HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Topics » Religion & Spirituality » Religion (Group) » Can One Believe in a god ...

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:35 PM

Can One Believe in a god and Reject That god??

43 replies, 4228 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 43 replies Author Time Post
Reply Can One Believe in a god and Reject That god?? (Original post)
Angry Dragon Sep 2017 OP
guillaumeb Sep 2017 #1
Orrex Sep 2017 #3
guillaumeb Sep 2017 #5
Orrex Sep 2017 #11
guillaumeb Sep 2017 #13
Angry Dragon Sep 2017 #18
guillaumeb Sep 2017 #19
Angry Dragon Sep 2017 #20
AtheistCrusader Sep 2017 #41
Angry Dragon Sep 2017 #6
guillaumeb Sep 2017 #14
Angry Dragon Sep 2017 #17
MineralMan Sep 2017 #25
guillaumeb Sep 2017 #34
MineralMan Sep 2017 #35
AtheistCrusader Sep 2017 #42
Orrex Sep 2017 #2
Angry Dragon Sep 2017 #8
AtheistCrusader Sep 2017 #38
Orrex Sep 2017 #39
Sanity Claws Sep 2017 #4
Croney Sep 2017 #7
Thomas Hurt Sep 2017 #9
Voltaire2 Sep 2017 #22
Thomas Hurt Sep 2017 #23
Act_of_Reparation Sep 2017 #26
democratisphere Sep 2017 #10
Sneederbunk Sep 2017 #12
deucemagnet Sep 2017 #15
vlyons Sep 2017 #16
Angry Dragon Sep 2017 #21
trotsky Sep 2017 #24
MineralMan Sep 2017 #27
Act_of_Reparation Sep 2017 #28
TreasonousBastard Sep 2017 #29
NotASurfer Sep 2017 #30
doc03 Sep 2017 #31
malchickiwick Sep 2017 #32
guillaumeb Sep 2017 #36
NeoGreen Sep 2017 #33
guillaumeb Sep 2017 #37
LanternWaste Sep 2017 #40
Angry Dragon Sep 2017 #43

Response to Angry Dragon (Original post)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:40 PM

1. Can one elaborate, with proof and examples?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to guillaumeb (Reply #1)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:44 PM

3. What proof and examples would satisfy you?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Reply #3)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:45 PM

5. The proof and examples that prompted the original poster to post.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to guillaumeb (Reply #5)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:51 PM

11. The OP posed a question

Why assume that "proof and examples" prompted it, rather than sincere curiosity?

For that matter, why would you expect that "proof and examples that prompted the original poster to post" would satisfy you?

Since you asked the question of the OP, I am interested to hear precisely what you would find acceptable, if only to remove the possibility that you'll play the back-and-forth game for a few dozen posts only to say "nope--doesn't convince me."

Specify your criteria and let people respond.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Reply #11)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:53 PM

13. In this post,

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=254236

the original poster asked the same question of me. So it is a bit of an inside joke.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to guillaumeb (Reply #13)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 09:01 PM

18. inside joke only to you

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Angry Dragon (Reply #18)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 09:02 PM

19. Still waiting.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to guillaumeb (Reply #19)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 09:03 PM

20. For??

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to guillaumeb (Reply #19)

Thu Sep 7, 2017, 03:30 PM

41. In your example post you made a claim. In the OP here, a philosophical question was asked.

No one is fooled by what you are doing here.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to guillaumeb (Reply #1)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:46 PM

6. Sure

You believe a certain god exists and you reject that god for whatever reason............

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Angry Dragon (Reply #6)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:54 PM

14. Reject the existence of that god?

That sounds a bit strange.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to guillaumeb (Reply #14)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:59 PM

17. where did I say rejection of existence?? ........... I said reject

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to guillaumeb (Reply #1)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 09:36 AM

25. What proof and examples are required when one posts a question?

A question calls for answers, not demands for proof. Have you an answer to this question?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MineralMan (Reply #25)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 02:32 PM

34. No I do not,

but the same question has been asked of me in past posts.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to guillaumeb (Reply #34)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 02:35 PM

35. I see, so that makes it OK?

When someone asks you a question, you can either answer it or you cannot. There aren't really any other options. Questions, by their nature, do not demand proof, since they assert nothing.

