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Thu Dec 7, 2017, 11:37 AM

Where have you looked for God, and what were you looking for?

Often one can read a response from an atheist about looking for a deity and not finding any deity, or not finding any evidence of a deity. As if this statement somehow has any probative value in a discussion concerning the existence or non-existence of a deity.

But if you are a non-theist, or an agnostic, have you looked for God?

If you have, was it an intellectual search?

Was it a physical search?

If one were to do a physical search, where would one look?

If one were to do a physical search, what would one look for?

Would one look for a humanoid shaped being, continuing a long human tradition of anthropomorphizing deities?

Would one look for a sentient cloud of energy inhabiting an immense region of space?

173 replies, 2215 views

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Reply Where have you looked for God, and what were you looking for? (Original post)
guillaumeb Dec 7 OP
saidsimplesimon Dec 7 #1
guillaumeb Dec 7 #2
saidsimplesimon Dec 7 #3
Bretton Garcia Friday #61
trotsky Dec 7 #4
guillaumeb Dec 7 #6
trotsky Dec 7 #19
guillaumeb Dec 7 #20
trotsky Dec 7 #21
guillaumeb Dec 7 #22
trotsky Dec 7 #23
guillaumeb Dec 7 #24
trotsky Dec 7 #25
guillaumeb Dec 7 #26
trotsky Friday #49
trotsky Wednesday #160
Act_of_Reparation Wednesday #162
guillaumeb Wednesday #163
trotsky 7 hrs ago #165
guillaumeb 4 hrs ago #167
trotsky 3 hrs ago #168
guillaumeb 3 hrs ago #169
trotsky 3 hrs ago #170
guillaumeb 3 hrs ago #171
trotsky 3 hrs ago #172
guillaumeb 43 min ago #173
Bretton Garcia Friday #62
guillaumeb Friday #67
MineralMan Dec 7 #5
guillaumeb Dec 7 #7
MineralMan Dec 7 #8
guillaumeb Dec 7 #10
MineralMan Dec 7 #14
guillaumeb Dec 7 #15
MineralMan Dec 7 #16
guillaumeb Dec 7 #17
MineralMan Dec 7 #18
marylandblue Dec 7 #45
guillaumeb Friday #78
marylandblue Friday #83
Lordquinton Friday #74
WhiteTara Sunday #119
Cartoonist Dec 7 #9
guillaumeb Dec 7 #12
Cartoonist Dec 7 #33
guillaumeb Dec 7 #38
Cartoonist Dec 7 #43
guillaumeb Friday #66
Cartoonist Friday #69
guillaumeb Friday #70
Cartoonist Friday #84
guillaumeb Friday #85
Cartoonist Saturday #86
guillaumeb Saturday #88
Cartoonist Sunday #114
guillaumeb Tuesday #139
Bretton Garcia Friday #63
Mariana Friday #65
Bretton Garcia Saturday #87
Lordquinton Friday #73
WestMichRad Dec 7 #11
guillaumeb Dec 7 #13
WestMichRad Dec 7 #31
guillaumeb Dec 7 #32
zipplewrath Dec 7 #27
guillaumeb Dec 7 #28
Irish_Dem Friday #52
zipplewrath Friday #59
Irish_Dem Friday #60
Locrian Sunday #126
saidsimplesimon Dec 7 #29
guillaumeb Dec 7 #30
WestMichRad Dec 7 #34
guillaumeb Dec 7 #39
Locrian Sunday #128
Voltaire2 Dec 7 #36
muriel_volestrangler Dec 7 #35
guillaumeb Dec 7 #40
muriel_volestrangler Dec 7 #41
guillaumeb Dec 7 #42
marylandblue Friday #47
Irish_Dem Friday #53
marylandblue Friday #55
Irish_Dem Friday #57
marylandblue Monday #135
Irish_Dem Monday #137
Act_of_Reparation Friday #48
Irish_Dem Sunday #104
Act_of_Reparation Monday #134
trotsky Friday #50
Mariana Dec 7 #44
Voltaire2 Dec 7 #37
True Dough Sunday #100
Voltaire2 Sunday #102
marylandblue Dec 7 #46
Irish_Dem Friday #54
marylandblue Friday #56
Irish_Dem Friday #58
Irish_Dem Friday #51
guillaumeb Friday #68
Irish_Dem Friday #72
Bretton Garcia Friday #64
edhopper Friday #71
guillaumeb Friday #79
edhopper Friday #82
Lordquinton Friday #75
guillaumeb Friday #80
Lordquinton Saturday #99
procon Friday #76
guillaumeb Friday #81
edhopper Friday #77
guillaumeb Saturday #89
edhopper Saturday #90
guillaumeb Saturday #91
edhopper Saturday #92
guillaumeb Saturday #93
edhopper Saturday #94
guillaumeb Saturday #95
edhopper Saturday #96
guillaumeb Saturday #97
edhopper Saturday #98
Irish_Dem Sunday #103
edhopper Sunday #130
Irish_Dem Monday #132
WhiteTara Sunday #101
Irish_Dem Sunday #105
WhiteTara Sunday #107
Irish_Dem Sunday #108
WhiteTara Sunday #109
Irish_Dem Sunday #110
WhiteTara Sunday #111
Irish_Dem Sunday #112
WhiteTara Sunday #113
Irish_Dem Sunday #115
WhiteTara Sunday #116
Irish_Dem Sunday #117
WhiteTara Sunday #118
Irish_Dem Sunday #120
WhiteTara Sunday #121
Irish_Dem Sunday #122
Mariana Sunday #123
Irish_Dem Sunday #124
Mariana Sunday #125
Irish_Dem Sunday #129
Voltaire2 Wednesday #148
Irish_Dem Wednesday #150
Voltaire2 Wednesday #152
Irish_Dem Wednesday #154
trotsky Wednesday #153
Irish_Dem Wednesday #155
trotsky Wednesday #158
marylandblue Wednesday #156
trotsky Wednesday #159
Act_of_Reparation Wednesday #161
Irish_Dem Sunday #106
guillaumeb Tuesday #140
Irish_Dem Tuesday #142
guillaumeb Tuesday #143
Irish_Dem Tuesday #144
Binkie The Clown Sunday #127
guillaumeb Tuesday #141
Permanut Sunday #131
marylandblue Monday #133
Permanut Monday #136
marylandblue Monday #138
Irish_Dem Tuesday #145
Permanut Wednesday #147
Irish_Dem Wednesday #149
Irish_Dem Tuesday #146
KPN Wednesday #151
guillaumeb Wednesday #157
KPN 7 hrs ago #164
guillaumeb 4 hrs ago #166

Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 11:44 AM

1. Look within

the mind, the answers are all logical and fact based. Pay attention to some ancient truths and history. imo

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Response to saidsimplesimon (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 11:47 AM

2. Congratulations on your 2,222nd post.

Yes, I agree that the search is an inner search for meaning. A search for divine DNA or other such evidence is limited by our own human conception of what is discoverable by humans.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #2)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 11:54 AM

3. thank you,

If there is anything "divine" about humans it is our much maligned power of mind over matter. imo

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:11 AM

61. But a human looking within,.will of course find human things

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 12:51 PM

4. Why don't you tell us what to look for?

You said my problem was that I had a bad teacher.

Be a good teacher. Tell me.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #4)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 01:28 PM

6. What can I tell you?

Can I teach you to have faith?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #6)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 02:12 PM

19. You said I had a bad teacher, and that's why I'm an atheist.

If I hear you correctly, that's the only possible way someone could hear the message of your religion and still reject it. They must have had a bad teacher - there's no other conceivable reason, right?

So teach me.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #19)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 02:23 PM

20. Did I say you had a bad teacher, or was it a possibility?

And no, you misheard. There are many paths to a good life.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #20)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 02:26 PM

21. I misheard nothing.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #21)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 02:28 PM

22. Yes, you actaully did.

Thank you for the link, because this was my initial reply:

Perhaps you had the wrong teacher.

Perhaps not. Stony ground is less hospitable to the mustard seed, agreed?


Perhaps indicates that it is not a declarative statement. Perhaps indicates other possibilities.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #22)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 02:40 PM

23. No, I actually did not. That was an earlier post.

You clarified later:

I blamed the teacher.


If you still meant "perhaps" you should have said "I said perhaps the teacher was to blame." But you didn't. You were specific.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #23)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 02:49 PM

24. No, you still misread.

As the first response clearly shows.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #24)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 02:52 PM

25. That is your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it.

I will let others judge for themselves.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #25)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 02:55 PM

26. I agree. Others will judge. eom

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #26)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 09:12 AM

49. Great! So now that's settled,

are you going to teach me to have faith? Tell me what I've done wrong, or how I'm defective, that I don't believe in your religion?

Let's begin.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #26)

Wed Dec 13, 2017, 01:22 PM

160. So, you gonna find where my faults are or not?

Why am I unable to accept the message of your religion?

Your OP implies people looked in the wrong place, or looked for the wrong thing.

Teach me what I'm supposed to look for.

Let's go.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #160)

Wed Dec 13, 2017, 02:04 PM

162. And WHY are we supposed to be looking for it?

What the hell is it hiding from?

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Response to trotsky (Reply #160)

Wed Dec 13, 2017, 05:21 PM

163. I said nothing of the kind.

I asked what exactly people were looking for, and asked where they looked.

Do you see atheism as a fault, or a lack?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #163)

Fri Dec 15, 2017, 10:58 AM

165. I see atheism as neither.

But you see it as both, apparently.

Why?

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Response to trotsky (Reply #165)

Fri Dec 15, 2017, 02:38 PM

167. No, I do not. That is your misperception. eom

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #167)

Fri Dec 15, 2017, 02:47 PM

168. My "misperception" of what you expressly stated in your OP?

Namely, that atheists must have been looking for the wrong thing, in the wrong place, in the wrong way? (Implying that they are at fault AND lacking something that needs to be looked for!)

You make this too damn easy, g. Way too easy.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #168)

Fri Dec 15, 2017, 02:48 PM

169. Again, you misperceive.

But if it serves your narrative, I understand.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #169)

Fri Dec 15, 2017, 02:55 PM

170. So instead of falling back to your sorry, lame-ass "your narrative" bullshit, why don't you clarify?

Why did you ask the questions in your OP?

Are atheists lacking god? Yes or no.

Are they not looking properly? Yes or no.

I realize you won't answer these questions, because you'd rather continue your snide remarks and insults than engage in real discussion which shows you to be wrong.

But how awesome it would be if you could finally, once and for all, put me in my place. Want to try?

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Response to trotsky (Reply #170)

Fri Dec 15, 2017, 03:00 PM

171. I asked the questions to illustrate my argument. An argument I have made many times here.

It is up to you to answer them if you wish. Or recognize the validity of the questions.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #171)

Fri Dec 15, 2017, 03:16 PM

172. Your questions all beg the most important question:

is there really a god to find - ANYWHERE?

You haven't demonstrated that yet. No one has. Numerous people have asked you to merely DEFINE your god, and you have refused every request. Your argument fails.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #172)

Fri Dec 15, 2017, 06:00 PM

173. Faith is what is required.

I cannot prove the existence of the Creator, and you cannot disprove the existence of a Creator.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #6)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:14 AM

62. Religious leaders in the Bible try to teach faith constantly

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Response to Bretton Garcia (Reply #62)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 02:41 PM

67. I am old, but not old enough to be in the Bible. eom

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 01:09 PM

5. No need to look for one. Others put their deities up for consideration

constantly. All you have to do is look to see if there's any evidence of the deities they are selling.

