from other belief systems

is hardly a sign of anything other than the people who planned that service chose to include those things.

[guillaumeb]

62. If you need to feel that way, I can only imagine that it fits

a narrative that you personally prefer to hear.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

64. As compared to the narrative you've constructed based

on one and only one example.

[guillaumeb]

65. I have posted many over the last year.

Each is rejected as "not enough", or "too late" and a variety of other things. And again, I understand that you need this.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

66. You do understand that anecdotes are not data?

[guillaumeb]

67. I understand your position.

Really, I do. But each anecdote is a brick to be used.

[MineralMan]

68. Bricks are useful. You can build a cozy house

or a warm fireplace with them. Or you can build a wall to exclude people. If all else fails, you can even throw one through a stained glass window. Bricks have many uses.

[Voltaire2]

69. Not only that, but as I pointed out earlier

the pastor, while attempting to be inclusive, managed to exclude Buddhists from his “common path”. Presumably because he hadn’t a clue about Buddhism.