As you may have noticed, some people in the thread actually did undertake to answer the question. Only you asked a question in return, demanded some sort of proof, but of what I have no idea.

A good rule is to stick to the topic of the thread, rather than make blind references to some other situation in some other thread. That way, you don't confuse people, who may not be aware of your point of reference.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to guillaumeb (Reply #34)

Thu Sep 7, 2017, 03:32 PM

42. Untrue. You made a claim, a very specific claim and offered no evidence to support it.

This OP is not making a claim, it is asking a question about a hypothetical scenario;

Can a person who believes god exists, also reject that god/precepts/dogma/demands/allegiance/refuse to worship/etc.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Angry Dragon (Original post)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:43 PM

2. Belief does not require worship, so yes.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Reply #2)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:47 PM

8. well put

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orrex (Reply #2)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 03:51 PM

38. This is a difficult concept to make clear.

Some are stark raving terrified of the idea of knowledge, as if it would deflate 'belief' or 'faith'. No matter how many times the concept is outlined.

Having belief/faith doesn't automatically follow knowing for sure. It's still a choice/effort/investment on the part of the individual.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #38)

Wed Sep 6, 2017, 07:23 AM

39. Exactly correct. Straight out of the bible, in fact!

Adam & Eve certainly believed in God, but they still managed to disobey His will. Therefore it follows that confirmation of a god's existence does not imply obedience to/worship of that god.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Angry Dragon (Original post)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:45 PM

4. Yes

I did that at one point in my life.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Angry Dragon (Original post)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:47 PM

7. Sure.

When I was young, I "believed in God." Then I went through a transition period when I started rejecting that belief, and then I was the atheist I am today. So, I believed in a god and I rejected that god .

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Angry Dragon (Original post)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:50 PM

9. not sure you reject a god without that being simple atheism....

You could certainly believe in a god but not all the same attendant theological niceties.

Christians do this all day, that is why we the differences between mormons, seventh day adventists, catholics and evangelical fundamentalists.

Maybe you should define what it is you are rejecting....

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Thomas Hurt (Reply #9)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 06:08 AM

22. why couldn't one believe that a god or god's exist, observe that those gods are evil, and reject

those gods as worthy for respect and worship?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #22)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 08:58 AM

23. of course you can, humans have been doing that for thousands of years and...

killing each other while doing so. Same thing you are an atheist or unbeliever as to that god.

When you reject the "evil" god are you really rejecting it or are you just competing, your god v. the evil god.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Thomas Hurt (Reply #23)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 09:36 AM

26. This isn't about "your god" and "my god"

The question is whether someone -- raised say, Catholic -- could acknowledge the existence of their God while at the same time concluding that God is a monster unworthy of worship.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Angry Dragon (Original post)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:51 PM

10. Yes. And Yes.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Angry Dragon (Original post)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:52 PM

12. Happened more than once in the Bible and there were consequences.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Angry Dragon (Original post)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:56 PM

15. I think that the Luciferians did exactly that,

at least with the god of Abraham. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luciferianism

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Angry Dragon (Original post)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 08:58 PM

16. Who is it that believes in a god?

Buddhism is nontheistic religion. Actually, it's not really a religion. But leaving that aside, Buddhism believes that ego is non-existent, a fiction generated by mind. So if there is no ego, no "I," who is left to believe in a big babysitter in the sky that watches everyone and judges?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to vlyons (Reply #16)

Mon Sep 4, 2017, 09:06 PM

21. THANK YOU

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Angry Dragon (Original post)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 09:20 AM

24. If somehow the god of the Christian bible was proved to exist...

I would believe in it, but still reject it because of its horrible behavior. Humans are more moral than the god of the bible.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Angry Dragon (Original post)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 09:37 AM

27. Beliefs are not necessarily permanent.

At one time, I believed that Santa Claus existed and was the agent of Christmas gifts. Then, I turned 5 years old and realized that my belief was unjustified. I rejected the entire concept of Santa Claus when I realized that all gifts came from people, primarily my parent.