So far, no such evidence has been presented. From that I can draw only one conclusion.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #5)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 01:31 PM

7. I can draw many conclusions.

1) You are not looking in the correct place.

2) You are looking incorrectly.

3) You do not realize what it is that you are looking for.

4) You are looking for what cannot be found using science.

5) You found and did not realize.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #7)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 01:36 PM

8. You can draw anything you like, Guillaume.

However, you do not know me, nor anything much about me. So, draw away...

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #8)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 01:58 PM

10. Simply trying to help out.

Keep searching.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #10)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 02:02 PM

14. No, you're not, Guillaume.

You're baiting. I won't bite.

I once left this group for a very long time over similar baiting. I came back, only to find it again. Ugh!

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #14)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 02:05 PM

15. You know very little about me, other than my first name.

As to baiting, and such tactics, I see them practiced constantly here, mainly by described atheists. But I do not assume that such tactics are common to atheists in general.

And I was sincere in suggesting that you keep searching. I feel that people find what they truly seek.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #15)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 02:07 PM

16. No, you were not being sincere. You were trying to game me.

I don't play. I don't bait. I discuss. If you want to discuss something with me, you'll have to lay off the crap. I don't care.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #16)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 02:08 PM

17. I read your other post. And I understand the anger.

I recommend a walk. It generally works for me.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #17)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 02:09 PM

18. Fuck that, OK?

I'm not going to take a walk. I'm pissed off, and plan to stay that way for a while. I won't play with you any longer. That's done.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #18)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:36 PM

45. Actually, I think he is baiting me

Because the OP is identical to post he made responding to me in another thread. But I don't care if he baits me or not. I'll just respond the way I want, or not at all.

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #45)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 05:37 PM

78. You are incorrect.

Whatever works for you obviously works, for you.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #78)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 05:52 PM

83. ok, thanks.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #17)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 03:29 PM

74. Ah, the angry atheist meme

Haven't seen that for a while.

How absolutely vile of you to use it.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #10)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 12:19 PM

119. Nothing to find

and no need to search.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #7)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 01:43 PM

9. #4


4) You are looking for what cannot be found using science.

If God exists, he can be found using science. In fact, all he has to do is reveal himself and we can use our eyes. If he can not reveal himself, then his omnipotence is overrated

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Response to Cartoonist (Reply #9)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 02:00 PM

12. Assume for the argument that God exists.

What does God look like? A corollary is what makes anyone assume that God can be seen?

How does God communicate?

Where is God at?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #12)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 03:16 PM

33. If God is omnipotent

Then he can choose whatever guise he wants. And we'll know it. Unless God is a total idiot and appears as George Burns, or someone who looks just like him.

Actually your questions make me wonder who you think God is. He can't communicate? Really?

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Response to Cartoonist (Reply #33)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 05:53 PM

38. You claimed that I said God cannot communicate, when I actually said:

What does God look like? A corollary is what makes anyone assume that God can be seen?

How does God communicate?

Where is God at?


How does the question "How does God communicate?" become, in your misframing: "He can't communicate?"

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #38)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 09:58 PM

43. Why ask the question then?

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Response to Cartoonist (Reply #43)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 02:34 PM

66. Why did you misframe it?

Did you read it incorrectly, or is there another reason?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #66)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 02:45 PM

69. There is another reason

How does God communicate?

When you get down to it, that's rather a stupid question. Here's another one: "Where does an 800-pound gorilla sit?" you can look up the answer online.

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Response to Cartoonist (Reply #69)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 02:53 PM

70. Perhaps you should have asked why I wrote what I did, rather than misframe what

I wrote.

But my question is not as obvious or stupid as you stated. Think about it.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #70)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 08:50 PM

84. Think about omnipotence

You think God can't figure out a way to communicate? Then why ask how? Please explain the question because it makes no sense.

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Response to Cartoonist (Reply #84)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 08:55 PM

85. There are many ways to communicate.

Not all are verbal. Not all are obvious.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #85)

Sat Dec 9, 2017, 02:33 AM

86. And which one can't God do?

Keep digging

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Response to Cartoonist (Reply #86)

Sat Dec 9, 2017, 04:25 PM

88. Do you still misunderstand what I actually said?

Respond to what I said, not what you claim that I said. Reread what I actually said if necessary. You are the only one insisting that I said God cannot communicate.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #88)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:40 AM

114. You implied it by asking the question

First, define god.
Second, ask how god communicates.

Surely, your god must be a powerful being. How can you even ask how he could communicate? What, he can't come up with something? Please interpret your own question. This should be good. I can hardly wait for you to throw your god under the bus because he can't, won't, or just lacks the intelligence or ability to speak. What other possible answers to your question is there?

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Response to Cartoonist (Reply #114)

Tue Dec 12, 2017, 05:27 PM

139. I did not imply any such thing.

Again, you are responding to what you wish my answer to be. So you are debating yourself. Good luck and I trust that you will win.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #7)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:21 AM

63. If there are so many easy ways to miss God?

Then maybe he's not there. Since there is so little evidence.

In most of the Bible, by the way, God is visible, and walks around talking. So if that's not there today, but you still believe, then already you've abandoned most or the bible's God.

And who knows what you are folloeing after that. Probably a "false spirit."

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Response to Bretton Garcia (Reply #63)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:50 AM

65. He really wasn't visible in most of the book.

Remember how God told Moses it would kill him (Moses, not God) if Moses were to look upon his face? But Moses really really really wanted to see God in the flesh, so to speak, so God showed Moses his backside, and Moses was satisfied with that.

I believe that's the last time in the Bible that anyone actually saw God with their eyes.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #65)

Sat Dec 9, 2017, 04:01 AM

87. That's mostly right.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #7)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 03:28 PM

73. There's an option you aren't including

6) you found a false positive and stopped.

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 02:00 PM

11. I looked in the cookie jar but only found crumbs

I think she stole my cookies!

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Response to WestMichRad (Reply #11)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 02:01 PM

13. Are there other jars in the kitchen?

What type of cookies?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #13)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 03:12 PM

31. Chocolate chip oatmeal!

My favorite! Have to conclude she is truly evil.

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Response to WestMichRad (Reply #31)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 03:13 PM

32. Laughter on this end. eom

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 03:00 PM

27. Science reveals God

I heard some scientist suggest this once. That the study of science was the study OF God, in the sense that God is everything and to understand God, you have to understand "everything" in some sense. Really, I'm paraphrasing poorly in that he suggested that in the study of science, one began to understand the enormity of God.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #27)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 03:04 PM

28. I Googled the term, and this was the first citation:

http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/galleries/6-ways-science-reveals-gods-truth.aspx

An interesting article, and one I might use as the basis for an article here.

Thank you for the quote.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #27)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 09:20 AM

52. I agree with this statement.

Science and spirituality are not two separate entities.
They are one and the same.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #52)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 10:28 AM

59. Potentially

It has been suggested that they are opposite sides of the same coin.
If nothing else it is a form of "intellectual cross training". You can study almost anything deeply, and it will give you a deeper appreciation for many things.
Goodness knows the Jesuits thought that the study of nature WAS the study of God.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #59)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 10:36 AM

60. I guess I am more in line with the Jesuits then.

Science and God are one and the same.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 08:13 PM

126. Fritjof Capra

http://www.fritjofcapra.net/

Tao of Physics
Systems View of Life

Very interesting synthesis of science and the infinite

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 03:05 PM

29. Here comes the broken record.

Read Voltaire, all your questions rely on facts and evidence, for some, "faith" requires a leap into the abyss.

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Response to saidsimplesimon (Reply #29)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 03:09 PM

30. Faith requires belief in the unprovable.

And Voltaire saw faith and religion as a social glue.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #30)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 03:19 PM

34. "...requires belief in the unprovable."

Sounds to me very much like a cousin of believing in your own set of facts.

No thanks, I'll continue to use science and love as my guides for life.

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Response to WestMichRad (Reply #34)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 05:54 PM

39. If that suffices for you, fine. oem

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #39)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 08:18 PM

128. faith - Manly Palmer Hall

The term faith has been badly misunderstood. It is not he unquestioning acceptance of that which is not demonstrable nor is a blight upon natural curiosity. We are not less anxious to learn: in fact thoughtfulness finds a fuller justification. Faith is the conscious and voluntary acceptance of the wisdom, love, and security behind and within the process of creation.

It is the recognition of a universal integrity so complete an so inevitable that human doubts are intuitively dissolved. Truth is good, law is love, and life is god. Once the human conspicuousness has accepted these facts a sufficient faith is not only possible but also imminently available.


Used to read a lot of his stuff....

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Response to saidsimplesimon (Reply #29)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 05:08 PM

36. Thanks!

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 03:48 PM

35. By "God", do you mean a monotheistic deity that has some reason for the capital letter

and no indefinite article?

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #35)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 06:00 PM

40. I mean whatever one conceives of as a deity.

By whatever name, whatever gender, no gender, an anthropomorphic form or no form.

I personally mean the one who created, the Creator.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #40)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 06:27 PM

41. This seems to beg the question, then

You're saying we need to conceive of a deity, and then look for that conception. That looks like one would leave oneself wide open to confirmation bias.

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #41)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 07:20 PM

42. Confirmation bias is everywhere.

How can anyone be certain that it is not present in nearly anything or everything that we hold to be true?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #42)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 12:00 AM

47. That's why science is such a good process to finding truth

Better than anything else humans have come up with, because, among other things, it accounts for confirmation bias. Not perfect, but we've learned more in the 400 years of using the scientific method, than in all the previous human history.put together.

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #47)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 09:28 AM

53. The scientific method is indeed the gold standard, but it is subject

to confirmation bias and other investigative errors. As humans we can unconsciously project our own beliefs in any research project.

I was trained as a scientist in a large research university and saw for
myself the bias inherent in research, especially in the social sciences.
For example, certain topics cannot be tackled because they are not in
line with the zeitgeist.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #53)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 09:50 AM

55. Yes that's true, it's not perfect

But over time, the errors tend to correct themselves. I did university research in engineering. Engineering keeps you honest because your errors tend to cost millions of dollars or hurt people.

Using faith to guide beliefs is likely lead to errors because it practically glorifies confirmation bias when it says things like "when you have faith, you see God everywhere." Of course you do.

Also, the human brain is an excellent pattern recognition device, but it makes many false positives, it imagines patterns in random events. That's why we see constellations in random distributions of stars. Science counteracts this tendency too, but again faith glorifies it.

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #55)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 09:56 AM

57. Research with human subjects is a different ballgame than the hard sciences.

Much more prone to errors I believe.

I read an article recently stating that humans are hard wired to believe in God.
If so, yes we are going to view our reality from that lens.

Faith and spirituality are such an individual things.
I was raised as a Catholic, rejected it as a young adult.
Mid life spent years investigating spiritual issues and came to my own
belief system. I did this because some things happened that had no rational basis
whatsoever, and I wanted to find out why. I felt there was so much more than
we know or understand about life.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #57)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 10:18 AM

135. I believe in spirituality, but I wouldn't call it a belief system

More like a set of feelings, practices and attitudes. I think when people turn spirituality into a belief system, they start losing their way, because then they fight over the ideas rather than just having the experience. Sort of like arguing which roller coaster is the best in the world, rather than just riding roller coasters.

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #135)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 11:34 AM

137. Good point, when we turn spirituality into an organized thing, it gets used as a weapon.

And I do think it is a very individual experience.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #42)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 07:55 AM

48. IF ONLY THERE WAS SOME WAY TO CONTROL FOR IT.

Oh, right.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #48)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 10:54 AM

104. It is not possible to eradicate bias in research, but yes the scientific method

is a strong attempt to do so.

The bias often starts right out of the gate, when university professors tell their
doctoral candidates which topics are acceptable and not acceptable. Young researchers learn
that they will not get funded to work on "unacceptable topics." Nor will they get their PhD.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #104)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 10:04 AM

134. I didn't say anything about eradicating bias.

I said controlling for it.


The bias often starts right out of the gate, when university professors tell their
doctoral candidates which topics are acceptable and not acceptable. Young researchers learn
that they will not get funded to work on "unacceptable topics." Nor will they get their PhD.


You obviously know a lot about academia.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #42)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 09:15 AM

50. If only we had a method for acquiring knowledge...

that was constructed precisely to overcome confirmation bias. Hmm, what would such a method look like?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

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Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #41)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:36 PM

44. "Conceive of a deity"

In other words, "imagine a deity" or "make up a deity".

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 05:13 PM

37. I found it hiding in the garage.

It was right next to a rusty socket wrench I hadn’t seen in years. It was scared, miserable, filthy, cold and hungry. I fed little god some miso soup, washed it in the sink, cleaned it’s clothes, and packed god a pb&j for the road.

“Good luck god” I said as the cute little critter set out on the road.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #37)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 03:45 AM

100. Did it come back to you?

You know what they say, "If it's truly love, it will come back to you."

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Response to True Dough (Reply #100)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 09:59 AM

102. Road kill.

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Thu Dec 7, 2017, 10:56 PM

46. I would look for a being that has a measureable effect on the universe

Doesn't have to be physical. But it has to actually DO something. A verified miracle that can't be explaineded another way. Clear evidence of design, not, "well it kind of looks designed if you think about it a certain way, so you must be looking the wrong way." Proof that prayer heals the sick (other than the placebo effect) or can make my horse win the Triple Crown. Not a First Cause that relies on our lack of scientific knowledge about how the universe started or on our intuition that everything has a cause... therefore, God. Because modern physics shows that our intuitions about physics are actually wrong. Someone cold, dead and decomposing returning to tell us what he saw.

And certainly, not anything about faith needing no proof. That last one is the worst. Basically all it says is that you believe because you believe because you believe because... Which is to say it says nothing at all.

I believe in spirituality. Personal experience of mystical states, like Buddhist enlightenment, or simply awe at the majesty of the universe. That's the closest I get to God. But that is not a Creator in any sense. It's just a function of our brains able to experience certain states we don't normally experience. There is no faith involved because it is simply another mental state. But it also says nothing about the world outside our own minds.

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #46)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 09:43 AM

54. Perhaps there is a divine being doing something every day.

Humans have not blown up the world. We still exist.

I look for God in remarkable events, situations and people.
You will know these things when you see or experience them.
They are totally out of the norm and generate a deep inner resonation.
It is subtle, not necessarily in your face kind of thing.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #54)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 09:53 AM

56. I agree with that, sort of

I think we have a spiritual capacity in our brains. There is a book called "The God Part of our Brain," which explores this. If I were more religious, I would say that this part of our brain actually can meet God. But I am not so religious, so I say it just feels that way, and that's good enough.

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #56)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 10:01 AM

58. We could argue that the God part of the brain is an evolutionary force at work.

Humans with a belief in God formed tribal groups with norms and mores which
may have loaded on survival. ???

I would also say that it doesn't really matter if there is a God or not.

Humans are a mixture of good and evil. We see that play out every day.
And the point for me is to try to be on the side of good. It is an internal focus,
doesn't matter if there is a God or not.

So I am not locked into the notion that God exists.

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 09:19 AM

51. Mine started as an intellectual exercise.

And I developed my own spirituality and belief systems.

I believe God exists in all of us, so I look for God in the day to day
situations and events.

For example, you can see every day posts on this forum which remind
me of God. Pure joy, happiness, or astute wisdom and leadership.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #51)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 02:44 PM

68. An interesting response.

I find the Creator in creation. The evidence is, in my view, all around us.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #68)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 03:12 PM

72. Yes, a lot of people see God in nature. I see God in people and their creations.

Which is all around us.

Genius, art, music, leadership, literature.
Yes all around us.

For example, I see the Declaration of Independence as a sacred document.

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 11:41 AM

64. So I looked deep inside. And the voice said ...

"The secret to Guil," the voice said, is that Guil wants to constantly advocate all the main cliches of modern churches, like the Unitarians. And wants everyone to believe they are the real God.

The idea that you can find God if you "look within youself" especially, is one of the most common cliches that I heard in modern - c. 1950-1980 - quasi intellectual churches.

But is this modern cliche really invulnerable to criticism? Is it really the hot new idea?

The one good thing about this cliche though, might be that it is fairly compatible with humanism. Since if you look deep within yourself, you should find a deeper humanity.

"Know yourself."

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 03:08 PM

71. Any evidence that a deity

Last edited Fri Dec 8, 2017, 04:35 PM - Edit history (1)

has any effect on the Universe.
Any sign that the Universe would not look exactly the same without a deity.

I certainly don't see it in any post of believers

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Response to edhopper (Reply #71)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 05:44 PM

79. How would you know?

If the Creator exists, all of what you perceive would be what reflects, in part, the Creator's work. And it would be the norm to you.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #79)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 05:50 PM

82. a Creator

is an unnecessary layer to the functioning Universe.

You come at this with the premise a Creator exists and try to explain why there is no evidence.

I see no evidence and conclude there is no Creator.

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 03:40 PM

75. So what you're saying

Is to redefine good until it fits the individual, but can be accepted by theists so that they don't have to ever hear a dissenting view again?

Nah. Define your god, show me how you found it, and then I'll use your methods.

So step one definition... Waitaminute....

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #75)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 05:46 PM

80. No, what you are framing is what you claim to be my views.

And you can reframe endlessly, and argue against that reframing as if you are arguing with me, if you like.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #80)

Sat Dec 9, 2017, 09:19 PM

99. And you avoid the topic completely

How predictible.

I'll put down theists dishonesty as a top reason I reject any idea there is a creator type being.

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 04:03 PM

76. Never felt the need to look for any mythical entities.

I'm now in my 70s and after a lifetime of watching people invent religious mores to fit their own fears, foibles and fantasies, the issue is moot and completely irrelevant to me.

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Response to procon (Reply #76)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 05:47 PM

81. You have found your path.

Welcome to it.

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Fri Dec 8, 2017, 04:46 PM

77. This thread

seems to presuppose there is a God to look for.

It's like the Ghost Hunters on TV. No skepticism if what they are doing is just chasing their own tail.

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Response to edhopper (Reply #77)

Sat Dec 9, 2017, 04:29 PM

89. If you do not believe in a deity, there is no need to look.

Thus saving time for other things.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #89)

Sat Dec 9, 2017, 04:48 PM

90. In fact

not being religious leaves a lot of time for better things.

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Response to edhopper (Reply #90)

Sat Dec 9, 2017, 04:52 PM

91. I have a lot of time for things also.

And still time for belief.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #91)

Sat Dec 9, 2017, 04:54 PM

92. I just think of all thos Saturdays wasted

in Temple.
But compared to the time the Orthodox waste in religious practice, that was nothing.

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Response to edhopper (Reply #92)

Sat Dec 9, 2017, 05:00 PM

93. Was it truly wasted?

Did you learn anything that helped you in life?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #93)

Sat Dec 9, 2017, 05:08 PM

94. A lot of fairy tales

and reasons the Jews were so so special.
Aso some damaging things about the Holocaust when I was too young for it.
But time against what I learned, largely a waste.

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Response to edhopper (Reply #94)

Sat Dec 9, 2017, 05:10 PM

95. Too bad that more do not learn about the Holocaust.

Especially the morons who march in Nazi uniforms.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #95)

Sat Dec 9, 2017, 05:25 PM

96. Do you think a nine year old

should see film of people who starved in concentration camps and bodies being dumped from gas chambers?

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Response to edhopper (Reply #96)

Sat Dec 9, 2017, 05:27 PM

97. No, I do not. Material should be age appropriate.

That type of thing should be shown at the secondary level.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #97)

Sat Dec 9, 2017, 05:53 PM

98. Well

now you know what I learned. Time would have been better spent watching Sat morning cartoons.

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Response to edhopper (Reply #94)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 10:49 AM

103. I have attended services in a synagogue, and I found them quite nice.

The music is astounding and magical, some of the prayers are superb.

But like you I am not much one for organized religion (raised Catholic).

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #103)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 09:46 PM

130. I suppose once or twice can be interesting

but the same thing every Saturday gets tedious.

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Response to edhopper (Reply #130)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 08:50 AM

132. I went every Friday night for a couple of years.

Family member is Jewish. I agree, anything you have to do, gets tedious
and not fun. This synagogue had a female Rabbi and her sermons were excellent.
I enjoyed that, and the music. But yes, gradually stopped going, as organized religion begins to wear on me.

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 08:22 AM

101. Looking for God assumes that

you must look outside yourself which is duality. If all in the universe are One, there can be no searching and no finding. All simply is.

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Response to WhiteTara (Reply #101)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 10:56 AM

105. Yes this is what I was trying to say in my posts, but you said it better White Tara.

Love your name

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #105)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:05 AM

107. Thanks. As I understand it

God can't be outside meddling about when God is everything, so all must be God.

I also think God is a misnomer as all is Mind. Outside Mind, there is no Buddha. Outside Buddha, there is no Mind.

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Response to WhiteTara (Reply #107)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:08 AM

108. Can you say more about Mind?

I usually think of God as coming from our Soul.
The Heart Chakra??

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #108)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:12 AM

109. The heart chakra is the seat of compassion

and I think what you call Soul is a close interpration of Mind. However, Mind comprises All and Soul seems to be a personal story line. My friend calls Mind, Essence that pervades All.

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Response to WhiteTara (Reply #109)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:15 AM

110. I think we mean the same thing, but use different terms. nt

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #110)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:30 AM

111. Very close

but I don't believe in a personal God or one that looks after this planet. (Although, if I did, She is a woman and black and angry.) I believe it is much more immense than that and it is ever expanding.

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Response to WhiteTara (Reply #111)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:33 AM

112. I don't believe God has gender or race.

I agree about the immensity and ever expanding part.
But I do believe God takes an interest in all souls.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #112)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:38 AM

113. I believe in the laws of Karma

and that is what drives all lives of all sentient beings. Cause and effect...isn't that simple Newtonian physics?

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Response to WhiteTara (Reply #113)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:42 AM

115. Yes exactly. I believe this too. We are seeing a lot of karma taking place

lately.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #115)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:44 AM

116. So are you saying that Universal Laws

equal God?

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Response to WhiteTara (Reply #116)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:45 AM

117. I would say Universal Laws are God's laws, and part of God. nt

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #117)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 12:16 PM

118. If God is everything

nothing can be "part of" God. It is or it isn't and since it all is, all are the whole...just as if you cut away a piece of the hologram, both pieces show the whole.

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Response to WhiteTara (Reply #118)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 12:30 PM

120. Again, semantics in the way.. God is his laws, and his laws are him. But he is more than his laws.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #120)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 12:52 PM

121. Once again we have returned to the personal god..."him"

Okay, my dear. I'm out in my garden on this beautiful day.

Here's a Koan for you to ponder.

Outside Mind, there is no Buddha
Outside Buddha, there is no mind.

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Response to WhiteTara (Reply #121)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 03:02 PM

122. I know, God should be an it.

Will ponder the Koan....
Enjoy your day!

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #115)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 06:28 PM

123. Would you give some examples of karma taking place?

I want to be sure I understand what you mean.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #123)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 06:57 PM

124. There are many kinds of karma.

It is a complicated topic, but the kind I am noticing right now is the notion of spiritual accountability, or consequences for previous bad behavior that people got away with.

The Trumps seem to be facing some karma every day.They have been operating with impunity, a crime family, and now a light is shining on their lies, manipulations, greed, etc. And the same with their friends and colleagues who pretty much did whatever they wanted for personal gain. Trump is a con artist, a bluffer and liar, and now he is called out on everything he says. He had tremendous pride and desireto look wealthy and important. Now he is exposed as a fool.

Also the national media attention to the sexual harassment issue is calling out bad behavior that previously was buried. All at once, it is out in the open, with consequences to those who have done wrong.

The FBI is getting a piece of karma. Comey tried to sway the election, doesn't feel much guilt about it and now his name and the FBI are being maligned by the man he helped win the election.

There are more examples, these are just a few.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #124)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 07:39 PM

125. Thank you. nt.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #125)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 08:23 PM

129. YW nt

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #124)

Wed Dec 13, 2017, 09:30 AM

148. I think that is just confirmation bias.

There is no evidence for karma or for a "moral arc of the universe".

Trump for example - you seem to think he is being punished for his misdeeds. Actually he is sitting in the white house - a bucket list adventure he set out on about ten years ago, after a long life of being an absolute asshole and getting rewarded for it with wealth fame and power over and over again. If anything Trump's life is evidence that, quite obviously, the universe doesn't give a shit.

If there are consequences for bad behavior those consequences occur because of what we do in response to that behavior, nothing else matters.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #148)

Wed Dec 13, 2017, 10:06 AM

150. Trump's karmic journey is far from over. It has just begun.

Every day you will see it take a more definite shape.

But his journey is more about the karma of the United States than him personally.
Our dark underbelly exposed for us to view in horror. So the American people are on a journey as well, time will tell if we can do the right thing.

And faith does not require evidence. It is quite personal, a person's relationship with his/her maker.

But if you look around you, you will see evidence of people acting in ways that reflect God.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #150)

Wed Dec 13, 2017, 11:37 AM

152. Of course you will see what you wish to see, that is what confirmation bias is.

But people get away with horrible shit all the time. There is no magical force evening things out. It is just us, what we do, that matters.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #152)

Wed Dec 13, 2017, 11:53 AM

154. Faith is not confirmation bias to me.

I was trained as a scientist and eschewed anything spiritual as an adult.
Then some things happened that I could not explain rationally and I spent
some years investigating, learning and exploring spiritual issues.
Then matters became quite clear to me.

I think we are all on different journeys, and I respect every one's journey.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #150)

Wed Dec 13, 2017, 11:43 AM

153. "Trump's karmic journey is far from over. It has just begun."

You have absolutely no idea this is true. None whatsoever.

And this:
So the American people are on a journey as well, time will tell if we can do the right thing.

Is just a putrid thing to think. Millions are losing healthcare coverage on this "journey." Many thousands will DIE. To have the attitude of "well, we're on a journey" to fucking prove WHAT exactly? That real human beings with lives and families and goals and dreams only have the purpose of fulfilling karma for someone else by dying unnecessarily? What the hell did they do to deserve to be treated like this?

Oh and when will Dick Cheney's karma arrive? Kthx.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #153)

Wed Dec 13, 2017, 11:56 AM

155. Do the American people play any part in selecting their leadership?

Do they have any responsibility for where things are right now?
Or are they victims of a rigged system.

I do not know the answer.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #155)

Wed Dec 13, 2017, 12:14 PM

158. That's a cop-out non-answer.

And it illustrates perfectly the problem with your belief in "karma."

"victims of a rigged system" - yes indeed they are. So why are THEY being punished, while the people who rigged it are enjoying the good life?

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Response to trotsky (Reply #153)

Wed Dec 13, 2017, 12:01 PM

156. A better example is some of the horrible brutes of the past

Andrew Jackson, for example. He comitted genocide against the Indians, damaged the American economy by ending the Bank of the United States, and helped perpetuate slavery. For this he was reelected, died an honorable death and put on the $20 bill.

Or Ghenghis Khan who completely destroyed entire cities that would not submit to him. No Karma for his crimes. He built the world's largest empire.

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #156)

Wed Dec 13, 2017, 12:15 PM

159. Agreed, those are great examples.

Entire lives we have recorded evidence for, with absolutely zero evidence of any karma being paid back to them at any time.

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #156)

Wed Dec 13, 2017, 01:53 PM

161. "I owe the public nothing."

so said JP Morgan. Died in his sleep. At age 75. In Rome.

No Karma there, either.

Then there's General Erich von Ludendorff. He got millions killed in World War I and when Germany he lost he blamed it on the Marxists, the Bolsheviks, and the Jews. Died at 72 of liver cancer. My grandfather died of liver cancer, and he was a saint.

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 10:58 AM

106. An example of what I have been trying to say about finding God in people and in their creations.

A recent editorial by Dan Rather is clearly from his "Higher Angels"....
and I would assume something from angels is from God??

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #106)

Tue Dec 12, 2017, 05:30 PM

140. He may have intended that meaning.

I cannot speak fro him.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #140)

Tue Dec 12, 2017, 05:39 PM

142. I don't think it is a conscious process for most.

They are just writing something heartfelt.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #142)

Tue Dec 12, 2017, 05:40 PM

143. True, and language/religion/culture are all blended together.

So non-theists will use language with religious connotations without necessarily intending any religious sentiment.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #143)

Tue Dec 12, 2017, 10:41 PM

144. Certainly atheists and non theists are capable of producing angelic or god like material.

They may call it by other names, inspiration from a muse.
Or they may see things in a dream state, certain geniuses have reported material coming to them in dreams.

Or as you say, categorize their creation in religious ways without religious sentiment.

I see people post things on this forum that remind me of God and the Angels.
Material that hits you in your heart chakra.
Or is so wise, it takes you aback, or hits you right between the eyes (third eye chakra).

When I see such posts, I am tempted to send them to you as more examples and proof of God,
but I am restraining myself lest you be inundated with angelic material.

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 08:13 PM

127. I gave up religion long before I gave up god.

My Catholic upbringing convinced me by age 7 that religion was B.S. (they kept telling me I was born evil and had to redeem myself, and I knew damn well there wasn't an evil bone in my body.), so I went looking in other directions. Over the years I tried out numerous Christian denominations, including LDS and Unity. Moved on to Unitarianism, and Theosophy without luck. Finding more of the same nonsense I looked East. Hindu, Buddhist, Sufi, Transcendental Meditation, etc. etc.

The only thing of value I ever found was the positive effects of mindfulness meditation on my mental and physiological state, and there was no need of any "god" hypothesis to benefit from deep meditation. Finally, I decided that not one single concept of god as taught in any human religion made any sense whatsoever. So I finally gave up both religion and god.

But I kept meditation because it actually works.

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Response to Binkie The Clown (Reply #127)

Tue Dec 12, 2017, 05:30 PM

141. And if it works I would say you found your path. eom

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Sun Dec 10, 2017, 10:26 PM

131. Chocolate is absolute proof of a deity..

How the hell could chocolate "just happen"?

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Response to Permanut (Reply #131)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 09:59 AM

133. If there were a God, chocolate would not be fattening

And the four food groups would be sugar, salt, beer and pizza.

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #133)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 11:24 AM

136. Point taken..

So chocolate could be a trap, a tempation from that "other place".

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Response to Permanut (Reply #136)

Mon Dec 11, 2017, 11:40 AM

138. Yes, clearly the forbidden fruit was a cacao bean

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Response to marylandblue (Reply #138)

Tue Dec 12, 2017, 10:43 PM

145. Now they are saying dark chocolate is nutrient dense. So it is really like medicine, right? nt

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #145)

Wed Dec 13, 2017, 09:09 AM

147. I like where you're going with this..

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Response to Permanut (Reply #147)

Wed Dec 13, 2017, 09:59 AM

149. A friend of mine drinks a glass of red wine, and eats a square of dark chocolate

every evening. She says it is for medicinal purposes only.

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Response to Permanut (Reply #131)

Tue Dec 12, 2017, 10:46 PM

146. If angels ate and drank, they would eat chocolate and sip champaign?

In between heralding, singing and performing good works of course.

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Wed Dec 13, 2017, 10:32 AM

151. Everywhere.

I am Catholic by upbringing, but I do not participate and have not for years in any organized religion. I don't believe in God as described in the Bible. However, I do believe in something much more powerful and much more divine than humans. I am just not sure what that higher spirit/being/essence/power is.

Where do I find evidence of a higher spirit and nurture spiritualism within me? Primarily nature, but sometimes in individual human beings that I cross paths with -- whether just once, intermittently, or whenever I am around them (very few, hardly any by the way). I often find spiritualism in the morning sky.

As for evidence of A God in the form of or with an affinity for or special inclination favoring humans -- I don't really see any.

What was I looking for? What do I hope to find when I have looked for God? Nothing more than peace -- internal peace, peace of mind, and a general sense of good. Definitely not salvation, redemption from my sins/wrong-doings/personal weaknesses, etc. I am at peace with my own and man's ephemeral nature. I am at peace with my own imperfections, but not so much with our society's nor my own contributions to goodness overall. I sometimes think I need to do better in that last regard.

That's about it. Oh, I don't believe in the concept of "faith" given the evidence I do see -- which is basically human evidence.

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Response to KPN (Reply #151)

Wed Dec 13, 2017, 12:04 PM

157. Do you see evidence of a Creator in creation?

If so, I understand your point. But if there is a Creator, our knowing of that Creator, what we call our knowing, would be a human knowing based on our limited human sentience.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #157)

Fri Dec 15, 2017, 10:48 AM

164. Interesting question and point. That is if I understand your point.

Is realizing that this all had to come from somewhere, somehow evidence of a Creator? If yes, then I suppose I would have to say yes. At the same time, I'm not sure I would ascribe a specific notion to evidence of a Creator being limited to our human-ness, human sentience beyond what I have already said in my previous post. There are infinite possibilities which in itself makes faith in one possibility hard to accept for me personally. While faith may provide peace, relief, hope and even the possibility of salvation, it requires one choice among infinite possibilities. I get those things (peace, relief, hope and a sense of my own personal permanence) through my own interaction with the world and people around me, through my own personal spiritualism, without having made that choice.

I am at peace with and unafraid of my ephemeral nature as a human, a living organism. What does that say? What does that mean about my belief in a Creator?

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Response to KPN (Reply #164)

Fri Dec 15, 2017, 02:37 PM

166. I was speaking about the ability of a human to actually understand

what the Creator is. My point is that when asking, we are asking with a limited human intelligence and limited capacity for understanding.

Imagine if you must a Creator that literally created all we accept as existence. What commonality, other then sentience, would a human have with that Creator?

I have previously used the analogy of an ant and a skyscraper. It is possible fro the ant to perceive the skyscraper, but the ant cannot describe what or who created the skyscraper. The difference in ability is far too great.

If you are at peace with your life, I would say you have chosen your own good path. And if you respect your neighbor as yourself, I would say you are living a good life.

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