So, sure.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Angry Dragon (Original post)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 09:46 AM

28. Yes. And there are concrete examples of it.

The Greeks -- with the exception of the Spartans -- were not overly fond of Ares. While it was customary to offer sacrifices to the God of War before battle, this was less a matter of devotion than it was a matter of trying not to piss him off.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Angry Dragon (Original post)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 09:59 AM

29. Could be several answers, but what I think you're getting at is...

like the point made about Ares, one can believe unlikable gods exist.

All of the polytheistic religions have a mix of likable and unlikable, good and bad, gods, so some you will "reject."

Monotheistic religions have just one god, but it is possible to believe the god exists, but reject the teachings. Or even believe that god shouldn't exist.

Kinda like we believe Trump exists, but thoroughly reject him.

Of course, if "believe in a god" means accepting that god, this would be a paradox.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Angry Dragon (Original post)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 10:03 AM

30. If you meet the buddha on the road, kill him

Sounds pretty close to me

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Angry Dragon (Original post)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 10:10 AM

31. I don't know, can a person believe in God and claim to be a Christian then

vote for a pathological liar, admitted sexual predator, racist and dishonest asshole for president?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Angry Dragon (Original post)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 10:15 AM

32. I'm pretty sure the law attributed to William of Ockham suggests any belief in any god is a mistake.

The very notion of god is refuted by Occam's Razor.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to malchickiwick (Reply #32)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 02:39 PM

36. William of Ockham was a Franciscan friar and theologian.

A prime mover in the universe would not, in my opinion, constitute a refutation of his theorem.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Angry Dragon (Original post)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 10:34 AM

33. Here is a theatrical presentation that tackles your very question...













Spoiler Alert:










They find him guilty.


And what did they learn?
They learned ... that Adonai, the Lord our God ... our God ... is not good.
He is not good, he was not ever good, he was only on our side.

God is not good.

Oh, at the beginning when he repented that he had created human beings and flooded the Earth,

Why!?

What had they had done to deserve to be annihilated!?
What could have done to deserve such wholesale slaughter!?
What could they have done that was so bad!?

God is not good.

When he asked Abraham to sacrifice his son, Abraham should have said 'NO!'

We should have taught our God the justice that was in our hearts, we should have stood up to him.

He is not good, he has simply has been strong, he has simply been on our side.

When we were brought here, we were brought in train, a guard slapped my face, on their belts, they had written, "Gott Mit Uns". "God is with us."

Now, who is to say he is not? Perhaps he is, is there any other explanation?

What do we see here? His power ... his majesty, his might. All these things, but turned against us.
He is still God ... but not our God, he has become ... our enemy.

Thatís whatís happened to the covenant, he has made a new covenant with someone else.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Angry Dragon (Original post)

Tue Sep 5, 2017, 02:45 PM

37. With Lucifer as the example?

Lucifer believed in his Creator, but rejected the primacy of the Creator.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Angry Dragon (Original post)

Thu Sep 7, 2017, 03:08 PM

40. I think we often believe in things which we reject.

I think we often believe in things which we reject.

Nations, for example. I believe in the existence of corrupted governments, yet I also reject them as such. I believe the free-market economy exists, I take part in that economy, I profit from, and (like all Americans) controlled to an extent by that economy. Yet I reject it.

This is of course, predicated that "believe in" refers to an presumed state of existence rather than "placing faith in."

Although even with the latter, I could place faith that a chair is both sturdy and comfortable, yet for my own reasons, reject that same chair.

As humans, we can rationalize almost any inconsistency as consistent.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LanternWaste (Reply #40)

Thu Sep 7, 2017, 06:28 PM

43. okay

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread